Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and PTSD, death waivers
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 28, 2010 03:39AM

In terms of PTSD, people should be extremely careful, with any treatment, even those which are licensed.

Unlicensed interventions by untrained Quacks and New Wagers, can be extremely dangerous, and even lethal, resulting in suicides.
Read their own waivers, which talk of the risk of DEATH in their "death clauses". [forum.culteducation.com]

THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE RELEASE OF LIABILITY [forum.culteducation.com]

There have been many others posts previously, about what could happen.


Byron Katie (the Work) and Trauma PTSD, suicide [forum.culteducation.com]

Byron Katie (the Work) and PTSD suicide rates [forum.culteducation.com]

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: luckychrm ()
Date: October 28, 2010 07:56AM

Thanks very much for the tax info Anti-Cult. This thread is unwieldy for me to navigate. I haven't read it all, but I have tried!

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work)
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 28, 2010 10:18PM

Its easier to make the thread function, by using the SEARCH function at the top right, with the relevant keywords.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 29, 2010 11:35PM

If you want an up to date survey of PTSD therapies, and which ones are supported by research, get a copy of Science and Pseudoscience in Clinical Psychology, edited by Lilienfeld and Lohr.

This URL may give you the beginning of the chapter in which current and some controversial treatments for stress related disorders are reviewed. It starts on page 243 when viewed on Googlebooks and you can click forward and see how far the program allows you to go.

[books.google.com]

Here, this same book offers a chapter on "Commercializng Mental Heatlh Issues" by Nona Wilson

[books.google.com]

And, thanks to Google, here is text from an article Lilienfeld wrote on how to teach in such a way as to assist students to understand and discern the difference between scientific and pseudoscientific modalities.

The 10 Commandments of Helping Students
Distinguish Science from Pseudoscience in Psychology
By Scott O. Lilienfeld

(one tiny quote)

Quote

....remember that pseudoscientific beliefs serve important motivational functions. Many paranormal claims, such as those concerning extrasensory perception, out-of-body experiences, and astrology, appeal to believers' deep-seated needs for hope and wonder, as well as their needs for a sense of control over the often uncontrollable realities of life and death. Most believers in the paranormal are searching for answers to profound existential questions, such as "Is there a soul?" and "Is there life after death?" As psychologist Barry Beyerstein (1999) noted (in a play on P.T. Barnum's famous quip), "there's a seeker born every minute" (p. 60). Therefore, in presenting students with scientific evidence that challenges their paranormal beliefs, we should not be surprised when many of them become defensive. In turn, defensiveness can engender an unwillingness to consider contrary evidence.

One of the two best means of lessening this defensiveness (the second is the Eighth Commandment below) is to gently challenge students' beliefs with sympathy and compassion, and with the understanding that students who are emotionally committed to paranormal beliefs will find these beliefs difficult to question, let alone relinquish. Ridiculing these beliefs can produce reactance (Brehm, 1966) and reinforce students' stereotypes of science teachers as close-minded and dismissive. In some cases, teachers who have an exceptionally good rapport with their class can make headway by challenging students' beliefs with good-natured humor (e.g., "I'd like to ask all of you who believe in psychokinesis to please raise my hand"). However, teachers must ensure that such humor is not perceived as demeaning or condescending.

and

"...we must distinguish pseudoscience from metaphysics. Unlike pseudoscientific claims, metaphysical claims (Popper, 1959) cannot be tested empirically and therefore lie outside the boundaries of science. In the domain of religion, these include claims regarding the existence of God, the soul, and the afterlife, none of which can be refuted by any conceivable body of scientific evidence. Nevertheless, certain religious or quasi-religious beliefs, such as those involving "intelligent design" theory, which is the newest incarnation of creationism (see Miller, 2000), the Shroud of Turin, and weeping statues of Mother Mary, are indeed testable and hence suitable for critical analysis alongside of other questionable naturalistic beliefs. By conflating pseudoscientific beliefs with religious beliefs that are strictly metaphysical, instructors risk (a) needlessly alienating a sizeable proportion of their students, many of whom may be profoundly religious; and (b) (paradoxically) undermining students' critical thinking skills, which require a clear understanding of the difference between testable and untestable claims.


(Corboy)

Metaphysical. There is no way to prove or disprove that Byron Katie 'woke up' and 'dropped her story' and was freed from suffering. We cannot prove or disprove that the incident occurred, nor that a cockroach actually ran over her foot while she was laying on the floor of a room in a halfway house. We cannot prove or disprove that. This part is metaphysical

Scientific: Does The Work work better than a placebo effect in 1) relieving major depression as DXed by tests, and given the expense of attending School for the Work, or 28 day Turn Around House, does this give better relief from depression than curren therapies that justify the financial expense, and are the benefits acceptably greater and longer lasting than the risks. (Risk benefit ratio)

These are the kinds of questions than CAN be proved or disproved--these kinds of questions are not metaphysical but scientfic and can be dealt with using research design.

Double blind testing by different research teams in different settings, can be used to determin whether BK's The Work actually works any better than a placebo in healing depression and whether, one year later, the persons still report relief. (Double blind means persons who test as depressed according to commonly accepted measures such as Hamilton Depression scale, MMPI, and more recent tests, and are assigned, randomly (coin toss) to a BK Work group or to a group where people just sit and talk (one has to find a way to ensure that the Work group is not in any way identified with Byron Katie which means her face, her name cannot in any way be mentioned--which would make this a very interesting matter. Real medical psychological methods are not usually tied to the personality of their proponent)

And the researchers and subjects would have no way to know which of them have been assigned to the Work group and which to the control group. (This would have to be done possibly within an inpatient setting so that friends of the subjects could be prevented from saying, "Hey, the stuff you are working on sounds just like Byron Katies Four Questions. Here, I ran a google search and its identical. Cool. I hear all these great things about Katie, she was on Oprah!!". Bang, the double blind study protocol would be shot to smithereens unless some way could be found to request and ensure that subjects not dicuss the materials outside of their group with anyone--part of the challenge of doing objective research on a fame/charisma driven venture)

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

"Many paranormal claims, such as those concerning extrasensory perception, out-of-body experiences, and astrology*, appeal to believers' deep-seated needs for hope and wonder, as well as their needs for a sense of control over the often uncontrollable realities of life and death. "

*(And stories of how someone was suddenly awakened and dropped his or her 'story' and was freed from suffering)

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 30, 2010 12:22AM

You need to get the current issue of Scientific American to read this article in full. But it may have some use for those interested in this thread

Quote

Excerpted from Sleights of Mind: What the Neuroscience of Magic Reveals about Our Everyday Deceptions, by Stephen L. Macknik and Susana Martinez-Conde, with Sandra Blakeslee, by arrangement with Henry Holt and Company, LLC (US) and Profile Books (UK). Copyright © 2010 by Stephen L. Macknik and Susana Martinez-Conde.



Apollo Robbins, master pickpocket and celebrity magician, is sweeping his hands around the body of the fellow he has just chosen from the audience. “What I’m doing now is fanning you,” he informs his mark, “just checking to see what you have in your pockets.” Apollo’s hands move in a flurry of gentle strokes and pats over the man’s clothes. More than 200 scientists are watching him like hawks, trying to catch a glimpse of fingers trespassing into a pocket. But to all appearances this is a perfectly innocent and respectful frisking. “I have a lot of intel on you now,” Apollo continues. “You scientists carry a lot of things.”

(quoted in sidebar to this article)

Quote

In Brief

Humans have a hardwired process of attention and awareness that is hackable.

When people focus on one thing, their brains automatically suppress everything that happens around it. ­Magicians have devised many techniques that exploit this “tunnel vision.”

People can pay attention in various ways. Magicians exploit “top-down,” or deliberate, attention by, say, asking a person to scan a book. They capture “bottom-up” attention with distracting displays such as doves fluttering out of a hat.




Quote

http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Mind+over+Magic%3f+Conjuring+Reveals+How+Our+Neural+Circuits+Can+Be+Hacked&d=1032342079247&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=cb513e93,b473c597

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Metaphysical and pseudoscientific claims: Byron Katie/The Work
Posted by: luckychrm ()
Date: October 30, 2010 12:37AM

Corboy, thank you for sharing the previous informative post and references. The section about the difference between metaphysics and pseudoscience really strikes a chord for me, and possibly other readers as well.

Where the Byron Katie approach intersects with metaphysics and spirituality, or rather where Byron Katie has implied and explicitly associated such an intersection, is where I think the earnest supporters may be feeling a beneficial connection. I realize you and others have written on this thread at great length comparing aspects of Byron Katie/Stephen Mitchell/The Work with manipulative walking hypnosis and unethical use of neuro linguistic programming, and you probably have already discussed the connections between utilizing the power of metaphysics as a draw for the unsuspecting person prepared to believe in the paranormal.

For me, your post above really highlights why some people seem to truly believe that The Work works for them and why they are unconcerned with the lack of scientific validity from the Byron Katie International system.

Myself, I currently seem to have less than the average human capacity to "believe". I couldn't even believe myself to have an imaginary friend as a child :) So when I read accounts of how ardently people (and granted these are almost entirely online accounts- whose authorship and purpose are truly unknowable and suspect due to the nature of internet publishing practices) believe that The Work is helping them and/or could only be beneficial I literally feel like I experience a neural short-circuit and I am temporarily logically/linguistically unable to evaluate those claims or critically discuss the matter. As a teen I used to fall asleep listening to tapes of L. Ron Hubbard auditing someone using Dianetics techniques and I wonder if that repeated exposure (and other intense Dianetics exposure at the time) had an affect on my logical thinking process...

I mention that here not because I am asking anyone to help me "save my brain", but to follow up on some material posted in this thread about how Byron Katie's patterned language may take advantage of previously constructed schema developed during exposure to similar "cultish" stimuli.

Thanks again for the reference links. I look forward to reviewing the research-based treatment information for PTSD, but along with many folks, the time I have available to dedicate to this research is little and dwindling. Perhaps I'll catch a bout of insomnia for a few months and make up for lost time ;)

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: scrambledeggs ()
Date: October 30, 2010 09:17AM

I am curious if anyone knows if this law protects Byron Katie and others like her from practicing without a license?
[www.californiahealthfreedom.org]

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work)
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 30, 2010 02:12PM

It looks like that is more for selling potions, and stuff like that.

Byron Katie is an LGAT seminar saleswoman, that is where she makes the big money.

But if they are making medical claims, without a license, they can get into trouble.
If they are doing psychotherapy without a license, they can get into trouble.

So instead, they just SELL stuff, like so-called "coaching". They make all their claims somewhat vague, and will backtrack if challenged, as has been seen.
But its the New Wage wild west, just make vague claims, and hope no one files complaints.
When people get hurt, and file a lawsuit, they fight them and try to break them, and then pay them off if they won't back down, and sign them to a gag-order. They all do that.

So in fact, when pressed, these LGAT sales people will say they are not doing anything.
As they say, they are just having a "conversation".
Its all about the loopholes.

If you get hurt, or die...talk to the guys in expensive suits.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 30, 2010 10:37PM

With regard to the licensing questions, if you have the time to post, you have the time to find out the location and hours of your local legal clinic and ask about how the law applies in your state to whatever situation concerns you.


For a start on researching patterned language, make the time and see this.

Both of these give citations already available. Now, interested readers must then look at the list of citations and take the time to see which thread topics interest them.

Take the time and pick those and read these.

Anything further--take the time and find a qualified exit counselor or therapist. Mr Ross's site has a list under the topic Getting Help.

Ya get this by typing patterned language into the search slot and 'all dates'

[forum.culteducation.com]

Type nested loops and all dates and you get this

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: November 30, 2010 10:39AM

This article is one persons reflection on the consequences that ensue when persons go overboard in spiritual practice, become ego identified with being 'ego less' and in believing they have dropped their story, become enslaved to a more subtle and insidious story.

Life as Story but Not Quite So Fast

[enlightenmentward.wordpress.com]

(a tiny excerpt)

Quote

To disown our story, or attempt egolessness is a lot like trying to exercise some kind of option to become godlike. We then choose what is and is not relevant both within ourselves and with regard to others. This viewpoint allows morality, although relative, becomes passé.

And it leads to a certain kind of nihilistic perspective wherein nothing really matters. If we disown our story we also disown any and all social connections to it. That means no one else’s story is relevant or important or even to be acknowledged either. ....

There is an inability to distinguish in an specific situation what is and isn’t important to someone else.

This lack of discernment comes from a lack of empathy and compassion. For without the ego we cannot fully appreciate human experience. Discarding story or ego, that is remaining outside of it also causes us to remain outside of empathy. There is no place to connect with other human beings. There is only something of a bubble in which we then live. And we can’t even penetrate to the heart of that bubble for that would mean engaging in the aspects of the human story which we wish to discard.

So without entering our stories fully and working through them and understanding them we are left with a rather shallow existence and no way to make a deep connection with the rest of humanity.

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