Agreed..

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falling_leaves
... I do feel a bit uncomfortable with the way apollo inserts the children of god thing after Dave's name, not cause i was close to him or anything, but cause they are notorious for sex abuse stuff and it makes me a bit uncomfortable that people may be associating that behaviour with me too as an exmember. I hope you don't take that personally, though, apollo.

I definitely never was into anything like children of god stuff and I never witnessed or was taught to practice the kind of stuff they did. I just want that to be clear cause I don't like the idea of people thinking of me or other exmembers as some kind of sex wierdos just because we were in the jc's and when someone says somehting about the leader of something I think they automatically think the same thing about the followers. I think that is waht jesus meant when he said that if people called him names then they would call him followers names too.

hi falling_leaves,
and good to hear from you : I hope you are travelling reasonably well just now, and thanks for making this point. Just wanting to say that while I don't share that feeling of discomfort caused by Apollo's repeated use of the Children of God tag in conjunction with Dave's name, I certainly do take your point about it. I expect it's meant to jump out as a warning to new readers, (and of course to annoy Dave), but for me it's just a wee bit like the dull scraping sound of a blunt knife, or even a title: it actually loses it's edge with over-use.

Your words resonate very strongly with me however, reminding me of the discomfort my son experienced when I thought it OK to try to dull the pain of having been abandoned, by publicly mocking Dave and all that I saw the JCs as standing for. I imagined that my silly jokes could shine the light of reason and truth on Dave, and never imagined they could have hurt the person I loved: that he would feel hurt for Dave, as if he had somehow become one with him.

In fact, in the long term those silly jokes probly did more good than harm, but in the short term, it really did seem like a big mistake, and I very much regretted that.

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falling_leaves
Anyway I don't tink I have the right to ask apollo to change the things he says but I think it could help to make others more comfortable if they didn't get the idea that people were looking at them like sex weirdos.

I don't think anything already posted here can be changed/edited after even quite a short time, but you certainly do have the right to ask anyone posting here to respect your sensitivities in how they write, and hopefully reason will prevail :).


Hey yes, Dave certainly is something of a super-analyst, ain't he? No doubt he will enjoy seeing how meticulously his forum stats are being noted here these days, and wishing this level of interest had been shown before the lockdown/turnaround situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 08:57PM by cait.

As just another occasional poster here, I would also like to wish zeuszor well in pastures new, and to acknowledge him, Malcolm and all the posters here for contributing to our general education on cults and new religious movements and their possible pitfalls, and for their noble and selfless efforts towards this cult in particular.

(former member of the notorious ''Children of God'')

This is a line which was taken from a post the moderator previously made. I believe it is an important piece of information which newcomers to the thread must be made aware of.

There are no lies in this line. Dave McKay IS a former member of the notorious Children of God, that is a fact.

I hope that clears things up..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 09:14PM by Apollo.

thanks to bigpig, styxx, blackhat, apollo and everyone for welcoming me here. I see everyone gets along so great; I hope this isn't some kind of lovebomb thing, is it?

oh regarding pre moderation or whatever it's called I don't actually mind however long tha ttakes cause I don't thnk I have anything to say deliberatly meant to offend anyone and obviously i don't have a problem with sticking to the topic of discussing the jc. the only inconvenience is if I'm responding to smething specific and then the post is put up after several other posts and it could get confusin but it looks like rick has been pretty good about getting posts up so i don't see any problem with waiting. besides, at the rate I'm going I probably will only have time to post once or maybe twice a day anyway.

Styx, yes I was a jc before the recent break up but I was a little bit worried about how that might come across to people here so I didn't want to just come right and say it. In the end it was helpful to have blackhat point it out and to reassure me that I could post without feeling attacked. Thanks for everyone else who backed her up on that. btw the reason you probably don't recognize my "harsh" side or whatever is because I did very little posting on the jc forum compared to others (dealing with my laziness in that area is part of the reason I decided to come here), though from what I remember i think the harsh thing is probably something that a lot of people have trouble with regarding the jcs though I don't think its a black or white issue. the jcs feel (err, felt) that sometimes getting to the truth means not being afraid to challenge people on the things they say. even malcolm has said that he and blackhat have had disagreements with each other and apollo and blackhat have disagreements which Im sure either one or the other party probably thinks is harsh. Most of the times people like it when others agree with them. no one likes hearing that they may be wrong in what they are saying. I got a lot of "harsh" stuff in the form of corrections and disciplines but I don't feel bad about that because it taught me to be strong and I think that's how I'm able to continue today. sorry, does that sound too preachy?

about the "notorious" children of god disclaimer; I think you may have missed the point I was making about association, Apollo. If you apply the disclaimer to the leader then the average person will automatically assume the same about the group which the leader leads. You may not realize how that, but it does actually reflect on all the members of the jc's (well, ex members now), but even being ex members it still reflects. but even besides caring for my own reputation as not being associatied with sex weirdos, I think it's unfair to any of the members of the jcs because in all my time in the jc's I never once had anyone suggest free sex towards one another or for the purpose of getting new disciples or suggest to me or that I should try it and I never heard anyone else promoting it either. I never heard any exmember from since the beginning of the jc's ever claim that the children of God's teachings on free sex was a part of their involvement with the jcs so quite honestly the often repeated association is something that makes me feel defensive.

Thanks for the clarification about being able to post scriptural refrences malcom. Its a relief to know that though Ill try not to post too many as I know that can start to look obnoxious. sorry but I don't know what exegisis is so i dont think I can correct whatever you misapprehensions are about that but I can clarify that I was around for several new disciples who joined and it was never an issue of forsaking all to dave. in fact there were times when a new person wuold join with very little and we actually spent a lot more than what that person forsook to the group on travel arrangements or living arrangements etc. the thing about forsaking all is a principle and not really about accumulating wealth at all. does that help?

I don't know what to tell you about the people in kenya as Im not a part of that team but I can imagine they would probably be upset with me if I did try to put you in contact with them (i think they probably don't even know im here); i suspect they don't believe that you care abou them at all. although the jcs split up people still agreed to try and work for god as they went their own seprate ways and there is still a lot of friendship there which i think they would be be upset if someone was insulting those frinedships. even i feel a bit offended when i read some of your postings but im trying to control that cause i don't tihnk just feeling offended will make much difference to moving on with my life.

hi adrian Ive not seen much posting from you ( though ive only been here for a short time. ) and I don't recognize your name. were you a jc supporter at some time? I've mostly just seen blackhat apollo and malcolm i think. anyway thanks for responding to my posts but i don't consider myself to be a victem. i think most people would probably feel offended at being referred to like that when there isn't good reason to support it though its probably just that yuo've misunderstood the sitaution cause you were never a member. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh cause I don't even know you and im just sharing my opinion. i think I remember something about other exmembers expressing appreciation for the disciplines they learned while in the jcs and I feel the same thing. i think some ex members are doctors now, isn't it? that doesn't sound so bad!

anyway I should get going. I've been working on this for a long time cause lots of people responded to me and it takes me a long time to read stuff. i noticed that most posts here are much shorter than this one but its like once I started responding to people i just kept gong and going. if i'm going over some kind of limit then let me know and Ill try not to talk so much in future. and im hungry too (lol thats the real reason I want to go now!)

bye and thanks again for the opportunity to share with you guys.

p.s. though i strongly disagree with Brian's hatred (toward dave in particular) and the profanity he used to describe it I think it's great that he feels his mission has been accomplished cause it seems to me like anything which makes you feel like you need to go to rehab (am I explaining that properly?) is probably not good for you, like drugs or depresson or whatever.

wow my post went up really fast this time, like 5 minutes. that's great timing. thanks rick.

hi cait, since my post went up so fast I still have a few minutes of time left and I just noticed your post after i submitted mine. thanks for the well wishes on my travels. it's actually quite fun!

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but for me it's just a wee bit like the dull scraping sound of a blunt knife

Are you a poet or something? lol I hope I don't sound too easily impressed but that sure is a descriptive sentence.

thanks for reponding to what I was getting at with the cog thing. it's nice to be heard. I really enjoyed getting along with your son but I'm not aware of what the silly jokes are that you are talking about.

I am a little confused about the thing you said about regret, about how you regretted making these silly jokes. It sounds like you are saying the regret for the jokes is something you are feeling now but that you feel the silly jokes probably did some good in the long term. if you feel the silly jokes did some good then it doesn't seem like you should be regretting them. Maybe if I knew what the silly jokes were I would understand, but as it's worded now it sounds strange to me, but I do appreciate you sharing about that. oh wait,i just considered that maybe it's the good that came as a result of the jokes that i'm not getting. is that right? i really do miss a lot, eh?

I think the "abandoned" thing sounds a bit strange to me too, though I can certainly understand people loving one another and missing one another. but in the end all kids grow up and leave home at some point right? lol well i guess there are some geeks out there who don't leave home, though, but ash certainly isn't a geeky kid in the basement....err right?. (not that I have anything against geeky kids in the basement mind you, but if ash really is in your basement right now i'd like a sign of life from him! lol).
hrrrm I'm probably not making much sense and I'm still hungry now so Ill get going. (again!)

Thanks for the clarification about being able to post scriptural refrences malcom. Its a relief to know that though Ill try not to post too many as I know that can start to look obnoxious. sorry but I don't know what exegisis is...

Exegisis is the "Critical explanation or interpretation of a text, esp. of scripture" ...it would hardly be "obnoxious" falling leaves, as many of those who post here have a Christian background, one way or another...and of course scripture is EXACTLY where we need to have strength in, in order to discredit the fabrications that McKay engages in....Go on!...dont feel shy...just "overwhelm" us with some of the scriptures you acquired during your service under McKay, as far as you can...no doubt that won't be very difficult, for someone who has had McKay ramming his "proof texts" down their throat, umpteen times....probably you'll be able to show a mere novice like me up, with all the latest that McKay has and I'll have to seriously research the Bible in response......I would enjoy hearing what you remember being taught by Mckay and it is actually quite important to stay up to date, with latest false "scriptural backing" he employs!!!


That's an interesting observation that you make falling leaves when you remark that:

I can clarify that I was around for several new disciples who joined and it was never an issue of forsaking all to dave. in fact there were times when a new person wuold join with very little and we actually spent a lot more than what that person forsook to the group on travel arrangements or living arrangements etc. the thing about forsaking all is a principle and not really about accumulating wealth at all. does that help?

...that's almost the sort of thing that David would say himself, but of course, I'm sure it's no doubt, not quite what you mean....once anyone has "forsaken all"....wouldn't you think that the years of unpaid labour (say for example, the Australian minimum wage multiplied by weeks of servitude) in ADDITION to whatever was originally forsaken would MORE than compensate for the "generosity" that David ingenuously claims his empire offers its indentured labourers....i.e the JC do NOT sponsor their "employees"...the income they individually earn, selling Davids writing and their own body organs MORE than makes up for "travel" and "living" arrangements (you too no doubt would personally understand this as I believe that the only JC's not to hock their kidneys for the greater cause, were (wife)Cherry, (daughter)Christine and (new kid on the block) Trevor...it must have been a horrendous realization for you, of late, to know that you have "sold" your kidney for a man intent on making whatever he could out of you.....feel free to share if this at all helps, and try not to hold back at all, falling leaves....as it would only delay your recovery, if you attempt to retain what David has no doubt, so duplicitously impressed upon you.....

As you state, Falling Leaves, "forsaking all" is a "principle"..I completely agree with you....hence I believe that say, Nick and Cait (whose kindliness I have personally experienced) are in all likelyhood, true to the calling God makes upon them to "forsake all" in his name, as they do not live ostentatious lives or accumulate "wealth" and devote themselves to the good of their family...rather unlike a certain "apostle" who would not hesitate to discard his own son, were he to "threaten" his grip on power, and who "lays up treasures on earth" in the very cult that he (once) operated...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 10:40PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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falling_leaves
about the "notorious" children of god disclaimer; I think you may have missed the point I was making about association, Apollo. If you apply the disclaimer to the leader then the average person will automatically assume the same about the group which the leader leads. You may not realize how that, but it does actually reflect on all the members of the jc's (well, ex members now), but even being ex members it still reflects. but even besides caring for my own reputation as not being associatied with sex weirdos, I think it's unfair to any of the members of the jcs because in all my time in the jc's I never once had anyone suggest free sex towards one another or for the purpose of getting new disciples or suggest to me or that I should try it and I never heard anyone else promoting it either. I never heard any exmember from since the beginning of the jc's ever claim that the children of God's teachings on free sex was a part of their involvement with the jcs so quite honestly the often repeated association is something that makes me feel defensive.

Hello again,

I completely understand the point you're trying to make however i disagree with you. I don't feel it in any way insinuates that his followers are/were 'sex weirdos'.

Dave McKay to this day still holds some strong principles from his days in the notorious Children of God. Here's one of his most famous Children of God influenced quotes..

Dave wrote:
"But a better example is paedophilia. Kids are not FORCED to have sex, and yet society says it is wrong. I know, I know, they are not adults. But you see, we each have our restrictions that we think makes it wrong or doesn't make it wrong."

Dave McKay being a former member of the notorious Children of God is an important piece of information and must be highlighted.

sorry malcolm but I really don't think a competition of bible verses will be helpful for me right now. If you have a problem with the way dave or really any other former member of the jcs has abused scripture then i don't really know how to convince you otherwise since ive not witnessed the abuses. it probably would be easier if you just provided the evidence of the abuses yourself rather than me trying to explain something i've never seen.

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I'm sure it's no doubt, not quite what you mean

I hope this won't become something weird between us malcolm but it's a little scary having someone try to convince me that I don't actually mean what I say but instead i probably mean what that person thinks my words should mean.

the jc's were a volunteer group, malcolm. it really does sound strange to reason that people can go and agree to volunteer somewhere and then months or even years later go back and demand payment for their services. I really do think that is just common sense. I don't think you would have much luck applying your theory on this to any volunteer organization in the world.

I also need to say that i really do not understand where you are coming from with a lot of what you are saying and it just sounds a bit too confrontational for me. you are right that I donated a kidney but because of my particular problem with laziness it was agreed that if i really wanted to donate then I would need to organize everything for myself to be sure that it really was my own decision. That was something that I very much appreciated becaused I learned a lot from it. I was very close with the hospital staff by the end of the process and I can assure you that it was an altruistic donation. no one except the recipient benefited from that and it was something that made me very happy. my donation was something between me and the recipient and not all about dave. I really am offended that you are trampling on an event that was very precious to me in my life just because you have a problem with dave. I know Im new to this forum and i really appreciate that people were talking about respecting my beleifs so Im sorry if im being too angry here but I just had to get that off my chest.

apollo i think dave has said several times that he does not support pedophilia and as a recent exmember I believe him because I never saw anything in his behaviour to suggest otherwise. and im not just saying that because i was a member but because it would hurt my feelings and I would be offended for anyone to be falsly accused. if people were accusing you of the same thing and I knew it wasn't true then I would speak up for you too. However, I remember that brian was the one who seemed to be the most insistent that dave was a pedophile. maybe you really are brian!lol this anonymous thing is kind of fun.

anyway, I still think something is preventing you from hearing what I mean about the cog reference. I think cait was able to see it, maybe others can too. in the end i think I can agree to disagree cause I don't really like trying to force people to see things my way but on the other hand perhaps we can still talk about it if we are both okay to do so. is that okay? thanks

falling_leaves:

It seems like you have not really sorted through everything yet regarding your experiences in the group.

For example, Dave McKay manipulated kidney donations for public relations purposes, i.e. to get publicity, promote himself and attract attention for the group. The person that received your kidney benefited and must be deeply gratelfu, but McKay had his own agenda.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a section within the site, which is completely devoted to recovery from cults.

It might be helpful if you read a few of the articles.

McKay was in" Children of God." That's a fact and he was apparently somewhat influenced by Berg's teachings, comic books, etc. No one has said anything otherwise. So there is no need to defend the JC group regarding allegations of child sexual abuse.

Let's not create false arguments ore engage in personal attacks.