Hey, for anyone who is looking for tickets for sale for Byron Katie on Craigslist or Ebay for Byron Katie's School For The Work in Los Angeles... PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING POSTS FIRST!!

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53392#msg-53392]Byron Katie - Strong Concerns[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53402#msg-53402]Byron Katie's School and Turnaround House[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53514#msg-53514]Surrendering Personal Property to Byron Katie[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53507#msg-53507]Byron Katie's School - A Family Member's Perspective[/url]]

Event Description:
The School For The Work
April 4 - 13, 2008
Crowne Plaza Los Angeles
5985 West Century Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA
Tuition: $3,500
Accommodations: $1,440 - based upon double occupancy

A question to ask yourself... Why does it cost so much to do The Work in person with Byron Katie, and why the strict cancellation policy?

Quote

All cancellations must be submitted in writing. If your cancellation is received nine (9) or more days in advance of the School, your tuition and room and board costs will be refunded less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you cancel eight (8) days or less in advance of the School, your tuition will be refunded less room and board costs we must pay the hotel and less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or if you leave The School early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.

Another question to ask yourself... Are you willing to sign a legal disclaimer before doing The Work with Byron Katie? You are asked to sign a disclaimer before participating in Byron Katie's Hotline, and there are reports that you must sign one just before starting The School. Why would that be necessary?

Quote

Disaimer of Liability By using The Work Hotline, you assume all risks associated with calling the volunteer Facilitators. BKI shall not, in any event, be liable for any actions taken on the part of the caller or Facilitator during or after the use of this Hotline. Each individual caller and Facilitator is fully responsible for all interactions that take place between the two parties. BKI is not responsible for, nor does it endorse, any interaction between the two parties and assumes no liability for or related to those interactions.

There are also reports that people have been duped into giving up valuable possessions to Byron Katie on the last day of The School -- such as wedding rings and heirlooms. One couple is said to have surrendered approx. $100,000 IN JEWELRY.

PLEASE be a discerning consumer and learn whatever you can about what REALLY goes on in Byron Katie's School and other events, before surrendering your precious mind (and possessions) to "The Work".

Hey, for anyone who is looking for tickets for sale for Byron Katie on Craigslist or Ebay for Byron Katie's School For The Work in Los Angeles... PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING POSTS FIRST!!

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53392#msg-53392]Byron Katie - Strong Concerns[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53402#msg-53402]Byron Katie's School and Turnaround House[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53514#msg-53514]Surrendering Personal Property to Byron Katie[/url]]

[[url=http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,9147,53507#msg-53507]Byron Katie's School - A Family Member's Perspective[/url]]

Event Description:
The School For The Work
April 4 - 13, 2008
Crowne Plaza Los Angeles
5985 West Century Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA
Tuition: $3,500
Accommodations: $1,440 - based upon double occupancy

A question to ask yourself... Why does it cost so much to do The Work in person with Byron Katie, and why the strict cancellation policy?

Quote

All cancellations must be submitted in writing. If your cancellation is received nine (9) or more days in advance of the School, your tuition and room and board costs will be refunded less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you cancel eight (8) days or less in advance of the School, your tuition will be refunded less room and board costs we must pay the hotel and less a $600 non-refundable deposit. If you do not send advance written notice of your cancellation, if you do not show up, or if you leave The School early, your payment is non-refundable and non-transferable.

Another question to ask yourself... Are you willing to sign a legal disclaimer before doing The Work with Byron Katie? You are asked to sign a disclaimer before participating in Byron Katie's Hotline, and there are reports that you must sign one just before starting The School. Why would that be necessary?

Quote

Disaimer of Liability By using The Work Hotline, you assume all risks associated with calling the volunteer Facilitators. BKI shall not, in any event, be liable for any actions taken on the part of the caller or Facilitator during or after the use of this Hotline. Each individual caller and Facilitator is fully responsible for all interactions that take place between the two parties. BKI is not responsible for, nor does it endorse, any interaction between the two parties and assumes no liability for or related to those interactions.

There are also reports that people have been duped into giving up valuable possessions to Byron Katie on the last day of The School -- such as wedding rings and heirlooms. One couple is said to have surrendered approx. $100,000 IN JEWELRY.

PLEASE be a discerning consumer and learn whatever you can about what REALLY goes on in Byron Katie's School and other events, before surrendering your precious mind (and possessions) to "The Work".

Continuing Education Module

Under the subheading 'Indicated Forms of Physical and Emotional Involvement' Richard S. Epstein MD writes:

''A handshake is a generally accepted form of greeting and leave-taking in many cultures. Individuals raised in the United States wil often extend a handshake the the first meeting with a therapist but not thereafter. In contrast, patients raised in European and Latin American countries frequently expect to shake hands and the beginning and end of each visit or a the the very least, before a vacation.

'Except for the initial meeting, it is my view that the therapist should not attempt to initiate a handshake with a patient. On the other hand, if a patient regularly offers to shake hands with the therapist, this is unlikely to create much of a boundary problem if it remains within stereotyped, cultural patterns.

(Richard S. Epstein, Keeping Boundaries:Maintaining Safety and Integrity in the Psychotherapeutic Process, 1994 American Psychiatric Press , page 209

On pages 209-10, Epstein warns that frequent handshakes may gave difficulty to those doing intensive psychodynamic therapy or who have 'a poor conception of their spatial boundaries and that it is best to shake hands only at the beginning of therapy and when the therapeutic relationship is about to end.

The therapist is advised to say something like this:

'It is a nice and friendly custom for people to shake hands when they say hello and goodbye, but since our relationship involves a special way of working together to help you with your problems, and since treatment works best if all of our communications are put into words, I advise against our shaking hands until your treatment is completed.'

Patients who have been previously traumatized by exploitation can be very reassured by this attitude because it is a clear message that the therapist has thought this matter out beforehand and takes his or her professional role very seriously.

Epstein continues: 'I have found that this holds true even if the patient does not understand or accept the therapists reasons.'

'In some cases, a patient's offer of a handshake after a session that has been experienced as very productive will be a way of unconsciously testing the therapist to see if he or she will begin to take advantage now that the patient's defenses have been lowered.

'Of course in other instances a sudden offer of a handshake could be an indication that the patient felt relieved and understood during the visit.'

(Epstein, pages 209-10)


In contrast with Dr Epstein's caution about physical contact and his recommendations to mental health professionals on how to be mindful of boundaries, this interesting essay describes the following episode:

[209.85.173.104]

'As the staffer speaks and I am about to step off the stage, I reach for Katie's hand, both to acknowledge my gratitude for her help and to experience a little closure.

"She(BK)responds with an Aikido-like flick of the wrist (SHIT!!)and I land in her arms again while sheaffectionately scratches my head with her fingernails, as one would a dog or a cat....'

It is worth pondering whether this handshake, as described in the essay, falls within 'stereotyped cultural patterns'.

In the subsection 'Risky Forms of Physical and Emotional Involvement'
Epstein advises us:

'When utilized for nonclinical purposes, physical touching has the potential to arouse either party's expectation that the relationship will go beyond ordinary professional constraints. This hazard occurs regardless of the clinician's speciality, but appears to be greater for those in the mental health field....

'A psychotherapist's work involves a special type of intrusion into the patient's psychological space. A treatment situation that combines a crossing of both mental and physical boundaries is probably much too confusing for many psychologically disturbed individuals and should be segregated into distinct functions.' (Epstein, page 212)

(Personally, I would substitute 'wounded' for 'psychologically disturbed'. And therapist would have to to know somebody well and have seen a person for quite a number of sessions before being able can decide whether physical contact is worth the risk, or best avoided. C)

Later though, Epstein also comments,

'Patients who were sexually abused as children are particularly wary of a changing set of rules, because the offending parent would use exceptions as a way to rationalizing away the incest taboo'. (Epstein, page 213) (My italics, C)

Later, Epstein wrote about a scenario in which the patient tries to suddenly embrace the therapist and how a therapist ought to respond:

'I can tell that you are having strong feelings about wanting to be close to me, we can best deal with this if you tell me what is going on in your mind. I am unlikely to be able to help you if these feelings are put into action.' (Epstein, page 213)

Holy mackerel, that is a Byron Katie variation on the Milton Erickson Handshake Induction!! (which was made popular in NLP).
aka: the Hypnotic Handshake, Ericksonian Handshake, and NLP Pattern Interrupt, etc.

Lots of information out there. That is a way to do instant hypnosis on someone, and then implant suggestions into their minds rapidly.
There are a lot of (profoundly unethical) connections between Byron Katie and Ericksonian hypnotherapy.

The Handshake Induction
[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.google.com]


On a note of coincidence, Milton Erickson had a daughter named Roxanne who he told many stories about in his "Teaching Stories" for many years. Erickson used these "hypnotic stories" as his way of doing hypnotherapy, they were metaphors.

Byron Katie's daughter's name is also Roxanne.
She appears to do The Work for a living, and will NOT talk about her mom Byron Katie, other than the same short media "story" already given to the media!! Obviously those involved in doing The Work for a living are not credible sources of information due to the serious conflict of interest.

____________________________
Roxann Burroughs
[www.thework.com]
"I'm Katie's daughter, Roxann. I witnessed the birth of The Work. My mother was crazy, and I was crazy. My mother is sane now, and I am too. She is a miracle.
...
...
After years of being in and around The Work, I'm still amazed at how effective it is with every person who is willing to answer the questions.

I love the clarity I live my life with. The questions and turnarounds allow me to parent with unwavering love and kindness. The way I parent is my greatest achievement.

If you want to do The Work with me, please email me with why and what you want to work on. I will then give you my Skype address and a time.

Please do not email me with questions about my mother or my experience with her.

I am a facilitator. Let's do The Work"
____________________________________

Quote
corboy
In contrast with Dr Epstein's caution about physical contact and his recommendations to mental health professionals on how to be mindful of boundaries, this interesting essay describes the following episode:

[209.85.173.104]

'As the staffer speaks and I am about to step off the stage, I reach for Katie's hand, both to acknowledge my gratitude for her help and to experience a little closure.

"She(BK)responds with an Aikido-like flick of the wrist (SHIT!!)and I land in her arms again while sheaffectionately scratches my head with her fingernails, as one would a dog or a cat....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2008 06:33AM by The Anticult.

From the Wikipedia article as mentioned by Anticult:

"Any habitual pattern which is interrupted unexpectedly will cause sudden and light trance.

"The handshake is a particularly good pattern to interrupt because the formality of a handshake is a widely understood set of social rules.

"Since everyone knows that it would be impolite to comment on the quality of a handshake, regardless of how strange it may be, the subject is obliged to embark on an inner search (known as a transderivational search, a universal and compelling type of trance) to identify the meaning or purpose of the subverted pattern."

Contrast this with Richard S Epstein's careful description of the handshake:

"''A handshake is a generally accepted form of greeting and leave-taking in many cultures. Individuals raised in the United States wil often extend a handshake the the first meeting with a therapist but not thereafter. In contrast, patients raised in European and Latin American countries frequently expect to shake hands and the beginning and end of each visit or a the the very least, before a vacation.

'Except for the initial meeting, it is my view that the therapist should not attempt to initiate a handshake with a patient. On the other hand, if a patient regularly offers to shake hands with the therapist, this is unlikely to create much of a boundary problem if it remains within stereotyped, cultural patterns. "

The Eriksonian method that Anticult has invited us to examine is powerful, precisely because it appears to be within 'stereotyped, cultural patterns, but covertly breaks the frame, inducing confusion, and in susceptible persons, light trance.'

The example notes that persons may have trouble remembering what was said during such an encounter, because they were distracted by the instigator's covert use of distraction (eg running a finger across the targets' palm while letting go.)

There may be another example from the paper quoted above of a change in a culturally stereotyped pattern...behavior in a public washroom, in this case the ladies room. This happened before the Aikido wrist flick incident.

[209.85.173.104]

I wasn't sure what was keeping me in the room, myself; I was feeling very fragile.

I went to the lavatory. Katie was on her way out. It was an awkward place to introduce oneself, but she gave me a warm smile and an opening, so I took it. Ithought, maybe she is enlightened; an enlightened person wouldn't mind holding court in a restroom.

“Katie, hi, ‘ I said shyly, “I'm X. I e-mailed you, and...”

Before I could finish, I was in Katie's arms.

I think she asked, “How are you?” first, but there wasn't time to notice because she was rather ardently hugging and kissing me as if I were the most adorable thing she'd ever seen.

**(Beep. Pause For Station Identification. Gentle Reader, this 'hugging and kissing' is described (by the author of the paper) as being instigated by the leader of a human potential event, and instigated in a ladies' restroom. As yourself if, in Dr. Epstein's words this falls within culturally stereotyped patterns?'
C)**

To my surprise, the woman had no body. Oh, of course there was a body there, it was embracing me and calling me Sweetheart. But it felt weightless and papery, as if there were nobody home.

“So do you want to sit with me?” she asked warmly, releasing her grip.

“N-now?” I stammered.

“Yes, today, after the break, in the chair,” Katie enthused.

A surprisingly loud “Yes!” flew out of my mouth spontaneously as I fell back against the paper towel dispensers on the wall behind me.

“But – oh my goodness – I wrote to you to say I couldn't do The Work!” “Yes, you can,” she cheerfully reassured me, and before I knew it, she was on to someone else, standing there in the ladies' room giving love.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2008 09:14PM by corboy.

hello! I'm new here, but not new to Tolle's "teaching". Forget the "nondual" aspect. this term carries with it an inherent contradiction, as in the teacher, the taught, and the teaching. each subject to misinterpretation. tolle's endless droning on about "now" carries with it an unspoken "then". it's all about feeling good "now", the alleged "narrow gateway that leads to life". I would argue that it's the chemical bonds that exist within a narrow bandwidth of temperature that allow life to flourish, but that is for another time.

"It's always NOW...I don't think the greatest philosopher in the world could argue about that." say tolle on his live workshop from Findhorn Scotland. Right....and the world's greatest philosopher wouldn't argue with the fact that "honeybees make honey" either. That comment was to set his audience up with the belief that they must be in the presence of a great mystic as the worlds greatest philosopher couldn't argue with his thesis.

Yes, the handshake induction is one that is famous in Ericksonian hypnosis and NLP circles.
Byron Katie does many of these techniques, its very obvious to those who have some training in this area. This is why Katie targets those she does, who have never heard of it.

For example, Byron Katie does another technique from Milton Erickson, where she "tilts her head" when she says certain phrases. You notice it, if you are looking. That is a type of Visual/Vocal "cue", when done over and over, it allows her to communicate with your Unconscious mind directly. So each time she "cocks her head" like she does, you could analyze what she says after that. It would be some type of direct unconscious communication, usually as a metaphor.


As far as that paper by Carol Skolnick, there were alo some comments earlier in the thread about that.

Going to Work Naked: My Journey to Byron Katie by Carol L. Skolnick
[forum.culteducation.com]

That article is clearly meant as a type of "Preframe" similar to the various blogs where Byron Katie has had people talk about "falling in LOVE with Katie at FIRST SIGHT".
You see, that is a pre-hypnotic Suggestion, done in advance, for the 10%-30% of people who can be hypnotized easily. It will become a self-fulfilling prophecy for them, if they buy into it.
As far as Carol Skolnick, its CLEAR she knows exactly what she is doing with her writings. She has been in the culty Guru game for a long time, as mentioned before. One only need search Google Groups [groups.google.com] for Carol Skolnick, and stuff comes up about the Siddha-Yoga cult.

So that paper by Carol Skolnick is not some type of random Dear Diary entry...its a very carefully written Preframe for indoctrination into the Byron Katie group. There have even been posts on her blog that seem to refer to all of the problems, but its all done in a passive-aggressive metaphorical manner. So that is conscious. Its as plain as day.

The Bathroom Love-Bombing referred to in the article, I find very manipulative and highly distasteful. Again, similar to Byron Katie's recordings, they want to take you to a vulnerable place where you are literally "naked". Notice the title of the paper...Going to WORK NAKED. That is carefully written. Going to The Work Naked. (Katie uses the Naked metaphor a lot...guess why?).
Next thing you know, Carol Skolnick is hugging and kissing the Guru in the bathroom. Then Skolnick also puts in a bunch of Embedded Suggestions that Katie is Enlightened, has "no body" or whatever, and then she is "in her arms" and seems to allude to have an orgasm and being tossed back against the paper towel dispenser in the toilet...YES YES YES!!

Please don't let these people "screw" with your mind and emotions. Why always manipulate everyone? Why be so sleazy and manipulative 24/7?
Why not be honest? Why not be a decent, honest, ethical human?

Dr. Milton Erickson was an MD and a licensed hypnotherapist, and did great things, he was a genius. From all accounts he was highly ETHICAL and helped a lot of people, and he was also licensed, and registered, and you knew he was going to hypnotize you, as he was a licensed hypnotherapist! That was his job.

But sadly, there have been some people who have come along, and taken some of this ideas, and are now abusing them. Byron Katie is one of these people.

Byron Katie is not a registered or licensed psychotherapist, she is not a licensed hypnotherapist, she is not licensed to do anything like this. The only thing she can do is be a New Age Guru, and then use all these techniques in secret on people, and try to pretend she isn't.
Why is she unlicensed?
Because then she do do whatever she wants without any oversight, and she forces you to sign away your rights, as well.

If Byron Katie were licensed, she would have been put out of business long ago, as any licensed person can't put people into deep Trances, and then get them to hand over their wedding rings, plane tickets, expensive jewellery, etc. Anyone else would be disbarred for doing anything like that.

Its like plastic surgery.
You can go to a licensed, board certified plastic surgeon, and they can do a nice job for you, using advanced techology, lasers, and everything else.
OR...
You can go to Mexico, and get cut-up by an unlicensed plastic surgeon, who will use the same technology on you, scar you for life, damage you for life, give you a horrible infection that could go on for months, possibly cripple you, and maybe even cause your death. We see this in the papers weekly.

This is the metaphor for Dr. Milton Erickson versus Byron Katie .
Dr. Erickson was the trained, licensed MD and hypnotic surgeon, who could really help you. (he used the metaphor of being surgeon, that is where Byron Katie got the metaphor as well). Erickson would help people get better, get a job, get married, and send him a postcard!

Byron Katie is the unlicensed, untrained, back-alley hypnotic butcher who is going to cut you up, experiment on your mind, charge you 100x more than a proper professional would, and then charge you double and triple to come back over and over try to clean up the bloody, bleeding mess from her botched Soul Surgery hatchet-job, done without a license.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2008 03:57AM by The Anticult.

Hmm. Going back to the bathroom incident, it now seems muddled who instigated what.

But..even if it was the disciple who initiated physical contact with BK, remember what Dr Epstein says regarding an attempt by a patient to instigate physical contact. The therapist is advised to cool things down as quickly as possible:

'I can tell that you are having strong feelings about wanting to be close to me, we can best deal with this if you tell me what is going on in your mind.

'I am unlikely to be able to help you if these feelings are put into action.'

(Richard S. Epstein, Keeping Boundaries:Maintaining Safety adn Integrity in the Psychotherapeutic Process: page 213)

I am pasting the text in an excerpt below...
The text is quite clear, before Carol Skolnick could even say a sentence, she was...

"in Katie's arms" and Byron Katie "was rather ardently hugging and kissing me".
(It reads like a Harlequin Romance novel, uh, but in the toilet of an LGAT?).

So its clear that Katie was the aggressor from the text.
Then right away, Katie has moved her loving arms in the bathroom onto the next women, and was...

"standing there in the ladies' room giving love".

Notice the sexual metaphors and sexual innuendo being used. Especially the last one.

"Perhaps I had to be empty in order to receive".


On a serious note, Byron Katie "certified" Carol Skolnick to be a facilitator. So in that sense, Skolnick is like a Franchise holder for a business, and Byron Katie functions as her boss, as the company is Byron Katie International.
These are not the only writings like this, there is much more of it, even more ardent and suggestive.
How many people would write this kind of stuff about their "boss"?
That is NOT appropriate in a business relationship, its a very serious violation of boundaries.






Going to Work Naked: My Journey to Byron Katie by Carol L. Skolnick
____________________________________
I wasn't sure what was keeping me in the room, myself; I was feeling veryfragile. I went to the lavatory. Katie was on her way out. It was an awkward place to introduce oneself, but she gave me a warm smile and an opening, so I took it. I thought, maybe she is enlightened; an enlightened person wouldn't mind holding court in a restroom.“Katie, hi, ‘ I said shyly, “I'm Carol. I e-mailed you, and...”Before I could finish, I was in Katie's arms. I think she asked, “How are you?” first, but there wasn't time to notice because she was rather ardently hugging and kissing me as if I were the most adorable thing she'd ever seen.To my surprise, the woman had no body. Oh, of course there was a body there, it was embracing me and calling me Sweetheart. But it felt weightless and papery, as if there were nobody home.“So do you want to sit with me?” she asked warmly, releasing her grip.“N-now?” I stammered.“Yes, today, after the break, in the chair,” Katie enthused.A surprisingly loud “Yes!” flew out of my mouth spontaneously as I fell back against the paper towel dispensers on the wall behind me.“But – oh my goodness – I wrote to you to say I couldn't do The Work!”“Yes, you can,” she cheerfully reassured me, and before I knew it, she was on to someone else, standing there in the ladies' room giving love. I didn't feel hungry for lunch after that. I split a sandwich with Curt, who had been sitting next to me during the program. Over our meal, we nervously cracked “Work”jokes. “This is a sandwich, is it true? Can you really know that?” Curt offered me some cookies he'd brought from home. I tasted one. The sugar overwhelmed me. This was most assuredly not like me. Perhaps I had to be empty in order to receive.
______________________________

Welcome, Hugh!

I'm kind of glad you've put the focus on Eckhart, as I am in need of a little break from all the discussion about Byron Katie.

I had looked into Tolle a few times, but his "endless droning" as you call it didn't reel me in. Thankfully! I'm wondering if you had ever felt hooked by his stuff?

Please feel free to share about what has brought you here. (Or not!)

Quote
Hugh Manatee
hello! I'm new here, but not new to Tolle's "teaching". Forget the "nondual" aspect. this term carries with it an inherent contradiction, as in the teacher, the taught, and the teaching. each subject to misinterpretation. tolle's endless droning on about "now" carries with it an unspoken "then". it's all about feeling good "now", the alleged "narrow gateway that leads to life". I would argue that it's the chemical bonds that exist within a narrow bandwidth of temperature that allow life to flourish, but that is for another time.

"It's always NOW...I don't think the greatest philosopher in the world could argue about that." say tolle on his live workshop from Findhorn Scotland. Right....and the world's greatest philosopher wouldn't argue with the fact that "honeybees make honey" either. That comment was to set his audience up with the belief that they must be in the presence of a great mystic as the worlds greatest philosopher couldn't argue with his thesis.