for any new folks, there is a seperate thread here which is just about ole Eckhart Tolle.
This thread has evolved to focus pretty much only on Byron Katie...other than the title of the thread!
I would vote to try and keep this thread about Byron Katie, and the other thread about Eckhart Tolle, just to make it easier to reference...


The Power of Now - Eckhart Tolle (thread)
[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2008 11:27PM by The Anticult.

Sounds good to me. :-)

Quote
The Anticult
for any new folks, there is a seperate thread here which is just about ole Eckhart Tolle.
This thread has evolved to focus pretty much only on Byron Katie...other than the title of the thread!
I would vote to try and keep this thread about Byron Katie, and the other thread about Eckhart Tolle, just to make it easier to reference...

The Power of Now - Eckhart Tolle (thread)
[forum.culteducation.com]

and thanks for that greeting. well, by no means was I EVER coerced by Tolle followers or anything like that. I found myself listening to his "Power of Now" back in 2003 as I was going through some emotional upheavals. On a purely "common sense" level, his ideas about "centering" can be useful. yet there's nothing new here. ALOT of rehashed Alan Watts, "buddhism", and Christianity.

Eventually I read "A New Earth" and things got more complicated.

"If the history of humanity were the clinical case history of a single human being, the diagnosis would have to be: chronic paranoid delusions, a pathological propensity to commit murder and acts of extreme violence and cruelty against his perceived "enemies" - his own unconsciousness projected outward. Criminally insane, with a few brief lucid intervals."
-Tolle, A New Earth, p.11-12

SCIEN-TOLLE-GEE!!! :)

no, reread that drivel! it comes with all the fervour of a fundamentalist labelling "the others".
A few brief lucid intervals!?!?! how he completely negates all the mother love shown on this planet!

He's all about "diminishing" the ego, YET, he seeks to accomplish this with the aid of a woman who publishes her Own magazine, with HER picture on the cover EVERY MONTH, aptly named "O".

I can't quite define it. I get a bad vibe from all of this...

The one here, and a 20 plus page discussion thread in the Large Groups section of the message board. Each thread contains some information not available in the other, so both should to be read together by those who are interested.

[forum.culteducation.com]

If anything good can come out of this Byron Katie waking hypnosis nightmare, its that the tools she is abusing were originally created to help people. The methods can be used for people to help themselves, and not just get lured into some weird culty group, and hand over their wedding rings, money, and everything else to some dangerous unlicensed psychotherapeutic crackpot like Byron Katie.

All of this Byron Katie business made me review a lot of Ericksonian hypnosis material, and look at a recent book with entries by Milton Erickson's children called...

"Milton H. Erickson, M.D.: An American Healer" by Betty Alice Erickson.

This book even includes an old DVD of Milton Erickson filmed by Gregory Bateson, doing a session, and shows Milton Erickson's brilliance. You can see him even in this clip NOT telling a person what to think, but allowing the person to find their own way in their own Unconscious. The man was a genius, and a decent human. The key with Dr. Milton Erickson, as made very clearly his own children in this book, is that the man was ETHICAL, he helped people, and only charged $40 hr, even with a group of students. He was a licensed professional, who was RESPONSIBLE for his work with people, like any licensed therapist. He treated serious cases, and was LICENSED to do so.



Then you have years later, the hucksters, scammers, and con-artists moving in, and taking some of his material, and abusing it, and using it as a INFLUENCE WEAPON against people to make huge sums of money.
The use of indirect, permissive, symbolic, metaphorical suggestion in waking hypnosis...which is mostly what Byron Katie does, with a lot of other stuff thrown in as well.

Byron Katie is not licensed to walk a dog, never mind open up people's Trauma's. At some point its going to have to be illegal for people to do what these LGAT people like Byron Katie are doing to people. They have to make it ILLEGAL to get people to sign those disclaimers, and they have to be regulated. You can't do surgery without a license, why can Byron Katie mess around with TRAUMA without a license? Who is going to care for people who go suicidal, as many of them will?



What else is interesting about the book above, is that the publisher got Anthony Robbins to write a blurb for the book cover. (to try and sell more books, of course). You see, Tony Robbins learned all of this same Ericksonian hypnosis material personally from Richard Bandler. Tony Robbins just "took" all of the ideas from Richard Bandler, and then just changed the titles around. Eventually Tony Robbins made Bandler shut-up about the plagiarism by sending him lots of money. (Bandler has often told this story openly in the past). Most people have no idea that Tony Robbins abuses many of the exact same techniques, just with a different style.



MORE GURUPHILIAC disingenuousness?
Its too bad that even people who are supposed to expose bad Gurus, close their eyes to reality. For example, Guruphiliac seems to be completely literal minded when he chooses to be.
He pretends, (hopefully he is pretending) that he cannot see that when a hypnotist says something as a negation, that is a Creation in the subjects mind. Everyone knows that.

Its like if I say to you...."I am NOT like that purple elephant hovering above your head right now..."
The "not" does not register, and the elephant appears.
So when Byron Katie says something like.."I am not a God, Guru, or Christ", in hypnosis she is doing the EXACT OPPOSITE, and FUSING her voice to the projection of those Gods in people's minds. Very basic 3rd grade stuff a 12 year old kid could understand.
Guruphiliac must know that, and pretends he does not. Or if he does not even know that, then maybe its time to close up shop. It's truly pathetic to see a guy like Guruphiliac either deliberately, or through ignorance, try to misdirect people off the trail of Byron Katie. (this is referring to some recent comments he made on his blog about Byron Katie not saying she was like a God, or whatever. Very convenient semantics, while ignoring the purple elephant in the room).
When people put themselves out there as "experts" on "Gurus" then they had better be honest, or if they are completely clueless in the very basics of unconscious persuasion, then its time to do some research, or close the store.



Anyway, don't let these unlicensed, dangerous, destructive people like Byron Katie spoil your love of wonderful schools of practice like that created by Dr. Milton Erickson. His beautiful and ethical Teaching Tales, and uses of metaphors and symbols can be used, even just within yourself, to create more generativity in your life. Its a shame these cons and crooks have abused his work to such an extreme degree. You have no idea how OUTRAGEOUS it is, until you really see the context of the original work.

Just like a criminal can use the tools from a surgeon to rob people and cut them up and scar them for life, like a Byron Katie..

...in the hands of a licensed professional, those same tools can save lives and heal.


Don't let the bastards, crooks, and cons get you down. Hopefully natural karma will give them their just desserts in the fullness of time.
There is some evidence that those who abuse hypnotic Suggestion on subjects, can experience direct aggressive defensive behaviors from that subject. One can see Byron Katie try to mitigate this response, by her constant metaphors of your "struggles" and preaching passivity towards her, and to drop your guard.
NEVER DROP YOUR GUARD TO BYRON KATIE.
EVER.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2008 01:15PM by The Anticult.

Quote
The Anticult
If anything good can come out of this Byron Katie waking hypnosis nightmare, its that the tools she is abusing were originally created to help people. The methods can be used for people to help themselves, and not just get lured into some weird culty group, and hand over their wedding rings, money, and everything else to some dangerous unlicensed psychotherapeutic crackpot like Byron Katie.

All of this Byron Kati
NEVER DROP YOUR GUARD TO BYRON KATIE.
EVER.

Enjoy and agree with much of what your saying, anti-cult, but it's time to get over the attacks on Guruphiliac. You guys had a disagreement, Jody got over, it, you seemed to get over it, it's settled. Time to move on...

You are hurting your own cause (MY cause as well) by including Jody in your attacks on Katie. Stick to the bad guys like Katie and Tolle, there are so many of them and so few like Jody who have the guts to question ANY of these cretins!

It would be like a critic of Reverend Moon spending weeks attacking Rick Ross because they didn't consider him harsh enough on Moon. Why spend the energy on that and not on Moon or his ilk?

I'm not attacking Guruphiliac personally...I think its terrific he criticizes all of these Sri Sri Rama-lama Ding-Dong fraud Gurus. That's good.

And its good he criticizes Eckhart Tolle, as the media has given Eckhart Tolle a free pass. But Byron Katie actually appears to be far worse than Eckhart Tolle, in terms of her methods and organization.
Why is he so harsh on Tolle and so confused on Katie?
A few people mentioned Guruphiliac made some recent comments in his thread about Byron Katie, so I glanced at it. The guy is either out to lunch in this area, or is trying to play mind-games due to his friendships. I say its the latter.
When it comes to Byron Katie, people who make erroneous comments like Guruphiliac did about "God" are VERY harmful. They are NOT helpful. Its very dangerous, that is why it needs to be pointed out.
Guruphiliac said he would go after BK if she said she was a God, or that her Work is the way to God, etc.
Well, she HAS done that, many many times, only just in powerful indirect and permissive ways, which is much more powerful, and much more effective.
So the comments made by Guruphiliac are VERY DANGEROUS to vulnerable people, which is why they need to be pointed out.
Its a free country and he can say what he likes. He might be terrific criticizing the Old-School Gurus, but he is either missing the boat on the New & Improved post-modern Guru's, or he is tainted on this issue due to friendships and interests.

For example, many DECADES ago, the New Guru's learned that its better to NOT actually say you are a God, Christ, Saint, etc.
They have techniques like...

They put you in a DEEP and PROFOUND waking Trance which is just a state of focussed attention, just by normal speaking over hours and days. They then might give you an exercise like IMAGINING the attributes of Christ, or Buddha, or Mother Theresa. They get you to imagine those people in a chair for maybe 30 minutes in a live seminar, doing various psycho-exercises.
Then they casually SIT DOWN in that same chair,while doing a type of hand-movement or Voice-Cue from NLP that they have Pre-Anchored and Pre-framed into the audience. You can actually WATCH and SEE the unconscious awe sweep through the crowd, and their unconscious associates the modern Guru with Christ, Buddha, Saints and everyone else.

So then guess what? Even when the Guru DENIES they are like a God, the audience automatically starts to BELIEVE they ARE a God, and they don't even know why! They think it must be true as they FEEL it, and the more they deny it, the stronger it gets.
They have dozens of indirect techniques like this, which are probably 100x more powerful than the old-school Guru stuff they used to do in the late 1960's. That was 50 years ago.

Byron Katie does this type of thing all the time. That's basically ALL she does.
She also says...OTHERS say she is a Saint or Master, which is the same thing. Her husband Stephen Mitchell also says she is a Saint, Savant and Master, so does Carol Skolnick, and many others.
Katie's entire system is organized around making her followers believe she is some type of Enlightened Divine Being. So all Katie does 24/7 is make others think she is a type of God-Being, using very sophisticated techniques. Even on YouTube some woman was on her knees crying before Katie in a parking lot!!
So Guruphiliac SHOULD be all over Byron Katie like a pig in shit.
So Guruphiliac might be ok for Old-School Gurus, but if someone knows him personally, and he is legit, then take the guy out for a beer, and have a talk with him, and educate him about all these post-modern methods which started in the 1980's, (when Katie started) which are 100x more powerful than people who claim they are a God directly, like an old-fashioned Rama Lama Ding-Dong from 1965.
Its far more powerful to claim you are NOT a guru, and NOT a divine being, which make them believe you are. Its not even that hard to do, once you know the Tech.

The people today, like Byron Katie are 100x more dangerous and subtle than the Old-School Guru's.
Why?
Because they have erased the restraints from classical religion, that some of the old-school guru's still had. There is no morality left in it.

Byron Katie is a master indirect hypnotist. I did some research this week, and there is evidence that hypnosis does not work well going against your Values. This is why Byron Katie tries to CHANGE YOUR VALUES right from her first CD. She knows if she can change them, then the Suggestions will work much better.
Also, the lack of sleep, and low-calories also makes people more suggestible...they learned that in the 1950's experiments. It just goes on and on.

Byron Katie tells stories about her children, and those stories are not just about her "children fighting". They are about YOUR INTERNAL STRUGGLE whether or not to surrender to Katie LIKE AN ADULT CHILD, and she gives you the answer, which is YES.

In a book about Dr. Milton Erickson, called "My Voice Will Go With You" by Sidney Rosen from 1982...
[www.amazon.com]
(much of this stuff is available on the Torrent networks as well)

on page 91, there is a story about a woman named Kathy who has a phobia about vomiting. Its a very complex INDIRECT hypnotic story, using SEEDING, LONG-TERM POST-HYPNOTIC SUGGESTION, REFRAMING, and many other techniques, all of which Byron Katie uses!
And its very interesting, as Erickson modfies this woman's name to KATHLEEN and deals with VOMITING. People who know about Byron Katie (Kathleen) also know her seminars have a vomiting component to them! This book is from 1982, which is the exact same time period.
So there is a deep (warped and perverted) connection to Ericksonian Hypnotherapy and Byron Katie.
Did Byron Katie get treated by Erickson in the late 1970's? Or did she just learn it second hand from books by others? Basically everything she does is based on it. That is what all of her "Stories" are about and how they operate.
Regardless, she learned it, copied it, and she uses it in the most unethical and abusive way one can imagine. Its the worst abuse of Ericksonian style indirect hypnosis I have personally studied.

Part of the outrage here, is Ericksonian Hypnotherapy is so powerful and beautiful, and useful in the correct hands. Erickson's "Stories" are about nature and plants, and healing...its incredible stuff. To see something so beautiful turned upside down and inside out, and used to do the opposite of its original intent...unspeakable...one can draw many metaphors....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2008 02:29AM by The Anticult.

I think that Guruphiliac has been dubiously helpful in educating people about Byron Katie. While he did start out saying, "It's all seeming quite culty to us," he shortly afterward did an about-face, after consulting with his friend, a "formerly inside-man" to BK's operation: "...at least it's not the cult indoctrination operation it seemed to the person who wrote the message board post."

Oh please.

I agree with Anti-Cult that whenever Jody denies BK's harmfulness, it is "VERY DANGEROUS to vulnerable people" and "it needs to be pointed out".

Quote
The Anticult
I'm not attacking Guruphiliac personally...I think its terrific he criticizes all of these Sri Sri Rama-lama Ding-Dong fraud Gurus. That's good.

And its good he criticizes Eckhart Tolle, as the media has given Eckhart Tolle a free pass. But Byron Katie actually appears to be far worse than Eckhart Tolle, in terms of her methods and organization.
Why is he so harsh on Tolle and so confused on Katie?
A few people mentioned Guruphiliac made some recent comments in his thread about Byron Katie, so I glanced at it. The guy is either out to lunch in this area, or is trying to play mind-games due to his friendships. I say its the latter.
When it comes to Byron Katie, people who make erroneous comments like Guruphiliac did about "God" are VERY harmful. They are NOT helpful. Its very dangerous, that is why it needs to be pointed out.
Guruphiliac said he would go after BK if she said she was a God, or that her Work is the way to God, etc.
Well, she HAS done that, many many times, only just in powerful indirect and permissive ways, which is much more powerful, and much more effective.
So the comments made by Guruphiliac are VERY DANGEROUS to vulnerable people, which is why they need to be pointed out.
Its a free country and he can say what he likes. He might be terrific criticizing the Old-School Gurus, but he is either missing the boat on the New & Improved post-modern Guru's, or he is tainted on this issue due to friendships and interests.

(PS: this will be my last post on Guruphiliac, if I can help it!!)

Just to throw a few more cents into it...nothing I say about Guruphiliac is "personal" its about this cult stuff...which is serious stuff...its not a joke...it wrecks people's lives.

I don't think Guruphiliac should be above some criticism. He makes mistakes.
For example, I recall he called Eckhart Tolle a Shit-Spewing Tool...which later became just a Tool? (or how ever it went) So that's fine, we all mistype and mis-speak on occasion.

But without over-hammering on Guruphiliac, I don't see him making a "mistake" with Byron Katie. Its deliberate, he sees all the same stuff with other people.
I think he was honest at first, saying it seemed culty and was even like a CIA Black Psy-Ops operation! There is truth to that, hyperbole aside.
Then he got The Mystery Phone Call, from Someone, and tried to clean it up a bit, for whatever reason, personal, or other. Then he can't lose face, so he tries to have it a bit both ways. Such is life.

I recall some comment posts by Guruphiliac that were even a bit "soft" on Scientology?! Something along the lines that some people get benefit from Scientology, or something. I stopped even looking at his blog at that point. Scientology is a FASCIST paramilitary Org when you get near the top. Its one of the worst cults out there, a complete FRAUD, top to bottom.
I mean, if a person cannot even hammer on Scientology, which has been validated in a court of law to be a dangerous "cult of greed", then?? How far do they have to go?

You know, some people get a "benefit" from the KKK too. Lots of people got a "benefit" from the Nazi group as well...so I am being absurd on purpose.
But how far does a culty group have to go before it gets criticized severely?

to say..."I don't recommend people go" is not enough. When something is based on LIES from bottom to top, then that's it. People need to be WARNED up-front.
All Byron Katie, or Landmark, or Scientology needs is for people to say...."I don't recommend it, but some people seem to get a benefit, some don't".
That's all they need, and that is what they WANT. They WANT some confusion and ambiguity. That is a perfect Soft-Sell, actually, far better than a Hard-Sell.

But setting Guruphiliac aside,(I don't want to talk about him anymore I will try not too), the issue can be made broader.
When it comes to analyzing LGAT culty groups...who's analysis can you trust?
That is a very important question.
As these days, there is an entire industry of Cult Apologists. [www.culteducation.com]
There are also LGAT apologists.

I make the argument there are a growing number of LGAT-cult Ambiguity-ologists! They take the approach of appearing mildly critical, and a bit ambiguous and confused about the LGAT.
If I ran a big LGAT, I would get a few followers to go out there covertly pretending to be a 3rd party, and criticize the LGAT and create some Confusion about it. Then in that confusion implant suggestions how POWERFUL the material is, so its NOT for everyone, just "special" people who can handle it.
(In hypnosis and sales that is called Encouraging Resistance and Disarming Objections).
They encourage the Resistance up front, like a type of Judo. I would get some folks out there to set themselves up with blogs and websites that were Anti-Guru's and Against Guru BS, etc.
Then get them to soft-sell the LGAT through the backdoor. (of course, most of them Believe in their group anyway).

So my view is there are a lot of these covert "middle-ground" people out there now, and its growing fast. They hammer hard on their enemies cults, and hammer a bit on their own too, but only to Disarm Objections.
They are not Cult Apologists overtly.
They are Covert.

That way, their overt sales approach works, and they also have a back-door and side-door for referrals as well. The big cults ALL use Front-Groups. They ALL use fake Front-People, that has been going on for decades.

But I think the middle-approach is growing, as its so effective.
Landmark uses that all the time. Approach a seasoned Landmark promoter, and tell him you think Landmark is a dangerous cult. He most likely will...
"agree that its dangerous...yes...very dangerous...not for everyone, I agree. Only a few can handle that kind of power...not everyone should be given advanced technology...like Landmark..."(etc...that was a BS salespitch, which starts from ambiguous criticism).

Once you find more than a few LIES LIES LIES in these groups, then they are FINISHED.
You can't pussy-foot around or be mealy-mouthed. Sometimes you have to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as the bathwater is toxic, and the baby is the Damien child of the devil.

Byron Katie appears to be using many many of these people on the internet. Some are just Followers, but there are others who are far more sophisticated. They start with a mild, mildly negative, or ambiguous Pre-Frame.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2008 07:17AM by The Anticult.

Anticult, I am curious as to what you make of Steve Sashen? He has a blog, which he calls The Anti-Guru blog.

[sashen.com]

He frequently comments on Steve Salerno's "Shamblog", which is a blog that 'busts' the self help movement, and he seems to be quite friendly with the other commenters there. Just one of the gang.

[shambook.blogspot.com]

Salerno has stated quite some time ago that he was going to do an in-depth story on Byron Katie, but he has yet to produce the goods, so to speak. One anonymous commenter asked Salerno, somewhat facetiously (and yet it was a point that needed to be made) if he was going to interview Mr. Sashen for the Byron Katie piece, since Mr. Sashen teaches The Work, Byron Katie's material. No one commented on that at all.

[sashen.com]

Salerno has also been friendly with "Cosmic Connie", another "new wage" B.S. buster.

[www.cosmicconnie.blogspot.com]

It just seems to me that Steve Sashen is getting all friendly with the people who are out there calling B.S. on new age/cult guru-types, and no one on Salerno's blog, not even the sharp as a tack Crack Emcee (who sees cults EVERYWHERE and doesn't put up with it from anyone: [themachoresponse.blogspot.com] ) is calling Sashen on the fact that while he appears on the surface to be "anti-guru", he himself is pushing the teachings of one very dangerous guru.