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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: chick ()
Date: March 07, 2008 05:00AM

Three posts and none have shown up yet? Am Ibeing impatient?

chick

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Why does she install such negative beliefs?
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: March 07, 2008 05:25AM

Quote
The Anticult
Now, the next project is to figure out WHY does Byron Katie install such negative and destructive Beliefs in her hypnotic subjects?
Its clear HOW she does it, but why?
That is very rare for these types of hypnotists...

Is it because Byron Katie herself suffers from some type of serious disturbance?

Or is it simply marketing, to find those in serious PAIN, and to use that as leverage? To attract people with distorted negative beliefs?

Or is it to build a pathological dependence in her subjects to Byron Katie?

Or does Byron Katie just get off on the Power of being worshipped, as she is?

Is Byron Katie uneducated and deluded enough to actually believe installing more negative beliefs is good?

Masochism, or sadism?



I don't think that has been answered yet.
They HOW is easy, its in the text and method...

But the WHY? Other than the obvious...
She has to know that installing "Love Is A Murderer" types of extremely negative core beliefs are going to wreck people's lives...everyone knows that... right?
Do they?

Well, Anticult, I know from my experience/and therapy (good therapy), how destructive this "black and white" thinking is. Also sometimes classified as "adolescent" thinking, as often the adolescent brain, not quite capable of consistent 'critical thinking' tends towards. Everything is either good or bad, happy or sad, ...love/hate ...nothing 'grey' inbetween...also, in my experience, one of the traits of people who suffer with Borderline Personality Disorder.

I think it is quite likely that Katie herself is suffering from some sort of Personality Disorder, and as you know there are many many many CEOs of big corporations who are themselves 'psychopaths' - the point is they just don't care about anyone else but themselves.

I have had the misfortune to watch one such 'psychopath' grow and thrive. My ex-husbands's son - it was so creepy and frightening - my X could just not understand why i did not want him baby-sitting our small child! - but the young boy was so clever, he LEARNED the appropriate emotions, mimiked them, but his eyes were empty; he would keep hurting people, apologize, but then just keep doing the same thing over and over again. And the LIES...he could tell a lie with such finesse, but my stomach would turn and the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Eventually one would catch him in his lie, but he was SO clever. He DID have brain damage when he was born, - his parents worried about his survival, but he still managed to thrive and make a ton of money!

And of course we are finding out that there are many many more people like him around.

Someone once told me that the most common addiction is accommodating others at our own expense.

Later someone else told me that often, people sublimate other addictions with their addiction to Power and Control (ref. your point about Katie getting off on the Power of being worshipped) .. so put these two groups together and what do you have?

...people who are only TOO willing to give up their own needs for someone else, and people who are quite happy to have them do so...AND, what is more EXPLOIT their weakness....

"to attract people with distorted negative beliefs" you wrote - Exactly!...and how sad is it, they do not want to listen to what we have to say, we, who really care, who want to help them move past their pain!

*sigh* [a fatal 'brew', eh?]

regards,
Shad

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) Destructive one-way relationships
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 07, 2008 09:20AM

Some terrific information in there to come back to later...

but it makes me wonder?
Does anyone know of some of those checklists they use in psychology, something a person might use to analyze whether or not they were in a destructive relationship or not? Anyone know about that kind of thing?
For example, people who get pathologically bonded to an abuser, that must have been studied a lot.
Maybe someone knows of a decent set of questions, or lists of traits somewhere?
Then people can analyze the Byron Katie attachment, and other attachments, and see if they are destructive, one-way, pathological attachments, based on satifying the needs, whims of the Aggressor?
Does that make sense?

Quote
corboy
Psychoanalyst Stanley Rosenman writes about trauma in the context of violent assault. But our members may find this of interest:

All this is quoted from Stanley Rosenman's paper 'Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity

Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis and Dynamic Psychiatry, Volume 31(3) pages 521-40, 2003

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: vlinden ()
Date: March 07, 2008 09:47AM

Yikes, check out the hypnotic text EXCERPT from the Byron Katie certified facilitator Diane Bradshaw..

Notice how slick it looks and sounds? Just like a conversation.
She even buries the 4 Questions slightly, without saying Byron Katie, to draw you in.
This reads like advertising copy, but its really a light Trance Induction, just to start to draw you in.

Spot the embedded commands...leading questions, images of Self, OPEN HEART, cues, triggers...
This woman would get a lot of business from women...does she do this ethically?

-Does she refer people to Byron Katie seminars for a commission?

-it does NOT say on her title page she is a hypnotist.
-Is she registered and licensed as a hypnotist?
-does she adhere to a posted code of Ethics?



----------------

Anticult,

It's hard to understand, when you have no background in hypnosis, how the example you provided of Diane Bradshaw's information is anything other than basic advertising. I understand advertising uses "commands" all the time. I grew up in the world of Los Angeles advertising, Hollywood, and I know how manipulative it is, though I think most people in the ad world just do this naturally, without any training in hypnosis. At least, not the people I knew. They were simply thinking of how appeal to their market, how to get their message across using the least amount of words, be clever, stimulate desires, etc.

So perhaps you could explain a bit more about what you saw in those paragraphs for those of us who don't understand.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: vlinden ()
Date: March 07, 2008 12:06PM

I just found this old post from Corboy on another thread. It says some things very clearly that I've tried to articulate in other threads about the problems with New Age practices, applying ancient mystical teachings to every day life in the modern world. I think it applies very well to members of LGATs like Landmark, and ten times over to Byron Katie worshippers.



From an article on yoga

[www.lorinroche.com]

Quote:
meditating is like running, or any sport or form of training – injuries happen. And injuries are to be avoided if possible! They ruin the fun. But the denial system in meditators is so intense they can't stand ANY hint that their practice may be less than perfect. And this denial, of course, is one of the hidden dangers of meditation. Go figure.


From an article on two paths--renunciate practice and householder practice and problems that may arise if detachment practices are wrongly prescribed for persons whose actual life path is through relationship not detachment from relationship...

[www.lorinroche.com]

Quote:
Almost all books on meditation available today are written by people who were inspired in one way or the other by the great monastic traditions of India and other Asian countries. Almost all teachers of meditation are either monks or nuns, were trained by monks or nuns, or were trained by students of monks or nuns. So attitudes of renunciation have come to be synonymous with meditation.
When householders practice meditations designed for renunciates, they inadventently damage the psychic and energetic structures they need to make their way in the material world. Meditation works, and it works on you on a deep level. If you go into meditation with the idea that you have to detach from the world, you may get more than you bargained for - you may find yourself gradually getting dissociated, removed, alienated, and depersonalized. It is always easier to destroy than to create, and detachment means to cut off or separate. It can take years to rebuild connections that you have severed through mistakenly practicing detachment.

In a nutshell, monks and nuns evolve by living a life of detachment, disconnection, and aloofness. They may be very attached to their robes and their spiritual order, but their practice is about renouncing their desire for "worldly things." For them, spirituality is irrevocably tied up with denial.

Non-monks, on the other hand, evolve through working with the material world. Detachment is not the primary attitude to cultivate. Rather, the opposite of detachment is indicated: being involved, close, committed, and intimate. For some odd reason, this distinction is not being honored, and the wrong techniques are being taught on a wide scale.


Quote:
The Path of Attachment and Involvement

People who have families, jobs, pay rent or mortgages, and live in the real world, have very different needs in meditation. Recluses call us householders. Houeseholders do not need to constantly kill off their natural impulses. As a matter of fact, the last thing they need is to weaken their desires, instincts and intuition. The path of the householder involves working with attachment. It is very daring to be attached. Tolerating the experience of attachment takes courage. Personal bonds are attachments. Loving someone is an attachment. Householders, when they meditate, should savor every sexual impulse, cherish every desire, honor and listen to all their instincts, and cultivate their general enthusiasm for life.


When The Paths Become Confused


When householders practice meditation in the style of a recluse, and practice detaching from their desires, they often find that over time their instincts become weaker, their intuition becomes flawed, they become confused about their desires, and they start looking for an external authority to dominate them and tell them what to do. This is what happens when you practice detachment. When you internalize toxic attitudes (such as advocated in The Precious Garland) toward your desires, attachments and your identity, you will indeed find over time that your individuality is weakened and you start longing for some dominant male to tell you what to do. You will long for shelter in a religous organization, spiritual collective, or cult. As you separate yourself from your personal desires, you become magnetically attracted to people who have strong, dynamic egos. In other words, the center of life is moved from being inside your body to being out there, somewhere. This process of depersonalization usually takes several years, and people are generally surprised at how deep it goes. It is not unusual for it to take ten or fifteen years to recover from several years practicing meditation in a mood of renunciation.

It is not the meditation per se that is harming you, it is the attitude of detachment that you are practicing. In other words, taking on reclusive attitudes is like taking the treatment for a disease you don't have. If you are healthy and strong, but your doctor thinks that your strength is a sign of a rebellious spirit that needs to be broken, and gives you chemotherapy and radiation, you will get sick. When householders become weak from meditating, monks and nuns think this is great, that you are stepping onto the spiritual path. But it is one thing for a monk or nun to have no money, be celibate and obedient. When a householder is influenced by monastic thinking, she just becomes broke, lonely and submissive. This is not evolution, this is just damage, unless it really is your destiny to leave everything and everyone and go join a religious order.

A lot more research needs to be done in this area. For example, some people can breeze through years of Nagarjuna-type teachings and then just slough it off when they are done. It was no weirder than their family of origin, and maybe it helped them to expunge something. Others are deeply affected in a negative way...

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: March 07, 2008 02:50PM

Quote
vlinden

When householders practice meditations designed for renunciates, they inadventently damage the psychic and energetic structures they need to make their way in the material world. Meditation works, and it works on you on a deep level. If you go into meditation with the idea that you have to detach from the world, you may get more than you bargained for - you may find yourself gradually getting dissociated, removed, alienated, and depersonalized. It is always easier to destroy than to create, and detachment means to cut off or separate. It can take years to rebuild connections that you have severed through mistakenly practicing detachment....

... Rather, the opposite of detachment is indicated: being involved, close, committed, and intimate. For some odd reason, this distinction is not being honored, and the wrong techniques are being taught on a wide scale....


... As a matter of fact, the last thing they need is to weaken their desires, instincts and intuition. The path of the householder involves working with attachment. It is very daring to be attached. Tolerating the experience of attachment takes courage. Personal bonds are attachments. Loving someone is an attachment.
Quote
vlinden
quote]

quite right...I can't remember the name of the child psychologist ...was it Bowen...who talks about attachment disorder...when a child looses a primary caretaker (through death or because the parent/s become addicts and neglect the children) , but anyway, when a child does not develop the normal famial ties, often they suffer a wide range of psychological disorders. They grow into adults who are not able to form healthy emotional relationships. [and perhaps these are the adults that the people like Katie and other LGATs are targetting]-- they are easy prey, eh?

~Shad

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Byron Katie(the Work) A THOUSAND NAMES FOR JOY -CD WARNING-HYPNOSIS
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 10, 2008 03:27AM

Does anyone happen to have the ebook, or text from the Byron Katie book, with the beyond ironic title "A Thousand Names for Joy"?

I (very painfully) listened to the entire 5 CD's, and made some notes which will be posted soon.
But at the end of CD#3, 3 minutes from the end, Byron Katie tells a long rambling 3 minute story about a "washing machine" and her "doing the laundry" while in Amsterdam?
Anyone remember that, or were you "sleeping" by then?

Regardless, if someone happened to have the ebook already (please don't buy it!), or had the TEXT handy, if they could post it as a fair-use excerpt, or PM it to me to use in the analysis-review of the CD, that would be terrific. It really will be very "fascinating" (to quote Byron Katie) to have a very close look at that text.
If anyone can help out with this, it will be more than worth the effort. It might even be...(to quote BK).."VOILA"... enlightening...





___________________________________(item reference)_____
A Thousand Names for Joy: A Life in Harmony with the Way Things Are [ABRIDGED] [AUDIOBOOK] (Audio CD)
by Byron Katie (Reader), Stephen Mitchell (Reader)
Audio CD
Publisher: RH Audio; Abridged edition (February 6, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 073934188X

A Thousand Names for Joy: Living in Harmony with the Way Things Are (Hardcover)
by Byron Katie (Author), Stephen Mitchell (Author)
Product Details
Hardcover: 304 pages
Publisher: Harmony (February 6, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0307339238

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Re: Byron Katie(the Work) YouTube Venice Beach, Home of The Whopper
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 10, 2008 04:22AM

by the way, did anyone see the Byron Katie video on YouTube down at Venice Beach? Part 1, the one with her and many of those attending The School For The Work?

I think its very important to remember, and too easy to forget, that a very strong line needs to be drawn between Byron Katie, and the folks who attend her LGAT seminars, like her School for The Work. There is a huge difference between the people who are paying money to attend, and those who are making the money.
Those who are attending really do appear totally genuine and very decent and kind people. Do they have an knowledge of what an LGAT seminar even is? Have they been given Full Disclosure of what isbeing done to them at the Byron Katie LGAT seminar? (no, they have not, its deliberately hidden).


But notice, from Byron Katie, and some of her (possibly illegally named) unpaid "STAFF" very aggressive shilling and promotion? and mentioning the website over and over and over...
Was that Carol Skolnick near the end promoting the website? Hard to tell...
They do this, as the Byron Katie website is very carefully designed to lure people in, read the text, look at the pics, listen, watch the indocrination videos on YouTube, its all carefully structured.

But Byron Katie tells some bald-faced Whoppers in that video...BK also stands for Burger King, and both BK's can sell some real "Whoppers". Home Of The Whopper, indeed...

For example, Byron Katie is not even "congruent" (to use the term from NLP), when she tells her little "stories" on Venice Beach.
She states something along the line of...the work is always free, what we do is always for free...meanwhile she is surrounded by a few hundred people who are paying $5,000 bucks to be there, plus thousands more in "gifts". Completely blatant...

Byron Katie also says that she and her husband have never fought or disagreed? Did you see that false-grin when she said that?

In her CD program, she states she has had No Thoughts, or something, since 1986? Just watch her as the guy asked her where she is going next...she puts her head down...thinks about her upcoming media appearances...etc. Of course she Thinks...how can you speak and live without Thinking? She just makes up all these "stories" like they do in NLP types of hypnosis and persuasion, and it seems she is just trying to tell others to Not Think..and let HER do the thinking? Byron Katie is a very sharp Thinker, very stategic, very selective, very self-conscious about what she says, and does NOT say, as we shall see.

I guess the old truism is correct, if you are going to lie, tell a Big Whopper Lie, and then people will believe it?

Lastly, right at the end of the video, there is the woman who is literally on her knees before Byron Katie, hands clasped in a type of prayer position, and sobbing...when the camera arrives you can see Byron Katie trying to move away and change the position a bit...when she is at her LGAT seminars, and elsewhere, how long does Byron Katie allow people to kneel in front of her, and cry for?
Is Byron Katie a Saint?

Meanwhile Byron Katie is claiming she is not a Guru, but when you analyze her methods and text, you can see she is literally Progamming that type of extreme "Worship" response into the people who are suggestible and vulnerable to that. Its no accident, and its not magic or divine, its Programming, and its right there in the text, as we shall see.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2008 04:29AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie(the Work) A THOUSAND NAMES FOR JOY -CD WARNING-HYPNOSIS
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 10, 2008 05:04AM

Quote
The Anticult
Does anyone happen to have the ebook, or text from the Byron Katie book, with the beyond ironic title "A Thousand Names for Joy"?

I (very painfully) listened to the entire 5 CD's, and made some notes which will be posted soon.
But at the end of CD#3, 3 minutes from the end, Byron Katie tells a long rambling 3 minute story about a "washing machine" and her "doing the laundry" while in Amsterdam?
I could barely get through that book. Thankfully I'd taken it out of the library when I read it. (Am so glad I didn't spend any $$ on it!)

I've just put the book on reserve so that I can take it out from the library again and find the part you're talking about. I'll let you know when I have it.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: vlinden ()
Date: March 10, 2008 05:47AM

I don't have any BK materials, thank god, but I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to post exact text where BK talks about instances of sexual or physical abuse.

If someone would post this, I would be happy to send it to the legitimate organizations that deal with these issues, with a letter asking them to review the material and consider making a public statement about it.

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