As Zeuszor would say, it's all revealed by the fruit of the tree. What a long and arduous journey this uncovering of McKay and Co. has been. No doubt the JCs are resilient enough to 'close the hatches and regroup', feel sorry for themselves a little more and milk every drop out of their persecution complexes. No doubt it will also have the effect of planting valuable seeds of 'truth' and knowledge far and wide.

I managed to view about 4 minutes of the Bebo taped-from-the-TV snippet where Brian is introduced. It was good to be able to put a name to a face. Well done, Zeuszor! And shame on McKay for coming across as some holier-than-thou father figure, avoiding questions by asking inane questions. I'm really looking forward to seeing the whole show.

It's a shame that a show about an American leading an Australian cult will be difficult to see in this country (Australia). Hopefully, soon, I'll get a copy of a DVD to be able to share it friends. I think this JK show will be a good tonic for many ex-members ...

And, yes, Dave's wife, Cherry, didn't look at all comfortable. Maybe she needs to go back to her well-thumbed copy of 'How To Be A Better Help-Meet'.

PS: I apologise for coming across as somewhat insensitive.

Jack, I managed to see about 30 minutes on Bebo, but you have to scroll around a bit to find them.

Having another quick look at the JC forum, I'm glad to see that Sue's treatment of the abuse survivor from The Chidren Of God Cult has been noticed by a couple of people.
The " conversations " that I've had with Sue have been of much the same ilk. I remember once calling to ask if she'd like to join a workshop about healing that I was arranging. It would have given the JC's a chance to meet lots of people from different religious backgrounds- ( and at that time)- I hoped it would enable them to move away from their cult status. There were Quakers, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, Rastafarians, Muslims etc. all coming together to learn something new and even more importantly to show love for one another.
She screeched, " We're not interested !"
When I asked " Why?" she just started screaming hysterically. " STAY AWAY FROM OUR COMMUNITY! STAY AWAY!"
I calmly asked her where she felt that Jesus was supporting her actions.
She said " I don't have to answer to you!" and hung up on me.

I was so pleased to see the same charm displayed on the Jeremy Kyle show for 1.4 million people to see.

Pls note when Sue raises her voice in a semi - hysterical fashion.
" Can't anyone see what's happenning here?!"

That's the same warm up act I had from her initially.. " No, no- I'm the victim here".....sings Sue....then she harangues and SNEERS at the Children Of God survivor.

But remember everyone....SUE is the victim!! I remember sitting with this woman who laughed as she recounted ' the amusing' tale.....of the Bobby Kelly incident. She takes NO RESPONSIBILITY for it at all. Fair enough....
Then there was the tale of how one of their members sexually assaulted a young boy. They didn't report it to the police because the parents understood.....the member they had taken in had learning difficulties...they taught him how to wash...and more importantly he responded well to the teachings..( I'll never forget when she said that)...they had a meeting amongst themselves - I believe it's called a ' grievance metting'- as within the JC's, everyone is accountable...went the song.
The decided to end all association with the member and he was banished from the group...".it's not about whether or not you re- offend...but PLEASE, PLEASE don't bring negative publicity to the JC's."
They're the innocent victims in all this..........
It's taken me far too long to speak out about some of the things I saw...yesterday was such clarity for me.
Just because Dave and Sue choose not to recognise abuse...it doesn't mean the rest of us should share their delusions.
ANY CHILD THAT YOUR EX- MEMBER GOES ONTO ASSAULT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILTY, SUE.

But, hey- don't think about it....just keep singing your song..........

Quote
matilda
Jack, I managed to see about 30 minutes on Bebo, but you have to scroll around a bit to find them.

Oh, I forgot to mention that it took almost an hour to download that 4 minutes...

I'll just have to wait patiently for a 'hard' copy.

Quote
apostate
Brian, I have to say after watching the JK show on Bebo that you did a good job of stating things how you saw them. Dave came off looking like the one with "problems". Well done.

Thank you, thank you. It is gratifying to me to know that I have made any kind of difference.

Telling DM off to his face, and then being applauded for it, is an experience that I shall never forget.

My analysis:

The seeking of attention and control are David's weaknesses. You're damned if you do and you are damned if you don't with him; he'll act out if you ignore him, and act out even worse if you pay attention. He is pathologically up to no good. He'll always play this "I am rubber and you are glue; whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you" projection game like a spoiled child if you criticize him and his behavior, and will always accuse his adversary of the exact same behavior the he himself is engaging in: "I am not manipulative/coercive/abusive/a bad person/whatever, YOU are!!!!!" Like the evil Pee-Wee Herman of cult leaders: "I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I?" Maddening immature games he'll play; they're designed to incite his opponent to show frustration and then lose his or her temper and then blow it somehow, thereby giving him (DM) an excuse to play the "You're persecuting me!" card cease and then communication unless it's on HIS terms.

He is somebody with the emotional intelligence, emotional maturity of a two-year-old child but with the body and intellect of an old man. I mean, has a good vocabulary, he apparently is oriented in time and place (who he is, where he is, what is going on, etc.), and is basically coherent in his presentation. Subjectively speaking though, his manner does seem play-acted, put on, and the look in his eyes (IMO) is totally vacant. Especially the eyes, the way he goes all bug-eyed when questioned is very telling.

What must his life have been like growing up? Were his parents generally nice to him? What was DM like as a child? These are the kinds of questions I ponder in idle moments. Why did he move to Australia to begin with; why didn't he try and start his own little cult in the States? So many holes in his bi so many unanswered questions. There's this one article where DM is talking a bit about his home life growing up; hmm, I'll find it and get back with y'all later.

As Zeuszor would say, it's all revealed by the fruit of the tree. What a long and arduous journey this uncovering of McKay and Co. has been. No doubt the JCs are resilient enough to 'close the hatches and regroup', feel sorry for themselves a little more and milk every drop out of their persecution complexes. No doubt it will also have the effect of planting valuable seeds of 'truth' and knowledge far and wide.

That's not what I said, Jack, that's what JESUS said. Matthew 7. Run that up the flagpole and see it it flies!

Yeah, and DM and his wife DO have all the warmth and charisma of a couple of audio-animatronic robots, especially her. What is wrong with these people?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2007 08:04AM by zeuszor.

Quote
hello
Having another quick look at the JC forum, I'm glad to see that Sue's treatment of the abuse survivor from The Chidren Of God Cult has been noticed by a couple of people.
The " conversations " that I've had with Sue have been of much the same ilk. I remember once calling to ask if she'd like to join a workshop about healing that I was arranging. It would have given the JC's a chance to meet lots of people from different religious backgrounds- ( and at that time)- I hoped it would enable them to move away from their cult status. There were Quakers, Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, Rastafarians, Muslims etc. all coming together to learn something new and even more importantly to show love for one another.
She screeched, " We're not interested !"
When I asked " Why?" she just started screaming hysterically. " STAY AWAY FROM OUR COMMUNITY! STAY AWAY!"
I calmly asked her where she felt that Jesus was supporting her actions.
She said " I don't have to answer to you!" and hung up on me.

I was so pleased to see the same charm displayed on the Jeremy Kyle show for 1.4 million people to see.

Pls note when Sue raises her voice in a semi - hysterical fashion.
" Can't anyone see what's happenning here?!"

That's the same warm up act I had from her initially.. " No, no- I'm the victim here".....sings Sue....then she harangues and SNEERS at the Children Of God survivor.

But remember everyone....SUE is the victim!! I remember sitting with this woman who laughed as she recounted ' the amusing' tale.....of the Bobby Kelly incident. She takes NO RESPONSIBILITY for it at all. Fair enough....
Then there was the tale of how one of their members sexually assaulted a young boy. They didn't report it to the police because the parents understood.....the member they had taken in had learning difficulties...they taught him how to wash...and more importantly he responded well to the teachings..( I'll never forget when she said that)...they had a meeting amongst themselves - I believe it's called a ' grievance metting'- as within the JC's, everyone is accountable...went the song.
The decided to end all association with the member and he was banished from the group...".it's not about whether or not you re- offend...but PLEASE, PLEASE don't bring negative publicity to the JC's."
They're the innocent victims in all this..........
It's taken me far too long to speak out about some of the things I saw...yesterday was such clarity for me.
Just because Dave and Sue choose not to recognise abuse...it doesn't mean the rest of us should share their delusions.
ANY CHILD THAT YOUR EX- MEMBER GOES ONTO ASSAULT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILTY, SUE.

But, hey- don't think about it....just keep singing your song..........

I feel so much better for getting that off my chest. Of course- do remember that the JC's don't really tolerate that sort of thing....just like The Chidren Of God......

Wall Street Journal article on Ash, DM, JC's and kidney donations:


[online.wsj.com]


And also here for writings from players:

[online.wsj.com]

From Wall Street Journal interview with David McKay regarding Ash's decision:

"Q: How do you reply to their allegation that their son was unable to make an independent decision on donation -- not because you were making him do it overtly, but because of enormous influence you and the group have over its members?

A: We have never denied that we have enormous influence, just as parents have enormous influence over their children."

And I guess that's where you have it, and what has been repeated over 194 pages of this forum.

David agrees that the influence he has over JC members is like parent-child influence. Parents control whether their children eat, whether they can go out, who they can see, place restrictions on what they say, mould what they think. When this kind of control is exerted by one adult over another, we call it a cultic relationship, because the person in the 'child' role is incapable of making an 'adult' decision because of the undue influence upon them.

And child abuse is where this control is detrimental to the health and welfare of the child. Not feeding them properly, whipping them for their spiritual growth, denying them proper education, exploiting them as cheap labour, or removing their organs for religious ritual would be examples of child abuse.

In the case of the Jesus Christians, it is cultic abuse.

COOL. THANKS BLACKHAT. CHECK OUT THESE:

Reject Us, Reject God

(February, 1998)

When you really love someone, and you see them making a serious mistake, there's never any satisfaction in saying, "I told you so," or in knowing that one day they're going to know that you were right and they were wrong. All that you really want is for them to correct the serious mistake that they're making.
But one of the cleverest tricks the devil has in his bag of tricks is the one where he gets you off the rails by telling you that you can blame someone else for it. Ironically, the one most likely to cop the blame is the one shouting the loudest that you're off the rails.
"Who are you to judge?" "I'm sick of your criticisms!" "Let me live my own life!" they all say, as we watch them walk away. They're not walking away from us so much as they are walking (or running) away from God.
"And now I suppose you think you're God?" they reply to that one.
Well, in a way... yeah.
Jesus said (John 13:20; John 15:20) that when we come in his name (i.e. really saying the things he said, and not just using his name as a cloak for teaching our own made-up doctrines) when we come teaching people to obey him, and they reject us, they're rejecting him.
Now we challenge anyone to show us someone who is more serious about teaching people to obey Jesus than we are.

[www.jesuschristians.net]

XXXX

[www.jesuschristians.net]

When we have done all that Jesus has instructed us to do, we should say merely that we are "unprofitable servants" who have done (at best) only what we were expected to do. (Luke 17:10) No need for accolades or rewards just for carrying out orders. If we will faithfully do that, we will be much closer to greatness than all those who feel the general public needs a little prompting to remind them about how great the 'messenger' is.

XXXX

As I write this, my father is dying. He has, as he has approached death, moved further away from the "churchy" idea of God and heaven that dominated his earlier life. All of the squabbles over minor points of doctrine seem so pointless now.
He still cannot discuss the teachings of Jesus with me (or with anyone else as far as I know); but facing death is putting many of our differences into better perspective now, and I count it a privilege to be near him at this time.
He told me that his big regret was that he did not learn some of the lessons that he is learning now, earlier in his life. And that is one of the signs of true conversion. You start seeing what absolute stupidity it is to follow lesser ideas of God than what Jesus and his life of love represented.
This deathbed vision of truth is what each of us needs to cultivate every day of our lives if we are going to truly live our lives the way that God intended for us to live them. We need to become obsessed with death in order to be obsessed with eternity; and we need to be obsessed with eternity in order to be obsessed with God, who is the source of all life. Anything less than that is just an obsession with religion.
When we stop running away from death, and reach out to it as one of the most important experiences of life, we will start to change in powerful and dramatic ways. Daydreams about dying and facing God are probably the deepest form of prayer that we can experience, and they should highlight every day of our lives. Work at it. And when you do, you will see what true "conversion" is all about. April, 1998

[www.jesuschristians.net]

XXXXX

(April, 1997)

By my bed is a photo of my parents, all my brothers and me gathered around my sister, who is sitting up in a hospital bed a week before she died. I look at it almost every day and think, "These are the little boys that I grew up with when I was a little boy. But we're old men now. And our parents... well, it's a surprise that they're still alive."

[www.jesuschristians.net]

XXXX

Me again:

I am kind of let down; I thought the WSJ piece was going to be stronger, more critical, you know? Still very good though.

Actually, the "meat" of the piece is in the correspondence between Ashwyn, his mom, and Dr. Levy. Also, as usual, DM proves to be his own worst enemy. I'll have to study this out. Thanks again, Mrs. Lowe. Hmmm......



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2007 01:19PM by zeuszor.

Look, as far as the "But you're not Jesus" bit: as far as I am concerned, David set himself up for that one. He practically handed it to me, you know?

Has anybody made L. Meckler aware of the JK show? I won't bother.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2007 02:14PM by zeuszor.