In poor countries like India Dave engaged in entrapment tactics to get potentials he did not like to leave the group. He would do this by leaving money out in plain sight, baiting them to take it. If they did, he had his excuse; while it is permissable for Dave to engage in welfare fraud, commanding others to do the same.

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apostate
Evidence of David McKay's CONTROL of group members from his own mouth:

[b:0db67751e3][i:0db67751e3]This is not a holiday camp. It is an army, and we're involved in a war. There will be casualties. There will be costs. And for those who survive, there will be victories. But if anyone wants to be a part of this army, then they need to get it clear that they must obey orders.[/i:0db67751e3][/b:0db67751e3]
SOURCE: [jesuschristians.net] (6 jan 2007)

And like an army, it is not a democratic community. Members "must" obey orders or suffer the consequences. Ash "must" take a stranger to his parents house. Joe "must" fight against his own parents. They all "must" meet distributing quota's, both numerically and financially. It is the direct command of the cult leader.

The RANTER IS RIGHT . It is not a holiday kamp.It is a puny dictatorship. I was 1 of the miserable casualteis who lived through endless ranting en I rebelled and survived and de victory was freedom

More evidence of David Mckay's control and the obedience he DEMANDS from followers. They comply because he teaches that his authority and God's are one and the same.

[i:101eb4fcf0]I am the captain of this ship. I know where we are going, because I am getting my orders from God....If he has appointed me to lead this work, then he will expect others to work in submission to me...God has at this time and in this corner of the world, anointed me as his apostle....and if I catch you rebelling, I will wield the rod of correction in obedience to God, since it is really God that you are rebelling against when you do that...[/i:101eb4fcf0]

SOURCE: [jesuschristians.net] (7 Jan 2007)

Dear Muppet,

You remark that apostate's point should be brought to the attention of the court deliberating the matter of the case concerning the Johnsons. How does one contact the court?

Besides the defence of provokation and the importance of establishing a case history (the Johnsons I suspect have no previous history of assault occasioning bodily harm" where David has a long established pattern over many years of deceit, blackmail (and nowadays extortion),...

...the Jesus Christians possibly fail to meet the criteria for admissability of testimony as evidence in court (...they have no income or property and their "livelyhood" is subject to the whim of David MacKay, hence they are not in a position to neutrally and objectively comment on the matters before the court).....David no doubt hopes to employ Joe as witness against his parents....and Joe is probably being prepared for this role as we write......

Some confusion here, Malcolm.
Matilda, can you help with this?

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matilda

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apostate
David McKay teaches children to dishonor their parents. He sows division in families by lying to children that their parents do not really love them. He works to blind children to the sacrifices parents have made to help children meet their goals before Dave came along. His latest recruit Joseph is a classic example of such a tactic. Dave teaches Joseph that his parents are selfish while ignoring the sacrifices they must have made in their own lives to provide excellent education to him. Not a cheap thing in USA. Joseph now suppresses such knowledge in order to fit into the cult. Now Joseph sides with a cult who through manipulation and deceit brought about the anger of Joe's family. But that is how David and his followers work... they anger people by lies and manipulation and then use the response that generates to make themselves appear righteous.

David McKay dishonors his own parents and family by publicly slandering them on his website.

Jesus called people like David McKay a Pharisee practicing the religious scam "Corban".

Excellent point Apostate, and one that needs to be heard by judges involved in the forthcoming trial involving the JC´s and Joe´s family. Ex members of the JC´s have an insight into this group that others do not share. Dave will twist these words on his site and claim the RR posters are trying to justify violence, which is unbtrue. If justice is to be served, the judges need to know the mitigating factors.

Yes, Matilda. Dave is already hard at work twisting these words. He now has a thread on his forum entitled "Ex-members to defend murder attempt". This is classic beat up by Dave. Even his wording in the thread title is designed to inflame and exaggerate and smear reputations once again. That is why he reverses the usual way of expressing such a charge to have the word "murder" before "attempt". It is tabloid journalistic tactics because we read from left to right, and as a result our mind gets stuck on "ex members to defend murder", before the addendum of "attempt" is seen.

His little unrecognised illegal kangaroo court invents that charge and then tries to convince all of us that it was attempted murder. The family have not been charged with attempted murder. [b:f95ce4bf2b]Nobody here is trying to justify attempted murder[/b:f95ce4bf2b]. That is something that Dave does on his forum's "killers for Christ" thread. Strange how he can envisage a scenario where he can actually kill out of "love" and see nothing wrong with it, and yet if a family perceives a strong enough threat to their unity from his group they are wrong to beat someone up out of their love for one of their own. Hypocrite that he is.

If the real court does a different charge, say violence occasioning grevious bodily harm, they of course will be seen as corrupt because his illegal kangaroo court has already invented the charge of attempted murder.

This is what I have actually said regarding the violence surrounding Joes recruitment to the group:

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The events surrounding Joseph's recruitment into the Jesus Christians is definately understandable, [b:f95ce4bf2b]not justfiable[/b:f95ce4bf2b], but understandable; and worthy of consideration by a judge as Dave is repeating the same manipulative callous control with Ash's parents.

I have heard that in some states of America a burglar can be shot by a house owner under property protection laws, I think some thought regarding a deceptive manipulative cult coming to your door to steal away your children can be seen in a similar light... so [b:f95ce4bf2b]in some ways[/b:f95ce4bf2b] it [b:f95ce4bf2b]could[/b:f95ce4bf2b] be considered justifiable self defence.

Certainly not as solid as the lie Dave is trying to get off the ground on his forum. It is true that some states of the USA have such a law in place, and if the family does perceive a real threat happening to them it could be considered to be an act of self defence; but as I am not a lawyer that is obviously a matter for the courts to decide.

I am sure the court will take into account the fact that Jarred and Sheila's son had already been missing for some time before finally turning up with two strangers from a cult in tow. It is another case of David handling things badly or just plain disrepectfully and provoking the reaction he got. The group has run roughshod over the top of this family, ignoring their concerns. Joseph, due to Dave's influence, accuses his father and mother of selfishness while denying that his father worked three jobs to put him through school, and his mother put her career on hold as well. Hardly the actions of selfish people. No, Dave is the selfish one here, commanding and demanding that his followers treat their parents like strangers, utilising emotional blackmail on them until they give in to his demands. If they do not they do not get to see their kids again. He does it with all the parents he has managed to pry their young children away from.

Joe was only 16 when his group started in on him. There is something seriously wrong with that. He did not have parental consent to do so, as a result he did it by stealth and deception. That is two years this family have had Dave in their lives working against them and their family unity and life goals.

Yep David McKay is a pharisee practicing the religious scam "corban", by teaching kids to dishonour their parents.

Malcolm

Check your PM for fowarded email address.

Apostate
You have spelt it out clearly. Dave's cpmments regarding an[i:1bb62700b8] attempted murder [/i:1bb62700b8]charge are calculated to influence the outcome. There is no charge of attempted murder and his attempts to suggest otherwise are typical. Dave just gets everything wrong!

Link here to an article posted on this site [www.culteducation.com]

Extract
Loss of a Fortunate Son
Eighteen-year-old Joseph Johnson was an academic star and basketball standout at a Southland high school, seemingly headed for college — before he joined a controversial religious sect you may have already encountered in the supermarket parking lot.

Los Angeles Independent/December 28, 2006
By Anna Scott

For Sheila Johnson, April 25th began like any other day — with a few exceptions.

She noticed that her son, Joseph, hugged her before leaving the house that morning, an unusual gesture for the 18-year old. And when he backed the car out of the driveway minutes later, Joseph waved good-bye to his parents, also unusual.

At the time, Sheila didn’t think much of it. But when Joseph returned home 10 days later, much had changed.

Things would continue to change for the Johnson family in the days following Joseph’s return, starting with a violent, early-morning confrontation, which led to Sheila becoming a defendant in an unusual “trial” that has brought a new wave of scrutiny to a controversial, religious group called the Jesus Christians. It is a group some believe is a cult, but that Joseph regards as his new family.

By all outward appearances, Joseph Johnson seemed like the last teenager who would be contemplating a major life change. A handsome African-American boy with a wide smile and the lean build of an athlete, Joseph was a popular, straight-A student at his Gardena high school, where he was also a star point guard on the basketball team.

His basketball coach, Dwan Hurt, said that by Joseph’s senior year, prestigious college scholarship offers poured in and Joseph had expressed interest in becoming a doctor.

Dear Muppet,

The Jesus Christians are drifting into criminality where they "collude" (jointly fabricate history) and so "conspire to pervert the course of justice"....

(Aka: the grossly exaggerated "damages" they claim to have suffered as already pointed out by Matilda and Apostate).

It is my understanding that testimony from members of organized crime syndicates is subject to some scrutiny as it is demonstratably "biased"...(They materially benefit from the diversions from the truth they make)

The Jesus Christians have as much propensity to bias. Their testimonys should be subject to similar caution . They are not "uninterested, independant and neutral observers" in any sense of the word....

The likely tone of their testimony in court will be something emotionally akin to;

"We just went to share the joy and sweetness of the gospel with Joes' family, when for no reason Mr Johnson suddenly leapt from his seat, with glaring eyes and froth foaming from his mouth, yelling gibberish and gesticulating wildly....."

....yeah, yeah...I bet that was the case!!

Hi Malcolm,

That is an interesting viewpoint and not one I feel qualified to comment on, not being well versed in the area of legal precedence.

It would be interesting to know what experiences you had in the group, which demonstrate this 'bias' or a tendency to 'fabricate history'?

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apostate
More evidence of David Mckay's control and the obedience he DEMANDS from followers. They comply because he teaches that his authority and God's are one and the same.

[i:d7c27250b7]I am the captain of this ship. I know where we are going, because I am getting my orders from God....If he has appointed me to lead this work, then he will expect others to work in submission to me...God has at this time and in this corner of the world, anointed me as his apostle....and if I catch you rebelling, I will wield the rod of correction in obedience to God, since it is really God that you are rebelling against when you do that...[/i:d7c27250b7]

SOURCE: [jesuschristians.net] (7 Jan 2007)

Thank you, Apostate, for reminding us of those fine words! ' I am the captain of this ship' It has a certain ring to it. Interesting that he voiced his intention to ' wield his rod of correction' Not wishing to trivialise this, but does anyone else here agree that it sounds like a line from the Pirates of the Caribbean? Perhaps he had just been watching it! The words of other great seafarers spring to mind and may be the best form of response.
As Norrington (or was it Mullroy?) said to the Captain
'I don't see your ship. Captain!'