Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: May 05, 2009 10:07AM

Oh and "free of DM",

David has set about to "prove himself" again by correctly identifying you, has he? a another dazzling show of "intellect" before his adoring audience....I LOVE these games he (just has to) play.....its just such a pathetic display of overt narcissism!

Well...we shouldn't offer any hints about you, should we.....however I think that your recent spat with Rick Ross shouldn't over shadow the contributions that the both of you have made to the world of Hip Hop [] Besides your musical abilities I am obliged to you for taking the time you have to become involved in the world of the Jesus Christian cult......

(Have you considered offering Joe and the other JC's some much needed basic lessons?......)

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Oerlikon ()
Date: May 05, 2009 11:48AM

Hey, I found this new JC video. Check it out, Dave is the one in the middle. So let's celebrate!


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: May 05, 2009 02:57PM

Dear Oerlikon, (Believe me, I was celebrating when they had finally finished!!!

Do you think that the JC's are "selling" themselves very well with the you tube efforts.....I note that (apparently?) David in general appears to be keeping himself "out of view"......and now is content to use front men to sell membership of the JC's.....Has it finally sunk in with David, that he just continually comes across as the archetypical "cult leader" (.....although he would not acknowledge that fact that that is due to the fact that he IS such!!)

God!... I must say it brings back "memories" (some are pleasant) to hear Joe spruiking the same old COG-speak that first interested me in them...all those decades ago....again I "excuse" myself that there was no other alternate information on McKay available at the time, I was deceived by him....but perhaps like Joe, I'd have been tempted regardless..... I'd still like to think that there was once an "iota" of genuineness to the man that I knew then....even if that "iota" has well and truly been crushed underfoot now....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2009 02:59PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: May 05, 2009 03:14PM

Dear Oerlikon,

My apologies.....this should have been included in the previous posting (...if you don't already have access to this?)


By far the biggest news this month is that we have finally completed
the hour-long documentary ("More Than Just a Band"), which we have
put on a DVD. The DVD also includes six music videos and a half-hour
video on Roland's kidney donation in Cyprus. It has gone to the
printer and should be out on the streets in about two weeks.

If you're really impatient, you can view it on youtube. Just go to
UKlisteners and ask to see all of the videos they have put up.
Unfortunately, you have to watch it in little bite-sized pieces, but
it should all be there by the time you receive this newsletter
(though we are having a few glitches just at the moment). Here is a
link to one of the music videos that is already up, to get you


Please add your comments and rate the video (and hopefully you'll
give it an "awesome" rating!) We expect that this video, and the
feedback that it will almost certainly elicit, could mark the start
of a significant change in our overall/worldwide influence
. We
should have more news on that next month.

My highlights are in bold......I can imagine David gleefully rubbing his hands together (in fits of maniacal laughter) imagining the attention he may be able to draw to himself here.....surely other cults have already "been there and done that" on youtube though. haven't they....or could David legitimately claim a "first" for himself here?

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: May 05, 2009 09:55PM

Oh, and to whoever may be aware of this,

Can I be "spammed" into silence on youtube?

"franandkim" and "joe" posted halfwit denials of the matters I raised about the hypocritcal content of their videos (singing about leaving the "System" to then become enslaved to Mckay)....when I tried to address postings were not acknowledged......the three of them naturally enough duplicitiously made no mention of the fact that I no longer had any right of reply.....

......(sigh) that's (members of) a cult for you!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Oerlikon ()
Date: May 06, 2009 12:10AM

The documentary they made about themselves was on YouTube. It was only there for a few days, and then was removed because of copyright issues. I was fortunate to have seen it.

It featured a bunch of interviews with certain JCs parents (Fran's, Grace's, the Kronmiller's) who were gushing about how proud they were of their kids to have gone into the mission field, stuff on Freeganism, their work in Kenya, a section on the "cult image" (which was rather glossed over in my opinion) and etc.

This documentary looked like an effort toward generating some positive PR for the group, thereby salvaging what's left of their reputation after the media fiascos over the last several years they've been a part of which made them look bad, and as well they are trying to maintain some kind of presence on the street.

So now the JCs are presenting themselves as a band, and DM is presenting himself as their manager.

They have created yet another new guise under which to sell themselves to the public.

Now they are making rap CD's on homemade recording equipment and trying to get their asinine "message" out that way.

Knowing them, this is bush-league psycho stuff. Laughable.

Some unwitting soul they met on the street, whoever didn't know them, could potentially be decieved.

But for what it's worth, I really like Ross' music. I have got to hand it to that man, he is a talented artist.

There's been so much negative attention and so much negative media coverage given to that group that anybody with critical thinking skills and Internet access that spent an hour researching them wouldn't join or support the JCs anyway.

Nobody except, that is, types like zerocurrencyman and other hippieish people that were featured in the doc as "friends of the JCs." Even then, these hippie people that were presented as "friends" didn't actually join the JCs, they all were there talking about the virtues of the freegan lifestyle. Besides, it really doesn't impress me that zerocurrencyman is on there saying something trite like "They're not a cult, man, society's the cult."

Once the McKays die, then the JCs will be no more. The most they could is still just pass their old comics.

On the other hand of course, they could just go off the deep end and do something even more drastic than before...just to get attention.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: May 06, 2009 12:29AM

Some interesting thoughts here from a contributor who shall remain nameless, to a "related" site......(The reference to "Dave's post" is a reference to another of his self-pitying "whining brat" efforts and is not fundamental to the issues raised here)

Dave's post (quoted above) demonstrates the kind of collectivising that quickly polarises everyone as a friend or foe. The visitor to their site, Jon, who suggests the JCs consider Joe's mother's perspective in the whole scenario is immediately linked with "so many of our worst enemies".

If making a second post on the subject earns Jon a ranking amoung the "worst" enemies, one wonders what it takes to make the low range end of that scale!

And, in demonising Joe's mother as the mastermind "orchestrating" the most dangerous attack ever launched against the JCs, Dave tries to remove all sympathy for the fact that she was not directly involved in the awful reaction of Joe's step father and brother to the perception that a group of men had "orchestrated" Joe's departure from the family home and had returned to take his things.

This logic of removing the middle ground explains the letter to Boyd and Sheri that said their apparent similarity and continuing civility made their relationship more "problematical" than others who openly disagreed with them and so labelled them as "enemies posing as friends" Like Sekto's story of the bleeding "dead man", even those who try to remain neutral outside of Dave's control will be reframed as the worst kind of enemy.

It also explains why Dave continues to respond to postings on the RR forum, but refuses to even look at this site.

The dead man bleeding story is a good analogy for the self referencing logic that keeps people locked into certain belief systems. The longer someone does that, the harder it is to return, as it's easier to maintain the myth than face up to years and decades of self delusion.

A dose of fatalism can be helpful as trying too hard to force an outcome can be counter productive. There is always some good mixed with the bad and blunt opposition is often seen by those who can only see the good as persecution.

I would still defend persistent reasoning as an empowering act in itself and effective in frustrating attempts to polarise and demonise critics and those who leave. If Dave finds it too unsettling to look at this site (I note he still follows the RR forum), it suggests to me that being reasonable works.

People leave the Mormons every day and people ARE still leaving the JCs. It's important that we try to facilitate the transition and appreciate the difficulty of what they are going through. I remain convinced that dehumanising JCs is counterproductive and puts us at risk of replicating their methods.

I acknowledge that David "feeds off" the RR forum postings.

(He's that desperate for attention....that as Oscar Wilde wittily noted....(for some folk) Gossip is a dreadful thing and the only thing that could be more dreadful than being gossiped about, is being not gossiped about).

However, were there to be no alternate sources of information, David would be empowered in his prevarication.

Were there to be no "RickRoss" forum David would simply create his own self-produced "straw man", thus he wouldn't somehow become more "open" to reason nor would the existing members of the JC's be any easier to "reach" if we were somehow "nice enough"......that simply will never happen....

I'd definitely favour jail time for David (Criminal Misrepresentation, Fraud amounting to Larceny, Blackmail and Extortion) if it proves possible to pursue criminal charges against him....he would seek to use such an episode to "canonize" himself, however people who are not currently members of the JC's (i.e. potential converts in the wider public) need to be considered in the equation, as well as the small existing membership...David should be clearly and loudly "outed" as a predator!

I have definitely pointed out time and time again, that David and Cherry have chosen to "dehumanize" themselves....generally my other remarks about other individuals in the JC's are only made in passing....(as they are simply pawns in the hands of David, faithfully mirroring his inclinations (even if they compelled not to even entertain such thoughts as "promptings of the Devil).....the individual members of the JC's are irrelevant to the ultimate direction of the group.... is though certainly possible for even the "long-term" individual members to opt out of their servitude to McKay....I have merely said that I find it an increasingly unlikely possibility as the years pass and any remnant conscience" becomes seared by a "hot iron"....

I respect the authors opinion that the alternate web-site is actually more threatening to McKay than the RR forum, (for the reasons he nominates) even if it is an opinion that I do not completely share....

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: May 06, 2009 12:52AM

Dear Oerlikon,

David is "frozen" in time and due to his paranoid isolation, he doesn't realize that most of the world has moved on from the "hippies" of his youth....I am not aware of any converts that they have drawn from their attempted high-jacking of "freeganism"....a trend that will displease Master David no end....he just doesn't have a clue how to overcome his own startling lack of appeal....(besides trying to stay "out of sight" as much as possible, until someone has well and truly swallowed the hook!)...the rabble-rousing goads to ever greater "sacrifice" (that he stole from the COGs) must sound increasingly hollow....even to his captive audience!

....I agree that Ross is a talented musician....A friend external to the JC's would probably help him make his escape (however this is precisely why David purposely circumvents the formation of "friendships" with those external to his pathetic little kingdom.....)

Once David dies (and we all finish celebrating), I'd like to see some efforts made to "rehabilitate" those who are left to flounder for themselves.....many of the ideals (that David prostitutes to better sell himself) are worthwhile "causes" (third world development, environmentally low impact lifestyles) and I think that a few of the "younger" JC's still hold a few of these....

We would presumably still be looking to 2020 for this "wondrous event" (Davids demise!) hence it behooves us to continue with the accurate(!) negative publicity that the JC's so richly deserve....

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Oerlikon ()
Date: May 06, 2009 03:58AM

Here is Grace's blog, in which she writes about the JCs and their travels, as well as Zero Currency Man.


This one is for Suelo, aka Zero Currency Man:


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2009 04:17AM by Oerlikon.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Oerlikon ()
Date: May 06, 2009 04:30AM

Aha, Grace is out now, too, but is still friendly with them. Good for her.


The Jesus Christians

First, I want to say thank you to the whole JC community for the three years I spent learning, traveling and growing with you...I still consider the JCs to be my family, and will always be grateful for the ways they have opened my eyes. I am now what I suppose they would call a "friendly ex-member", but I see it more like I am an independent member of their community, a traveler carrying out the ideas and beliefs that God planted in me through them. My goal is to plant those ideals in the soil of my surroundings wherever I go and in whatever I do.

The JCs are a small, radical Christian community that I joined when I was 18. They describe themselves like this (and I would say it's an accurate description): "A live-by-faith, work-for-God-not-money Christian community. We distribute Bible-based comics and other tracts, and do free (voluntary) work. Against hypocrisy and self-righteousness in the church. In favour of honesty, humility and love." ( They have about 30 members total in 4 countries around the world, but they have had a big (IMO positive) impact on the world around them. I send my love out to them all!

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2009 04:35AM by Oerlikon.

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