Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And not to forget the kids of the so called
> advanced devotees. They get special treatment and
> even they break all regulative principles, they
> are still welcomed.


One person told me a story when a daughter of "one of the advanced" is sick or has a serious problem. A group of devotees organized and went to support this person. You know, empathy, motivation, Samaritan going out of his way. I don't remember whether it was with medicines or money. On the spot, it turned out that the leader's daughter had painted herself and was getting ready to go to the disco ...

> Let us not forget that the cult of personality
> does not only apply to Butler but also to the so
> called advanced devotees.

True.

> After the special advanced devotees, the ones that
> everybody look up to are those who are the most
> surrendered, talented, useful...

Or rich. Dear teddy bears, what is the symptom of attraction or tendency to select a new leader from the group to the council, board, etc. who is organized and rich? According to philosophy - mode of passion ...

That's not satvic, unfortunatelly...

> Meaning those who work day and night on projects.
> It is not so much a spiritual community. At times
> it feels more like Hollywood.

They are so advanced that they may no longer follow Bhagavad Gita - the balance of work and rest. If you remind them, they will tell you that you are doing a wicked thing, because you use the Holy Scriptures in your vile actions ...


> Those kind of connections and who is who is more a
> show business mentality.

True



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2021 02:05AM by Culthusiast.

Butler gave a series of lectures about the mind (you know, like over 40 years ago) and how he read some scientific article about people who lived with no brains and that this was somehow proof that the mind is not the brain (and thereby not the seat of consciousness). I read about these cases of so called "no brainers" and it was total bullshit. The people had brains but their brains were thinned out by cranial fluid, a disorder that actually causes many problems and eventually death. This is the doctor who studied it that Butler references in the lecture: [en.m.wikipedia.org]

Butler and Bhaktivedanta loved conspiracy theories like this because it allowed them to sound intelligent and as if they are well informed about science. The fact that Butler thinks that lining his home interior with tin foil is healthy or remotely normal should be a red flag to any mildly sane follower. No matter what words of so called wisdom he may spew on rare occasion. Definitely not worshippable by any stretch.

These so-called spiritual Masters loved bashing women, black people, science, gays, and other religious groups. They loved denying the holocaust, praising hitler, Claiming the moon landing was a hoax (because the moon is further away and larger than the sun and covered in kusha grass or whatever). They made baseless claims, held unsupported theories and sugar coated their ignorance by peddling feel good tales about the krishna God.

In the leaked video where butler slams homosexuals and suggests that if they stopped fucking each other in the ass then AIDS would stop, one can immediately see the conspiracy theories about AIDS that were propagated in the 80s and 90s. It's almost laughable his lack of knowledge and supposed yoga master status he accepts as a title. His knowledge of yoga or the veda could be reduced to a handful of verses yet he's ready to accept the title of Paramahamsa. The complete lack of humility and blatant arrogance his life represents is indicative of the quality of followers he attracts and maintains. The only thing that he can do to attract people is peddle yoga nidra techniques that have nothing to do with Gaudiya vaishnava practice or teachings.

Butler used fake science and charisma to have his followers virtue signal about all sorts of things while asking them to surrender to him and believe in a blue playboy god who lifted a hill with his pinky to protects his village from the rain god Indra.

Butler thinks it's better for his followers kids to be taught myths as fact and live a life of self deprecation in his schools in the Philippines run by his fanatical devotees than to live with their parents and learn to be a part of society in a meaningful way.

I wonder how many of the devotee parents nowadays would send their kids to a butler gurukula... Probably not one. Even the guys I went to the school with would opt out. The fact is that we live in a time where these types of groups need to increasingly isolate themselves from the rest of the world in order to function. They can't preach without being exposed as hypocrites and uneducated. Butler gave lectures against so many topics while his disciples sat and laughed and mindlessly agreed with him. They never bothered to research what he was talking about, how it was relevant and applicable etc.

Little kids being told their body and mind are not who they are is not just useless to them, but damaging as well. It immediately creates a lie that they tell themselves but holds no water. Their life is spent thinking of themselves as some abstract soul and that thier true "spiritual form" is that of a cowheard maidservant if the amorouse couple, Radha and Krishna. Radha is not even mentioned in all thier scriptures. The original vedas don't even mention krishna. vishnu is a side dirty in most of the 4 original vedas.

Butler devotees don't care to study thier own scriptures let alone follow them. Casteism is a huge component of vedic dharma writings. Even the Gita. And Butler and the like are ultimately enacting a type of brahmanism 2.0. Were they position themselves and a few appointed, select and approved "brahmans" at the top of the hierarchical structure of the group and everybody else is expected to fall in line and perform their duty without attachment. And of course, in practice, this has never been shown to be remotely successful. The proof is in all of the splinter gaudiya vaishnava groups existing today.

Butler always preached that a true spiritual Master should be self-effulgent and self-evident. Yet he has spent a considerable amount of time "protecting" his followers from seeking inspiration and guidance from other groups and teachers. oftentimes to the tune of him losing complete composure, swearing and cursing and freaking out and pouting.

An intelligent take in Gita:

[roundtableindia.co.in]

[roundtableindia.co.in]

[roundtableindia.co.in]

Quote:"It is not so much a spiritual community. At times it feels more like Hollywood.
Those kind of connections and who is who is more a show business mentality."

'Truth Wins'-
It has always been that way: $$ + power. It was never a spiritual movement.
The more $$ you could give to Butler, the better you were treated.

The family of the poor guy who was in a terrible car accident, and whose friends are now asking for donations, will probably never see a dime from Butler.
Interesting that a large portion of the donors have Polish names.
The family name is an American name but the wife is a Polish devotee.
The young husband is in serious condition with severe injuries.

I feel bad for these people, Someone should have told them that their devotional service, for the benefit of Butler, would never include any health insurance.
Very sad.

VoxVeritasVita Das Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Truth Wins'-
> It has always been that way: $$ + power. It was
> never a spiritual movement.
> The more $$ you could give to Butler, the better
> you were treated.

A former member of SIF Poland told me a story about "spiritual hospitality". Once upon a time he was a passenger of another SIF member and on the way they joined one of the initiates, I think generation 1.5, the owner of a small manufacture at the time. Devotee the driver had some business to discuss. Devotee, the Manufactory Owner, saw the passenger. What was the reaction?

In greeting he asked him - "Are you looking for a job?"

You know, Vedic hospitality and openness. Guest at home, cash at home. Because not Slavic or Polish.

The devotee-passenger replied, "Well it depends on how much you pay." The bidder was said to be a bit confused and upset ....

After some time, poetry began to follow the mechanisms and emotions in a phenomenal manner.

In Polish "bhakta nie bhakta licza sie fakta", in translation "A devotee not a devotee count the fact." What was then creatively modified in "A devotee not a devotee count files". "Bhakta nie bhakta licza sie akta".

Another story is when an initiated person, probably the 2.5 generation, noticed some error or mistake and decided to discipline the uninitiated sheep in one of the centers. The person approached and, in a sinister, insidious mood, raised her voice to about 50%, exerting quick pressure, asked "You haven't hear peeing in your heart, huh?" Philosophically speaking, this was to refer to the Supersoul. Unfortunately, the mood of this intervention indicated more that we should expect someone to be Chestburster ...



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2021 07:46PM by DaWatcher.

VoxVeritasVita Das Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting that a large portion of the donors
> have Polish names.
> The family name is an American name but the wife
> is a Polish devotee.
> The young husband is in serious condition with
> severe injuries.

It's good people help. Nevertheless, the past cannot be erased. Especially repressed or not closed with an apology. In Catholicism, there is confession, resolution, penance and satisfaction. Such a standard. In any case, in case of attempts to erase the past or falsify it, we will help not to forget it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2021 07:56PM by DaWatcher.

A.Tibby with his next lecture, i.e. a continuation of the style and depth not going far beyond the hallmarks of impersonalism.

But why this post - hear words and see the gesture:

20:50 - "My friend here - Paramahamsa das". Pitty, no sweet words for Bronco ...

[youtu.be]

One thing that is extremely dangerous in that groups is how abuse is so easily accepted.
In Bhakti Yoga, “chastisement” is seen as a mercy. It is supposed to make one more humble and turn them closer to God.
This is why the Guru and so many angry, manipulative disciples get away with “abuse”.
I understand that in a group we need discipline.
I don’t mind either the times I was justly and correctly disciplined.
Most times chastisement came from a place of anger and control.
Would damage the person rather than help them.
I personally don’t like to blame the path for the actions and spiritual blindness of most so called “devotees”.
I myself have been under that toxic spell and get how others fall into that hole.
We always live in the fear of doing something wrong that will have us expelled or as some affectionately state (to be in the dog house).
So basically it seems as though we are being trained to be mindless, obedient robots. Not so much lovers of God.
The more you want to “serve” and the more you will have to abide by the rules and be under the control of the so called “disciples”.
The spiritual happiness is very often tinged with the fear of saying or doing the wrong thing. It is extremely taxing on the psyche too.
The more you give, the more you will be accepted usually and somehow “admired”.
With time, we get lost in that fake sense of spiritual security.
It quickly becomes a game of who is doing more. It all becomes and “admired”, “respected”.... Just like being a member of the popular crowd in high school.
Those who cannot perform as much are still accepted of course. However the value of those who serve 24/7 is truly higher.
I cannot say that I have just bad experiences. I am grateful for the positive experiences. I must very honestly say that I am grateful for what I got out of it.
I will always miss and respect the good friends and teachers I associated with.
I must also recognize the destruction and damages that being part of that group has caused in my life.
I try to take responsibility for putting up with the non sense for so many years.
But like many other people, I was afraid to lose the security of having a so called spiritual community.
The usual “Beggars can’t be chosers”.
Many people do very well in that community.
The “surrendered” old time disciples and their kids (as well as those who marry into the SOI royalty) have a totally different experience.
Admired and respected no matter where they go. They have immunity from other “devotees”....
If you even walk in the shadow of a so called advanced devotee, you have some protection.
And those who are so “surrendered” that they will never question anything.
Those people also do quite well.
I never thought in a million years that I would be posting in such forums.
I lived with the fear of going to spiritual hell for many years.
“Bhakti” is supposed to be a path of love and devotion.
However it seems as though as fear, emotional/spiritual abuse, ego trips are much more present that the essence of the process.
Many things that go on in that group is not acceptable on a spiritual level.
Some will never see it. Some see it and are afraid to speak up.
If they do speak up, they will be banned forever or for a few years.
As I said it, many do super well in that process. They will never question or feel unhappy.
However I hope that those who know in their hearts that something is way off, find the courage to honor the inner voice.
I know that we will always be a minority as it is very hard to leave a cultish situation. Especially covert ones that are not as bad as a Jim Jones type.
Spiritual, emotional (even physical as many lose sleep and overwork their bodies)abuse is still going on even if SOI is not as bad as such and such organization.
We must do our best to expose it so that it can be somehow rectified or improved.

Hi Truth Wins! Thank you for your continued addition here. It's valuable and facinting for me to see how this group has evolved. Or, not evolved, for that matter.

How do you feel the path contributes positively to those in the cult? You claim that many of those in the cult will never be unhappy. Do you truly believe that? In contrast to any number of other people, religious or otherwise? Are they somehow miraculously exempt in thier afflictions?

Is Butler a prime example of a truly satisfied and happy person? Their community is riddled with divorce, intolerance, judgement and bias. Fear as a driving force is indeed a paramount reason for any adherance to Butlers whims. His own life example is reflective of a man paralysed by fear and a need to control.

I agree that the overall philosophy is and has always been ripe for abuse. And unfortunately that is not something that can ever be controlled for. So in effect, it's less realistic to expect a particular system of spirituality to work for everyone equally, and understand that it ultimately boils down to the individual. But I think that's the general mistake that many of these groups make in proselytizing and going after followers and members. You can look back in vaishnava history and it was never a good idea to initiate a bunch of people in hopes of giving them some sort of absolute knowledge. There is always going to be someone who fouls it up. In many ways, it's also a lack of faith on the part of the practitioner to feel the need to convince others to believe in the same thing they do. If a relationship with God or a teacher is truly a one-on-one unique relationship, then certainly that relationship needs to happen organically and not by force or by trying to convince people about four headed gods and Butler's omniscience. In their eyes, they feel they are doing a great service to humanity by giving everyone some sort of secret knowledge. But as we all know, knowledge in the hands of a nut job can be done right destructive. And you see it timing again in devotee communities. And it's literally impossible to control or fix or get rid of. And in the end, there are abuses and power trips and irrevocable damage. And in the end those who are sincere are often the most disenfranchised because they feel that they are somehow at fault due to some abstract offense or karma.

The other stuff that passes as "happy" is what makes all humans happy: music, comradary, food, friends etc. I can't imagine any devotee can honestly say chanting 16 rounds on beads is pleasant by any means (maybe the real magic starts to happen when you hit the 64 mark? But then again, you can probably say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious a million times and work yourself up into a blissful frenzy eventually). After 1 to 2 rounds you're just kind of robotically banging through it. Same with weekly kirtans or lectures. How many lectures about not being the body can you listen to? Sure, you can sprinkle a joke about homosexuality in there to keep it interesting for your average bigot religious fanatic, but in general the talks get old. Hearing about an elephant headed god or lion headed god is culturally interesting, and perhaps morally instructive as a mythical parable, but it's hardly psychologically captivating. It's comparable to any number of fairy tales in moral density and depth. And because you're dealing with so-called transcendental topics, anything that doesn't make sense, or contradicts, or is downright deplorable can be conveniently stamped with a category of "krishna's plan", or "gurudev said"...

Basically, what keeps people around is that they've become convinced they will suffer for eternity if they question it (there is really no difference between this and just about every religion out there. They even have thier own Heaven where you can frolic with God and his cows for eternity). And why should it not be questioned? Majority of it all is absolutely bonkers with little rationale and justification. Unless, you factor in that they are doing it all and believing it all out of a fear arising from complete religious brainwashing. Only then can you understand it in some realistic context.

But belief or faith aside, there are countless less fear based and naive approaches to a spiritual life, understanding and contemplating ourselves, gods, the universe, mind, consciousness etc that don't rely on mindless ritual, archaic beliefs and fear. Most are accessible in readily available books. Many contemporary texts highlight the symbolic nature of Vedic ideas and contemplate these ideas in a more seriouse and direct way without all the added siliness and baggage and hidden secrets. One of the things valued in any relationship is trust. How are we meant to trust an omniscient being (or guru) that lies, hides, keeps secrets, confuses us and abandons us? Any modern understanding of a religious or spiritual system needs to not only be all inclusive but completely transparent in its final offering and historical evolution. The days of sweeping the past under the rug of time and distraction is over.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing that is extremely dangerous in that
> groups is how abuse is so easily accepted.
> In Bhakti Yoga, “chastisement” is seen as a mercy.
> It is supposed to make one more humble and turn
> them closer to God.

The problem is that according to the tradition / science of the process:

Srila Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Gosvami Maharaja

Quote
Srila Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Gosvami Maharaja
"Guru [bona fide spiritual teacher] maintains a disciple in two ways: through affection and through chastisement (lalana and tadana). Lalana means giving affection and tadana means to discipline or chastise, which is another aspect of affection. If it is one-sided [only giving affection but not chastising], then the affection is not complete – it will only be 50%. When there is only affection, but not chastisement, then in such a case, the affection cannot be deemed complete (pur?a-sneha). So guru will offer both, he will discipline as well as give affection."

(excerpt spoken in Jan. 2014)

It is the so-called chastizement in SIF, especially without direct contact disciples with Guru, e.g. in Poland is a complete mistake.

Given that the leaders were not "transparent mediums", they were not immersed in "pure goodness" and were not particularly familiar with scriptures or traditions.

Instead of the traditional tadan / lalana, it was often humiliating.

In addition, as recalled here, as emphasized by one former member, Mr. Midget gave instructions on where one person would be teaching at the center and another would be disciplining. Thus, the trial at SIF was closer to the classic good-bad cop manipulation. not the traditional Master-Disciple relationship in bhakti-yoga.