Current Page: 39 of 295
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) - Steven Sashen clarification
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2008 08:56AM

[Clarification: Here is a clarification about some of the postings in this long and heated thread, just to try to make sure everything is clear...(as mud, it seems!). Due to the vagaries of plain-text email, there clearly were some misintrepretations made of a casual comment, which lead to a few speculative questions being asked, but no claims being made either way, about whether or not there was any type of connection or contact between Guruphiliac and Stephen Sashen. Up to now, there has been zero evidence for any connection regarding this issue, and it also appears nothing at all has been said about it either way. So whoever spoke to Guruphiliac about the Byron Katie issues, male or female, is not known at this time. If any clarification was posted about that on the Guruphiliac blog or anywhere else, please post the link.]

Options: ReplyQuote
Ho'oponopono "Dr." Joe Vitale -one of the worst books in world history
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2008 09:14AM

Its true about how NLP went Hawaiian.
Years ago, Tad James, who was an NLP salesman and NLP hypnosis guy, was selling a ton of NLP stuff, and also got into the Hawaiian Huna thing.

Forgive my bluntless, but I don't believe for a second any of those guys really believe in any of that stuff. Its just some exotic sounding thing that they can market and sell with a new angle in the New Age market, and it must sell pretty well.
They all cross-market with eachother, cut side-deals, etc. Clearly, its just another shameless SHAM, scam, wham, bam, thanks for the cash, ma'am.

There was a discussion of that very book in a thread about The (non)Secret a while back, in which some poster here referred to it as "one of the worst books in world history."

Zero Limits: The Secret Hawaiian System for Wealth, Health, Peace, and More by Joe Vitale and Ihaleakala Hew Len
[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
helpme2times
Quote
chick
Anticult the last post hits the spot straight away for me, could not have done that better myself.

Joe Vitale, he promotes the `Dr Len` and `Hoponopono` story which is mind control and can be found on the Huna/life coaching sites and is supposed to be about Psychic moments and criminal insanity patients. Alot of NLP companies here in the UK sell Huna courses as an advanced form of NLP.
A year or so ago, "Dr." Joe Vitale wrote an immensely popular article that caused many to run out and take weekend courses in an "updated" version of a traditional Hawaiian healing ceremony known as Ho'oponopono.

This is the article that kicked off the Ho'oponopono craze:

"The World's Most Unusual Therapist"

Joe's article alleges that a practitioner of "updated" Ho'oponopono, Dr. Ihaleakala Hew Len, was able to miraculously cure an entire ward of criminally insane patients. Following the popularity of the article, Dr. Len and Joe Vitale co-authored a book about the process: Zero Limits: The Secret Hawaiian System for Wealth, Health, Peace, and More.

At least one source suggests that Dr. Len and Joe Vitale's version of Ho'oponopono is cult-y:

Is "Zero Limits" a Cult?

Options: ReplyQuote
Byron Katie(the Work) The Steven Sashen Anti-Guru-Blog $100 challenge!
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2008 09:27AM

Hopefully Steven Sashen, or any other of the people who promote and sell The (alleged) Work, will be able to accept the spirit of Steven's $100 Challenge, and using his own evidence procedure, come up with some evidence for the extreme and very serious Claims being made for The Work by Byron Katie.
If their claims are accurate, then it should be on the cover of every medical journal in the world! Why isn't it?
Why, after so many years and decades, does it appear there are no scientific studies about The Work? Please, let us see the studies, so we can have look at the objective scientific evidence.
Just the same level of Evidence that Steven Sashen rightly asks for on his blog.
Steven, feel free to post a response on your blog, or anywhere else, and lets have a close look at it.

This is not satire, it is a 100% sincere inquiry, that would be applied to any other treatment methodology for stress, depression, etc.


Quote
The Anticult
Lets give Steven Sashen a nice thumbs-up when he makes a good blog posting at the Anti-Guru Blog.

"Develop a New Habit? Give me 21 days, and I’ll give you… three weeks"
[sashen.com]

And he even offers a $100 reward! Good stuff!

Steven Sashen is talking some good stuff about fish and flies, the Emoto water crystals scam, and Quantum Physics...and he concludes the blog with "Got any others?"

Yeah I do actually...How about changing a few words in The Steven Sashen $100 Challenge from the blog...


"If someone can give me a respected, published scientific study (that can’t be effortlessly debunked because of bad or no control groups, too small a sample size, or other obviously stupid study design... {like it being conducted by the company who makes millions from it, or their friends-associates! -editor}
...that demonstrates the proof of the "Byron Katie The Work" technology, I’ll give you $100!"


Why not? See below, Byron Katie International, and his own blog make a lot of very serious claims...

"Eliminate stress: Live without anxiety or fear"
"Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating"

Eliminating Stress and Eliminating Depression is worth more than $100. Maybe $100 Billion.
But this is 100% serious.

Where is the proof, as he reasonably defines it himself? All we need are those studies measuring effects on stress and depression, that have been published in peer-reviewed journals

...like the "325 studies involving 465 specific comparisons" for Cognitive Therapy at the Beck Institute.
[www.beckinstitute.org]
(search their website for OUTCOME RESEARCH, their links never work).


Could someone let Steven Sashen know about him posting this new $100 Challenge on his blog, or responding to it here? Someone could post a link there to give him a heads up?
Does it not seem logical, fair, and completely reasonable?


_________________________________________________
(excerpts from recent webpages)
[www.sashen.com]

"don't be fooled by the seeming simplicity of The Work. When you do it, you get un-done!"
...

"Who would you be without your story?"

"The Work is deceptively simple, yet infinitely profound. By investigating your stressful thoughts you discover the true cause of your unhappiness, stress or suffering. And from that discovery, the effortless, natural and sometimes instantaneous move to clarity and peace can occur.

The Work is not a teaching or a philosophy and, therefore, does not maintain the idea that any issue in your life is a problem that needs to be fixed. Yet when you hold The Work up to any troubling issue -- physical, mental, emotional, spiritual -- it can never be the same.

I am a former Curriculum Director for The School for The Work of Byron Katie and taught with Katie at the school."
...

"Experience the deceptively simple, yet infinitely profound, self-inquiry process known as The Work of Byron Katie.

Identify and break through limiting beliefs.
Meet your most persistent fears with understanding.
Free yourself from stress, resentment and unhappiness.
Unravel problems with health, relationships, work, money, and anything else that brings you pain.

In this profound weekend you'll explore exercises developed for and taught at Byron Katie's 10-day School for The Work, deepen the effect of the 4 Questions in your life, and rest in the wordless answer to "Who would you be without your story?

In addition, you'll explore "The Work in Movement" and "Quantum Work" (where, instead of you investigating your problems, your problems investigate you!). People who have done Quantum Work have said, "The Work is like turning on a light in a dark room... Quantum Work is like turning on floodlights!" and "I think this is the only way people should do The Work."

___________________________________________________________
(CLAIMS for The Work from the official Byron Katie website as of March 4, 2008)

What is The Work?

The Work is a simple yet powerful process of inquiry that teaches you to identify and question the stressful thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world. It's a way to understand what's hurting you, a way to end all your stress and suffering.

People who do The Work faithfully report life-changing results.

Eliminate stress: Live without anxiety or fear
Improve relationships: Have a new sense of connection and intimacy with your husband or wife, your parents, your children, and with yourself
Reduce anger: Get angry less often and less intensely, and eventually not at all
Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating
Clarity: Act more intelligently and effectively
Energy: Experience a new sense of vigor and well-being
Peace: Learn how to love what is, and find lasting inner peace
_____________________________________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 09:44AM by The Anticult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: March 11, 2008 01:10PM

Quote
al3r
I am currently reading Loving What Is by Byron Katie.

I thought the first part of the book was pretty boring and basic, but it's getting better the more I read. So far, I did like one thing she said very much. It was. IF you put your hand in a fire, does anyone have to tell you to move it?

We are capable to move away from the flame and into the Truth and Light without any outside force telling us- ie, a guru, or a organized religion, or a political party. I liked that. As the bible teaches that the Holy Spirit INSIDE us guides us, not somebody preaching at us.

When we all stop expecting organized religion to give us the answers as to what the bible means and as the holy spirit for ourselves, I believe only then can we stop all this nonsense about only one church being the "true" church. Peace out.


--i was wondering when jj52 would return....??

~~Shad

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: its not all negation...there is plenty of Legit good stuff out there..
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: March 11, 2008 02:25PM

Quote
The Anticult
I just want to drop one small Knowledge-Bomb into this to balance things out a bit. It seems that everything about this is extremely negative, and it is, its important to look at the facts.
BUT, negation won't get us anywhere by itself. There are countless wonderful things to explore, that are legit.

For example, saw a documentary the other week about some contemporary artists...that is asking the same questions about "reality' but doing so in an intelligent way, and its FREE to think, you don't need an LGAT to let some crackpot wreck your mind, go to a current art show and expand your mind for $5, and that will be 1000x more enlightening.
There are real psychologists out there (like Martin Seligman), real philosophers and Thinkers.
Steven Pinker has a great new book out called "The Stuff of Thought", wonderful stuff. So there is lots of great stuff out there, that is wonderful and legit, and that is what leads to happiness and meaning.

No one needs to get tricked and trapped into Byron Katies nihilism, amorality, false-ideas, deception, manipulation and antiscience. Its deadly stuff...its a type of violent mind-destruction to create passivity and depression in the subjects...

Its VERY important to balance out and detox the BK mind-poison, every 30 minutes spent analyzing Byron Katie, gets off-set 2:1 by exposure to some high-quality, excellent food for the mind and soul, to grow one's Knowledge and ones character.

Quite right, Anticult,
and you can go to the Library and borrow as many books as you like to "enlighten" yourself, without having to fork out hundred and hundreds of dollars, eh?

True Knowledge, might be "Priceless" - and maybe that means "FREE"!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: The Shadow ()
Date: March 11, 2008 02:34PM

Quote
al3r
I am currently reading Loving What Is by Byron Katie.

I thought the first part of the book was pretty boring and basic, but it's getting better the more I read. So far, I did like one thing she said very much. It was. IF you put your hand in a fire, does anyone have to tell you to move it?

We are capable to move away from the flame and into the Truth and Light without any outside force telling us- ie, a guru, or a organized religion, or a political party. I liked that. As the bible teaches that the Holy Spirit INSIDE us guides us, not somebody preaching at us.

When we all stop expecting organized religion to give us the answers as to what the bible means and as the holy spirit for ourselves, I believe only then can we stop all this nonsense about only one church being the "true" church. Peace out.

FYI, al3r
the "mission statement" of The Rick A. Ross Institute (RRI) organization is devoted to provide public education and research. "RRI's mission is to study destructive cults, controversial groups and movements and to provide a broad range of information and services easily accessible to the public for assistance and educational purposes. "

If you have read the "threads" you will see people who are here to share their pain and horrible experiences of cults, and cult-like groups, one of which is the Katie Group.

Please respect the intent of this Board, and refrain from what seems to be an attempt to justify your experience, or bring people back into the Katie "fold".

I am sure if people wanted to remain involved with Katie (or other LGATs) they would not be here.

regards,
Shad

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and former BK Schoolmates thread?
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2008 05:28PM

Quote
The Shadow
--i was wondering when jj52 would return....??
~~Shad

Naw, that ain't jj.
Personally, I hope someday jj does return, one way or another, to keep us in line!
She was correct, in my view, about how some of us are too defensive at times. I think that stems from the fact some of us have had to deal with posters from Landmark, and other groups of that nature, who do come on and just play ugly games to try and screw the threads up, and do so in a very unpleasant way, for months on end. So sometimes that exasperation spills over in being too reactive.

Looking at the Byron Katie videos, there is no question that most, if not all of the Byron Katie seminar attendees (who are paying the $$) are 100% genuine true believers in what is happening. (That can't really be said for those making the money off it...that would really be a different category of BK person).

I hope jj comes back, one way or another at some point to...


1) continue to give an excellent balanced analysis of the situation from the inside perspective.


2) maybe start a gentler thread for former Byron Katie School members ONLY, so they can discuss issues in a more subtle and nuanced fashion. That way, folks who have done the Byron Katie School could perhaps feel safer to discuss issues as they see fit, at their own speed, anonymously, without fear of losing all their BK friends, etc.


3) If some of those same folks want a little more "blunt" analysis, then can look in the other threads, like this one!! :-) This thread would be better for those who have NOT done the Byron Katie School, to just make the decision to NOT do it beforehand!


Or perhaps jj will start a thread or group elsewhere, or just do whatever she feels is right.
Regardless, her posts will literally help possibly hundreds of Byron Katie Schoolmates as time goes on.

Maybe one day she, or someone else, could collect those key insider posts, and the posts of the other former BK Schoolmates and relatives like Blammo, and put them together in a single thread, and then make that the Former Member BK thread?
That way a more gentle approach and analysis might be much more effective in communicating with current BK Schoolmates, who might have some inner secret doubts.

Perhaps that is something that could be started by any other former BK Schoolmate who might want to try to work things through?

There is even a section here called...

Former Cult Members and Affected Families
[forum.culteducation.com]


Just an idea.
Its important to remember these things look completely different from the inside, than from the outside, that is for sure. And the stress of coming out of of Byron Katie-LaLaLand must be something else. I recently listened to a mere 6 hours of Byron Katie on CD, and of all the zillions of CD programs I have listened to, that was the most damaging I can recall, as in potentially the most manipulative and dangerous. I've listened to tape sets of L Ron Hubbard, and personally just found him laughable, although others would respond differently of course.
But Byron Katie is unbelievably diabolical in what she is doing on those CD's, and the female voice, and multiple levels of complex tactics, when all put together...very dangerous. I had to do some serious counter-Inductions after that CD, to get Byron Katie out of my head. That is some VERY serious stuff, and I will post my analysis of that CD set...soon...watch out for Byron Katie...and if you are wise...don't look into those eyes...or listen to her voice too much...don't watch those YouTube videos unless you are carefully analyzing the text and methods being used on the subject...YOU.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 05:45PM by The Anticult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) - ghastly war video
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 11, 2008 08:45PM

Remember that video where Katie is counseling the woman who is afraid of war? Well, there are actually three videos covering the entire dialogue. I just watched Part 2 - "I'm Afraid of War".

Actually I didn't make it through the whole video. It bothered me so much, I had to stop watching. I could barely believe what I was hearing.

I went back and transcribed the part where BK lost me. This is what Byron Katie actually says to the woman re her possibly experiencing war again:

"The sirens could go off and you might think, 'Hmmm, interesting sound. I don't have the room that I thought I'd have.' As an intelligent human being, what can I do from right here, right now? And if nothing comes to you to do, you might just ask yourself again, 'I'm afraid of war, is it true?' And notice that you're still intact, the flower's still fine. And if the bomb blows your leg off, you can get very excited. It's like, how do I know I'm not supposed to have that leg anymore? It's gone. And immediately move into why you are better off without it. I know you can do this because your mind is very busy creating what you can't do when the leg's blown off. That is proof of your capacity to understand, to create. You're creating the world in the moment of what you will no longer be able to do. Not very exciting. But it's very exciting to just sit in, 'My leg is gone and what could be better than two legs?' Obviously, life with one leg. And all of the examples of why your life would be better."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 11, 2008 09:40PM

(quote from post above)"But it's very exciting to just sit in, 'My leg is gone and what could be better than two legs?' Obviously, life with one leg. And all of the examples of why your life would be better." (end of quote)

Interesting to compare this advise with BK's letter about her skin cancer.

And if acceptance is what it is all about, why get a face lift?

Why not love one's own wrinkles as a manifestation of What Is?

PS: If you guys want an honest, in-your-face-description of what it is like to go from being able bodied to quadraplegic, the range of emotions, rehab, etc:

Get and read John Callahan's biography, 'Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot.'

At one point in the book, Callahan tells of hanging out with another man, Toby, who was a spectacular amputee. Toby had been a LRP (long range patrol) soldier
in Vietnam, was grievously injured and both his legs were amputated, including
the hip sockets.

Callahan said that 'They fit what was left of him into a a prosthesis called a 'bucket'---a fake set of hips and legs that sat in a wheelchair permanently dressed in corduroy pants, shoes and socks.' (Callhan, Dont Worry, He Wont Get Far on Foot, page 93)

One night, Callanhan and Toby, both in thier wheelchairs, were at the local tavern.

'One type anybody in a wheelchair meets fairly frequently is the citizen who flatly disbelieves you are really crippled' Callahan tells us.

'To these guys it is all in the mind.'

'One afternoon we were accosted by a Mount Angel college sophmore who had had a few (beers) and was clearly affronted by the very sight of us. He came over and told us off.

"You guys are just fakers! If you really wanted to, you could use the power of your minds to get up out of those chairs and walk!"

"Yeah, I suppose you're right", agreed Toby. He put his hands down on his wheels and slowly lifted all that was left of his torso straight up out of his pants.

'With his elbows locked, there were four inches of clear air above his belt buckle.

'The college kid's eyes bulged and he picked up his beer and just moved out, while the room full of regulars just exploded with laughter.' (Callahan, page 96)

No...folks, the difference is, in ordinary life, people like Toby are out there to cut through the crap.

But leaders of these 'Power of the Mind' guru-entrepreneur set ups, do things carefully staged, and probably sure, in advance, with the help of their entourages, that no one like Toby could ever sneak in to one of their events
and administer the kind of reality check that Toby did at Tiny's Tavern that night.

And if someone like Toby did slip in, the event would probably be edited off the tapes and removed from the video footage.

Footnote

'To these guys it is all in the mind.' ****(Callahan describes an incident that took place in the 1970s. This 'all in the mind' bias has been around for decades for it is a way to avoid facing our own aching vulnerabilty as embodied human beings who can go from being ambulatory, to wheelchair bound in the blink of an eye. This 'its all in the mind' is a defense against anxiety at life's potential brutality. It apparently offers a toe hold that can be readily exploited by the kinds of groups being discussed on RR.com)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 09:43PM by corboy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) - hypnotic language patterns, metaphors
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2008 10:04PM

Wow, thanks for posting that. Yes, everyone be EXTREMELY CAREFUL with Byron Katie. Its very manipulative and powerful material, one should only study a few minutes at a time, and be VERY careful to analyze it all CONSCIOUSLY. Don't get sucked in.

Byron Katie is always doing several things at once to people, its layered work.

-her #1 technique is almost like a Word Salad, where she bombards the subject with literally hundreds of nonsensical and self-contradictory sentences, quite rapidly. Its impossible to even follow them. The intent is literally programmed confusion, to scramble up your mind and thinking. When done for a hour, a few hours, 16 hours, 9 days, 1 year, your mind turns to mush, and this allows her to CRACK your mind OPEN, so she can get her Suggestions in there.
A form of this is very common in Ericksonian hypnosis, rapid nonsensical phrases to overload the conscious mind...but its not done like this.

-after she scrambles your mind, she starts implanting her suggestions, with words, and usually violent images of death, murder, rape, cancer, war, robbery etc. Again, totally deliberate, to get deep into that area of the psyche, and Triggers those traumas her Target audience is carrying.

-all of these images have at least a double meaning. There is the everyday meaning, and on that level they usually sound somewhat "crazy", like about vases and washing machines, etc. It also gives her plausable denial for any questions about what she may be doing to people, as we shall see.

-now, here she is deliberately is trying to make a person believe that "losing a leg" in "war" is exciting and good. Why? Again, its layered. She does this EXACT same type of thing ALL THE TIME.
I really do not see it having anything at all to do with literal "war", that is the superficial "story" not the deeper meaning to the unconscious. Its the use of that metaphorical imagery for a purpose in her LGAT seminars and systems...what's the purpose?
The 'story" is that YOU violently lose a leg...a limb that gives your the FREEDOM to walk, and Katie wants you to FEEL GREAT about losing that.
So what are you going to LOSE to Byron Katie, and then feel good about losing it?
In her CD set, she teaches people to "trust untrustworthy people as much as trustworthy". Why?
To not be afraid of being "robbed" at gunpoint, etc...why?

We all know its GOOD to be afraid of DANGER so we will get the hell out of there fast. She is trying to short-circuit that healthy response in her subjects, and replace it with ignoring danger, PASSIVELY ACCEPTING danger, and enjoying "losing a leg". When you see the entire system, this is why its so incredibly dangerous. This is why someone could hand her 100K on the spot, or their wedding rings, etc. (maybe their entire inheritance estate...?) But it goes WAY beyond that. You are metaphorically going to "lose a leg-limb-faculty" to Byron Katie, and ENJOY it. Think about it...metaphorically, you are now going to be "crippled" in some way, and literally enjoy it. This is what she wants to do to your Mind-Self-Identity-Soul folks, not kidding....much more to follow...its no accident some people follow her all over the world to her LGATs, fall on their knees before her in tears, and give her everything...everything? That's what she's asking for...even in the CD's...more to follow...




Quote
helpme2times
Remember that video where Katie is counseling the woman who is afraid of war? Well, there are actually three videos covering the entire dialogue. I just watched Part 2 - "I'm Afraid of War".

Actually I didn't make it through the whole video. It bothered me so much, I had to stop watching. I could barely believe what I was hearing.

I went back and transcribed the part where BK lost me. This is what Byron Katie actually says to the woman re her possibly experiencing war again:

"The sirens could go off and you might think, 'Hmmm, interesting sound. I don't have the room that I thought I'd have.' As an intelligent human being, what can I do from right here, right now? And if nothing comes to you to do, you might just ask yourself again, 'I'm afraid of war, is it true?' And notice that you're still intact, the flower's still fine. And if the bomb blows your leg off, you can get very excited. It's like, how do I know I'm not supposed to have that leg anymore? It's gone. And immediately move into why you are better off without it. I know you can do this because your mind is very busy creating what you can't do when the leg's blown off. That is proof of your capacity to understand, to create. You're creating the world in the moment of what you will no longer be able to do. Not very exciting. But it's very exciting to just sit in, 'My leg is gone and what could be better than two legs?' Obviously, life with one leg. And all of the examples of why your life would be better."

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 39 of 295


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.