Karmakula/Ninjai is awful and created by a destructive religious cult
Posted by: Jay Cruise ()
Date: May 29, 2009 03:44AM


Perhaps you would like to talk about the issues with your daughter as personal stories about members and their families are infinitely more valuable than discussing a bogus website.

If anyone had been following this thread, the site mentioned has already been exposed for presenting fabricated information. As previously stated the only verifiable information on the site turned out to be fake. Subsequently it was not removed rather a bogus disclaimer of authenticity was added to the site. There have been countless threats, however NO LAWSUIT has ever been carried out against the individual mentioned in previous posts by either the Science of Identity Foundation, the Australian School of Meditation and Yoga, nor by any organization or business connected with ASMY or SIF directly or indirectly, nor by anyone acting as a representative of any of these businesses or organizations. Neither does the accused have a criminal record, nor are they "in a lot of trouble" with the police, nor do they have any pending charges against them for any of the bogus complaints listed. There is also no order against the individual making any statements about the cult.

Funny that.. did anyone happen to get a different impression from the site?

I'm not sure Rick why you used the comparison with your Landmark Education case as it is clearly not similar. The site account was vandalized, spammed with viagra advertisements (a hallmark SIF tactic) and eventually deleted completely out of the hosts own decision, not through any court order. Why? You'll have to ask MJZ hosting owner Matthew Zacharias that question. If any personal information was given over to the cult it was done by Mr. Zacharias alone, although I'm not aware of this ever occuring and I don't understand why you brought this up.


Behold your merciful gurus SIF:

"It is not that the woman do not like rape... Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Morning Walk May 11, 1975

"So if the wife is not submissive, then, of course, this always increases the chance that she is going to get physically banged." Chris Butler Siddhaswarupananda, Letter to Chaitanya Mission

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2009 03:46AM by Jay Cruise.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Concerns ()
Date: May 29, 2009 11:12PM


Please don't solicit funds for Cara here.

BTW--US Law and federal law in New Jersey protects this message board.

Landmark Education, a much larger and more financially capable organization than Butler, sued this site some time ago.

In the end they dismissed their own lawsuit and never were allowed any confidential information through discovery, i.e. any registration information for anyone posting about them on this message board.

It seems the laws were not in Cara's favor outside the US.

I am sorry if I have broken the rules of the forum by my post, it was not my intention, I am new to all this.

Your point about the Landmark Education lawsuit is an interesting and valuable one. It is reassuring to know that the law protects this message board and our registration information.

I suppose my concern/point is that although the message board is protected by law the individuals posting here are not. This group could still pursue us legally for any post we make that they consider defamatory or libelous IF they were able to identify who we are. Thus the importance of maintaining our anonymity.

Thank you for providing this forum, I look forward to reading and learning from the experience of others posting here.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: May 30, 2009 02:08AM


The only way someone on this board can be identified is either through personal information voluntarily disclosed within their posts and/or private messaging exchanges in which they disclose their name or identifying details.

If you are careful to NOT provide such personal details and/or other information, which would tend to identify you, there is no way the group can find out who you are.

New Jersey federal courts have already ruled against such disclosure being required of any public message board.

Don't allow this group or any group to needlessly concern you regarding their supposed legal threats.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: atheist ()
Date: June 13, 2009 01:33PM

It's been awhile since I've been able to get in. It took me a long time to realize that it is my own firewall that was giving me problems.

I'm back!

In Waikiki, ISKCON has been having sankirtans on Saturday evenings starting around 8:30 PM on Kalakaua Avenue. Also, fairly recently, Scientology has been setting up a table along Kalakaua Avenue on Saturday evenings.

All we need now is one more cult.

So occasionally, Falun Gong has people on Kalakaua Avenue, too, on Saturday evenings.

One recent Saturday, the Scientology table, with their E-meters and "personality tests", and the Falun Gong people were adjacent to each other. Then along came the Hare Krishnas!

The sankirtan involves the Hare Krishnas dressing up in robes and wearing the facepaint, beads and everything and chanting, drumming and playing finger cymbals as they dance up the sidewalk.

On this particular Saturday, the Hare Krishnas positioned themselves between the Scientology table and the Falun Gong for some time.

A woman at the Scientology table looked really tired and bored. I suggested to her that she "might have more fun" if she joined the Krishnas.

I've been trying to work up the courage to ask the Scientologists if the E-meters really detect if a person has "Thetans," as Bill Maher says in "Religulus." If I could get them to admit that the E-meter does this, then I would ask them if they have gotten rid of their own "Thetans" though their expensive courses. If I could get a yes to that, I'd ask them to try the E-meter on themselves.

I'm betting they they wouldn't take the E-meter test themselves.

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excerpts from Guru Papers- the pattern remains the same
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: July 02, 2009 02:05AM

Science of Identity Foundation
Jagad Guru Chris Butler
Science of Identity Foundation Cult

It never ceases to amaze me how the pattern remains the same . . .
What follows is an eloquent description of guru cults ~ which also fits the cult of Butler. My comments relating to Butler specifically are in blue.

Excerpted from:

The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad

The following quotes are taken from Part One of the Guru Papers
and are deemed by ex-members to be strikingly accurate in describing
the dynamics of a cult guru.

“If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without
question, but either punishes or refuses to deal with those who
do not, that authority is authoritarian.” (p.15)

“Gurus can arouse intense emotions as there is extraordinary
passion in surrendering to what one perceives as a living God.” [or the pure representative/ agent of G0d.]

“In spiritual realms fear and desire can become
as extreme as they get.. When a living person becomes the focus
of such emotions, the possibility of manipulation is correspondingly
extreme.” (p.41) [not only the emotions of desire for bliss/perfection/ a perceived spiritual achievement, but also when one puts their total focus of love and passion on to a guru -- the possibility of manipulation is an absolute.]

“In the East a guru is more than a teacher. He is a doorway
that supposedly allows one to enter into a more profound relationship
with the spiritual. A necessary step becomes acknowledging the
gurus specialness and mastery over that which one wishes
to attain. The message is that to be a really serious student,
spiritual realization must be the primary concern. Therefore,
one’s relationship with the guru must, in time, become one’s
prime emotional bond, with all others viewed as secondary
. In
fact, typically other relationships are pejoratively referred
to as attachments
.(p..49) [sound familiar? How many times have the followers of Butler been told this or have been instructed to prioritize their love, service, energy, and money to the PRIME RECIPIENT - Butler!]

“So although most gurus preach detachment, disciples become
attached to having the guru as their center, whereas the guru
becomes attached to having the power of being others center

“The ways people deny and justify are similar: Since
supposedly no one who is not enlightened can truly understand
the motives of one who is, any criticism can be discounted as
a limited perspective
. Also, any behavior on the part of the guru,
no matter how base, can be imputed
to be some secret teaching
or message that needs deciphering.” [Or excused as the undecipherable act of the pure lover of G0d, which no one can understand => that there must be a pure purpose behind it all. In Butler's case, extreme OCD, paranoid, or narcissistic behaviors are easily discounted as being due to the misdeeds of followers or having to take on the karma of diciples.]

By holding gurus as perfect and thus beyond ordinary explanations,
their presumed specialness can be used to justify anything.
deeper, occult reason can always be ascribed to anything a guru
does: The guru is said to take on the karma of others, and that
is why his body has whatever problems it has
. The guru is obese
or unhealthy because he is too kind to turn down offerings: besides,
he gives so much that a little excess is understandable. He punishes
those who disobey him not out of anger but out of necessity, as
a good father would....

He lives an opulent life to break people’s simplistic preconceptions
of what ego-loss should look like; it also shows how detached
and unconcerned he is about what others think. For after all,
Once enlightened, one can do anything. Believing
this dictum makes any action justifiable.” [In Butler's case, his opulent lifestyle is excused in the following way. You are told that it is an austerity for him to accept the offerings of followers to benefit them spiritually. You are told that he does not want or need these things but only does it for your benefit, that he would rather be left alone or go back to Krishna in the spiritual world, but out of his mercy he graciously accepts your gifts. You are told that he is as good as G0d and should be treated like he was G0d, and you are told often enough how far you fall short from this, so you keep trying to give more and better. You are told he is not G0d, only His humble representative, so this paradoxically seems to make it all right . . .]

People justify and rationalize in gurus what in others would
be considered unacceptable because they have a huge emotional
investment in believing their guru is both pure and right

“That interest in one’s own salvation is totally
self-centered is a conundrum rarely explored.
” (p.54)

“So disciples believe they are loved unconditionally, even
though this love is conditional on continued surrender. Disciples
in the throes of surrender feel they have given up their past,
and do not, consciously at least, fear the future. . . Feeling
totally cared for and accepted, at the universe’s center,
powerful, and seemingly unafraid of the future are all achieved
at the price of giving one’s power to another, thus remaining
essentially a child.”

It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship
and not know it. In fact, knowing it can interfere with surrender...

Any of the following are strong indications of belonging to an
authoritarian group:

1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
thoughts or feelings contrary to the accepted perspective is made
to feel wrong or bad for having them

2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right.
Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to
seem different and proper.

3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what’s

4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group.

5. One finds oneself defending actions of the leader (or other
members) without having firsthand knowledge of what occurred.

6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This
is a sign that doubts are being repressed.” (p.57)

“The power of conversion experiences lies in the psychological
shift from confusion to certainty.” (p.65) [Anyone who has experienced an "initiation", a new name, the emotional high of complete and utter acceptance of the guru knows this feeling of certainty. It is a feeling more powerful than anything experienced in one's lifetime. You are in the arms of an UBER PARENT and no longer need to think or wonder if you are doing the right thing in life or not. The security and contentment you feel is fantastic, but it is false. You spend the rest of your time in the cult using your higher cognitive powers of analysis, evaluation, and synthesis to protect this feeling of abusrd certainty that you have all the answers. It robs you of your energy and creativity. It robs you of life lessons and earned wisdom. You remain a child and can not escape it because of an addiction to that initial rush of conversion.]

“People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
(p.66) [Dear people in or exploring this cult, please consider this statement very carefully. Can you really deflect everything cleanly, with absolute certainty or do you need to rationalize away many things you know to be true? or at least once knew to be true? or are you knowingly continuing with the charade?]

“Is experiencing intense energy a sign of spirituality,
or is the experience in the same vein as young ladies who swoon
in the presence of rock stars?” (p.68) [When Siddha was a cute, young buck, the swoon factor was very prevalent with both young ladies as well as with men. Feigning to hate this, Butler wielded this power over people very artfully. Now he has money, power and a well established mythology, along with a strong army of followers willing to propagate his myth, even after his death.

“To be thought enlightened, one must appear not only certain
that one is, but certain about most everything else, too.”

Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When
they do allow discursive inquiry, they often place the highest
value on paradox. Paradox easily lends itself to mental manipulation.
No matter what position you take, you are always shown to be missing
the point; the point being that the guru knows something you do
not.” (p.74)

“Their stance toward outsiders is of benign superiority.”

“As long as the guru still sees the possibility of realizing
his ambitions, the way he exercises power is through rewarding
the enthusiasms of his followers with praise and positions in
his hierarchy.
He also whets and manipulates desire by offering
carrots,and promising that through him the disciples
desires will be realized, possibly even in this lifetime. The
group itself becomes an echo of the guru, with the members filling
each other’s needs
. Within the community there is a sense
of both intimacy and potency, and a celebratory, party-like atmosphere
often reigns. Everything seems perfect; everyone is moving along
the appropriate spiritual path. The guru is relatively accessible,
charming, even fun.
All dreams are realizable-even wonderful possibilities
beyond one’s ken.” (p.78) [When the guru is no longer accessible, the followers take the place of the guru, continue the hierarchy, and propagate the myth through stories and old photographs when the guru was a young man. Followers homes and businesses become guru franchises.]

“People are especially vulnerable to charismatic leaders
during times of crisis or major life change.” (p.87)

“People don’t want a second-rate guru; they want the
one who seems the best.
[How can you beat being the follower of a Jagad Guru,which means Guru of gurus, guru of the whole world, which is what Butler proclaims himself! Their new party line covers this up by saying that "Jagad Guru" only means that he is a "yoga master
whose teachings are relevant to and can be applied in the personal lives of every person—regardless of their ethnicity, nationality, or sect." Don't kid yourself. This is just another smoke screen and lie. He still wants your money, your time, and your adulation. After you have been primed, indoctrinated and found useful you will be told the their real beliefs. All his teachings are only relevant to how you can serve Butler. He has no concern for your material or spiritual welfare whatsoever.]

Since purity is the standard measurement
of the gold or Greenwich meridian time of the guru world
each guru has to claim the most superlative traits. This
is naturally a breeding ground for hypocrisy, lies, and the cultivation
of false images of purity. Gurus are thus forced to assume the
role of the highest, best, the most enlightened, the most loving,
the most selfless, the purest representative of the most profound
truths; for if they did not, people would go to one who does.
Consequently, it is largely impossible for a guru to permit himself
real intimacy, which in adults requires a context of equality..
All his relationships must be hierarchical, since that is the
foundation of his attraction and power
.” (p.88)

Since adulation from any one person eventually becomes
boring, gurus do not need any specific disciple they need
lots of them. Gurus do give special attention to those with wealth
and power
.” (p.89) [In Butler's case, he also seeks out followers with special talents that he needs for his kingdom - such as artistic, musical, interpersonal abilities, etc.]

[Pay close attention to the following statement! Very powerful.]
Gurus likewise do many things to ensure that their disciples
prime emotional allegiance is toward them. In the realm of sexuality,
the two prevalent ways control is exerted are through promulgating
either celibacy or promiscuity
. Although seemingly opposite, both
serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people
bonding deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete
with the guru for attention
.” (p.92)

“Many gurus and spiritual authorities negate, make light
of, or even ridicule the use and value of Western psychotherapy
because its concepts of the unconscious undermine their authority
and power. To acknowledge that unconscious factors may be operative
in oneself means that one cannot be totally sure one is selfless.”

Because of the nature of the relationship which demands total
surrender, gurus . . . cultivate and reward
transference, for a parental type of authority is at the very
core of the gurus power over disciples. The power to name,
arrange marriages, and dictate duties and behavior are ultimates
in parental authority, especially in traditional societies like
the East. To give someone the power to name or marry you is to
profoundly accept their parental role in defining who you are.
The ostensible motivation behind this has to do with an attempt
to break the ties of the past so the person can become new.
A deeper reason is that this aids the guru in becoming the center
of the persons emotional life, which facilitates surrender.”

“Successful gurus, rock stars, charismatic leaders of any
sort, experience the intensity of adulation amplified beyond most
peoples ken. This can make ordinary relationships pale
by comparison. Being the recipient of such adulation and devotion
is exceedingly addictive. Here addiction is used in its loose
sense to mean mechanically needing an on-going fix
of adulation to where it becomes the central focus of one’s
life. Adulation has powerful emotions for the sender as well,
and can be easily mistaken for love. It is likewise addicting
for the sender, as it is an easy route to feelings of passion.
Since adulation is totally a function of image, should the images
crack, adulation disappears, demonstrating that it is essentially
empty of real care
.” (p.112)

[It is my wish that this website help those struggling within this cult and those who have dear ones in its grip to use this information to crack the facade, expose the charade, and see Butler for what he is -- a pathetic attention whore with an addiction to adulation. Nothing more. All nothing.]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2009 02:12AM by Vera City.

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interesting link
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: July 02, 2009 02:33AM

interesting link, although 2 years old but still kicking!
Yahoo answers-

Lanikai cult?
have you guys ever heard of the lanikai cult? it is in lanikai, hawaii

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker

Very little is known about SIF, and I've never seen an ex-member before (and I have met many who are or were Krishna devotees). Let me tell you what I know. What I know is what I've seen, what others have told me, and my feelings and opinions.

I used to live in Hawaii, and I loved going to their health food store Down to Earth (DTE). They have hot vegetarian food there, and very good selection of organic produce. As I was going to their store more and more, however, I would get a distant, "creepy" feeling. I felt that everyone working there was "interconnected" somehow.

SIF Hawaii uses 3 primary methods of contact which some I met have told me about:

1) DTE employees - If you work at Down to Earth, chances are most of your co-workers are followers of Chris Butler. They will supposedly make attempts to recruit you. I've heard the pay is very good there, and that even cult members get paid well. I have some feeling that somehow the money they get paid gets cycled back to SIF, but this is entirely my speculation. If you order an application, it will say you can't attempt to "pick up other employees", and has some sort of restrictions on social interaction.

2) Lifestyle Center - This is the name of the "center" attached to the store. They offer a lot of vegetarian and cooking seminars (this is where your Prabhu das probably wanted you to work). I believe they also try to sneak their brand of meditation in there.

3) Flirtation - SIF has a lot of young people, and many appear attractive. I've spoken to others who went to the store, and some felt there was some odd flirtation going on (happened to me too), although outside contact is forbidden. I've heard they find some kind of delicate balance though, to tantilize young people, yet keep their OWN young people in check (almost all of them live with senior cult members who watch like a hawk).

I don't know what else to say. I know from very reliable sources that their temple is filled with pictures of Chris Butler, and that during their weekly programs on the beach of Bellow's Air Force Base at Waimanelo, senior members close to Butler wear surgical masks, so there could be a Howard Hughs theme going, as well. He is quite paranoid, and does not come out in public. He also has been known to often shout profanities during lectures, something that he doesn't do during his television show "Jagad Guru Speaks". They also emphasize Christianity, and somehow try to equate their brand of worshipping Krishna with some new brand of new age interfaith Christianity.

Science of Identity Foundation (SIF) - Very secretive group that owns a successful chain of health food stores in Hawaii (Rick Ross has an article achived where the health food store fired several employees who weren't Krishna devotees). Deep, severe indoctrination techniques used (I base this on commentary from longtime observers as well as my own distant observation and feelings/opinion toward their strongly apparent rigidity), but since SIF is very low key, very few know about it. One family that has maintained a high position in SIF, the Gabbards, have 3 family members in 3 elected official jobs in Hawaii. They spent an incredible amount (in one case, 4 times the amount their biggest opponents spent) on campaigning. They are also obsessed with denouncing homosexuality. Leader is Chris Butler aka "Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa".

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: July 02, 2009 02:36AM

Hawaii Blog mentions Ross site re Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
again old, but still there. scroll down to comments.

Hawaii Blog

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: July 02, 2009 02:43AM

Question -

does anyone have any insights into why the cult of Butler is targeting such places as Germany, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Russia?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: hoax108 ()
Date: July 04, 2009 08:17AM

Vera City - loved your post regarding "The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power".

Your comments are very apropo. That is why it is impossible to try to reason (or even have a conversation) with any of his followers/disciples. Everything C.B. does and says is explained away and rationalized because he is a pure devotee and we are not.....as is evidenced by this statement:

“People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging

Why is the cult is targeting Poland and other European countries?

I think that ISKCON had a solid "base" in Poland so it was a good place for C.B. to preach. I know that Tusta did a lot of preaching there on a regular basis and was really worshipped by the Polish devotees. So C.B. has a lot of Polish disciples and they carry on his work there and recruit.

The typical pattern - open a Meditation Center - give classes, have gatherings, give lectures, yoga classes, veggie cooking classes etc. etc.

Perhaps it spread from Poland to other Eastern European countries. I met many Polish devotees and they were very nice (and very devout). Maybe the Polish people are very devout in general, I don't know. I do know that Poland suffered horribly during the Second World War so the devoutness of the culture might also be a response to the atrocities that they endured only a few decades ago.

On another note, I heard that a young disciple of C.B. committed suicide recently, apparently from struggles relating to alcohol/drug abuse. How sad!! And he is married to a disciple and they have 2 young children. (I am being a little vague here to maintain my anonymity).

My first thoughts were that maybe if his wife and devotee friends paid a little more attention to him as opposed to being so focused on C.B., they may have been able to intervene.

I had the same thoughts concerning Biharilal. But then who am I to be having such thoughts? God forbid anyone take time out from their service to dear gurudev to try to help a fellow human......

What did Jesus say [I paraphrase], "...those who did not do it for the least of his brothers, did not do it for me.."

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: atheist ()
Date: August 10, 2009 04:42PM

It looks to me like Kathy Hoshijo (Katayani dasi) has had at least three husbands. I know that the cult does not approve of divorce.

The Honolulu Advertiser Walter Wright articles from August 21-23, 1977 say that at that time she was married to "former policeman" Larry Olsen. The Walter Wright articles say that she divorced her first husband to marry Olsen.

I've been able to talk to an early Jagad Guru devotee and he says that when he knew Kathy Hoshijo, she was married to Chris Butler's bud, Tusta Krishna das (David Muncie), now deceased.

A Honolulu Advertiser 03/13/90 article says that she is married to Tim O'Connor and has seven children.

Was she married to Tusta Krishna das? Does any one know what Larry Olsen's Hare Krishna name is? What about Tim O'Connor? Does anyone know his Hare Krishna name?

Here's a quote from [www.harekrsna.org]

Political Members/ Katyayani dasi (Kathy Hoshijo) - Close friend of
Siddhaswarupananda from before he became a guru. Owned food businesses
linked to "Healthy's" (Business branch of SOI) Renowned vegetarian chef
producing TV program and books. Ran for US House of Representatives 1976.
Became a guru and began accepting her own disciples, Siddhaswarupananda
renounced her and stated that she was taking people to hell. Married
Brahmana Tirtha das who supported her independent guru status. Last known
to be in Dana Point California.

Kathy ran for the Hawaii State Senate in 1978 and lost.

I wonder if this "Brahmana Tirtha das" is Tim O'Connor. At the time of the 03/13/90 Honolulu Advertiser article, Kathy and Tim and four of her seven children were living in Laguna Beach, California.

Anyone want to comment?

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