Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: muppet ()
Date: June 21, 2009 02:14AM

SOURCE: []. ... f19#p2592

I noticed that Jeremy accepts Dave's mistaken assertion that Muppet is Liesel!

Jeremy wrote:
What really seems to be missing in Liesel's understanding....

Well, what seems to be missing in Jeremy's inderstanding is that Dave gets it wrong on a regular basis and has got my identity wrong again. Too bad if that unsurps his prophet status. I am not Liesel.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: muppet ()
Date: June 21, 2009 09:48PM

Dave got it wrong casting Muppet as Liesel so he took another wild gamble. He cast Muppet as Liesel's husband. Here is what he wrote

Dave on welikejesus wrote Well, Jeremy, you got a response from Liesel (who shares the username Muppet with her husband on the Rick Ross forum, shares the name Oerlikon with Malcolm and Brian on the Rick Ross forum, and writes as Gertrude on the X site.

Dave continues Yeah, like Apostate wasn't Tony and then wasn't Craig, and Private Eyes wasn't David Lowe, Free of DM isn't Jessica, Blackhat isn't Anita Foster, Cultmalleus isn't Attila, Blacksheep isn't Tofferer, Antigone isn't Kevin, and on and on...

Now I know for a fact I am not Liesel. Neither am I Liesel's husband, Gertrude or Gertrude's husband.

Dave is trying to deduce who is who here and is way off the mark with Muppet. He will now probably call me every other possible name he can come up with. Let him go ahead. I will not make a habit of interrupting him or commenting on his mistakes and will just sit back and watch him make a bigger fool of himself, whatever he calls me from now on. He will only prove what we already know. He has not got a clue and God is not revealing it to him or making him any the wiser either.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Lee1983 ()
Date: June 22, 2009 02:48AM

Curious why "we" don't focus on the issues of CULTS TAKING GOOD PEOPLE AWAY FROM THEIR FAMILIES and how to get these poor people back!!! Instead we are fussing over who is who and what Dave MacQwaker thinks now.

I lost interests in these forums because I wanted to post about my upset with losing someone and finding out how to save them and all I GOT WAS BAWLED OUT AND BLASTED BY PEOPLE FOR BEING MEAN TO DAVE!!!!!




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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Oerlikon ()
Date: June 22, 2009 06:10AM

It seems to me the Dave McKay must be a quintessential narcissist, and that he has had inflicted upon him over the last couple of years, a huge amount of what is termed narcissistic injury. He must find this to be extremely uncomfortable and is looking to lash out. He is reacting (as is typical for the narcissist) with hostililty, out of his need to humiliate, degrade, and generally control others. David does not even know who he is anymore, and in simple terms, he has totally freaked out. He is truly a madman.

From the works of Dr. Sam Vaknin:


Any threat (real or imagined) to the narcissist's grandiose and fantastic self-perception (False Self) as perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and entitled to special treatment and recognition, regardless of his actual accomplishments (or lack thereof).

The narcissist actively solicits Narcissistic Supply – adulation, compliments, admiration, subservience, attention, being feared – from others in order to sustain his fragile and dysfunctional Ego. Thus, he constantly courts possible rejection, criticism, disagreement, and even mockery.

The narcissist is, therefore, dependent on other people. He is aware of the risks associated with such all-pervasive and essential dependence. He resents his weakness and dreads possible disruptions in the flow of his drug: Narcissistic Supply. He is caught between the rock of his habit and the hard place of his frustration. No wonder he is prone to raging, lashing and acting out, and to pathological, all-consuming envy (all expressions of pent-up aggression).

The narcissist's thinking is magical. In his own mind, the narcissist is brilliant, perfect, omnipotent, omniscient, and unique. Compliments and observations that accord with this inflated self-image ("The False Self") are taken for granted and as a matter of course.

Having anticipated the praise as fully justified and in accordance with (his) "reality", the narcissist feels that his traits, behavior, and "accomplishments" have made the accolades and kudos happen, have generated them, and have brought them into being. He "annexes" positive input and feels, irrationally, that its source is internal, not external; that it is emanating from inside himself, not from outside, independent sources. He, therefore, takes positive narcissistic supply lightly.

The narcissist treats disharmonious input - criticism, or disagreement, or data that negate the his self-perception - completely differently. He accords a far greater weight to these types of countervailing, challenging, and destabilizing information because they are felt by him to be "more real" and coming verily from the outside. Obviously, the narcissist cannot cast himself as the cause and source of opprobrium, castigation, and mockery.

This sourcing and weighing asymmetry is the reason for the narcissist's disproportionate reactions to perceived insults. He simply takes them as more "real" and more "serious". The narcissist is constantly on the lookout for slights. He is hypervigilant. He perceives every disagreement as criticism and every critical remark as complete and humiliating rejection: nothing short of a threat. Gradually, his mind turns into a chaotic battlefield of paranoia and ideas of reference.

Most narcissists react defensively. They become conspicuously indignant, aggressive, and cold. They detach emotionally for fear of yet another (narcissistic) injury. They devalue the person who made the disparaging remark, the critical comment, the unflattering observation, the innocuous joke at the narcissist's expense.

By holding the critic in contempt, by diminishing the stature of the discordant conversant – the narcissist minimises the impact of the disagreement or criticism on himself. This is a defence mechanism known as cognitive dissonance.

Narcissistic Rage

Narcissists can be imperturbable, resilient to stress, and sangfroid. Narcissistic rage is not a reaction to stress – it is a reaction to a perceived slight, insult, criticism, or disagreement (in other words, to narcissistic injury). It is intense and disproportional to the "offence".
Raging narcissists usually perceive their reaction to have been triggered by an intentional provocation with a hostile purpose. Their targets, on the other hand, invariably regard raging narcissists as incoherent, unjust, and arbitrary.

Narcissistic rage should not be confused with anger, though they have many things in common.

It is not clear whether action diminishes anger or anger is used up in action – but anger in healthy persons is diminished through action and expression. It is an aversive, unpleasant emotion. It is intended to generate action in order to reduce frustration. Anger is coupled with physiological arousal.

Another enigma is:

Do we become angry because we say that we are angry, thus identifying the anger and capturing it – or do we say that we are angry because we are angry to begin with?

Anger is provoked by adverse treatment, deliberately or unintentionally inflicted. Such treatment must violate either prevailing conventions regarding social interactions or some otherwise a deeply ingrained sense of what is fair and what is just. The judgement of fairness or justice is a cognitive function impaired in the narcissist.

Anger is induced by numerous factors. It is almost a universal reaction. Any threat to one's welfare (physical, emotional, social, financial, or mental) is met with anger. So are threats to one's affiliates, nearest, dearest, nation, favourite football club, pet and so on. The territory of anger includes not only the angry person himself, but also his real and perceived environment and social milieu.

Threats are not the only situations to incite anger. Anger is also the reaction to injustice (perceived or real), to disagreements, and to inconvenience (discomfort) caused by dysfunction.

Still, all manner of angry people – narcissists or not – suffer from a cognitive deficit and are worried and anxious. They are unable to conceptualise, to design effective strategies, and to execute them. They dedicate all their attention to the here and now and ignore the future consequences of their actions. Recent events are judged more relevant and weighted more heavily than any earlier ones. Anger impairs cognition, including the proper perception of time and space.

In all people, narcissists and normal, anger is associated with a suspension of empathy. Irritated people cannot empathise. Actually, "counter-empathy" develops in a state of aggravated anger. The faculties of judgement and risk evaluation are also altered by anger. Later provocative acts are judged to be more serious than earlier ones – just by "virtue" of their chronological position.

Yet, normal anger results in taking some action regarding the source of frustration (or, at the very least, the planning or contemplation of such action). In contrast, pathological rage is mostly directed at oneself, displaced, or even lacks a target altogether.

Narcissists often vent their anger at "insignificant" people. They yell at a waitress, berate a taxi driver, or publicly chide an underling. Alternatively, they sulk, feel anhedonic or pathologically bored, drink, or do drugs – all forms of self-directed aggression.

From time to time, no longer able to pretend and to suppress their rage, they have it out with the real source of their anger. Then they lose all vestiges of self-control and rave like lunatics. They shout incoherently, make absurd accusations, distort facts, and air long-suppressed grievances, allegations and suspicions.

These episodes are followed by periods of saccharine sentimentality and excessive flattering and submissiveness towards the victim of the latest rage attack. Driven by the mortal fear of being abandoned or ignored, the narcissist repulsively debases and demeans himself.

Most narcissists are prone to be angry. Their anger is always sudden, raging, frightening and without an apparent provocation by an outside agent. It would seem that narcissists are in a CONSTANT state of rage, which is effectively controlled most of the time. It manifests itself only when the narcissist's defences are down, incapacitated, or adversely affected by circumstances, inner or external.

Pathological anger is neither coherent, not externally induced. It emanates from the inside and it is diffuse, directed at the "world" and at "injustice" in general. The narcissist is capable of identifying the IMMEDIATE cause of his fury. Still, upon closer scrutiny, the cause is likely to be found lacking and the anger excessive, disproportionate, and incoherent.

It might be more accurate to say that the narcissist is expressing (and experiencing) TWO layers of anger, simultaneously and always. The first layer, of superficial ire, is indeed directed at an identified target, the alleged cause of the eruption. The second layer, however, incorporates the narcissist's self-aimed wrath.

Narcissistic rage has two forms:

I. Explosive – The narcissist flares up, attacks everyone in his immediate vicinity, causes damage to objects or people, and is verbally and psychologically abusive.
II. Pernicious or Passive-Aggressive (P/A) – The narcissist sulks, gives the silent treatment, and is plotting how to punish the transgressor and put her in her proper place. These narcissists are vindictive and often become stalkers. They harass and haunt the objects of their frustration. They sabotage and damage the work and possessions of people whom they regard to be the sources of their mounting wrath.


When deprived of narcissistic supply - primary AND secondary - I feel annulled. It is a strange sensation, I am not sure it can be described.

Words, after all, do exist. But it is very much like being hollowed out, mentally disemboweled or watching oneself die. It is a cosmic evaporation, disintegrating into molecules of terrified anguish, helplessly and inexorably.

I lived through this twice and I would do anything not to go through it again. It is by far the most nightmarish experience I ever had in a rather febrile life.

I want to tell you now what happens to narcissists when deprived of narcissistic supply of any kind (secondary or primary). Perhaps it will make it easier for you to understand why the narcissist pursues narcissistic supply so fervently, so relentlessly and so ruthlessly. Without narcissistic supply - the narcissist crumbles, he disintegrates like the zombies or the vampires in horror movies. It is terrifying and the narcissist will do anything to avoid it. Think about the narcissist as a drug addict. His withdrawal symptoms are identical: delusions, physiological effects, irritability, emotional liability.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 22, 2009 12:24PM


Dave McKay has hurt many families including Joe's family.

It won't help anyone in the group to engage in name calling and it's against the rules to personally attack members of the message board.

Stick to the issue, which is Dave McKay and his behavior as the leader of the group, etc.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: yasmin ()
Date: June 22, 2009 10:03PM

lee 1983
Your posts are not making sense.
You contradict yourself from one post to the next.
(first you say: "I don't want to post on Dave Mackays forum because they collect IP addresses") then the next day in a "letter to Grace" you say you have posted on and been banned from the forum.
Per Lisa at the Jesus Christian forum, this is not true, as no one has been banned recently.
And their appears to be no record of your posts there.

you state you are desperate for information and list questions, but do not post on the ex members site where you could get the information you say you are desperate for.

You use names of group members, who you say have been communicating with you, or writing letters, none of whom have heard of you.

Kevin on the ex member forum states "Ok, Lee 1983 does indeed sound suss.Since I have never written to Grace and Grace has never heard of Lee it seems like some kind of cruel hoax."
If all you are doing is practicing your creative insults Lee1983, then may I suggest that you are doing nothing but filling up the thread with useless and inapporpriate "white noise"?

There may be an explanation for your contradictory actions.
If so I apologise. Otherwise, perhaps a creative writing website may be more appropriate?
All the best, Yasmin

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2009 10:04PM by yasmin.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 23, 2009 11:39AM

Lee1983 has been banned from this measage board.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Sparky ()
Date: June 24, 2009 05:34AM

It will never cease to amaze me the crassness of some posters who then are "stunned" to be banned from the forum. Very few sites are as well moderated as this one which is one reason this is a favourite of mine.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: July 05, 2009 12:49AM


What a month for news! It's hard to know where to start.


The team in Kenya has been struggling through one adversity after

While doing business in Nairobi, Rob's inside zippered coat pocket
was picked yet again. ($140 this time.)

Joe was stopped from flying out to the UK at the start of the month
because he did not have enough cash on him to impress the UK
Immigration. We rushed some funds to him and he was allowed to board
the next flight.

A local man with psychiatric problems and violent tendencies tried
hitting a lady in the market one day which set a lot of the villagers
into stoning him. He was hit by quite a number of very large rocks
and was almost certainly going to be killed, before Rob and Fran
ventured into the fray to see if they could assist him.
Unfortunately Rob and Fran's presence did not stop people from
continuing to throw rocks and so both of them were inadvertently hit
as well. They did manage to get the man out of trouble and walked
him to the police station about 50 metres down the road. A couple of
days later he was back in the market singing songs! Some of the
locals seemed upset that Rob and Fran helped him, while others
thought it was great that they helped. Unfortunately we can, so
often, feel the tension just under the surface here, and it does seem
that some people are just waiting for an excuse to inflict violence.

That same week Karl, while working with some iron sheets, dropped one
on his ankle severely cutting his ankle and tendon. He is hobbling
around as best he can at the moment with a cast on his foot to help
the tendon heal. The cast will be on for a few more weeks.

Still in that same week Eunice, our dog, was spayed. The vet came
and performed the operation here at Takatifu Gardens with Robin and
Kim assisting! Kim was a bit squeamed out by it all. Eunice is
almost fully recovered now.

In the past week we have experienced a mini epidemic with Bob, Kim,
and Jon coming down with typhoid fever. They are under medication
now, and should make a full recovery.

The typhoid outbreak happened while Rob and Simon have been away to
Malawi to renew Simon's visa. Christine was in hospital, caring for
a child that had gone into convulsions and was having difficulties
breathing as a result of a very high fever; so that left almost no
one to keep things going and to nurse the others back at the compound.
Kim and Bob both pushed on with chores despite the illness.

And finally, Rob and Simon were in a motorbike accident this week,
while away, and for a while we thought that Simon's ankle had been
broken. In the end, it turned out to be just a very bad sprain,
which had partly torn a tendon.

But there were nicer things that happened too:

Bob arrived from the UK the day before Joe left, bringing obscene
amounts of bin-raided turkish delight with him from the UK.

On the 26th, Ross popped in on his way back to Australia, with a DVD
of "Dating the Enemy" (see below), copies of "Destroyers" from the UK,
and copies of "Extreme Happiness".

A young man from Zimbabwe, and a newly married Australian couple have
joined as temporary volunteers. Our Zimbabwean friend has shown a
keen interest in the Christian aspect of our work, and has been
coming out with us distributing Christian literature on the weekends.

Just before Rob and Simon left for Malawi, Rob and Chris took a trip
to Nairobi and had some fellowship with Ross, and also with Casey and
Giddy who are both working there. Casey and Giddy have been getting
out almost 1,000 books a week, on top of more than 1,000 Easy English
books that are going out each week through a local agent. Giddy also
came and visited us in Shinyalu earlier in the month.

Casey is doing a computer programming course, and he has started a
visitation program for a couple of the local hospitals, with ten
people committed to visiting on a regular basis now. As if that
isn't enough to keep him busy, he is also training for a local
marathon. Will he have what it takes to beat the Kenyans???

We have also had literature outreaches to Kitale and Kisumu, as well
as our regular outreaches to Kakamega.


After two years of waiting, ITV finally broadcast the episode of
"Dating the Enemy" that involved Alf and an adult film star. It was
a powerful testimony not just for freeganism but for good old-
fashioned Christian values with regard to casual sex. Great job, Alf!

You can view the show online by clicking here:


It comes in four sections, of about five minutes each. Our apologies
if it takes quite a while to download. (perhaps you can do your
email while it is downloading!)

Roland's mother, Carmen, who has been supportive of the community for
the many years since Roland has been a member, is sadly suffering
from the final stages of cancer. Carmen is staying with Roland's
sister in New Zealand. Roland spent a month with his mother and
sister last October and he has been able to talk with her almost
every day from London on the phone.

Bobby Kelly (Yeah, the guy we supposedly kidnapped ten years ago!)
came and spent a week with Rols, Sue, and Dann during the month. Our
relationship with Bob continues to deepen.

Alf and Jayme continue to have great success in getting the message
out in Ireland, despite Ross having left to return to Oz. They are
due to be interviewed on a radio talk show in the next few days.
They also spent 10 days baby-sitting as many Labradors, and house-
sitting high above a lake with breathtaking views! They took the
opportunity to give their camper van an external and internal make-

Jayme cut his finger badly enough to think he might need stitches.
Hospital staff gave him steri strips to hold it together, and then
charged 100 euros ($200) as their standard "consultation" fee. In
the end, they waived it, but not without some hassles along the way.

Paul met a guy who has just written a book about how people can help
each other without using money. Naturally, he was interested in the
similarities between his message and our own.


Joe, Jeremy and Reinhard will be giving depositions in L.A. over the
next couple of weeks, in preparation for the trial in August of John
and Jared, for the attack on Reinhard that almost killed him. We
have obtained video footage of just fifteen seconds of an attack
which lasted for almost two minutes, and that left Reinhard with a
fractured spine, bleeding on the brain, broken teeth and glasses, and
many other cuts and bruises. Warning: The video depicts graphic
violence, which some people may find disturbing.



With Ross back, Barry has been freed up from hanging around with Dave
and Cherry, so that the two of them can travel farther afield with
the message. They have, however, been busily upgrading a few things
on the bus first: waterproofing leaks in the roof, installing a new
fridge, and repairing a lock on the door.


The hate campaign against ourselves continues to grow on the internet,
with one particularly virulent poster pouring out hatred against Dave,
Joe, and Sue in particular on our own forum.


Others of a similar bent have posted on the youtube video links and
on the forums which traditionally spread hatred against ourselves.

A thread on teen sex, celibacy, and The Family was started this month,
and has been particularly active:


Another thread about creationism has seen Dave and Lisa come closer
together in their opposing viewpoints:


News about altruistic kidney donations increasing in the UK was
offset by news that a live kidney donor in Australia died while
donating to her daughter.


A summary of Jared's testimony about the beating of Reinhard, where
he talks of Jesus Christians standing in a circle doing karate poses
and chanting "Killers for Christ! Killers for Christ!" would be
worth a laugh if it were not for the seriousness of the attack that
he is trying to justify through those outrageous lies. (One
correction to what is stated, about police agreeing not to lay
charges: In fact, police DID lay charges, but they did not provide
the court with any evidence, including the video footage mentioned
above, even though they had it, so that the court had no way of
knowing whether the assault might just have been a slap on the wrist;
consequently the judge agreed to not record a conviction, even though
Jared and John pleaded guilty.)


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: muppet ()
Date: July 05, 2009 11:45PM

Two things I want to say here

1. With regard to Lee 1983, he is the type of poster that Dave loves to see on this board and on any other forum that is critical of him. Posters like Lee 1983 leave a trail of confusion and ill repute in their wake nd Dave loves that.

2. Dave has made the following point on his board here []. ... 432#p26432

Of course, when you read the teachings of Jesus, you learn that prayer is private and should take place in a "closet" anyway, thus indicating that it is like sex, not something to be taught or demonstrated, but something that each person has to work out in their own relationship with God

He makes this as a serious point, disregarding Mt 7 where Jesus taught his disciples how to pray and also the scriptural teaching ' where two or more are gathered in my name' .
Dave overlooks the fact that the disciples saw Jesus praying and asked him to teach them about prayer. He did not refuse or tell them to go and figure it out for themselves. He taught them how to pray. This comment demonstrates how Dave confuses those he teaches and how he leads them away from the truth.

It is untrue that each individual has to work out what prayer is or indeed what sex is.
In fact the world would be a strange place if knowledge was not passed on or taught. Only someone who is trying to confuse or promote ignorance would say such a thing.
We know tht we should always beware of a cult leader who promotes ignorance as a necessary voyage of discovery for each individual. In such a world, we are not permitted to share or pass on any knowledge, so there can never be any meaningful pogression because everyone is reinventing the wheel.
Noone is passing on anything they have learned to anyone else so everyone is wandering around, bumping into one another in a confused state. This is upopia for a cult leader.

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