Sparrow and Dorje

The entire CH Tibetan Bagua Zhang rigmarole was quite bizarre and I really wasn’t prepared for the intensity of whole setup. I did not know what to expect when I started training – this was in early 1990. CH told me his story - the account everyone knows - that he had been chosen on a beach in NZ by a Tibetan teacher who had passed on his teachings to him. He explained that the art was from Tibet and it was a distant precursor to the Taoist art popularised by Chinese masters much later.

I have no idea whether the Bagua Zhang CH taught was genuine or not. Naturally when I began training I had no suspicions or misgivings – as far as I was concerned it was a great opportunity. At the outset, the Tibetan ingredients merely gave it added cachet. If his story is true about his Tibetan teacher then it’s possible CH would have learned such a fighting art, had his teacher been adept at the style. It’s only in the context of this debate about CH’s overall authenticity that I stood back to size it all up and look at it from a totally different angle. Hence my comments about the doubts regarding CH’s fighting ability from that Taichi student I mentioned above.

This suggestion of an antediluvian form of Bagua Zhang is of course appealing. Bagua Zhang in itself is clearly very old, as you say, Sparrow. Its system of walking on the circle has shaman overtones; it’s primitive and elemental and its circular shape represents all manner of natural objects, from the sun to the moon to the earth, the orbits of the planets and the suggestion of infinity. You can see how it may also have evolved from a dance – so the concept of contemporary Chinese Bagua Zhang having its roots in Tibet isn’t so wild (even though I can see Chinese martial artists resisting that).

As my knowledge of martial arts was quite basic when I trained with CH, I was not in a position to question the origins of his art or his level of skill. I took it all pretty much at face value. Looking at it critically and assuming CH is bogus, Bagua Zhang would be the art to select. Taichi prowess would be far harder to fake – you are either good at push hands or not and there’s no real fast-track to skill there. It would also be tricky to cook up a new style of Taichi and show off a convincing family tree describing how it arrived at the teacher. Bagua Zhang – certainly at that time – was more of an unknown quantity and there isn’t one particular demonstration that can be performed to reveal high ability. Robert Smith’s book was of course available, but there was scant alternative literature on Bagua Zhang at the time. There also wasn’t one recognised school of Bagua Zhang; instead there many lineages with the usual amount of squabbling going on for legitimacy.

A fake and totally independent style of Bagua Zhang would be perhaps an ingenious shortcut to recognition. Even better to infuse it will esoteric magic, supernatural happenings, an array of psychic weapons and an obscure lineage. Flexibility or athleticism is not a prerequisite to skill in the art. It is obscure enough to leave your average onlooker flummoxed rather than amazed or wowed. While I was training, CH only referred to it as Bagua Zhang, rather than Lung Ta, but it was exclusively Tibetan in culture. This would also be handy as Tibet was, and still is, little understood by Westerners. Very few Westerners speak Tibetan well except perhaps for the occasional SOAS academic; many more for example speak Mandarin. I remember asking CH that I presumed he spoke Tibetan and receiving a kind of affirmation that he did, but I seemed to sense a certain reservation in his answer.

On another occasion CH arrived one morning wearing a blue jersey with (I think) the words ‘Allround’ or ‘All Round’ on it in white lettering. I asked him what this meant and a fellow student standing beside me said it was a martial arts competition that CH had taken part in. I then asked CH: ‘How did you do?’ and the student answered for CH, replying ‘He won it, of course.’ CH could well have won the competition, but it was interesting to note it was another student who made the observation rather than CH himself.

To infer from this that CH was a bogus practitioner is mere idle speculation on my part and I wouldn’t have reached any of these conclusions without the purpose of this thread: I have to say I saw nothing to suggest fraudulence in CH or his Bagua Zhang. At the beginning I was very excited to be training in Bagua Zhang; after a while the slowness of progress in the training and the growing sense that things were getting pretty weird was enough to raise question marks and dull my appetite. There was though this powerful sense that this Bagua Zhang came with a view of the world that needed to be adopted wholesale. It wasn’t like studying Taekwando where you can incorporate your training into your life and just get on with it; it appeared to be the other way round: Bagua Zhang was a detail in a very alien worldview that had to be taken on board. I remember one student from a Christian background finding the contradictions with his upbringing very difficult to reconcile. If I had stayed with the training, I am certain this aspect of the art would have only become stronger and more pronounced.

Sparrow - I didn’t have any particularly intense psychic experiences myself, although others did. But I was spooked out. It was partly having to get up at 4.30am to start training at 5am in these circular patterns so I could finish by 9am: it was still pitch dark when I started training outside and I often suffered from insomnia, so it was easy to get a bit freaked out – especially considering the nature of the art.

I remember the word CH used for energy or magic was drala (not sure of the spelling, that’s how it sounded) and there were standing qigong forms for the circulation of this force around the body.

Dorje - I don't ever remember consuming anything from CH before or during training so I don't think drugs were involved. I think it was more to do with group psychology and a common faultline (credulity) running through it.

I remember CH was the director of a company at the time, but I cannot remember the name of it.

I would be fascinated to establish whether anything like this art is practised in Tibet. If there is nothing in the least bit resembling CH’s Bagua Zhang (or Lung Ta) in Tibet, it would be unlikely CH was the last genuine recipient of an almost-vanished art. I guess I myself have a vested interest in establishing the authenticity (or not) of CH's story as I invested time and effort in something that I accepted on trust. But I did not suffer in the way that many people on this thread describe and it is their accusations that are the most shocking.

Hi Autumn,

Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

I have no doubt having read the entire of this thread that CH is a fraud. However it is my personal belief that he also has psychic ability. This actually makes him more reprehensible as most spiritual systems take the view that if you have done some sort of training to the point where you gain some power "siddhis" etc then to abuse that and use it for gain etc is to condemn yourself to many lifetimes in a very bad place!

It may be that CH is just naturally psychic and then concocted the bizarre Tibetan myth as a way to explain this and gain false credibility. It may be he has practiced some unsavoury practice that has given him transient abilities. (something like "New Kedampa" for example)

The Ba Gua stuff I find very interesting. It would be possible to read a book and do a lot of practice and then fool complete beginners. However the well known martial artist I mentioned before was not a beginner. This guy was allready a high level, experinced martial artist. Martial ability is not necessarily an indicator of overall ability with Ba Gua.

The purpose of the spiritual aspect of Ba Gua is to walk the circle in such a way that it activates the rising current of chi which clears the central channel (similar to Kundalini practices) by using the palm changes you are effectively becomming a living representation of the changing energy states mapped out in the I-Ching.

Circle walking has been used by many cultures for this reason. The circle dances of native American Indians, the Sufi whirling dervishes, the pagan "curcummambulations" etc.

To get the very complex Nei Gung and allignments necessary to get Ba Gua to work as a genuine internal art takes a very long time (some would suggest 20-30 years) many Ba Gua fighters are really practising it as an external art and mixing it with elements from Tai Chi and Hsing I etc.

I just feel that there's no way CH would be able to fake that with such an experienced individual. You could maybe fake the external appearance of a palm change but there's no way you could "transmit" that to students to the point where they start having psychic experiences without getting a lot of the "internal" stuff right. You couldn't learn that from a book.

I am not trying to give CH any credability as I am sure his story of where this came from is as bogus as everything else he has said. I would be very interested to hear where it really came from though.

Ba Gua does have the equivalent of push hands. It's called "Rou Shou" and again you are right you can't fake that either. You would need to have established a moving root to be able to pull that off. Physical strength would not work to fake that.

If you discover anything else do let us know. And thanks again!

Hi Sparrow,

Thanks for that. I was happy to communicate what little I had just so I could at least contribute as someone who once knew Chris Hansard; I am sorry my input into this debate is not substantial. I hope others who know or knew CH will also contribute. Then a more well-defined picture of this person can be arrived at.

I have not read this entire thread but it is quite evident that most posters believe CH to be a fraud. I hope you understand that I am coming at this from the angle of someone who knew CH and trained with him but had no bad experiences.

However I have to re-examine everything in the light of this thread. CH may have psychic ability as you propose, but I never saw anything – looking back on things – that suggests he had any such skill. Certainly in the context of the information on this thread, everything I saw could be explained by group psychology and gullibility, both powerful forces in their own right. In my experience credulousness and faith is a common cornerstone of many soft martial arts: this is likely to be more pronounced if the focus of the art is in the esoteric. Credulousness is also of course an essential part of CH’s success at establishing himself as a healer. The same credulousness can also generate fear and anxiety at confronting the possible truth about CH and that is perhaps why so many people who knew CH have not come forward.

If CH’s Tibetan story is a myth then his Tibetan Bagua Zhang must be part of that myth. It’s not likely to be genuine if the rest of his story is an elaborate fake. Conveniently there are no other contemporary exponents of this style of Bagua Zhang and no documented histories of the style. CH could have picked up some Bagua Zhang and improvised: this is entirely possible. I do not know.

It’s worth noting that all of CH’s students had only limited martial knowledge, apart from the more experienced student we refer to. CH’s students were, in the main, not experienced. And the more experienced student himself moved on; that was perhaps in recognition of the limits of what he was learning. I don’t know – but I can’t find much reference to CH’s Bagua Zhang online and that suggests few people learned from CH. In fact using google this is perhaps the lengthiest discussion of the topic online so far. I am not sure how long he taught this style after I left and to how many people and if and when he stopped teaching.

I don't think that psychic ability would necessarily mean CH could do Bagua Zhang well. As a martial art the style requires physical understanding of the art, a feel for movement, coordination and dexterity, all these things – even if a psychic understanding of the art was well-developed.

The Taichi student I mentioned previously who doubted CH’s ability did point to a specific incident. And while I agree Bagua Zhang exponents may not excel at ground-fighting techniques, one would try one’s best never to end up on the ground and be put at such a disadvantage.

I kind of turned my back on Bagua Zhang after training with CH so lost touch with it but I am not surprised to hear that Bagua Zhang has a form of push hands. I would guess it would have been a Chinese Taichi import however. As so many Taichi teachers in China also trained in Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan, there was quite a bit of two-way traffic. But I never saw it being practised in CH’s group and if as CH claimed the style preceded Chinese variants, rou shou would not necessarily have been in his syllabus.

Hi folks...ben a while. What do you make of this?
Sara's space - [saraldeo89603.spaces.live.com]
Almost incomprehensible. Looks like it has been Google translated.

Hi All,

Just for your information, I placed Chris Hansard on my website [www.viewonbuddhism.org] under controversial people and groups. And guess what, today I received an aggressive mail from [www.websheriff.com]. I have never ever read such an open and gross threat to my freedom of speech on the internet. They threaten to take my site down just because there is a link to this thread.
This is the text of the email from SL@websheriff.com:
---

Please be advised that Web Sheriff represents Christopher Hansard in relation to the above matter, as his on-line, intellectual property, rights agents.

It has been brought to our said principal’s / client’s attention that your blog (situated at [www.viewonbuddhism.org] and hereinafter referred to as the “Infringing Site”) has published posts headlined ‘A View On Buddhism’ that contains a link to highly defamatory material (hereinafter referred to as the “Infringing Post”). Whilst our client reserves his position as regards the aforementioned material generally, the Infringing Post is both untrue and a gross distortion and, moreover, are not only libellous of Mr. Hansard, but also potentially constitute malicious falsehoods injurious his business interests: as such, the Infringing Site and, equally, all of its directors, officers and administrators are liable to our client in damages.

That having been said, we would invite you to simply remove the Infringing Post immediately, whereupon our client would consider not pursuing his claims further. Should you fail to immediately remove the Infringing Post, however, (a) Web Sheriff shall be obliged to take direct action to have your web-site taken off line and (b) our client’s litigation attorneys, solicitors and advocats shall also be obliged to take all necessary action (via the Courts and on a multi-jurisdictional basis) to seek legal redress for our client in this matter.

In view of the very serious nature of this matter, we must insist that you revert to us by return / overnight, with confirmation of the above request (or otherwise – as applicable). In this regard, we must also insist upon separate confirmation from all other owners, officers and admins of the Infringing Site as, clearly, there would be a conflict-of-interest between you should this matter proceed to litigation / enforcement and damages actions in the Courts. Similarly, should you / your colleagues be unwilling or otherwise unable to comply with our, in the circumstances, very reasonable request, we must ask that each owner, officer and admin of the Infringing Site provide us - by return - with the names and addresses of the (again separate) US attorneys, UK solicitors, French advocats and German advocats whom you respectively intend to instruct in relation to this matter, for the purposes of accepting the service of the proceedings that our client’s appointed litigation attorneys, solicitors and advocats would issue against - inter alia – the Infringing Site and its owners, officers and admins on behalf of our client in such an event. Naturally, however, we trust that such a course of action shall not prove to be necessary and that common-sense (on your part) shall prevail.

Whilst writing, we would strongly advise you against communicating or otherwise 'posting' any correspondence and / or remarks to third parties that could, in any way, be construed as being defamatory of our client or which could otherwise constitute malicious falsehoods injurious to our client’s business interests. We would further advise you that this e-mail / communication is both confidential, without prejudice (save as to Court costs) and the copyright of Web Sheriff and that, accordingly, any publication and / or communication to third parties (other than, of course, your legal representatives) is prohibited and would be actionable: furthermore and for the avoidance of doubt, Web Sheriff cannot be held liable for the consequences of the publication and / or communication of this e-mail to third parties in circumstances where such publication and / or communication originated from you and / or parties acting in unison with you.

As you will appreciate, this e-mail – containing, as it does, a position that is potentially prejudicial to our client’s open / formal position – is written on a without prejudice basis (again save as to costs) and, as such, all of our client’s accumulated, worldwide rights and civil and criminal remedies – including, but not limited to, the right to apply for injunctive relief, damages, costs and interest on a multi-jurisdictional basis, the right to cite further infringements by you, the right to subpoena all historical records relating to the Infringing Site and the Infringing Post and the right to report your activities to the appropriate, regulatory and Federal authorities (all as applicable), together with the right to join and / or institute proceedings against your ISP and your domain maintainer for, inter alia, knowingly hosting the Infringing Site and the Infringing Post respectively - are hereby strictly reserved : please excuse this required formality which, hopefully, we shall soon be able to dispense with.

Once again, we shall look forward to hearing from you by return / overnight and, in all of the circumstances, trust that you shall comply with this request.

Yours Faithfully,

WEB SHERIFF
---

I don't know Chris Hansard, but if he resorts to such gross gun-slingers, it only seems to justify his placement on my website as a controversial teacher.

Love & clear light,
Rudy

Hello Rudy,
I searched your site as best I could, but did not find the reference to CH that you mention. I checked Web Sherriff..hmmmm. IMHO-- it would be almost impossible to legally enforce anything they mention, but I admit to a cursory scan rather than an in depth survey. IMHO (again) if Hansard had a case against individuals who have posted on this site, he would have sued by now. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
A request -- please can you make your Controversial Groups section easier to find? And BTW I hope you include Rigpa and Sogyal Lakar aka Rinpoche in this category.

[www.spokesmanreview.com]

Hi Dakini & Dorje,

I'm not worried about web-sheriff at all, what can they do against a site that merely links to this forum? If anything, they should try to take down this forum, but of course we don't live in China, so they cannot simply dump our freedom of speech. I just think it proves the point about Mr. Hansard being a gross bully rather then a qualified and impeccable spiritual teacher...

If you cannot find the page on my website, it is listed in the left menu under 'Resources' and 'Controversy', the direct link is http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/controversy-controversial-teacher-group-center-questionable.html

Love & clear light,
Rudy

A certain somebody who shall remain nameless for fear of hurting his feelings and adding to his paranoia about cyberstalking now proclaims membership of the following organisations:

The Royal Society of Medicine
The United Kingdom Association of Humanistic Psychology Practitioners
The Worshipful Society of Apothecaries of London (Faculty of Crisis and Catastrophe Medicine)
The United Kingdom Psychological Trauma Society
The European Society for Traumatic Stress Studies
The International Society of Traumatic Stress Studies
The Association of Traumatic Stress Specialists
Association for Contextual Behavioural Science
The Traumatic Incident Reduction Association
The International Society for Mental Health Online
The Association for Death Education and Counseling

Anyone seeking a fast-track into ‘therapy practice’ and the appearance of legitimacy would do well do follow this route. It really doesn’t require much training to appear so grand.

I cannot comment of the effectiveness of the ‘trauma skills’ involved but I can see some benefit to potential clients.

In the code of ethics of The Traumatic Incident Reduction Association (http://www.tir.org/ethic-code.html) it states that:

1. Practitioners will not engage in a sexual relationship with clients or students, where such a relationship did not exist prior to the course of sessions or the training event.

2. Practitioners do not, in any way, take personal advantage of the special relationship that exists between instructor and student, or practitioner and client. Practitioners will not take unfair advantage of any professional relationship or exploit others to further their personal, religious, political, sexual, or business interests.


And in the code of ethics of The United Kingdom Association of Humanistic Psychology Practitioners (http://www.ahpp.org/ethical/code_of_practice.htm) it states that:

4.4 UKAHPP Members avoid exploiting the trust and dependency of clients, students, supervisees, research participants and subordinates. In particular:
4.4.1 Every effort is made to avoid dual relationships that could impair professional judgment, increase the risk of exploitation or otherwise confuse the existing relationship.
4.4.2 Sexual intimacies with clients or past clients are unethical.
4.4.3 Non-professional relationships with former clients are avoided whenever possible.
4.4.4 Potential conflicts of interest that might arise are made clear to all parties concerned.
4.4.5 Where there is any risk of exploitation or other harmful dual relationship either during or after a working relationship, UKAHPP Members demonstrate their professional commitment to the welfare of their clients by invoking the UKAHPP Ethical Review Procedure before taking any possibly unethical action.


While The Traumatic Incident Reduction Association might live up to its name if it can keep a habitual traumatizer suitably bound I wonder if their techniques can help his string of victims recover their health.

Now if you have a problem you know who to complain to.

I have really no idea about this man, Hansard, but I do know he has teamed up with a solicitor called Peter Adediran...

[www.christopherhansardlegal.com]

[peteradediran.com]

[...]

Out of curiosity, I called the Royal Society of Medicine about Christopher Hansard. Someone of that name is an associate member. Apparently, no qualifications are needed to be an associate member, nor is there any requirement to be working in a medical field. The society says his registration makes no mention of Tibetan Medicine!

[Moderator's note: Please stay on topic. The topic of this thread is Christopher Hansard, not details about an attorney representing Hansard]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2010 05:26AM by rrmoderator.