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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and the School of Lies
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: September 07, 2008 05:14AM

beware of Byron Katie promoters, (who of course say they are NOT BK promoters), who say things like...

"everything needed to do The Work is given away for free".

That is the same when Byron Katie, and others say, "The Work is freely given".

Notice how BK's wording is much more tricky...
And notice how those who promote BK will brazenly lie to promote their products.
For them to say that everything needed to do The Work is given away for free, is a brazen self-conscious lie. Any person with even the tiniest shred of integrity in them could not say something like that. Its fraud.

The tiny part of The Work that Byron Katie puts out there, is like the worm on the end of a fish-hook. So its like saying a fisherman gives worms freely to the fishes. Yes, so he can hook them, and then reel them in, then make some money at the market.
So you are the fish, and they are telling you..."hey, look at that free worm over there, go and eat it, don't worry, there is not a hook hidden in the worm, just take a bite".
(TM also "gives" away a hook, as well as Scientology, and many other cults).

Its similar to those who say Byron Katie was "spoiled by success". Not quite. This is exactly what she always wanted, to rake in millions of dollars a month in profit.


It would be like saying everything to do CBT is given away for free. No it isn't. Even a book is not going to teach a person how to do CBT properly for serious issues, that would require at least 10-20 sessions with a certified pro, which could cost a few thousand dollars, hopefully covered by insurance. So CBT people don't go around spreading lies that you can learn to do serious CBT for free, that would be fraud.

But notice how Byron Katie sends out some BK "coaches" to say The Work is free, yet at the same time BK liberates $30,000 off a person in one weekend. Its the exact same Byron Katie approach of mind-splitting opposites. I bet she even says The Work is free, and the $30,000 is just a "gift".
She loves messing with people's minds on the deepest level, and doing surgery on their souls, without their awareness.
So far, I have only seen 1 BK person who had even the most basic level of honesty to them, and they quit posting. Every other majot Byron Katie blogger, and even poster here, has been quite skilled at using language to try and manipulate reality, and twist it to their advantage. Skilled liars, basicially. That is what Byron Katie really teaches people, how to lie, to themselves, and others.
She wants to teach people to not be able to see the moon in the sky...literally...as she admits in the book Losing The Moon.

Don't be fooled by the BK propagandists.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 07, 2008 06:48AM

Regarding Ornstein's curative fantasy, there is a paper I am itching to get my hands on.

Another author has taken Ornstein's concept of 'curative fantasy and developed that concept further--by inviting psychotherapists to enhance their own self insight (self-supervision) by examining their own curative fantasies.

The spotlight is turned upon the powerholder in this exchange.

And..ponder the implications here.

Dr Shaffer is urging psychotherapists to make themselves accountable in yet another area. These are people who have been through training analyses and clinical supervision. And Shaffer is warning 'em that continued self scrutiny is still necessary, long after one has graduated from school.

These are the folks who, unlike BK, admit fallibility by carrying liability insurance, and have put themselves through clinical programs and who can be tracked by license numbers, by anyone who wants to check them out.

Quote

The analyst embarking on training often harbors strong, unconscious convictions about the nature of cure.

The sense of what is curative may have multiple derivations and is often closely related to unconscious motivations for entering the field.

These curative fantasies often endure, dismantled by neither the analyst's own analysis nor by training.

Instead, they persist and influence clinical choice.

Maturation as an analyst therefore requires a self-supervisory grappling with the differences between what feels curative and publicly held theories of therapeutic action. Supervision should recognize the strength of the analyst's curative leanings and should foster the self-supervision requisite for the analyst to know and gradually ...(abstract breaks off here. Anyone interested needs to track this down at a medical library or order it online from PEP

[www.pep-web.org]

Abstract from:

The Analyst's Curative Fantasies: Implications for Supervision and Self-Supervision by Amy Schaffer, Ph.D. (2006). Contemporary Psychoanalysis, (2006) 42:349-366

'They (curative fantasies) persist and influence clinical choice.'

Dr Shaffer does not say so, but it may also influence why certain people despite professional training succumb to flattery by gurus and start using untested 'fad' methods in thier work..to the detriment of clients.

And these unexamined curative fantasies may also lead others to be attracted to LGATs as a career, to guru-ing as a career, to be attracted to offering total solutions. Certain curative fantasies may make the humble and gradual solutions of therapy seem not enough--one demands total solutions--for oneself--and then demands the whole world be converted, too!

What about the unconscious curative fantasies that lead folks to create and lead LGATs?

What about unconscious curative fantasies so urgent that you'll feel entitled to pound people with questions on videotape as BK has reportedly done, until they allow their predicaments to be crammed into the BK box?

(I met a lawyer who no longer practices---and he'd graduated Order of the Coif from one of the top five law schools in the nation, then clerked for a federal judge. Ace material, here. He confessed he got out of the profession partly because he disliked hammering people with questions. He discovered he was treating them exactly the way his own nagging mother had treated him when growing up. He did not feel entitled to pound on people that way.)

Those must be pretty jolly powerful. Yet these folks are in a set up that, unlike psychotherapists, evades self scrutiny in powerholders. LGAT leaders dont publish and read journals with articles of the kind Shaffer has written. There are no trade journals for gurus and LGAT leaders with articles that tell such people 'Examine your counter transferance' or 'Narcissistic issues for Forum Leaders.'

No, no. The problems are all in the poor zlubs who are processed through the courses. They bear the shadow of the LGAT leader and bear the burden of enacting the unconscious curative fantasy of the human potential guru!

And the guru never, ever has to face him or herself in the mirror.

No training analysis required. No board certification needed. No need to carry malpractice insurance--for a guru or human potential empress can do no wrong. Just get a lawyer to create the right set of forms for your
devotees to sign off on and your ass is covered.

So....look at these words: "Maturation as an analyst therefore requires a self-supervisory grappling with *the differences* between what feels curative and publicly held theories of therapeutic action. "

Just because something feels curative, does not mean it is actually curative to one's patients.

Or that one has benefitted oneself.

'But I experienced this!'

Experience can be deceptive. I had the flu and had fevers that spiked to 103/104 F. I saw it on the thermometer. But I FELT cold to the bone. I was
rolling up in blankets, blasting the heat on high.

My body was creating chemicals that fooled my brain and body into feeling ice cold, when my tempreture was sky high.

Experience can be totally deceptive.

Now, what about the legions of human potential entreneurs/ueses and self enlightened gurus who have curative fantasies so very strong that they are driven to heal the whole planet?

Shaffer wrote this for the benefit of therapists and analysts who are merely working in a particular city, in a single state or nation, who are busy grappling with HIPAA confidentiality rules, taking continuing education courses, and filling out forms for their client's insurance companies and HMOs.

Real therapists have to do all this---and if they find the time to read Dr Shaeffer's article, keep track of thier own curative fantasies and make sure wishful thinking generated by unexamined curative fantasies, does not lead them-trained therapists---to get enamored of interpretations, methodologies or fads that could harm, rather than benefit their patients.

But...what about BK?

What about Oprah?

What about Eckie Tolle?

What about Werner Erhard?

What was there to ensure that they ever questioned and humbly applied insight to their own curative fantasies?

What was there to ensure that each of these persons has any incentive to ask, 'is there a difference between what feels beneficial to me, and whether this is actually benefitting the people I apply this to?'

Unlike trained therapists, none of these persons has ever reportedly completed a clinical training program in mental health counseling, or received the necessary number of hours of training analysis or clinical supervision.

Their fantasies could run unchecked.

And it is interesting that in the one tiny corner of cyberspace where this question is asked---we get demands to justify our 'illogic'.

A curative fantasy has to be a very fragile thing if it cannot permit one tiny corner of disagreement to exist anywhere in cyberspace. Milllions of devotees are blogging BK's praises.

Isnt that enough to prop her curative fantasy up?

If not, the lady is apparenty troubled by some sense of lack, and is not satisfied with 'what is'---despite her proclaimation of enlightenment via cockroach.

Instead of asking RR.com to examine its illogic, why not ask why one's curative fantasy is so fragile that RR.com's illogic should matter so very much---and not be ignored with a smile?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2008 07:14AM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: September 07, 2008 09:27PM

Quote
corboy
[snip]

And it is interesting that in the one tiny corner of cyberspace where this question is asked---we get demands to justify our 'illogic'.

A curative fantasy has to be a very fragile thing if it cannot permit one tiny corner of disagreement to exist anywhere in cyberspace. Milllions of devotees are blogging BK's praises.

Isnt that enough to prop her curative fantasy up?

If not, the lady is apparenty troubled by some sense of lack, and is not satisfied with 'what is'---despite her proclaimation of enlightenment via cockroach.

Instead of asking RR.com to examine its illogic, why not ask why one's curative fantasy is so fragile that RR.com's illogic should matter so very much---and not be ignored with a smile?
What a great post. And a great question at the end there...

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 07, 2008 11:39PM

Curative reality is different from curative fantasy.

Curative reality speaks for itself.

Curative fantasy needs to be propped up and validated.

The more of a difference between curative fantasy and reality, the more
validation it demands and the less tolerance for dissent or doubt.

I came down with double pneumonia following influenza. After five days and nights of chills and fevers and night sweats, I finally recognized I was not getting any better.

The doc prescribed me an antibiotic.

In 24 hours my fever was gone, I coughed up some junk, and slept normally. I took the medication according to instructions, read the package insert to make sure I avoided anything that could neutralize /interact with the antibiotic and finished every pill in the bottle.

Felt like I'd escaped from hell. The fever never returned. I recovered.

Yet, two years later I met a woman in my neighborhood who had been prescribed that same antibiotic. It gave her disabling, life threatening neurological side effects. She was limping and in dark glasses for months.

I heard her description of what she had been through and was horrified.

Yet...this woman's dreadful side effects and disability from Antiobiotic X did NOT in any way diminish or disrupt my own experience--and my own deep gratitude--for having been healed by this same medication.

The medication that healed me and so many other persons (or else it would not still be on the market and not a treatment of choice for community acquired pneumonia)...it nevertheless does give a tiny percentage of people atypical and drastic side effects.

What my neighbor went through was just as real as what I experienced. I didnt feel any need to disbelieve her.

What I had experienced was a curative reality, not a fragile, easily disrupted, curative fantasy.

A curative reality speaks for itself.

A curative fantasy requires endless validation and zero dissent. And the presence of doubt, even in a tiny corner of cyberspace, such as RR.com, is considered intolerable.

That is a vital difference between curative fantasy and curative reality.

And the reason why drugs and treatment strategies are tested and why mental health professionals go to school and suffer through classes on statistics and research design (Cook and Campbell, anyone?) is so that
they can read journals and know whether a drug or a treatment modality is
backed up by research and has benefits that outweigh the risks and that its benefits are statistically significant---that the improvement or cure rate is at least 25% greater than could be accounted for by random good luck.

In short, research is not meant to take the fun out of life.

Its to help us tell the difference between curative fantasy and curative reality.

And...so that if a treatment has more benefits than risks, so that the risks can still be itemized in the package insert so that people will be able to identify as soon as possible whether something is going wrong and stop taking that drug.

To the extent that a treatment is effective, it is going to be enough of an intervention that there are potential risks.

And on RR.com we talk about potential risks--the reality of life that is contained in package inserts.

Antibiotic X saved me from having to go to the hospital and it probably saved my life. I didnt need to convince myself this was so. I discovered it
physically.

Over six days I was getting weaker.

The night I waited for for the first tablet to kick in, the pneumonia marched further, my breathing constricted and I spent that last night sitting upright in bed because I could no longer breathe lying flat. My lungs were starting to fill with fluid. By morning Pill #1 took effect and I began to breathe more freely and my tempreture dropped.


I dont have to do an argument to myself to be convinced that the medication saved my ass.

So...I am not going to demand that my next door neighbor, who suffered a dreadful and rare set of side effects from Antibiotic X, justify her illogic.

Her being hurt and disabled by Antibiotic X does not take away from my having been helped by Antibiotic X.

What Antibiotic X did for me was curative reality.

What Antibiotic X did to my neighbor was diabling side effects.

It was powerful enough to help many, many people. But for a tiny percentage, a tiny teensy percentage of persons, Antibiotic X has side effects that though rare, are just as real as its more common place benefits.

What my neighbor went through does not cancel out my healing and my healing does not invalidate her suffering and disability.

Our two experiences are equally real and can co-exist. I dont have to shout her down. She doesnt have to shout me down.

And...I most certainly am not going to suggest to her that she 'turn it around.'

.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2008 11:50PM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Negative Hallucinations
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: September 08, 2008 02:22AM

Its interesting how the main Byron Katie PR people, (who are generally doing The Work to pay The Mortgage) all have very similar tactics. They must be trained in these tactics as they get further into the world of Byron Katie.

One of the main tactics they use, is to minimize and deflect from what Byron Katie says. They try to whitewash it. Its very clear in many areas that Byron Katie literally wants to reprogram your entire sense of "reality". Its not some little self-help technique. She wants to literally reprogram what you consider Reality and your entire "Self". She literally wants to get people to the point that they cannot see the actual moon in the sky, as she says in her book Losing The Moon. (hence the title of the book). So its very serious stuff, its installing delusions into people, which can be done.
Meanwhile, you have the BK propagandists who try to whitewash that, so people are not suspicious.

Its the same as Scientology who offer people on the street a bogus "Stress Test" which is just a way to get their hands into you. Or TM who offer a "mantra" to destress you.
They all use a similar method.
And so does Byron Katie. The Worksheets, and online stuff serve the same purpose, to lure people in as they surf the internet, as opposed to walking down the street.
The dozens of BK Blogs serve the same purpose, almost all of them are from people who are doing The Work to make The Cash. Notice also as pointed out many times before in this thread, many of those people are all hypnotists who see what Katie is doing to people.

So these people who try to say that Byron Katie is offering some little technique to reduce stress, literally are lying, and they know it. They know Byron Katie is really about turning your sense of "reality" inside out and backwards and upside down until you can't see the moon in the sky. They also know if they tell people that upfront, they will become suspicious and this will block the hypnotic techniques of persuasion. So they have to deceive you, to try to make you "trust" them. Its a very old method, bait and switch.

Notice also even in this thread, there have been several people who pretend they know nothing about Byron Katie other than a few worksheets, yet each time it turns out they are lying and they know a lot about Byron Katie?
Notice also the recent person who is saying they have not attended a Byron Katie LGAT, yet they know all about Byron Katie? How can they know about something they say they know nothing about?
More lies.

Lets remember, many of these groups have dozens of internet propagandists who just go around spreading disinformation and lies in support of the Mothership and their own pocketbook.
The BK blogs out there truly are heinous, as they all feed off eachother, by design.
One hopes too many people aren't being duped and sent into bankruptcy by the lies of Byron Katie's internet propagandists. The irony does fit perfectly with the Byron Katie patterns of saying something that is the opposite to reality. They try to tell people The Work is free, yet the irony is you are never going to pay more dearly for anything than The Work. Before the moon rises in the sky, people are dropping thousands of dollars and giving Byron Katie tens of thousands of dollars.
But it does fit perfectly with the Byron Katie method of making people believe The Work is freely given, while those same people are giving Byron Katie every dollar they have and can borrow, tens of thousands of dollars.

So they have to try and cover that up, by pretending it doesn't happen. By trying to train people to not see the bright full moon in the sky. In hypnosis, that is called a negative hallucination, not seeing what is there before your eyes, that is one of many techniques Byron Katie uses.
Search Google for...

Negative Hallucination



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2008 02:39AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 08, 2008 09:15PM

Troll Count as of September 8th 2008

Daphne, Anticultist, ralpher, Randomstu, prsp (or something like that)
Ex Scientology Kid, cultcity and Idunno.

As in people who really invested serious effort on the BK thread.

And..Idunno wanted us to treat him or her as an individual.

That reads strangely from someone who adores a leader who processes everyone through the same method and doesnt treat people as individuals at all.

To treat someone as an individual, you have to respect their story.

BK does not respect people's stories. She teaches that you must ditch your story.

What she does not teach is that she will replace your unique story, with her story.

Take BK and you will LOSE YOUR INDIVIDUALITY.

So its weird for someone who has sacrificed their individuality to BK (by abandoning their personal story and letting BK download her story into their inner landscape) to then show up here on RR.com and demand
'treat me as an individual', when your leader has no regard for anyone's individuality.

RR.com exists to protect and affirm individuality-and that is why groups and leaders like BK who are anti-individuality cant stand it.

Remember, only BK's story matters. You are told all about the halfway house, her cockroach and she continues to talk about her illnesses in public--something no mental health professional ever would do. A genuine therapist doesnt inflict disclosures about his or her health upon clients, because a therapist does NOT want clients to re-enact the role of parenting their caregiver.

So, BK is free to get people to listen to her by telling them her story and she tells yet other stories as part of her talks, such as the washing machine story.

But...you have to give up your personal story. Its a double standard.

Here is an old post that may be relevant--especially given that 'Idunno' wanted us here on RR.com to question our own 'illogic'.

Quote


So, just to assist in sorting out persons genuinely interested in an adult discussion from those only willing to discuss BK from within her own system, here are some tools from professor Steve Dutch:

This is a test to see whether a logical discussion is even possible between two parties. It is from Professor Steve Dutch's website.

[www.uwgb.edu]

"A Note to Visitors (to Professor Dutch's website):

I will respond to questions and comments as time permits, but if you want to take issue with any position expressed here, you first have to answer this question:

What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?

I simply will not reply to challenges that do not address this question.

Refutability is one of the classic determinants of whether a theory can be called scientific. Moreover, I have found it to be a great general-purpose cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in serious intellectual inquiry or just playing mind games."

And…

Another gentle reminder from Professor Dutch:

[www.uwgb.edu]

Freedom of Speech

'The Constitution gives you the right to free speech. It gives your critics the right to rebut your claims or ignore you.

'As the late Hubert Humphrey once observed during the Sixties: "The right to free speech does not imply the right to be taken seriously. That depends on what is said."

'Nowhere in the Constitution is anyone guaranteed a right to freedom from criticism.'

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Trolls
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: September 08, 2008 10:32PM

Quote
corboy
Troll Count as of September 8th 2008

Daphne, Anticultist, ralpher, Randomstu, prsp (or something like that)
Ex Scientology Kid, cultcity and Idunno.
I found more trolls in this thread (may have missed some):

golfer6716
eduardo
Jon Willis
al3r
Gee
screddy57
Daphne
Remi
douglas_goodall

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and dishonesty
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: September 09, 2008 12:10AM

Notice also that basically every single BK promoter has been busted being dishonest, right in the thread.
If you meet anyone who is "really into" Byron Katie, you would be wise to verify everything they claim or say. Basically, in essense, Byron Katie trains people to lie.
Lie to themselves, and lie to others.
They end up believing there is no reality other than what you say, so they can lie without any remorse at all.

Of course, for most normal people, they will have guilt for lying to people, and those folks will drop out of the Byron Katie system.

But for those who stay inside the Byron Katie system for more than a year or two, or who are involved with BKI or with BK Coaching...watch out. They have no regard for telling the truth.
For them, the ends justify the means, so they will say anything to bring you in.

For example, the nonsense that The Work is "free" and you can just do the Worksheets, is a blatant lie. Anyone with common sense can see that. If that was "true" then why does Katie have all the seminars, books, DVD's, Coachings, 100 Day programs, and everything else?
Because the Worksheets make people WORSE, and they lure you deeper into the BK system. The entire thing is designed to groom and lure you in deeper and deeper, like a slipperly slope into the rabbit hole.
If you are vulnerable enough, you may find yourself on your knees before Byron Katie in tears in a parking lot on YouTube. You may find yourself "giving" Byron Katie $11,000, when your kids can't afford to go to the dentist, and you are losing your home.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work), dishonesty, Carol Skolnick
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: September 09, 2008 12:26AM

Quote
The Anticult
But for those who stay inside the Byron Katie system for more than a year or two, or who are involved with BKI or with BK Coaching...watch out. They have no regard for telling the truth.
For them, the ends justify the means, so they will say anything to bring you in.
Regarding that, here is one of Carol Skolnick's recent blog entries:

[[url=http://soulsurgery.blogspot.com/2008/09/katie-ism-and-your-response-is.html]A Katie-ism and Your Response is...?[/url]]

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work), dishonesty, Carol Skolnick
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: September 09, 2008 09:14AM

yeah, Carol Skolnick is a real trickster, probably learned a lot of stuff from her past cult experience, and then from Katie herself.
That is a double-trick.

The first trick is Katie trying to lure people in with confusing statements, that is used in hypnosis to create confusion before a Suggestion.
Then Carol Skolnick promotes the statement, and uses questions to lure people in.

One can be certain that the angry wrath of Byron Katie is felt by those in her inner circle. Of course, after she rages at people, she would the next day tell them it was not "real" anger, it was just their own projection, blah blah.
Like Guru's who fake getting seriously ill when they start getting busted for misdeeds...they tell their followers their Bad Karma is making the Guru sick.

Byron Katie is such a scammer, pretending she is Enlightened and beyond the human condition...talk about Losing The Moon of reality.
Her, and Tolle, and many others all sell the same BS, faking they are enlightened beings...sadly some naive people seem to believe them.

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