MORE ABOUT AR-TALK

Nobody at AR-Talk had heard of the JCs until I started posting about them there over a year ago. I have traded information with a few of the people within that network and they've always been very helpful. It's a great resource if you follow this type of thing.

[apologia.gospelcom.net]

[apologia.gospelcom.net]

[www.apologeticsindex.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2007 12:43PM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor,

Thank you for the AR talk link. It is a very useful resource.
There is a wealth of information and commentary about the Jesus Christians on the Apologetics Index which goes back eight or nine years. I will paste some of it here because it contains information that may have been removed from the JC site.

Quote
Apologetics Index

[www.apologeticsindex.org]

Jesus Christians


aka: Followers of the Lamb


Bobby Kelly It's Message End-time Focus On the term ''Cult''


Also calls itself ''Followers of the Lamb,'' ''Rappville Christians,'' or simply ''Christians.'' However, theologically this high-demand group is a cult of Christianity. The manipulative group also displays sociological cultic characteristics.

Among other things, it insists members reject their families, friends, and jobs. Based in Australia, but is active elsewhere as well (notably, England and India).

The group makes extra-Biblical demands, has a theology based on unsound Bible interpretations.

Leader: David McKay - believed to be a former member of the Children of God.

While the group militates - often in extreme ways - against established churches, denominations, and Christians who do not share the group's theology, ''Jesus Christians'' itself appears to have somewhat of a persecution complex.

Bobby Kelly

July 27, 2000

Bobby Kelly, the 16–year–old, who disappeared to join the Jesus Christians religious cult, a month ago, was found safe and well today, police said.

Officers from the Metropolitan Police kidnap and specialist investigations unit found Bobby in a tent with two men in a forest near Mytchett in Hampshire this morning, a Scotland Yard spokesman said.
[...more...]
Cult boy found living in a tent Independent (England), July 27, 2000

July 26, 2000

Missing teenager Bobby Kelly says he wants to dedciate the rest of his life to the religious group he disappeared with a month ago. The 16-year-old from Romford, Essex, is thought to be with members of the Jesus Christians, whom he met handing out leaflets just before he ran away from home.

In an interview with BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Wednesday, Bobby said the religious group was made up of "normal people".

The interview was broadcast after the BBC successfully challenged a gagging order in the High Court on Tuesday which had prevented it from reporting any interviews with the teenager.

The emergency ruling was granted to his family amid fears that the religious group planned to use the boy as a platform for its own ends.
[...more...]
Boy Speaks Out For Sect

» Listen to the July 26, 2000 BBC Radio 4 Interview with Bobby Kelly (RealAudio).

Background

A boy of 16 who vanished after joining a religious cult must be found, a judge
ordered yesterday.

Bobby Kelly met a member of The Jesus Christians handing out leaflets in Romford shopping centre, Essex, on June 27.

The same afternoon, he packed some of his belongings and told his family he was 'going with them'. He has not been seen for more than two weeks.
(...)

Mr Justice Sumner made Bobby a ward of court at a private hearing and the Official Solicitor, Laurence Oates, issued a statement in an attempt to find the student.

'He wanted to clear his room and give all his possessions away, but his grandmother would not let him,' it said. 'Since then, he has been with members of the movement. He has telephoned his grandmother on several occasions and she describes him as sounding very strange and most unlike the Bobby she knows.' Bobby lived with Mrs Kelly in Romford and was planning a business studies course at college after completing his GCSEs.
(...)

The Jesus Christians were formed by an Australian, David McKay, and target impressionable teenagers.

Many of those who have lost children to the cult believe they have been brainwashed.
(...)

The cult's literature calls on converts to forsake their jobs, boss, even their family and friends.

'God is now your Boss and he has a new job for you that will not wait,' says a leaflet handed out by members.
[....more...]

Find teenage boy who ran off to join cult, orders judge, Daily Mail (England), July 14, 2000

The leader of the religious cult suspected of kidnapping a 16-year-old Essex boy
has said he will return him in exchange for continued access.

Australia-based David McKay, head of the Jesus Christians, also said he planned
to appeal against a decision to make the youth a ward of court.

His offer appeared to contradict his claim on Saturday that the teenager - who
left home two weeks ago hours after meeting sect members - was not with the
cult.
[...more...]
Cult leader offers to return boy, BBC (England), July 16, 2000

» Jesus Christians' statement about Bobby Kelly


More to follow

The following commentary from the Apologetics Index contains some extracts from the Jesus Christian website which appear in red here.


Its Message

The Group's theological message is based on poor Bible interpretation


[[color=#FF6633]Our message is this: God sent his Son, Jesus, to earth about 2,000 years ago, not only to die for us, but also to tell us how to live our lives. The entire world now measures time from the birth of Jesus Christ. Although his name has become very popular and there are so-called Christian denominations which number their membership in the millions, the fact is that none of these are following him. They have taken his name, ''claimed'' his promises, sung ''Lord, Lord!'' in almost every song they sing, but they stubbornly refuse to obey him. And God is not happy with that.

This same Jesus is going to return to earth very soon... but probably not as soon as you think! Before he returns there will be a false Christ who will be followed and worshipped by the entire world (including these false churches). It is almost certain that you too will worship this false Christ. In fact, it is almost certain that you already worship him. You see, his power over the world will be represented by a ''mark'' without which you will not be able to buy or sell anything. Every time you express the belief that you cannot survive without money, you are voicing the praises of this false Christ, this Antichrist.

Jesus Christ taught that we cannot work for both God and money at the same time (Luke 16:13-15), that we will end up cheating one in order to be loyal to the other. The world today (including all the churches in it) has been more loyal to the god of this world (money) than to the Creator of the universe. Jesus Christ said that the test of loyalty to (i.e. faith in) him is our willingness to give up everything that we own (Luke 14:33), stop working for the food that perishes (John 6:27), take no thought for food or clothing (Matthew 6:19-33), and go into all the world sharing this good news with others (Mark 16:15).

This is not some cunningly devised doctrine based on obscure and isolated proof texts. This is the heart of the teachings of Christ, and it has been thrown out, along with all of the other teachings of Christ. The churches today are full of adultery, lies, rebellion, and idolatry. And it is all justified on the basis of the ''grace of God''. You have been told that you can disobey Christ all you like as long as you attend mass or say a little prayer ''asking Jesus into your heart''. But nowhere in the teachings of Christ does he support such myths.

Your eternal salvation dangles on the slender thread of hope offered by the most obscure proof texts. Ephesians 2:8-9, for example, is the cornerstone of this whole perversion of Gods grace. But you only have to read the next verse (''For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'') to realise that such ''faith without works is dead'' (James 2:26).

The time when you can hide behind your pastor, priest, or denomination is fast disappearing. If you want to be a part of God's family, then you, like us, must forsake all others and cleave only unto Christ and his teachings. He said that when the storms come, only those who have heard his teachings and obey them will survive. Those who heard his teachings and disobeyed them will be like a foolish person who built on sand and was destroyed in the storm. (Matthew 7:24-28)

You will hear many lies about us. If you believe them without hearing our side, God can forgive you for that. But if you reject the voice of God's Spirit of Truth speaking through the message that we deliver, then there is no hope for you at all, not in this life nor in the next.[/color] Our Message

End-time Focus

Among other things, ''Jesus Christians'' believes that in the last seven years before Jesus returns, "America will be destroyed in a sudden military attack by Russia, which will result in communist control of the United Nations.". The group believes a "universal identification system will be enacted, which will probably take several years to become fully functional. ". In a drawing accompaying its online book, Armageddon for Beginners (written by David McKay), this identification system is equated with the universal product bar codes.

On the term ''Cult''

Like other high-demand groups, Jesus Christians attempts to explain the meaning of the term ''cult'' in effort not to be identified as one:

The religious masses are controlled by a universal fear of something called ''cults''. Few dare to openly discuss what the word actually means; but they all fear it. The dictionary says the word ''cult'' has no objective meaning; it's an emotional term used to put down anyone who does not conform with mainstream society. A religious cult could be anything from a group of Satan worshippers to a Baptist Church that worships on Saturdays instead of Sundays. The masses can't tell the difference; but then they don't need to tell the difference. They just run from anyone whom their masters say is a ''cult''.
And where does Jesus Christ fit in with all of this cult paranoia? He did not conform with the religious mainstream of his day. He was hated and killed because he represented a threat to orthodox Judaism. And he was considered a ''cult'' leader. (Acts 24:5; 28:22) So, in order for anyone to follow him, they needed to have the courage to step out from under the safety net of status quo respectability.
Followers of the Lamb were rugged individuals, able to tell the difference between real truth and superficial religious double-talk. The Bible says that when Jesus finished his famous Sermon on the Mount, the crowds were amazed because he spoke "as one having authority" (Matthew 7:28-29) and not like the scribes and Pharisees.
But wait a minute! The scribes and Pharisees were the religious authorities in the eyes of the general public. So there must be more than one measure of religious ''authority''. The real message of this book is that if you want to follow Christ, you must recognise that real authority only comes from speaking the truth in obedience to the ultimate Authority, which is God. The underlying revelation of all Bible prophecy is that authority which comes only through acceptance by the political powers of a godless world is not authority at all in God's eyes.
Summing Up , Armageddon for Beginners

» Information about the term ''cult''

- Contact Info -


Note: The publisher of Apologetics Index considers this group to be a cult, both theologically (from an evangelical, Christian point of view) and sociologically.

In an Update to its online book, ''Armageddon for Beginners,'' the following names and addresses are listed:

Christians, Box A678, Sydney South 1235

In India, it is:
D. McKay, Box 8617, Thiruvanmiyur, Chennai-41

In the United Kingdom it is:
Christians, Box 580, Guildford, GU1 1GR


The groups also goes by the name ''Followers of the Lamb'' and advertises comics under the name ''Godstuff Comix.''

- News - Current -


» Jesus Christians News Tracker News about religious cults, sects, alternative religions and related issues.


- News Archive -


» Database of archived news items
(Includes items added between Oct. 25, 1999 and Jan. 31, 2002. See about this database)

Newer items:
» Jesus Christians News Tracker News about religious cults, sects, alternative religions and related issues.


Older Item:
(Jul 16, 1999) Mother slates police for not preventing her son going off with religious cult


- Sites -



Jesus Christians Home Page Secondary official web site. A popup window at this site includes the



''Warning'':


The material on this site is not for the fearful. As you read through what we are saying, you will be spiritually assaulted with fears about things that do NOT appear in what you are reading. Whatever your own worst thoughts are will be transferred to us, and you will IMAGINE that we are the ones doing what you would secretly like to do. Please proceed in FAITH, and with much prayer and confidence that the TRUTH will set people free... even if it proves to be a bit uncomfortable along the way


Zeuszor, please post this link on the AR forum [www.apologeticsindex.org]

Thanks for the update on the JK show. They also have a forum at the link you posted which requires registration.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2007 07:25PM by matilda.

Dear Forum,

I am mindful of Cultmalleous's observation that "I know of no-one who ever left the JC's during a time of external persecution", however I would still see "our" activities (this forum and some other venues) as somehow successful if we were able to help circumvent David acquiring new souls to feed off......while I want to do what's possible for those who are having their very lives consumed by this parasite in order to sate his vanities.....I'd still put a higher priority on preventing David accessing new "disciples".....

....most of the people who I can recall "getting out" ('81 - '85) escaped because, for whatever reason, they fell to the bottom of the "pecking order" that David uses to make individuals perpetually nervous about their life membership in the "Kingdom of Heaven" and thus feeling forever obliged to constantly "prove themselves" in his eyes (...Yesterdays faith is not good enough for today!.....Your dissatisfaction with what's going on (here in the JesusChristians) is due to YOU not keeping your eyes on "Jesus"/failing to be sufficiently "prayerful"/trying to put your own wishes in the way of "Gods will"/...and countless other variations on the selfish circular reasoning that plays on purposely manufactured psychological insecurities, etc etc......

...when you're the butt of every offensive act of belittlement that David can find the time for (while at the same time, he is "rubbing your nose in it" by also requiring that you thank him for the "love" he is showing you through the Godly correction he is delivering)....a lot (no not everyone...but a lot!) of people find it within themselves to get out....!


If we are "nice" to David, somehow he will then eventually mistakenly permit uncensored communication with the "inmates" in the JC's???....hmmm...I'm a little doubtful!!


I agree with Zeusor that we should ratchet up whatever pressure we are able to apply.....at the moment we simply "respond" to Davids connivances.....(He attempts to hijack "movements" such as Refugees, Organ Donations, the Quakers in order to buy a little more legitimacy that he may better defraud more people into "discipleship"....We belatedly warn the parties involved).....off this Forum among and quietly ourselves I still think we should look at legal mechanisms..(...independantly audited accounts and mandatory disclosures of expenditure....third party access to new members on the part of Government welfare bodies....etc.) It'd be nice to alternatively force him to "parry" us....

I will eventually be able to personally meet up with some of the staff of most of the organizations you have nominated Matilda (thank you for posting them publicly), however to date my phone and internet communication with them has been "disappointing" to say the least......David is a minor spiritual charlatan in a BIG field....I agree with Private Eyes, that we will likely only find "resolution" of the issues among ourselves and in what we personally set out to do......

As far as I can see.....there will only ever be dishonest communication from David....he's got away with this for years.....just lie the little bit more loudly, cry "wolf" that much more strenuously, and you'll get what you want.....he isn't going to be simply "reasoned" into altering his behaviour....and if it ever looks likely that any of us are able to "reason" with members of the JesusChristians, "access" will be promptly cut!....POWER!...power over the lives of others (however you manage it) is the only "language" David McKay understands....



.......the police knock down his front door early one morning with a sledge hammer, issue a gasping Cherry with the warrant and then lead David away into custody......

OR

.... media driven Dave will just become increasingly driven to "stunt after stunt" until he seriously injures someone....after which he will "disappear" ever so briefly in the waters he will deliberately "muddy" before the snout resurfaces for "oxygen" some where else down stream....



(......certainly "no Dave" wouldn't be the end of the Jesuschristians.....the Children of God have blindly hobbled on without David Berg, so the JC's too will "faithfully" limp on in ignominy.....but I do think it would be the end of the worst of the "excesses"....)

Matilda, I have a lot of respect for all the agencies you mentioned and I assist many from time to time, with information and/or financial assistance. However, I stand by my comments. In fact it is my contact with a lot of them that makes me even more confident to stand by my comments.

The organisations mentioned understand cults and so they are aware that the Jesus Christians are a cult. They can of course speak about the dynamics of cults. They are aware of the McKays from what they have read, etc and some have had personal contact. But that is different to the more intimate knowledge that we are talking about.

The links posted support what I am saying. They are largely a collection of newspaper reports, extracts from the Jesus Christians website, etc.
However, even these did not have a lot of material Zeusor and others have brought to light.

There are a whole range of issues and questions and I have raised many of them, that require more clarity.

Cunter cult agencies are dealing with hundreds of cults. They are normally poorly resourced and usually staffed by volunteers with perhaps one or two paid workers at best. Unfortunately, they do not have the capacity to carry out the type of indepth research that is required to effectively address Dave McKay.

This is what has led people like myself, to co-operate with others to assist them and the authorities to gain a better understanding of the Jesus Christians. I would certainly encourage anyone with information to get onboard.

Zeuszor, please post this link on the AR forum [www.apologeticsindex.org]


No need. Anton Hein knows all about the JCs. He was a charter member there at AR-Talk. Where do you think he got the data for HIS website? People like me, that's where.

Obviously you do not understand. People like RR and Hein (the moderator at apologeticsindex) don't exactly have a great reputation in the cult-ed world. I have heard RR referred to as "a creep." No offense, RR.

[www.religiousfreedomwatch.org]

[www.sdsheriff.net]

[meganslaw.ca.gov]

These people have great resources that are freely available to the public via the internet, but you must understand that they are just the tip of the iceberg.

The majority of the work is done underground (so to speak) by people you have never heard of, and who want to keep it that way.

The serious countercult heavies are people that you have probably never heard of. David Clark, Carol Giambalvo, Michael Langone. None of those folks had heard of the JCs before I came along.

And if Hasaan knows more about the McKay family and the JC organization than I do, I'll buy him a beer.

RR and Hein are not exactly well-respected personalities in the field. They're just the ones you've heard of.

A LITTLE LATER

Actually, I am going to try and put together a seminar for next year's ICSA conference in Pennsylvania.

[www.icsahome.com]

Anybody else want to get in on this?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2007 02:03AM by zeuszor.

ASININE JC-RELATED QUOTE OF THE DAY

[welikejesus.com]

Here is an amazing quote from Brian Birmingham about Rick Ross, which actually appears on the RR forum itself. (Better watch it, Brian, or YOU will be banned over there! Ha!):

Quote:
People like Rick Ross and Hein (the moderator at apologeticsindex) don't exactly have a great reputation in the cult-ed world. I have heard RR referred to as "a creep." No offense, RR.

The serious countercult heavies are people that you have probably never heard of.

RR and Hein are not exactly well-respected personalities in the field. They're just the ones you've heard of.

Why would RR ban me for saying that? That is my opinion, I am entitled to it, and I have done my homework. RR does a great service to the public by providing this space for us and all, but he is not my "leader" and it's nothing personal; I only said that RR's reputation in some quarters is not a good one. So what?

This reveals a lot about your mentality. The way you group and categorize people, not recognizing people as individuals. That's is the difference between RR's forum and your little playpen over there David. I can say pretty much whatever I want over here as long as I abide by the rules that I registered for this forum under. That's why I am not banned. It's called free speech.

A LITTLE LATER

Breaking news...

[welikejesus.com]

JCs banned from Quaker Yearly Meeting



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2007 01:48PM by zeuszor.

Here are the forum rules. As long as one stays within these parameters, one can say whatever one likes here. Nothing in here about "Never say anything critical of RR." What are the rules at YOUR "forum," David?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2007 01:59PM by zeuszor.

David is really losing it. What is it to him and his followers if they are in the Quaker Yearly Meeting or not? Why is it such a big deal? They are a law unto themselves anyway!

"I can appreciate that most Friends would find it hard to believe that anyone would make up such stuff if there were not some evidence for them saying it."

[welikejesus.com]

That's right. No Friends would make stuff up. That's why this is happening, David. Why do you care about it so much when you have your own cult to surround yourself with?

Quakers are tolerant, but they are not stupid! You've picked the wrong mark here! So you thought there was a meeting where people could speak what they thought, and that suited you and you had an audience? You can say your stuff and people will listen? That is the antithesis of Quaker values, sorry.

There is a bit more to being a Quaker than that, and you yourself admit that you went because you thought you had an audience. WRONG! Quakers listen to the tiny, ego-less breath of the spirit, not your bullshit!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2007 04:52PM by Blackhat.

And yes, it does mean that your Kenya junket is over. No more Quaker money. Back to selling books and finding young people to give you their inheritances, eh?