This is what I found under the Mind Control section here at RR:

Quote

Suggested tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious:
Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts
Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.
Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").
Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea.
Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.
Quantify, wherever possible.
If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.
"Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.
Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, is it testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?

It really did seem like Samuel was practicing these recommended steps, while some others were saying they didn't want debate at all, for example.

furry faerie:

Interesting that you brought up "Occams razor," ehich is the basic principle that most obvious explanation is usually correct.

The most obvious explanation as to why Dave McKay has a history of serious complaints, bad press and abuse allegations surrounding his behavior over the years, is because he is an abusive and destructive leader.

Egypt/Samuel, chose to ignore this.

The most obvious explanation for the behavior of Egypt/Samuel at this thread, was that was an Internet troll. He never demonstrated any serious interest in the facts.

And though there is debate here, there is also a rule against trolls, which everyone that signs up agrees to before posting here.

Egypt/Samuel knew that and agreed to the rules.

There have been a number of trolls on this thread historically and trolls will be banned.

Furry, Egypt has now gone to the JC's claiming he was being persecuted on this thread, and as result has had his "initiation" and "baptism of fire" and that any here who wrote expressing an opinion that he be allowed to remain here only did so at the behooves of Rick. Stay tuned to the JC site for what happens to him over there. His length of stay there will be determined by how close he gets and how much he says.

He was offering no points of debate. He only asked questions.

Furry, in that passage you posted I thought the line "Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?" particularly relevant as there are many here who "experimented" with living in a JC community and of whom got the same result. The only apparent difference in the result to this point has been the length of time it took for the same conclusion to be drawn. How is your experiment coming along?

Some feedback Egypt is receiving from a JC member: [welikejesus.com]
This is a very significant point to dwell on for all who are enquiring further into the truth. If someone isn't prepared to experience this kind of persecution, would they be willing to face their own (or a loved one's) death brought about by their stance for the truth. I sure hope I make it!

It truly is a combination of laughable and sad that EE thought he was being persecuted here and the JC's feed such nonsense to foster their own ends. Already they have begun the work of equating criticism from an outside source with persecution thereby drawing the net around him.

Hope to see you after you see through the propped up "pharaoh" Egypt. He is going to put you, your wife, and children to work building his little pyramid monument to himself....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2008 06:02AM by apostate.

Thank you for pointing these out, once again, FF

Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts

I asked David McKay to produce the contact details for Vicki (or any other recent ex-member such as Jose) in order that Samuel could verify whether or not the criticisms of the JesusChristians were accurate. You of course could probably do this yourself, Furry Faerie, but, of course like David, you prefer to prevent confirmation of facts (such as your practice of throwing ex-members out without a cent despite the years of unpaid labour they have devoted to the "struggle") by disempowering those who would question you.... I note that Samuel has failed to acknowledge Barbiedoll's "independant comfirmation" that you are in servitude of a cult.

Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

While naturally keeping in mind any anticipated bias, that a given "knowledgeable proponent" may have....You furry faerie, have no independent income or resources of your own, have been lead to believe that communicating meaningfully with anyone external to the JesusChristians, would be evidence of the "weakness" of your faith, and (presumably) would happily ex-communicate any former "brother or sister" in the faith immediately David instructs you to do so.....owing to the decisions that you have taken to live in servitude to David McKay, ....you (and the majority of other members) are nothing more than "knowledgeable" toadies.

Samuel is asking someone who would directly materially benefit from any decision he made to "forsake all" for their independent opinion....you are ethically disqualified from participating in "substantive debate", where you would directly benefit. Please provide Samuel with the most recent independent audit of the JC finances. If you do have such a document, (David has registered you as a "company" in Aust. I believe), the evidence would suggest you are a fraud.

Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").

Hence, we wonder why Samuel has placed more weight on Davids' protestations of innocence, than the evidence against him, however in particular Furry Faeire, could you please confirm, once and for all, before those who peruse these pages....Do you seriously believe that David is entitled to describe himself as an "Apostle of God"? From your erudite quotes drawn from the hours you have spent diligently studying this site, we surely couldn't then assume that you would just hypocritically grant David such "authority", could we FF?.

Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea.

Please see the "Malcolm Wrest" heresy to understand how David responds to a "Hypothesis" that is not of his own making. Your role in the wider world of the JesusChristians, FF, is to sit up and applaud enthusiastically, before positively sprinting away on the first idea, David presents you with. (e.g. Organ Harvesting)

Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.

Your "hypothesis" FF, is that as ONLY the Jesuschristians really "live by faith", you are the ONLY "real" Christians in the whole wide world, and as the "means justify the ends" (after all, what could possibly be more important than "eternal life" in the "Kingdom of Heaven"), you are then entitled to indulge to disobey the teachings of Christ in the course of "promoting " the teachings of Christ through welfare fraud ("spoiling Egypt" as David would have commanded you, having purloined the idea, from the Children of God), misrepresentation (Exactly how did you acquire that land in Kenya again?), blackmail and extortion (You wouldn't mind providing the contact number for Betty's father in Kenya would FF, or indeed, the contact number of ANY parent of a current member, would you FF) and fraud (What exactly are the conditions you place on new members, FF...sign over everything you have to us, with no written acknowledgement or legal protection at all?).

Please...PLEASE, don't get too attached to this hypothesis of yours, FF!

Quantify, wherever possible.

(By way of one, solitary example out of many possible examples)...How many media articles (and insurance payments and "out of pocket" claims have you taken advantage of) have the JesusChristians deliberately sought to arrange for themselves from their "organ harvesting"....Please compare this with the media coverage any OTHER altruistic donors has ever received.....do tell, Furry Faerie!! Please "quantify" away for us all!!

If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.

David tells me what the "bible" says...He says the he's the Apostle of God and that ONLY the JesusChristians are the true Church of Christ....if I don't kowtow to him, I'll be thrown out on the streets with nothing.....I must spend my waking hours distributing his woeful writings in order to retain my status as a "leader" and keep the access to the meagre food and board that I have....I will deny the circumstance I am actually in, in order to to improve the quality of the Christian "witness", I must make, to satisfy what David tells me "God" requires of me.....PLEASE LOOK AGAIN AT THE FIRST LINK!!!

"Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.

David has betrayed everyone he has ever managed to persuade to trust him, however briefly.

The (conservative) three to one ratio of ex-members to current members (60 - "20") is due to the fact that "narrow is the way" and "few are those" who follow it and ALL those who have left, are in the process of leaving, or who ever will leave in the future (including that faithless Furry Faerie!) are nothing more than the "bittered, twisted, embittered hate mongers" that David always knew that they were, but in his kindness persevered with (while he was reliving them of everything that they owned) in order to someone save them from themselves, and from the evil influence of their parents, because everyone has parents who are who faithless "systemites" unlike Apostle David, who is an example of a true "father" (apart from the three of his four children who have ungraciously turned their backs on him, because they chose not to follow God, when they decided to question David.......)......and so on and so on!

Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, is it testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?

FF, by mandatory decree from his Apostle, compulsorily sells stipulated numbers of David McKays booklets (writings that have frequently been stolen from LeHaye and else where) lives on refuse, in small van, with no legal protection against any exploitation he may suffer....and tells the world that the JesusChristians live by faith in "God".....I would like FF to put forward a "testable" procedure which might persuade all those external to his little universe that he does NOT in fact, simply live by faith in David McKay!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2008 10:58PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Dave is continuing with his persecution angle today, arguing that he is being treated unfairly and that it defies all logic. As if he has done nothing to contribute to the situation he now finds himself in:

Dave’s Quote:

“It also has something to do with Jesus returning. We've been talking about that for a long time and still it is very difficult for me to even begin to imagine it really happening. So much of my natural reasoning says that sooner or later the general public, the media, the courts... someone, is going to see that we are being treated very unfairly. But that is not happening. It defies all logic, for example, why the police should ask that Jared Johnson's conviction for assault with a deadly weapon on Reinhard be reduced to a "misdemeanour" (on a par with a parking violation) on the grounds that Reinhard had it coming because he is a Jesus Christian!”

Is the above example he gives a true indication of what occurred and is still occurring with this matter?

The facts are, Rheinhard and Jeremy were on private property, determined to remove Joe to become a “missionary”. They allegedly refused to leave and Rheinhard allegedly resisted efforts to make them leave. It appears that they had to be pushed out of the house.

There was no “deadly weapon” used by the person/s who allegedly assaulted him. Can Dave name the weapon?

As has been previously pointed out (in previous posts on this matter) the California charge is an either/or. Assault with a deadly weapon or with force likely to produce great bodily injury. In this case, the latter part of the charge applies. Dave knows this but likes to continue to imply a weapon was used, as it appears to suits his agenda.

Dave gleefully posted the Police report earlier in the year on the Jesus Christians Forum. However, when you read the Police Officer’s interview with Rheinhard, certain truths emerge:

From the Police Officer’s report:

“I contacted Reinhard, who stated that he did not remember a lot about the incident because he had lost consciousness. He said that he and Jeremy went to the residence to talk to Joe's parents about him becoming a missionary. The parents did not like that their son wanted to be a missionary and became angry at him, and Jeremy and Reinhard were pushed out of the residence and into the yard where Jared assaulted Reinhard. Reinhard was concerned for the safety of Joe, and resisted being pushed out of the house. He thought they might hold Joe captive and not allow him to become a missionary.”

The alleged assault of Rheinhard is regrettable. However, fortunately a month later, he was pictured (we have the photo) at the Kentucky Transplant games positively beaming and he also participated in a 5km race.

So why is Dave really concerned about the charges being reduced to a misdemeanor? After all, he has already held his own trial and has taken the punishment on behalf of the accused. Does he want them punished further? or is about maximizing the damages payment? Surely not, as member’s burn money and go around with signs stating it is the root of all evil. Why then can he not simply forgive and stop continuing to make out that the persons involved are worse than serial murders and rapists?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2008 11:48PM by private eyes.

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Thank you for pointing these out, once again, FF

Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts

I asked David McKay to produce the contact details for Vicki (or any other recent ex-member such as Jose) in order that Samuel could verify whether or not the criticisms of the JesusChristians were accurate. You of course could probably do this yourself, Furry Faerie, but, of course like David, you prefer to prevent confirmation of facts (such as your practice of throwing ex-members out without a cent despite the years of unpaid labour they have devoted to the "struggle") by disempowering those who would question you.... I note that Samuel has failed to acknowledge Barbiedoll's "independant comfirmation" that you are in servitude of a cult.

Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

While naturally keeping in mind any anticipated bias, that a given "knowledgeable proponent" may have....You furry faerie, have no independent income or resources of your own, have been lead to believe that communicating meaningfully with anyone external to the JesusChristians, would be evidence of the "weakness" of your faith, and (presumably) would happily ex-communicate any former "brother or sister" in the faith immediately David instructs you to do so.....owing to the decisions that you have taken to live in servitude to David McKay, ....you (and the majority of other members) are nothing more than "knowledgeable" toadies.

Samuel is asking someone who would directly materially benefit from any decision he made to "forsake all" for their independent opinion....you are ethically disqualified from participating in "substantive debate", where you would directly benefit. Please provide Samuel with the most recent independent audit of the JC finances. If you do have such a document, (David has registered you as a "company" in Aust. I believe), the evidence would suggest you are a fraud.

Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").

Hence, we wonder why Samuel has placed more weight on Davids' protestations of innocence, than the evidence against him, however in particular Furry Faeire, could you please confirm, once and for all, before those who peruse these pages....Do you seriously believe that David is entitled to describe himself as an "Apostle of God"? From your erudite quotes drawn from the hours you have spent diligently studying this site, we surely couldn't then assume that you would just hypocritically grant David such "authority", could we FF?.

Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea.

Please see the "Malcolm Wrest" heresy to understand how David responds to a "Hypothesis" that is not of his own making. Your role in the wider world of the JesusChristians, FF, is to sit up and applaud enthusiastically, before positively sprinting away on the first idea, David presents you with. (e.g. Organ Harvesting)

Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.

Your "hypothesis" FF, is that as ONLY the Jesuschristians really "live by faith", you are the ONLY "real" Christians in the whole wide world, and as the "means justify the ends" (after all, what could possibly be more important than "eternal life" in the "Kingdom of Heaven"), you are then entitled to indulge to disobey the teachings of Christ in the course of "promoting " the teachings of Christ through welfare fraud ("spoiling Egypt" as David would have commanded you, having purloined the idea, from the Children of God), misrepresentation (Exactly how did you acquire that land in Kenya again?), blackmail and extortion (You wouldn't mind providing the contact number for Betty's father in Kenya would FF, or indeed, the contact number of ANY parent of a current member, would you FF) and fraud (What exactly are the conditions you place on new members, FF...sign over everything you have to us, with no written acknowledgement or legal protection at all?).

Please...PLEASE, don't get too attached to this hypothesis of yours, FF!

Quantify, wherever possible.

(By way of one, solitary example out of many possible examples)...How many media articles (and insurance payments and "out of pocket" claims have you taken advantage of) have the JesusChristians deliberately sought to arrange for themselves from their "organ harvesting"....Please compare this with the media coverage any OTHER altruistic donors has ever received.....do tell, Furry Faerie!! Please "quantify" away for us all!!

If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.

David tells me what the "bible" says...He says the he's the Apostle of God and that ONLY the JesusChristians are the true Church of Christ....if I don't kowtow to him, I'll be thrown out on the streets with nothing.....I must spend my waking hours distributing his woeful writings in order to retain my status as a "leader" and keep the access to the meagre food and board that I have....I will deny the circumstance I am actually in, in order to to improve the quality of the Christian "witness", I must make, to satisfy what David tells me "God" requires of me.....PLEASE LOOK AGAIN AT THE FIRST LINK!!!

"Occam's razor" - if there are two hypothesis that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.

David has betrayed everyone he has ever managed to persuade to trust him, however briefly.

The (conservative) three to one ratio of ex-members to current members (60 - "20") is due to the fact that "narrow is the way" and "few are those" who follow it and ALL those who have left, are in the process of leaving, or who ever will leave in the future (including that faithless Furry Faerie!) are nothing more than the "bittered, twisted, embittered hate mongers" that David always knew that they were, but in his kindness persevered with (while he was reliving them of everything that they owned) in order to someone save them from themselves, and from the evil influence of their parents, because everyone has parents who are who faithless "systemites" unlike Apostle David, who is an example of a true "father" (apart from the three of his four children who have ungraciously turned their backs on him, because they chose not to follow God, when they decided to question David.......)......and so on and so on!

Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, is it testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?

FF, by mandatory decree from his Apostle, compulsorily sells stipulated numbers of David McKays booklets (writings that have frequently been stolen from LeHaye and else where) lives on refuse, in small van, with no legal protection against any exploitation he may suffer....and tells the world that the JesusChristians live by faith in "God".....I would like FF to put forward a "testable" procedure which might persuade all those external to his little universe that he does NOT in fact, simply live by faith in David McKay!

This is all leading to a reductio ad absurdum. Testable? Evidence? Independent verification? Malcolm, you again have more patience for all this line-by-line talk than do I. It's ridiculous to try and "scientifically" determine as to whether or not DM is a destructive leader, a psychopath, a narcissist IMO. Let's go back to the basics, please.

We are looking for financial accountability and transparency within the JC organization, political accountability and transparency within the JC organization, as well as for educational requirements for the JC leadership. It boils down to levels of accountability.

Let's be careful with our terms here. When I say that the JC fits the criteria to be called a "destructive group" or "cult", I make that judgment as based on these three criteria (as described by Lifton):

1) Is there an authoritarian leader running the show with no meaningful accountability? YES

2) Are there doctrines and/or techniques in place that involve a process of systematically molding the minds of the members in serving the leader and the "cause"? YES

3) Are the members, particularly the "inner circle" close to the leader, exploited financially, sexually, psychologically, etc. BY the leader? YES

A healthy church or religious group has a democratically-elected leadership with a written constitution and bylaws that the leadership is governed by and held ACCOUNTABLE to.

A healthy group is a FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE AND TRANSPARENT group. This holds as well for the finances of its leaders; their salaries, etc. are in the public record. Where does all the money come from? Where does it go? Who controls it?

A healthy church or religious group has EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS at the topmost levels for its leadership.

The JCs are missing all of these.

Hahaha Now I sound like I'M reading right out of a textbook! Egypt, FF, it's your call. Can you handle the truth?

What more "proof" do you need?

The Dude Abides!

Casey asks: [welikejesus.com]
So, if Dave was not disconnecting the battery of a severely terminally mentally retarded boy's wheelchair to stop him from driving into traffic or some other dangerous area, and he wasn't stopping some kind of temper tantrum from a naughty boy then why would he have disconnected the battery (if he did indeed disconnect it)?

Let me repaste what I originally said: [forum.culteducation.com]

"Let me jog your memory Dave. The boy was not using his chair as a "weapon" as you claim. He was in fact trying to get away from YOU, and it was on a day when the then community would jog around the block. It was outside the Geelong house on the footpath. Is your memory returning yet? You DID meet the mother as I remember her clearly tearing strips off you saying that what you had done was tantamount to cutting his legs off. YOU did it yourself in clear contravention of how the woman parented her child. She was horrified. Ross would remember this. This child would be unlikley to live till he was 18 due to the nature of his disease"

The mother was horrified and very angry at Dave for doing this. She did not thank Dave, but instead saw his action as comparable to cutting his legs off. It is interesting that you could see Dave's action in doing this justifiable Casey, even though the mother (the boys permanent carer) clearly did not. Which brings on the point I made about Dave being unwilling to be told anything by anyone, even survivors of Jonestown.

That line-by-line response from Malcolm I found to be confusing as hell. Reductio ad Absurdum. No offense intended there, Mal.

I am in a list-making mood. Let's try and make this as basic as possible.

For the hundred and first time: it's not what DM teaches that bothers me as much as what DM does. I do not "hate" any of the individual JCs, either, but I am very concerned for them (they are victims, little more than the props in DM's little fantasy world IMO) and have a strong personal dislike for DM himself. I believe him to be an intrinsically evil man, a sociopath, narcissist, and "cult leader." What he does to children and families is reprehensible. He's a very bad guy and you would be wise to get away from him. Good for you if you do, EE.

This is a cut and paste from something that I wrote last August 5 and also about a month ago.

Following are my five main (very generalized) points of objection to JC policy and procedure.

1) Witnessing to and agreeing to meet with minors who are "potentials" is wrong. Period. They have no business talking to any High Schooler who is not yet 18. David ought to respect the rights and boundaries of the parents of these kids and their parents.

2) They say they work for love and not money. OK, so what is with all of the constant money-generating schemes? What is with all of the organ and body-fluid donation? Why do they sell David's books on the street? To whom does all of the money go, and who controls it?

Basically, how come it seems like everybody in the JCs has to forsake all except for David and Cherry?

3) It seems to me that DM has put a legalistic over-emphasis on the red letters (Gal 2:16), and that the JCs constantly negatively judge other Christians and churches by that fallacious standard. Their collective attitude and MO seems heavy on judgment and is highly provocative, but I feel no grace from them. (Jam 2:13).

4) (related to 3) They all generally seem to have nothing but contempt for those who would question them. Where are the fruits of the Spirit in what the world can see of the JCs? (Gal 5:19-26)

5) When was the last time that Ash and Joseph called their mothers and told them that they love them? Why does DM seem to prevent parents from having open access to their own children?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2008 05:04AM by zeuszor.

The teachings of the JC's are what generate the actions.

He teaches that it is OK to whip people and his followers do it

He teaches that those with two should give to those who have none by John the baptist relates to body parts and his followers do it.

He teaches that you can be disloyal to mammon ("system") and his followers lie to and steal from it.

He teaches that he is an anointed apostle and his followers believe every word he says as 100% truth

Because, after all, what he teaches has nothing to do with what Jesus (nor the rest of the New Testament for that matter) teaches. He really does not care what the Bible says; therefore the emperor wears no clothes so to speak. The group basically sees him as God's end-time prophet and follows his words without question. Do I understand sir?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2008 05:36AM by zeuszor.