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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: September 28, 2020 10:33PM

Culthusiast,
Yiu can see here is a link with pdf of bhaktivedanta notebooks where he lists his d iui disciples names. In the handwritten one Bhalakilya is listed and noted as having been initiated in hawaii. Dig into it, though I'm not sure it matters if he chants gayatri or not. Butler was not giving second diksha in his group. He gave Nam diksha and generally I heard him state that his followers were not worthy of Brahman initiation. Typical hierarchy control trip. Butler also had few temple deities and never followed vedic ceremonies properly anyway, so no need for brahmins.

On that note, bhaktivedanta did not follow proper convention in gaudiya math tradition in naming his sanyassi disciples. When he passed this was revealed by Shridhara swami and some devotees got poroper sanyas titles from him. Needless to say this caused a massive shit storm in the movement. As did the diksha shiksha argument and jiva tattva conundrum. And many other contradictions that totally flew over butlers naive preaching and knowledge of sastra at the time. He had to polish up on his scriptures after having Tusta do much of the heavy lifting there for years. Butler could barely recite the scriptural verse if his life depended on it. It was always kept very surface in terms of his teachings. I think that's why many of his disciples started to leave at some point after having exposure and Association with other teachers. All of a sudden this entire world of knowledge opened up in front of them after being told that they're not their body for years.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: September 28, 2020 11:19PM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Culthusiast,
> Yiu can see here is a link with pdf of
> bhaktivedanta notebooks where he lists his d iui
> disciples names. In the handwritten one Bhalakilya
> is listed and noted as having been initiated in
> hawaii.


Thanks for the suggestion. I found a link that confirms the initiation by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. However, I am waiting for information about brahminical initiation - this topic came up when a deceased and rejected SIF Poland member was accused of being offensive by accepting another initiation from another Guru. Then in 2010, in a public letter linked here, he recalls or suggests that Balakhilya das has brahminical initiation.

[sp.krishna.com]


< Dig into it, though I'm not sure it
> matters if he chants gayatri or not. Butler was
> not giving second diksha in his group. He gave Nam
> diksha and generally I heard him state that his
> followers were not worthy of Brahman initiation.
>

There are students in Poland who have received brahminical initiation. I generally remember 2 people. A woman and a man. Probably there are more. It happened late. I do not remember the year.

Asking about the requirements or conditions of these qualifications. Mental conditions? Or maybe the amount of rounds? There is a devotee from Poland for whom 64 rounds were not a problem. And at the age of over 60, he could chant 4 or 5 days without sleep and only on water. Interestingly, as mentioned here on the forum - he was kicked out of a public lecture when Balakhilya das came to Poland. This is supposed to be an example - according to the scriptures - of a complete sacrifice. Dissatisfied, expelled brahmana ...

But you know, my friends, number one for me is another example of putting pressure on Srila Narayana Maharaj's community after the leader's departure from the Philippines to His sanga and association.

I really wonder how it was in Hawaii that the Vaisnava etiquette was followed, in those Hawaii where everyone is already pure devotess and perfect. And this is what in the case of the leader's departure from the Philippines, the observance of the Vaisnava etiquette is that Srila Narayana Maharaja's sangha is bombarded with emails from various people, including a 12-year sentenced (and apparently busted twice) marijuana dealer - from the global network. Then they had enthusiasm ...

> As did the diksha shiksha argument and jiva tattva
> conundrum.

It's good that you have touched upon changes or reformations in tradition. Still respecting the tradition, I think it is worth reminding not to be a tool of enslavement.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2020 11:29PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 29, 2020 04:37AM

You said there's a devotee who could go 5 days without sleep chanting rounds...abs water only?

He could be putting his health at risk.

The Haunting Effect of Going Days Without Sleep

[www.npr.org]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: September 29, 2020 05:05AM

Believe me, the human brain can be completely rewired to get High off of repetitively chanting and restricting calories. It can almost have a crack cocaine type of effect. You should try it sometime. There's nothing transcendental about it. It's just science and chemistry. We used to fast 24 hours on nirjal ekadasi (no water or food) at 10 to 16 years of age and regularly on other fasting and celebration days. I remember falling asleep on the altar and getting the shakes from low blood sugar. To this day my nervous system is shot from years of peeling out of bed at 4 am taking cold showers for krishna.

Ask your average butler follower what ekadasi is and they'll tell you some bullshit Theory all about planets aligning and demons taking shelter in grains every 11 days after a full moon or some such mind garbage. My entire youth was completely wasted with filling my brain with useless and troubling information like this. A whole new generation of kids is now growing up doing the same thing. The force is strong with this one.

What I find interesting is that the poor fellow being described got kicked out. Bhalakilya has probably never changed a full 16 rounds let alone 64 or 108...

And the scenario of devotees getting ostracized for seeking diksha or shiksha from other living gurus (especially considering that Butler is completely inaccessible) is atrocious and against all gaudiya vaishnava tenants and ethics. Butler would have regularly reject disciples that has found inspiration another groups her teachers. He was extremely jealous.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: September 29, 2020 06:23AM

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He could be putting his health at risk.

Already is. However some devotees help the man. Some people kick him out of the lecture because he brought bundles and he was bluff (right word; and you could treat him in accordance with etiquette and with love or friendliness). And others feed regularly and stay in the shade. Therefore, I no longer believe this falsehood. Empty balderdash "there is life on other planets" scientifically, observations and statistics - probably (still with respect to Vedas). But something doesn't seem like the best sect in the world has love (any sect is the best anyway).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2020 06:42AM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: September 29, 2020 06:41AM

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Believe me, the human brain can be completely
> rewired to get High off of repetitively chanting
> and restricting calories. It can almost have a
> crack cocaine type of effect. You should try it
> sometime. There's nothing transcendental about it.

True, there are various phenomena related to the human psyche. Singing together has a good therapeutic or social impact as you used to emphasize. Croats are at the fore in this:

[www.youtube.com]

> It's just science and chemistry. We used to fast
> 24 hours on nirjal ekadasi (no water or food) at
> 10 to 16 years of age and regularly on other
> fasting and celebration days. I remember falling
> asleep on the altar and getting the shakes from
> low blood sugar. To this day my nervous system is
> shot from years of peeling out of bed at 4 am
> taking cold showers for krishna.

Additionally, you were electrified with a taser and viraled by a sexually maturing prince. Generally, the description of this getting up, cold water and inconvenience is understandable - in one of the centers in Poland, men also had similar conditions for some time. And even the water heater had electric breakdowns too. But you were children separated from your parents so I understand you very well about your experiences, trauma and nerves. When I heard about sending children to the Philippines (different bacterial flora, different diet, climate, no language, medical care), a red lamp was lit in response to these "light" suggestions. Thanks to you, Ian, I know I was right.

>
> Ask your average butler follower what ekadasi is
> and they'll tell you some bullshit Theory all
> about planets aligning and demons taking shelter
> in grains every 11 days after a full moon or some
> such mind garbage. My entire youth was completely
> wasted with filling my brain with useless and
> troubling information like this. A whole new
> generation of kids is now growing up doing the
> same thing. The force is strong with this one.

As for Ekadasi, other sangas follow them with much more orthodoxy.

But as for the planetary cycles and the impact on the Earth, it is generally scientific or by observation to be confirmed. The menstrual cycle related to the lunar cycle, sleep coupled with the rotation of the earth. Simple astrology can be explained by tissue stress - if insemination occurs in January, the fetus experiences the seasons in a different order in a different month of pregnancy. And the planetary systems in general are synchronized. To what extent such phenomena have been reduced and described in a mythological way is another matter. But also in general with other stars - photons reach us, quite a large series can be amplified by a coupled brain.

>
> What I find interesting is that the poor fellow
> being described got kicked out. Bhalakilya has
> probably never changed a full 16 rounds let alone
> 64 or 108...

They met that day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2020 06:45AM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: September 30, 2020 04:39AM

I must say I like this stuff. It kicks really hard:

[www.honolulumagazine.com]


Quote

Then again, it could be he doesn’t want to answer questions he doesn’t like, especially those concerning his ties to a Hare Krishna splinter group that gave rise to a number of political candidates over the past 30 years.

"Do not go to a dark forest"

Quote

Butler eventually broke away from ISKCON, criticizing the regimen and centralization of ISKCON life. He formed his own organization, which has had several names: Hare Name Society, Identity Institute and the Science of Identity Foundation. What started as a small religious sect on Maui in the 1970s developed a following that, according to some estimates, includes tens of thousands of people all over the world.

Hare Name Society?

Quote

Many of Butler’s associates made headlines in the 1976 election when they created a party called Independents for Godly Government. As its name implied, the group insisted on rigorous moral standards for its candidates.

I would rather say, that first it's all about independence ...

Well, how to explain 5 wives of Rick Reed, his Polish challenger Damodar das and other cases (because people like to write ...). How to explain farm bought of Maryjane cash or the bus etc....Really impressed.

And then someone dared to come to Poland to tell people about God, where 6 million citizens were murdered by Nazi and Stalinist terror (well - who gave Hitler money) and lived in poverty and humility for decades, raised grandchildren who worked hard and rarely that took on drugs. .. II world war soldiers who cut dry skins of bread into tiny pieces and gave them to the birds, because everything that lives is from God and they must eat and nothing can be wasted.

Tulsi's worldly peace proposal - you know the destination for it...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2020 04:50AM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: September 30, 2020 10:21AM

The road to hell is built with good intentions. The main thing that I hope for anyone coming across this forum is that they realize that no matter what guru they follow or how profound the philosophy sounds at face value you need to study it and ask many questions and entertain any doubts. Faith is a powerful tool. But it is a tool. It is something that needs to be maintained and kept Sharp and adjusted accordingly for the task at hand.

If at any point you are asking a question or entertaining a doubt that is met with derogatory hostility or attempt to make you feel that you are somehow inpure or not qualified to understand, take this as a red flag. Butler built his entire organization on people simply following out of fear of some sort of consequence stipulated by either Butler or some kind of scriptural text.

If spiritual life is meant to get to the heart of the experience we are all having, then it must be approached with caution and extreme discrimination and discernment. To Simply state that something is Transcendental or profound because of how ancient it is or how good it makes you feel for some time then that is not a measure of its absolute value. It may have some value. It may give some insight, but it is not Beyond being questioned. The butler group in my opinion has way too many red flags to be considered an authentic and reason oriented path. There is way too many things mentioned on this forum and in many other places that one can deduce that there's something fishy going gone. It cannot always be that doubt arises in a practitioner abstractly or due to some failing on the parts of the practitioner. Sometimes, if not more often, it has to do with the teacher and the process. Logic and history dictates that we cannot hang your coat up on a single personality to answer all of life's questions. We are always told in this tradition that the teachers are selfeffulgent. That everything leading up to their pure state happens in some magical moments. Butler was always touted as having been a realized soul from the very beginning. But anybody who mildly inspects his life history and trajectory as a spiritual teacher will find many instances and examples were that has not been the case. Butler was a drug abusing Surfer prior to making a leap to Guruhood. Bhaktivedanta Swami was a simple chemist born in a very traditional Hindu family prior to becoming self realized. Bhaktisiddhanta was raised in a highly polarized fanatical religious environment (his brother completely rejected his guruship). Gaurakishor was a reclusive renunciate who barely spoke or initiated any followers. Before that he was a simple businessman. Going all the way back through the lineage you can see plainly that many of the stalwart teachers in this tradition came from very politicized environments and backgrounds. Either extremely fanatically religious, brahmins, or social outcasts. Other than bhaktivedanta Swami, none of these people attained any sort of meaningful social notoriety or influence. And even bhaktivedanta Swami's influence was largely because of major social disruption during the hippie movement where everybody was looking for some sort of answer to the social conundrums of the time.

Every being born on this planet is a subjective product of their environment. And as spiritual Seekers, we have the right to question and get to the bottom of what influenced various people and what resulted in them proposing that their specific teachings or philosophy are of an absolute nature. Gone are the simple days where people had no access to information and simply accepted the dictate of their family or social class.

Faith in a higher reality is a byproduct of the Human Experience (we crave meaning to our reality). And as a general rule, I don't think there is any harm in believing in a higher power or feeling that there is something more to life then simple sense gratification and mundane Pursuits. However, as soon as Faith transforms to Dogma and religious fervor, it begs the question how much of that is real and how much of it is based on simple human mechanics, chemicals, social structures and so forth.

We can claim that we are not the body or that there is more than meets the eye, but a lot of these states of Consciousness are realized through a very precise meditative practices. To observe consciousness and become aware of mental streams takes decades. The average person will never experience such a realization. So for most practitioners of bhakti yoga, they simply take it at face value, before they have ever even remotely ventured to explore any serious and consistent meditative practice. Essentially, it's Superfluous information to be average person to walk around feeling like they are not the body.

Gaudiya vaishnavism stipulates that we probably cannot even achieve such a state of self-realization in this current age. So the prescribed method of self-realization becomes chanting of mantras. But if you take a moment, you will realize that it's quite a drastic leap of faith. From actually meditating and doing a consistent practice, to Simply accepting that a series of names of some god mentioned in a few puranas is meant to alleviate The Human Condition and Enlighten us somehow. Basically, the requisite of asking people to chant a specific mantra to yield all the benefits of meditation becomes a lazy man's quicksell to a population that would rather not do the work to find out if something is true or false. Instead, like many traditions, they feed off the social Vibe and chant themselves into a energetic Frenzy that substitutes the real experience of meditation ( all while abstractly trusting it's doing some magic behind the scenes). This then gets conveniently packaged into the idea that in this horrible chaotic age (as if life was better for humans millions of years ago) this is the only way for Spiritual advancement. The end result is a process that hardly asks of us any rigor in our approach to spiritual understanding. So you are left with a bunch of practitioners who are blindly circumambulating a plant, worshipping some deity statue or Guru or following the dictates of a particular scripture without ever once actually doing the work. Because they have been told that the only work they have to do is to chant and serve. Somehow magically we are meant to believe that the mantra that is barely mentioned in The Vedic scriptures at all, is all-powerful and able to elevate our Consciousness and give us a spiritual experience. I propose this is disingenuous and false. Simply because there are many scientific ways to explain the addiction that one may experience to repetitive chanting and wholesome communal experiences.

Yes, it is fine if many people get off on such mindless following, but it should never deter them or make them feel less than for asking questions or wanting to know more. And often times that is exactly what happens.

When Butler devotees go off to try to find inspiration in other groups, they are severely ostracized and chastised. When there are glaring concerns about how Butler operates his group, those are never met with compassion or tranquility. Instead, most are left just floundering for many years wondering what the hell went wrong. And the only explanation they get is that they did not have enough faith. Hence, The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: IanKoviak ()
Date: September 30, 2020 11:41AM

A good read along the lines of the butler delusion he sells: [www.psychologytoday.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: October 01, 2020 03:08AM

awwww...they forgot po' little Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa.


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