There's a troll on every forum
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 20, 2009 01:12AM
I wrote:
"Just as most soldiers believe bullets will hit only others, not themselves, most citizens like to think that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable. 'Other people can be manipulated, but not me,' they declare." -- Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
"Destructive cults, groups, movements and/or leaders maintain intense allegiance through the arguments of their ideology, and through social and psychological pressures and practices that, intentionally or not, amount to conditioning techniques that constrict attention, limit personal relationships, and devalue reasoning."
-- Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
I have already written about and posted documents showing how people are isolated in Butler's cult and conditioned.
I wrote:
Are mafia wives not similar to cult members? Both (but not all) can be simultaneously victims and complicit in the affairs of the Don. I would argue that when meddling in politics and making public policy based on your religious or cult agenda, that both are very dangerous; whether it is Bush’s “shock and awe” Armageddon visions or Don Butler’s sexual repression and anti-homosexual stance.
I would also argue that regardless of whether his followers in politics can help it or not, they are still responsible for any harm they may do along with Butler. If a parent kidnaps a child away from a non-cult member, that parent is also culpable, along with the cult. If a cult member molests a child, the “Devil made me do it” defense will not hold up in court. Charlie Manson and his followers who executed his orders both went to jail. Hitler’s abusive camp guards were hung. Rick Reed lost an election because he was exposed as being involved in slanderous lies against his opponent at the behest of his Master. Unfortunately, Reed took the fall for Don Butler. These should all be viewed as cautionary tales and deter people from getting involved in anything that looks like, talks like, and walks like a cult. And this is aligned with the mission of Rick Ross’s website.
Alan Tate Wood reflects brilliantly what I have been illustrating in my posts. I have been writing about how Chris Butler set himself up as a divinity and created his own mythology and how followers give up their native understanding of the difference between the absurd and the truth, between right or wrong.
Inside the Head of a New Cult Member
“Phenomenologically speaking, they initiate the "divine history" of the individual [guru], and they reinforce the history and mythology of the group. What is perceived as a flash of illumination and liberation becomes, in fact, the first step in a march toward moral slavery and psychological bondage.
The successfully socialized cult member has entered a world in which submission to authority, blind obedience and conformity have supplanted such "outmoded" notions of character formation as the development of self-reliance, the capacity for critical thinking and the need for openness and compassion in human relationships. Successful indoctrination into a destructive cult results in the repudiation of the individual conscience, rejection of one's critical faculties and the colonization of the imagination understood as a supernatural experience.”
There would be no need of Carl Sagan's “Baloney Detection Kit” if intelligent and educated people were not so easily hypnotized and fooled, and yes, gullible.
"Just as most soldiers believe bullets will hit only others, not themselves, most citizens like to think that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable. 'Other people can be manipulated, but not me,' they declare." -- Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
Sagan lays out much of what was demonstrated in Bill Maher’s questioning in his film Religulous.
Sagan writes:
“Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric [in a debate];
• Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
• Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects [reading into a statement something that is not there.]
• Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack [a common Butler tactic used in his lectures and writings]"
Here are some articles that illustrate how easy it is to manipulate people’s preferences or make them do things they normally would not do:
There's a Sucker Born in Every Medial Prefrontal Cortex
The Sickening Predictability of our Capacity for Evil
Miriam Karmel Feldman sums the debate up nicely and also makes points that I have illustrated with documents and commentary in my posts:
The Mind Control Myth; Is brainwashing all wet? Utne Reader
“But were they brainwashed? Ayella prefers to say they were 'influenced.' She draws on a body of social science literature that theorizes how individuals are affected by authority figures and peer pressure. These theories suggest conditions that are necessary to make individuals vulnerable to the power of social influence:
• A system of strong control over all aspects of group life. Isolation and communal living are particularly effective.
• Deference to a charismatic leader.
• Individual adherence to 'the norm,' particularly when other group members appear to be in total agreement with the leader.
• A visible system of rewards for those who conform and punishment for those who do not.
According to these theories, we are all vulnerable to influence. …
But [does this]… add up to brainwashing? The academics are still debating that question. They may conclude that it is a matter of semantics. Whether Jim Jones actually controlled his followers' minds or whether they were vulnerable to his particular brand of influence and leadership may be debated for some time. But while the verdict is still out, we might consider the idea that we are all subject to influence, in which case the message might be as simple as it is timeworn: Question authority."
Quote
Many ex Butler followers have reported that as time went on, as they chanted more, associated more, delved more into the philosophy, that they began to drop some of their of their old core ethics and understandings to only mirror the gurus. They began to feel that they could no longer value or trust their own thinking, willing or feeling. Most exers recover their old values, but several I know still believe that they can not go on in life without a teacher. Teachers are fine, learning from others is fine -- but when you cross the line and start believing, with no real evidence, that one man is the world's teacher, perfect, and represents a supreme being (or superior alien race) -- know you are in trouble. The damages are many and varied in both intensity and duration… Bill Maher said [in his film Religulous], that "Doubt is humility." Doubt can also save your ass a whole lot of grief! But to doubt yourself, your experience, your own innate wisdom, your own absurdity meters is a different matter. That inner bullshit meter is what is precisely targeted by cults. When someone is telling you that you can't see or know or understand without _________(cult, guru, practice), then be very wary.
"Just as most soldiers believe bullets will hit only others, not themselves, most citizens like to think that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable. 'Other people can be manipulated, but not me,' they declare." -- Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
"Destructive cults, groups, movements and/or leaders maintain intense allegiance through the arguments of their ideology, and through social and psychological pressures and practices that, intentionally or not, amount to conditioning techniques that constrict attention, limit personal relationships, and devalue reasoning."
-- Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
I have already written about and posted documents showing how people are isolated in Butler's cult and conditioned.
I wrote:
Quote
It should not escape anyone reading this that Butler has for many years meddled in politics like a Prabhu Pimp Mullah! His mafia wife candidates have whored themselves to his sexually repressive agenda and anti-gay fatwahs for years!
Are mafia wives not similar to cult members? Both (but not all) can be simultaneously victims and complicit in the affairs of the Don. I would argue that when meddling in politics and making public policy based on your religious or cult agenda, that both are very dangerous; whether it is Bush’s “shock and awe” Armageddon visions or Don Butler’s sexual repression and anti-homosexual stance.
I would also argue that regardless of whether his followers in politics can help it or not, they are still responsible for any harm they may do along with Butler. If a parent kidnaps a child away from a non-cult member, that parent is also culpable, along with the cult. If a cult member molests a child, the “Devil made me do it” defense will not hold up in court. Charlie Manson and his followers who executed his orders both went to jail. Hitler’s abusive camp guards were hung. Rick Reed lost an election because he was exposed as being involved in slanderous lies against his opponent at the behest of his Master. Unfortunately, Reed took the fall for Don Butler. These should all be viewed as cautionary tales and deter people from getting involved in anything that looks like, talks like, and walks like a cult. And this is aligned with the mission of Rick Ross’s website.
Alan Tate Wood reflects brilliantly what I have been illustrating in my posts. I have been writing about how Chris Butler set himself up as a divinity and created his own mythology and how followers give up their native understanding of the difference between the absurd and the truth, between right or wrong.
Inside the Head of a New Cult Member
“Phenomenologically speaking, they initiate the "divine history" of the individual [guru], and they reinforce the history and mythology of the group. What is perceived as a flash of illumination and liberation becomes, in fact, the first step in a march toward moral slavery and psychological bondage.
The successfully socialized cult member has entered a world in which submission to authority, blind obedience and conformity have supplanted such "outmoded" notions of character formation as the development of self-reliance, the capacity for critical thinking and the need for openness and compassion in human relationships. Successful indoctrination into a destructive cult results in the repudiation of the individual conscience, rejection of one's critical faculties and the colonization of the imagination understood as a supernatural experience.”
There would be no need of Carl Sagan's “Baloney Detection Kit” if intelligent and educated people were not so easily hypnotized and fooled, and yes, gullible.
"Just as most soldiers believe bullets will hit only others, not themselves, most citizens like to think that their own minds and thought processes are invulnerable. 'Other people can be manipulated, but not me,' they declare." -- Margaret Singer, Ph.D.
Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit
Sagan lays out much of what was demonstrated in Bill Maher’s questioning in his film Religulous.
Sagan writes:
“Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric [in a debate];
• Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
• Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects [reading into a statement something that is not there.]
• Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack [a common Butler tactic used in his lectures and writings]"
Here are some articles that illustrate how easy it is to manipulate people’s preferences or make them do things they normally would not do:
There's a Sucker Born in Every Medial Prefrontal Cortex
The Sickening Predictability of our Capacity for Evil
Miriam Karmel Feldman sums the debate up nicely and also makes points that I have illustrated with documents and commentary in my posts:
The Mind Control Myth; Is brainwashing all wet? Utne Reader
“But were they brainwashed? Ayella prefers to say they were 'influenced.' She draws on a body of social science literature that theorizes how individuals are affected by authority figures and peer pressure. These theories suggest conditions that are necessary to make individuals vulnerable to the power of social influence:
• A system of strong control over all aspects of group life. Isolation and communal living are particularly effective.
• Deference to a charismatic leader.
• Individual adherence to 'the norm,' particularly when other group members appear to be in total agreement with the leader.
• A visible system of rewards for those who conform and punishment for those who do not.
According to these theories, we are all vulnerable to influence. …
But [does this]… add up to brainwashing? The academics are still debating that question. They may conclude that it is a matter of semantics. Whether Jim Jones actually controlled his followers' minds or whether they were vulnerable to his particular brand of influence and leadership may be debated for some time. But while the verdict is still out, we might consider the idea that we are all subject to influence, in which case the message might be as simple as it is timeworn: Question authority."
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Jay Cruise
()
Date: March 20, 2009 08:05AM
Vera: You've just comfirmed your position that cult members are gullible and willing. A moment ago I was an illiterate cult member for asking you this.
You use poor arguments to show this:
Your article "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute" only shows that advertising works so how much are reading into that Sagan?
The college experiment is a far cry from evidencing that cult members join out of gullibility. This was a role playing experiment. What aspects of this do you see relate to the way SIF recruits members?
Try again.
The Mirriam Feldman quote you posted:
"These theories suggest conditions that are necessary to make individuals vulnerable to the power of social influence."
Why do cults need to use these 'conditions' to 'influence' recruits if they are as gullible as you are suggesting? I have just posted some of the conditions used by SIF for you to discuss.
It is not for you to decide whether ALL Butler followers are 'enablers'. This is the "blame the victim" line of thinking that other members of this thread have held.
You use poor arguments to show this:
Your article "There's A Sucker Born Every Minute" only shows that advertising works so how much are reading into that Sagan?
The college experiment is a far cry from evidencing that cult members join out of gullibility. This was a role playing experiment. What aspects of this do you see relate to the way SIF recruits members?
Try again.
The Mirriam Feldman quote you posted:
"These theories suggest conditions that are necessary to make individuals vulnerable to the power of social influence."
Why do cults need to use these 'conditions' to 'influence' recruits if they are as gullible as you are suggesting? I have just posted some of the conditions used by SIF for you to discuss.
It is not for you to decide whether ALL Butler followers are 'enablers'. This is the "blame the victim" line of thinking that other members of this thread have held.
Troll exposed
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 21, 2009 12:45AM
No, Jason, you have just confirmed your purpose on this thread --- to again disrupt it, get it off topic, and discredit posters.
In case you did not notice, ALL the references were from Rick Ross source material on cults and brainwashing.
Rick Ross articles on Brainwashing
The Sagan quotes reveal the flaws in your own logic, and this is only a partial list:
Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric [in a debate];
• Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
[All of your questions to me have been made, not with an interest in my answer, but rather reveal your prejudice and collateral bias.]
• Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects
[Reading into a statement something that is not there -- excluding statements and facts -- and extrapolating conclusions based on missing points.]
• Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack
[a common Butler tactic used in his lectures and writings. Using phrases like "enablers" and "blame the victim" are simplistic examples of both extrapolation and caricaturing a point of view. A point of view much different than you imply.]
Here is a PRIMER version of my post:
A) Intelligent people are more susceptible to cult influences than we may realize. Hell, we can even be led to believe we like Pepsi over Coke against our will! It doesn't take much to fool, hypnotize, indoctrinate a person to believe they have had a "spiritual" experience or are in front of an "enlightened" being. It doesn't always take torture, long sessions of chanting or lecturing, or even a low protein diet. While aversive techniques are very effective, they are not the only LGAT methods used or even needed.
B) To paraphrase Alan Tate Wood; a successfully indoctrinated cult member supplants his own character development, critical thinking, compassion towards others, and self reliance into blind obedience, conformity, moral slavery and psychological bondage.
C) Because of A and B, cults are dangerous and damage the lives of everyone involved; themselves, their children, their non-cult family members. Followers end up rationalizing their own exploitation, the exploitation of their children, and often become complicit in the crimes and misdeeds of the leader and group. This is the most tragic result. Previously kind, moral, and loving people can turn into blind submissives or brutal zealots.
CONCLUSION: Question Authority.
In case you did not notice, ALL the references were from Rick Ross source material on cults and brainwashing.
Rick Ross articles on Brainwashing
The Sagan quotes reveal the flaws in your own logic, and this is only a partial list:
Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric [in a debate];
• Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
[All of your questions to me have been made, not with an interest in my answer, but rather reveal your prejudice and collateral bias.]
• Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects
[Reading into a statement something that is not there -- excluding statements and facts -- and extrapolating conclusions based on missing points.]
• Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack
[a common Butler tactic used in his lectures and writings. Using phrases like "enablers" and "blame the victim" are simplistic examples of both extrapolation and caricaturing a point of view. A point of view much different than you imply.]
Here is a PRIMER version of my post:
A) Intelligent people are more susceptible to cult influences than we may realize. Hell, we can even be led to believe we like Pepsi over Coke against our will! It doesn't take much to fool, hypnotize, indoctrinate a person to believe they have had a "spiritual" experience or are in front of an "enlightened" being. It doesn't always take torture, long sessions of chanting or lecturing, or even a low protein diet. While aversive techniques are very effective, they are not the only LGAT methods used or even needed.
B) To paraphrase Alan Tate Wood; a successfully indoctrinated cult member supplants his own character development, critical thinking, compassion towards others, and self reliance into blind obedience, conformity, moral slavery and psychological bondage.
C) Because of A and B, cults are dangerous and damage the lives of everyone involved; themselves, their children, their non-cult family members. Followers end up rationalizing their own exploitation, the exploitation of their children, and often become complicit in the crimes and misdeeds of the leader and group. This is the most tragic result. Previously kind, moral, and loving people can turn into blind submissives or brutal zealots.
CONCLUSION: Question Authority.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 21, 2009 04:51AM
It's also important for people to learn how easily they can be duped and not blame themselves.
Newbies can use this knowledge to prevent involvement in a cult in the first place or to help someone who is thinking of joining one.
Exers can use this information to delete every last bit of cultic programing and recover their selves again.
brainwashing
recovery
Newbies can use this knowledge to prevent involvement in a cult in the first place or to help someone who is thinking of joining one.
Exers can use this information to delete every last bit of cultic programing and recover their selves again.
brainwashing
recovery
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 21, 2009 05:21AM
Quote
just-googlingQuote
Vera City
J.C.~ sigh... this is just nutters!
Try reading my posts more carefully, or rather, refrain from reading into my posts things that are not there and stop making false implications about what I write!
Find your straw man somewhere else. She ain't here.
I think I would have to agree with Vera City on this argument...
The movie "Religulus" looks like a hoot and indeed is relevant to this forum... I got a good laugh from the trailer showing the guy talking in tongues... hilarious!
:0)
Thanks googling,
The movie is hysterically funny! I hope it comes up on Hulu or Joost soon so you can see it for free on the internet. The director and Maher commenting on the film in the special features part is also very good.
What's great about the movie is how he questions everyone --- a good example of using your intelligence. Maher states clearly that he is not an atheist.
In one scene Maher goes to that famous park in London where people get on boxes and rant on about any thing - what's the name of that park? --- Anyway, he starts spewing the Scientology mythology about aliens and thetons and e-meters. I laughed my ass off! In another scene he interviews the Raelian guy which is more creepy than funny.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: March 21, 2009 09:46PM
Jay Cruise:
Please stop the flaming and arguing or you will be banned from this message board.
Please stop the flaming and arguing or you will be banned from this message board.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Jay Cruise
()
Date: March 22, 2009 08:34AM
So back to the varnasrama-dharma system. Rape and Child marriages.
Disciples and other followers of AC Bhaktivedanta swami, which includes ISKCON and SIF, condemn the actions of ISKCON members who molested children but argue this was done without the knowledge or consent of Bhaktivedanta. Even former "Children of ISKCON" victims describe Bhaktivedanta as a great man and pure devotee. However many times this pure devotee not only condoned this behavior, it was his order to do so.
In the Teachings of Lord Kapila by Bhaktivedanta it is taught:
It is the duty of the father to protect his daughter until she attains puberty and is married to a suitable young man. The husband then takes care of the wife. Generally a man should marry at around twenty-five years of age, and a girl should marry no later than sixteen.
csulb.edu/~hsouza/vedabase/tlk/5.htm
The irony being that this arrangment is for the child's 'protection'. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, canto four, text 42:
A young woman who has no husband is called anatha, meaning "one who is not protected." As soon as a woman attains the age of puberty, she immediately becomes very much agitated by sexual desire. It is therefore the duty of the father to get his daughter married before she attains puberty. Otherwise she will be very much mortified by not having a husband. Anyone who satisfies her desire for sex at that age becomes a great object of satisfaction. It is a psychological fact that when a woman at the age of puberty meets a man and the man satisfies her sexually, she will love that man for the rest of her life, regardless who he is. Thus so-called love within this material world is nothing but sexual satisfaction.
In this same brief purport he mentions again females not disliking rape:
When a husbandless woman is attacked by an aggressive man, she takes his action to be mercy. A woman is generally very much attracted by a man's long arms.
vedabase.net/sb/4/25/42/en1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is not that the woman do not like rape... Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Morning Walk May 11, 1975
"So if the wife is not submissive, then, of course, this always increases the chance that she is going to get physically banged." Chris Butler Siddhaswarupananda, Letter to Chaitanya Mission
Disciples and other followers of AC Bhaktivedanta swami, which includes ISKCON and SIF, condemn the actions of ISKCON members who molested children but argue this was done without the knowledge or consent of Bhaktivedanta. Even former "Children of ISKCON" victims describe Bhaktivedanta as a great man and pure devotee. However many times this pure devotee not only condoned this behavior, it was his order to do so.
In the Teachings of Lord Kapila by Bhaktivedanta it is taught:
It is the duty of the father to protect his daughter until she attains puberty and is married to a suitable young man. The husband then takes care of the wife. Generally a man should marry at around twenty-five years of age, and a girl should marry no later than sixteen.
csulb.edu/~hsouza/vedabase/tlk/5.htm
The irony being that this arrangment is for the child's 'protection'. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, canto four, text 42:
A young woman who has no husband is called anatha, meaning "one who is not protected." As soon as a woman attains the age of puberty, she immediately becomes very much agitated by sexual desire. It is therefore the duty of the father to get his daughter married before she attains puberty. Otherwise she will be very much mortified by not having a husband. Anyone who satisfies her desire for sex at that age becomes a great object of satisfaction. It is a psychological fact that when a woman at the age of puberty meets a man and the man satisfies her sexually, she will love that man for the rest of her life, regardless who he is. Thus so-called love within this material world is nothing but sexual satisfaction.
In this same brief purport he mentions again females not disliking rape:
When a husbandless woman is attacked by an aggressive man, she takes his action to be mercy. A woman is generally very much attracted by a man's long arms.
vedabase.net/sb/4/25/42/en1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is not that the woman do not like rape... Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Morning Walk May 11, 1975
"So if the wife is not submissive, then, of course, this always increases the chance that she is going to get physically banged." Chris Butler Siddhaswarupananda, Letter to Chaitanya Mission
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: March 22, 2009 11:32AM
On a similar note about “women protection” (as if they are cows) and early marriage reflected in Bhaktivedanta’s writings and Hindu traditions, Deepah Mehta's film WATER is worth mentioning again. Her film is about the practice of putting widows as young a 8 in “ashrams” forced to live loveless lives in poverty. Because of Hindu fundamentalists, she was driven out of India and had to make the film in Sri Lanka.
Wikipedia Article on WATER
These are good trailers that were not available before:
Water clip 1
Water clip 2
Documentary on Water:
Deepah Mehta's comments on WATER and her other films
Before westerners decide to go into another seemingly romantic culture they should listen to the modern voices of Indian women.
Wikipedia Article on WATER
These are good trailers that were not available before:
Water clip 1
Water clip 2
Documentary on Water:
Deepah Mehta's comments on WATER and her other films
Before westerners decide to go into another seemingly romantic culture they should listen to the modern voices of Indian women.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
newagesurvivor
()
Date: March 28, 2009 08:10PM
Quote
Vera City
The movie is hysterically funny! I hope it comes up on Hulu or Joost soon so you can see it for free on the internet.
There's first 30 minutes of Religulous to be seen in Google video. I too am waiting for the whole video.
Religulous first 30 min
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
newagesurvivor
()
Date: March 28, 2009 08:22PM
Sorry, that link went to the trailer. Anyhow, there's 30:53 min Religulous (2008) by Bill Maher to be seen at least in my country in Europe. It's in the list if you can see it in your country.Quote
newagesurvivor
There's first 30 minutes of Religulous to be seen in Google video.
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