douglas_goodall:

Please don't preach religious beliefs here.

This is against the rules you agreed to before posting.

You removed a paragraph where I explained the impact here system would have on my beliefs.
I wasn't preaching, and since you have censored my thoughtful remarks, I will not be back.

You are entitled to your rules, but I didn't break them. You are intolerant.

douglas_goodall:

Bye bye.

See [forum.culteducation.com]

The rules state:

"The purpose of this message board is not to promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint. Don't use it to preach or proselytize."

Offering your personal religious beliefs within a post is against the rules.

You could have simply said that Katie's approach violates your beliefs, without the detailed elaboration you offered, which read like a sermon.

Maybe this isn't the proper forum to address this issue, but I'm sure you'll let me know, moderator. :)

I was raised in a non-practicing Catholic household. I went hyper born-again Christian in my late teens but then removed myself from church when I saw a guest pastor tell us "Please stand for prayer. Now take your wallet out, put it in your right hand and RAISE IT TO THE GLORY OF GOD!!" He's a predominant evangelist that I still see to this day on T.V. with credit card logos and a phone number at the bottom of the screen.

Wanting to be a good person and yet intimidated by life, I read many a self-help book, but never really found relief and improvement. Then, during a depression (I had been getting depressions since I was a child living with my rather emotionally dysfunctional family), I read the Tao Te Ching when I was 24. That one little manuscript opened my mind and eyes like nothing before. From reading and absorbing the Tao Te Ching I literally began to see through my own self-deceptions and misconceptions about life and the world. I literally felt as if my I.Q. increased from this experience because that is when I discovered how to reason logically rather than emotionally.

Then, when I was 28 y.o. and struggling through another depression from being diagnosed with incurable cancer (not terminal, it has been manageable so far), I came across BK's website and The Work. I'm the type who is always wary of those who market their brand of spirituality and almost didn't try The Work because, as I examined her website, I could see how much the schools cost. But, she offered 'everything you need to do The Work' for free. So I printed out a couple of worksheets and gave it a try.

I was hooked after the very first worksheet and have been doing The Work since then (I'm 32 now). I've read her books, subscribed to The Parlor Newsletter for three years (it is now discontinued), and have incorporated The Work enough now that I rarely need to write anything down, it's second nature. What I have NEVER done was feel compelled to go to a school, hire a facilitator, join a live group (though I occasionally visit a free online group), or have spent a penny more than buying her books and subscribing to her newsletter. I never 'guru-ized' BK though I do stay abreast of her goings-on through the internet. I more or less revere her as a teacher that taught me how to take better care of my own emotional well-being. When it comes to that, I consider myself a success story. While I keep tabs on her, I don't think there is anything more she can teach me. This doesn't mean I'm completely stress-free. It is that I know now how to deal with my stresses. My coping skills are off the charts and many people comment on my consistent laid-back, happy-go-lucky nature. (I used to be depressive, self-effacing, self-loathing, high-strung, high-tempered, fearful, etc...) So to answer the thread's topic question, "Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??", my answer would be, "BK was legit for me."

While I consider myself a success story of The Work, I'm not here to defend BK. It's true that I cannot know that she isn't running a cult-like business. I cannot know that she may only be motivated by power and money. I do believe there are people who put BK on a pedestal, dish out loads of money to her, expect to be infinitely blissed-out by her, but come away disappointed, dejected, and feeling used and ripped off. I actually think it is beneficial for websites like this one to warn people of cults but then there's that group of us who have authentically benefited from the likes of BK and her work. How do the guru-hunters account for us? Is just that I'm an anomaly? Or is it that I am just experienced in logically analyzing the words while being able to divorce the personality of the author from them?

Another thing, from reading many previous posts, I see where people are getting tripped up in their own logic trying to condemn some of her teachings or sayings. Wouldn't it be the responsible thing to address those fallacies--not as defense of BK--but as a clarification to their own illogical arguments? If there is fallacy in an argument in order to denounce the character of a person, I feel, those need to be honestly confronted and addressed.

Anyway, I know this is a long post. Sorry, moderator, if you have to edit this extensively. :)

With respect,
Idunno

For someone who signs off as 'Idunno' you seem very, very sure of matters.

Ive noticed that the names chosen by BK protagonists are interesting--designed to elicit pathos or throw readers off balance.

And telling us we need to address our own' illogic' is just another way to pathologize those who disagree. BKistas constantly pathologize those who disagree.

Take a very good look at all the posts written by The Anticult. He or she uses information with the utmost precision, breaks things down into paragraphs, clear line of reasoning.

I quoted plenty of stuff from literature written by and for mental health professionals about boundary issues and fiduciary responsibility--ethos of care. Plenty of logic in those.

If you've genuinely benefitted from BK, nothing, not even our puny little website, can take that away from you.

Must mention that despite your telling us to clarify our own illogical arguments--your stuff reads in a very dense and confusing way.

Not enough was done to break things down into paragraphs.

You wrote

"I never 'guru-ized' BK though I do stay abreast of her goings-on through the internet. I more or less revere her as a teacher that taught me how to take better care of my own emotional well-being."

but you said earlier that "I've read her books, subscribed to The Parlor Newsletter for three years (it is now discontinued), and have incorporated The Work enough now that I rarely need to write anything down, it's second nature..and you mentioned 'I occasionally visit a free online group."

Youve invested plenty of attention, time and energy, enough to trigger and then maintain a transferance--to someone who has not been trained or licensed as a mental health professional and who would not know how to competantly handle so delicate a situation.

If a human being's public persona becomes linked to what psychoanalyst Orstein has termed your own 'curative fantasy'--then you've guru-ized that person. The curative fantasy is active not merely at the level of conscious awareness, but also unconsciously. When someone seems magical to us, our curative fantasy has been engaged. And...we need not meet that individual in person for him or her to become a recipient of the energies activated by the 'curative fantasy.'

To give a vivid example, many Germans never met Hitler up close. But we have the newsreel footage of what happened and how the crowds went wild
during the Nuremberg rally. The curative fantasies of thousands, millions of people both present at that rally and throughout a nation listening on radios were projected upon one person, many of whom were never able to shake hands with the man.

That kind of fusion between someone's public persona and a searching individual's curative fantasy can happen while one is sitting at a computer terminal, too. Just because that bonding doesnt happen in the middle of a mob of people doesnt mean it cant happen to us. The internet has opened a new avenue for entreprenuers to crawl into the deep structure of our minds and fuse their script with hopes and dreams we dont even know we have.

Now getting closer to home--its interesting that BK's husband Stephen Mitchell has written a rather famous translation of the Tao Te Ching...

Anyway, IMO this whole post smacks of 'too much information.'

Are you sure you're not a BK facilitator....hoping to become one?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2008 04:57AM by corboy.

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corboy
And telling us we need to address our own' illogic' is just another way to pathologize those who disagree.

I strongly disagree. If someone is making invalid assumptions that "If THIS occurs, then it MUST mean THAT" (with no consideration for other evidence, factors, or interpretations) or "2+2=donkey" then it is those fallacies that should be addressed and clarified. I don't mind if someone has a different opinion than my own, or even if I'm the one found to be wrong. Sure, I may need to swallow my pride, but it is not my tendency to defend a position once it is shown to be untrue.

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BKistas constantly pathologize those who disagree.

Please don't group me into your idea of BKistas. Please see me as an individual.

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Take a very good look at all the posts written by The Anticult. He or she uses information with the utmost precision, breaks things down into paragraphs, clear line of reasoning.

I quoted plenty of stuff from literature written by and for mental health professionals about boundary issues and fiduciary responsibility--ethos of care. Plenty of logic in those.

Yes. I can definitely check that out and I'll be happy to discuss those points.

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If you've genuinely benefitted from BK, nothing, not even our puny little website, can take that away from you.

Aw... Don't be self-effacing now. :) I don't find this website to be puny at all.

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Youve invested plenty of attention, time and energy, enough to trigger and then maintain a transferance--to someone who has not been trained or licensed as a mental health professional and who would not know how to competantly handle so delicate a situation.

The way I understand transference is that it occurs when a person unconsciously dumps their emotional baggage that originated with a particular person onto someone else. Such as if a woman blames her husband for treating her abusively the way her father had. Or, if a son idolized his mother and from then on annoyingly put every potential marriage partner on a pedestal of perfection lavishing them with undue affection.

I can tell you, BK was not that for me. As for her not being a mental health professional, I never deluded myself into thinking she was. I never deluded myself into thinking she had a cure for my depression. In my mind's eye she had a system of simply inquiring into stressful thoughts. I never blindly adopted BK's points of view as gospel and absolute truth.

Way before ever coming across her, I had given up church and religion. I challenged my own preconceived notions and concepts of God, heaven, hell, salvation, etc. I form my own ideas and opinions on what feels true for me. You'll probably never see me write something like, "Well, I think this way because BK (or the Bible, or the Tao Te Ching, or my dad, or Bob Hope) says so..."

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If a human being's public persona becomes linked to what psychoanalyst Orstein has termed your own 'curative fantasy'--then you've guru-ized that person. The curative fantasy is active not merely at the level of conscious awareness, but also unconsciously. When someone seems magical to us, our curative fantasy has been engaged. And...we need not meet that individual in person for him or her to become a recipient of the energies activated by the 'curative fantasy.'

As far as curative fantasy, that would mean I would believe that BK can solve my emotional problems. I've never believed that. All I did was test The Work and, for me, it worked. There was no fantasy going on there. It was authentic realizations that the things I was stressing over I didn't need to stress over.

To quote Dr. Orstein: ''You see the same sort of fantasy in everyday life,'' Dr. Ornstein said. ''The idea that if I just get this job, or if only my wife would treat me in a certain way, or whatever, then my problems would be solved.'' _{http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE4DC1E38F932A35752C1A96E948260&sec=health&spon=&pagewanted=3}

I am completely opposite to that way of thinking... I don't think anything or anyone externally can solve my internal emotional issues.

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To give a vivid example, many Germans never met Hitler up close. But we have the newsreel footage of what happened and how the crowds went wild
during the Nuremberg rally. The curative fantasies of thousands, millions of people both present at that rally and throughout a nation listening on radios were projected upon one person, many of whom were never able to shake hands with the man. That kind of fusion between someone's public persona and a searching individual's curative fantasy can happen while one is sitting at a computer terminal, too. Just because that bonding doesnt happen in the middle of a mob of people doesnt mean it cant happen to us. The internet has opened a new avenue for entreprenuers to crawl into the deep structure of our minds and fuse their script with hopes and dreams we dont even know we have.

LOL And I probably would have been one of those Germans harboring Jews in my attic and denouncing Hitler's ridiculous notions...

I agree. No one can say for certain that they are absolutely immune to transference, curative fantasies, and crowd mentalities (not only is Hitler a good example, but so is the Salem Witch Trials...), but my tendency is to disassociate from the crowds and formulate my own opinions.

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Now getting closer to home--its interesting that BK's husband Stephen Mitchell has written a rather famous translation of the Tao Te Ching...

Are you implying something here??

Quote

Anyway, IMO this whole post smacks of 'too much information.'

Are you sure you're not a BK facilitator....hoping to become one?

I know I'm verbose. I'd rather overexplain and drive home my points than underexplain and have people assume I'm conveying things I'm not. People have a nasty tendency to do that.

And, no, I'm not a BK facilitator and have no desire to be one.

With respect,
Idunno

"Idunno", I don't see how you can say" I never 'guru-ized' BK" when you also say "I more or less revere her as a teacher" (gurus are revered, after all) and "I was hooked after the very first worksheet and have been doing The Work since then". Methinks you are lying to yourself.

But then Byron Katie is alleged to have said, "Everything I say is a lie" and I find some of the turnarounds to be outright lies. Like, how can someone truly believe in a turnaround like "I want my cancer to keep growing"? To me that is very sick thinking. And someone at Oprah.com who has survived cancer wrote in that she was absolutely horrified when she heard that turnaround pushed on a guy with terminal cancer in [one of the YouTube videos].

(Btw, I say that BK has said "Everything I say is a lie" because I've read Carol Skolnick use the quote in [her blog] and just this morning I read it another blog by someone named [Chris Attwood].)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2008 08:21PM by helpme2times.

. I never deluded myself into thinking she had a cure for my depression. In my mind's eye she had a system of simply inquiring into stressful thoughts. I never blindly adopted BK's points of view as gospel and absolute truth.


Well, you're very invested in defending BK here.

(Yawn)

helpme2times: I just watched the youtube video of Byron Katie with the man with terminal cancer. It was so painful to watch the whole way through. In fact I had to stop the video a couple of times. I made myself watch the whole thing because I wanted to witness her in action right to the bitter end.

I have reflected on what I saw and I can think of no reason whatsoever to force someone with terminal cancer to say the words: "I don't want my cancer to stop growing". Surely it is a betrayal of the Self on a very deep level to say such a thing.

Many of the other realizations in the video, such as a deeper appreciation and love for life often come to people who have serious illnesses. Usually those people do not give up on the desire to overcome their illness. They don't welcome the cancer and invite it deeper into their bodies and lives.

I watched another video titled 'I don't want to be fat'. Byron Katie tells the woman in the video that her mind is betraying her body by telling her that she is not beautiful. I know it has been said before but Byron Katie appears to have had facial plastic surgery. I don't understand how this can possibly jibe with her purported message.

I would like to thank corboy for the information about Dr. Orstein's 'curative fantasy' theories and the example of how people transferred their hopes and dreams onto a man such as Hitler. I found that absolutely fascinating and helpful in what happened with my own experience.

Idunno said: Way before ever coming across her [meaning BK], I had given up church and religion. I challenged my own preconceived notions and concepts of God, heaven, hell, salvation, etc. I form my own ideas and opinions on what feels true for me. You'll probably never see me write something like, "Well, I think this way because BK (or the Bible, or the Tao Te Ching, or my dad, or Bob Hope) says so..."

I would just like to say to idunno if they are still around that many of us who have been involved in cultic/ high demand group situations are also well-educated, intelligent and thoughtful individuals who have rejected traditional belief systems in the past and thought we had 'formed our own opinions' on 'what feels true' for us.

It doesn't mean that you are not able to be taken in by people who use mind control / thought reform techniques. Those techniques are often very sophisticated and cohesive in this day and age as have been described at length on this thread. In fact, that is the whole point and process of mind control ... to make you feel happy and comfortable with ideas / beliefs that you would otherwise reject.

It is usually necessary to have some understanding of mind-control techniques in order to see where and how they are being applied. I would recommend idunno to do some more reading from the recommended books on this site.

I think some of the conflicted feelings that idunno describes are common with cult / high demand group members. Even for myself I still think, "Oh, but there was this positive aspect of my group and that positive experience." The experience of being in a cult is not all black and white. If it was completely negative, people would not stay in as long as they often do.

Unfortunately those positive feelings and experiences often mask the fact that the group leader is overtly or covertly encouraging people to think of them alone as the one true link to the Divine, and their philosophy or theory as the one true way to gain enlightenment or whatever else they are offering.

Usually when you look more closely, the philosophy or theory being offered is just some watered down / corrupted version of mainstream spiritual or psychological ideas or techniques combined with a whole lot of mind-control.

You will see this clearly if you read this thread properly. Anti-cult has explained time and time again how Byron Katie uses hypnosis, Neuro-linguistic programming and a whole other arsenal of techniques to de-stabillize and individual's sense of self.

It has also been explained here many times that much more beneficial and ultimately long-lasting results for personal happiness can be achieved through scientifically-based psychological methods such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

If it's spiritual development that you are interested in, there are plenty of well-established and recognised spiritual traditions that have a proper system of checks and balances in place to assist the seeker to achieve their goals safely.

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solea13
helpme2times: I just watched the youtube video of Byron Katie with the man with terminal cancer. It was so painful to watch the whole way through. In fact I had to stop the video a couple of times. I made myself watch the whole thing because I wanted to witness her in action right to the bitter end.

I have reflected on what I saw and I can think of no reason whatsoever to force someone with terminal cancer to say the words: "I don't want my cancer to stop growing". Surely it is a betrayal of the Self on a very deep level to say such a thing.

Hi Solea13, did you notice that the guy very firmly stated he did NOT want the cancer to grow, but she prodded him away from his natural (and I think healthy) first response? In front of an audience no less. I think most people sitting up on that stage would feel pressure to please the audience as well as BK. And most if not all of the audience very much wants "the work" to work.

I think it's unconscionable that she would use a dying person to further her cause, aka her pocketbook.