Thanks to all those Quakers who have taken this stance. It is not easy to do this, and as someone who is not a registered Quaker, I acknowledge the hard decisions you have made. Putting your names to motions (which I have not done, not being a Quaker) is a credit to you all. I know you will have searched long and hard about this, and that there will be leanings and urgings upon you from David and his crew.

Hold fast the light! Let no man come here to preach his own ego agenda! Let no man caretake monies for just causes who himself is not just!

Quakers should be congratulated on their moves to distance themselves from Dave McKay and the Jesus Christians.

The reputation of the Quakers will continue to be tarnished as long as this group is associated with the Quakers. As many have said, the Quakers are being used as a way to gain legitimacy, to use as a front social project (Kenya) and gain funds. McKay has talked for years about forsaking all, but he is allegedly only able to achieve this by acting as a parasite wherever he finds a willing host. Whether it's Government benefits, another Church, inheritances or profits from book sales sold by his cult members.

Dave's claims that "nothing strong" have been found despite months of investigation are false. He simply is not aware what has been discovered as we have chosen not to tell him, but pass the information to approriate bodies.

In regards to ex members there have already been many contributions. We have simply made an appeal for further support and information from
ex members that may not already had input, in order to further substantiate what we have already learnt.

We have demonstrated (teased if you like) on numerous occasions that we have access to a whole range of information, but that we are not going to be tricked into releasing it in full, simply to prove a point to Dave. Also to do so may prejudice further inquiries or actions that may result as a consequence to that information being released.

In the meanwhile, I will reiterate something I have said previously and that is that no one could do more damage to Dave's cause then Dave himself. Quakers, I invite you to read his website and decide whether you think this person is a cult leader or not. Are threads like, dysfunctional families the way a normal Christian group would chose to operate? Read his teachings and methods of operation (such as whippings) yourself and decide whether these are compatible with Quakers beliefs. If you decide they are not. Ask yourself. Why then is this person so keen too remain with the Quakers? What does he stand to lose?

THIS THING SAYS THAT DM AND HIS PEOPLE WERE PAID $700 FROM THE JK PEOPLE FOR EXPENSES IN THE UK. WHAT A HYPOCRITE. DAVID SURE DOES LOVE MONEY.

JESUS CHRISTIANS DECEMBER NEWSLETTER

THE JEREMY KYLE SHOW


Early in the month, Dave and Cherry and Roland and Susan participated
in the taping of an episode of "The Jeremy Kyle Show" in Manchester.
Actually, there are two hour-long episodes, spread over two days:
Monday and Tuesday, December 10 and 11, from 9:25am on ITV 1 in the U.
K. Details of the filming and what to expect when you watch the show
can be found here:


[www.jesus-teachings.com]


If you wish to watch the show online, you can do so here (but be
warned, it does not work with Mac computers!):


[www.itv.com]


QUAKERS


Problems persist with the Australian Quakers, who have now banned
three Jesus Christians who are regular attenders, from going to the
Yearly Meeting in Melbourne, in January. They were told that the ban
had nothing to do with the Jesus Christians themselves (Ross, Ash,
and Barry) but rather with disruptive behaviour which may be
displayed by undisciplined Quakers at the Yearly Meeting if they know
that three Jesus Christians have been allowed to attend!


For information on David Lowe, the Quaker private investigator who
posts as "Private Eyes" on the Rick Ross forum, and who was
responsible for the Jeremy Kyle show's interest in us in the first
place, go to this thread from our forum:


[welikejesus.com]


We have given a detailed account on the Quaker forum of what we have
been able to glean so far from the meeting on Saturday (Dec. 1) that
banned Ross, Ash, and Barry. However, it appears on a section of
that forum which is not available to the general public. Because the
Quakers have been so stubborn about not dealing with the serious
problems that are happening in New South Wales, we have decided to
become more outspoken OUTSIDE Quaker circles (which are becoming so
narrow now as to be excluding us anyway.


Here is the link to what we have written on the Quaker forum:


[welikejesus.com]




TREATS FROM THE U.K.


Dave and Cherry arrived in Kenya with a couple of suitcases full of
chocolates, cheese, and tins of spam for our team there. The spam
and cheese were purchased with a $700 "meal allowance" that was given
to Rols, Sue, Dave, and Cherry, by the producers of the Jeremy Kyle
Show over the two days that we were in Manchester for the filming.
The chocolates were found in supermarket bins around London during
the time when Dave and Cherry were visiting in London. We've had a
couple of great "pizza feasts" so far with the spam and cheese, and
several people have been spotted with chocolate showing on their lips!



SURVIVAL AND RECYCLING EXPERIMENTS


Rob, Joe and Fran did a 'faith inreach' for three days in the forest.
They slept in a bat cave on bedding made from long dried grass which
they found at a nearby hill. They had plenty of time to experiment
with learning to listen to God and learning to trust his leadings.



The bats would fly over them each night and served as natural
mosquito repellents! The peaceful stillness of the forest encouraged
reflection about God's creation. They ate berries which they found
on nearby trees and drank water from a nearby waterhole.


Following on from this, members have taken a greater interest in
visits to the nearby rain forest, where we have experimented more
with survival skills, including making fire by rubbing sticks
together, and discovering new sources of food.


Back at the volunteer center, we have started grinding up the entire
trunk of old banana trees for food, based on information we received
from Boop, who says that Indians always eat the trees as well as the
bananas themselves. Also, we've been eating the leaves of sweet
potato plants, which are quite tasty. (After we have stripped the
leaves and dug up the roots, our rabbits enjoy what is left of the
vines, so that nothing is wasted.) We have even had some traps set
for the moles that are invading the sweet potatoes, and if we catch
any, we have been told that older Kenyans still eat moles, since they
are really quite clean vegetarians themselves.


We have just started sweeping up truck loads of chewed up sugar cane
fibre, which litters tracks and roads everywhere in the interior. We
take these back to our garden and mix them in with the hard red clay
to act both as compost and mulch. We have accumulated a lot of cow
dung as well, as we have scoured the streets with a beautification
project which we hope will reap divdends on our plot of land as well.



Within the village markets in particular, we are now concentrating on
cleaning up the thousands of old plastic bags that litter the area.


'BIBLE PROPHECY DAY'


The schools have finished for the year, and so we have had several in-
reach activities. One of these was a "Bible prophecy day", during
which we each shared our own personal feelings about Bible prophecy,
and what relevance it has for us today.


A FLOOD OF VOLUNTEERS


A mix of about 20 international and Kenyan volunteers worked for
three weeks in the local area, helping with repairs to a road that
had become overgrown and impassable. They were accommodated only
metres away from our community centre, and so we shared several
fellowship nights over the few weeks that they were here. Towards
the end of their stay, several of the volunteers expressed an
interest in staying on a bit longer to work with us. Several others
plan to return over the next few months, after they have spent a
little more time touring Kenya.


COMPUTER CLASSES


With school out, we were able to continue the computer classes that
we experimented with earlier in the year. We have basic classes for
those who have not previously attended, and advanced classes for
those who have.


BASKETBALL


Joe continues to teach basketball at two local schools with the help
of other volunteers. On Saturday we had our first free-throw
shooting competition as a way of generating interest for the game in
the local community. The day was a great success, with a tiny 8-year-
old boy managing to take out the third place against 37 other
competitors, shooting an astounding 20 baskets out of 40 attempts.


We have also started to work on levelling out one of the dirt
basketball courts which had become overgrown with grass. We hope to
have competitive games between some schools in January.


SPEED HUMPS


Extreme speed humps are strewn along the paved road between here and
Kisumu, and they can cause serious damage to vehicles when hit at
speed. The humps are not easily seen, especially at night, and are
hated by local drivers. So we got a big bucket of pain and painted
stripes on some of them to make them visible from hundreds of metres
down the road.


Many of the truck and matatu (passenger van) drivers complimented us
when they passed by as we were painting. We also received support
from the provincial minister for roads and transport.


RABBITS and CHICKENS


One of our female rabbits has given birth to a litter of 7 baby
rabbits... our first litter. The other female is due to give birth
any day now, so we should soon have hutches full of thriving bunnies.



In addition to the rabbits, we now have a couple of chickens sharing
the enclosure. We hope the chickens will also reproduce eventually.


OUR WEB SITE


Please visit our web site and check out some of the articles, books,
music, and news of various projects that appear there.


[www.jesus-teachings.com]

Haven't posted for a while, but I read the forum dilligently. The Kyle Show should be interesting and I don't understand why McKay agreed to do it other than that he always craves publicity and rushes to it wherever he can get it. Apparently he pocketed $700 to buy chocolates and spam. Very nutritious, Dave, and goes well with the berries your people are languishing on while those bats fly overhead. Always some new torture for your followers....you're so inventive of fresh misery. Good for the people who got out...and we have to understand it takes time to process having been so nedlessly fooled.

The young woman, Annette, is now married and enjoying a happy, normal family life, I understand from Zeuszor. Good for her. Why does Dave still defame her mother in such a vicious way? She must have gotten under his skin.

Does anyone know what relationship Dave has with his own mother? It seems he hates mothers! Is it because he can never overcome mothers and that mothers will always be one of the biggest obstacles for Dave? Eventually sons and daughters see the light and realize that their mother's love is genuine and permanent. Joe and Ash, I hope you'll realize soon, and all you other young deciples will do the same and leave Dave's "batcave."

Zeuszor, Matilda, Private Eye, Malcolm and all the other regular contributors, we thank you. Dogmother

David says in reference to the Quaker business, speaking to David Lowe:

"David, even now Cherry and I would be happy to smoke the peace pipe with you. But if you want to push this to the ultimate, then I think you had better ask Brian to oil up his guns and come looking for us, because the way you are going about this at the moment, you are not going to be happy or feel safe until I am dead... and then Cherry after me, and the other JCs after Cherry.

That's the way war is, David. Nobody wins... we end up dead, and you end up looking like a hypocrite. How about if we just agree to disagree, and if we ask other Friends to do the same (retracting the ban and the motion condemning the JCs)?"

[welikejesus.com]

This is so like a perpetrator of Domestic Violence, the "one on one" cultic relationship. They threaten suicide when the victim tries to leave.

A suicide threat is another act of violence in an effort to reclaim control and power over the victim.

And suicide threat is the only inference that can be taken from what David has written. Either that or a lunatic idea that because someone wants the Jesus Christians out of the Quakers, that means they are going to have them killed. Which is clearly absurd.

So now the Quakers have to decide whether suicide threats are compatible with Quaker beliefs. I think not.

More allusions to death and violence. More than allusions, these are overt threats. Reminds me of the time when David wrote,

[welikejesus.com]

"As we really do get closer to God, and as that of God begins to shine forth from us, there is going to be a different sort of a light that comes, which may actually be symbolised by those saints who were burned at the stake for their faith in days gone by.

It's coming, Friends, and we need to see it as an inseparable part of our decision to follow Christ. In the end, he said that he would cause divisions between us and everyone else who is in opposition to him. In these dark days, that is going to include almost everyone. But we can rejoice, "for so persecuted the prophets which were before you," and we can rejoice because "great is our reward in heaven." Our rejoicing in itself is going to anger them further, but it will all hasten the day of His returning. Burn, brothers, burn!"

What's he going to pull next, a group immolation or public crucifixion? Do a search of the word "Waco" at his domain and you'll find all kids of references to Waco/the Davidian standoff.

Nobody is talking about guns except for David. Nobody wants anybody to die over this. That is all in David's sick imagination.

What he just said is the equivalent of some hostage-taker putting the gun to his captive's head and yelling, "Nobody make and sudden moves or I shoot!"

Here's another one, another scary quote where DM is talking crazy:

...It seems that the RR hate-mongers are having the same effect on us that they had on the people in Waco... they just make us stick closer together, because we all know that they'll devour any one of us if they can get away with it.

[www.welikejesus.com]


These threats are all over the place if you look carefully. Am I the only one who sees this? It's like he's yelling, "Nobody move or I'll shoot!"



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2007 01:10PM by zeuszor.

Quote
Blackhat
David says in reference to the Quaker business, speaking to David Lowe:

"David, even now Cherry and I would be happy to smoke the peace pipe with you. But if you want to push this to the ultimate, then I think you had better ask Brian to oil up his guns and come looking for us, because the way you are going about this at the moment, you are not going to be happy or feel safe until I am dead... and then Cherry after me, and the other JCs after Cherry.

That's the way war is, David. Nobody wins... we end up dead, and you end up looking like a hypocrite. How about if we just agree to disagree, and if we ask other Friends to do the same (retracting the ban and the motion condemning the JCs)?"

[welikejesus.com]

This is so like a perpetrator of Domestic Violence, the "one on one" cultic relationship. They threaten suicide when the victim tries to leave.

A suicide threat is another act of violence in an effort to reclaim control and power over the victim.

And suicide threat is the only inference that can be taken from what David has written. Either that or a lunatic idea that because someone wants the Jesus Christians out of the Quakers, that means they are going to have them killed. Which is clearly absurd.

So now the Quakers have to decide whether suicide threats are compatible with Quaker beliefs. I think not.

The good folks at AR-Talk have been alerted to a threat of imminent self-destructive violence coming from DM and/or his group.
I stated that the threat level was high and that this has basically become a "red alert" situation. Please, we should all be praying for a peaceful conclusion to this situation. What I just did was like calling "cult 911." This is going to get a lot of people's attention.

Nobody wants anybody to get hurt, David.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2007 03:17PM by zeuszor.

Question to David McKay:

Why do continue so vehemently champion your cause against the Quakers? What do you want? To attend meetings in silence with people who you know are so against what you preach and represent?

Do you think that you can have fellowship with people who are disquietened by your activities? How can you listen to God in an such an assembly?

What would it be like to continue to attend meetings with people who are clearly finding your presence and what you represent intolerable?

What is it about the Quakers that you find a need to go on this war of defence? They are saying that your teachings are incompatible with theirs. That should be the end of it. Is that so wrong?

Are you incapable of having quiet times with God without the Quakers?

Why so desparate, David? Why suicide threats? Is the Quaker money your only lifeline?

Dear Blackhat,

We've all "been there and done that" with David and his histrionic personality disorder......He needs "persecution" in order to "prove" himself (to himself)...hence it is invented where ever it is required.....I like your observation that David's "warnings" of the "threats" and "dangers" he "bravely" faces in the "name of God" are indeed no more than (rather transparent) manipulative attempts to make his critics feel somehow "guilty" for daring to stand up to him.....

Underneath the pathetic charade we witness externally, I still think that David is intelligent enough to dimly realize what he is doing, however I am less certain if he is actually pyschologically objective enough of himself these days, to be fully cogent of the neurotic self-importance, he is constantly reinforcing with his child like tantrums and infantile threats......

(One might say that having spent the last 30 years alternatively enticing the gullible and vulnerable to become his disciples and then discarding whoever ultimately displayed the maturity to question the Kingdom of Mackay, with an alternate opinion of Davids' abilities, has tended to aggravate the problem......)

The feigned injuries of unwarranted mistreatment on the part of the Quakers are truly pitiful (....the Quakers of all people....the gentle and peaceful Quakers are "oppressing" him)....yet again an utterly unambiguous endeavour at attention seeking....

However we need to start anticipating David here....he realizes that the Quaker fling is in its last death throws.....(hence he is just trying now to make the most out of it that he can now....then cut his losses and leave with his "dignity" intact)....where to next? We need to be circumventing him aforetime! ...the world is a much "smaller" place now......

"Kenya" of course, is the whole "India" episode revisited.....David ultimately pulled the JC's out of India (despite the admirable things a number of former members were doing there) because he was eventually unable to attract the media attention he really wanted out of it all (...."It matters not what you do, only whether or not you can manage to arrange for someone to see you doing it".....the Gospels according to David McKay)...They (the Indians) no longer "deserve us" was the official line of course!

He will remain in the US, Australia and England as he can generate cash inflow there.....if Quaker funding dries up, Kenya may well become a "cash outflow" liability for him.....if he can't get "publicity" in some shape or form...then he'll ultimately inform the JC's that its time they all "democratically" chose to leave Africa for a while....

(South America is next?).....lets keep the appropriate authorities, local churches and social movements (ripe for the "plucking" in Davids eyes) advised in advance......

Dogmother, it is interesting that you should raise this question after I commented on David's alleged ability to act as a parasite on a willing host.

Quote:

"The Kyle Show should be interesting and I don't understand why McKay agreed to do it other than that he always craves publicity and rushes to it wherever he can get it. Apparently he pocketed $700 to buy chocolates (sic) and spam. "

The Jeremy Kyle Show is just another demonstration of what I was talking about.

The other obvious benefit (apart from cheese and spam), is that it appears that it gained him a flight to the UK where he could meet up with his UK cult members. It also appears that he extended the return flight to enable him to visit Kenya. Ironic in a way that Jeremy Kyle ends up helping Dave.

It has also been suggested that Kidney Donations are another way opportunities for flights and expenses to become available to both members and their carers, apart from the publicity they generate. Maybe some people are just overly suspicious?

Malcolm, thank you for your input as usual. Some contributors have contacted me off the board for my comments on the latest situation. I have commented that I believe Dave is just being a drama Queen. It is strategy and nothing more. I think your post supports that view.

His continual reference to me being a Quaker, etc is nonsense. Blackhat is apparently not me now, but has morphed into my wife. But then I've also been Nick Eyles, and Adrian van Leen. It's hard to keep track. It's bizarre that he doesn't protect himself by adding, allegedly or I believe or I think. No, he state it as fact. David Lowe is Private Eyes.

Of course, if the Quakers actually did hire a Private Investigator, whether he is called David Lowe or Fred Jones, they would be perfectly within their rights to protect their interests. To me it seems like a perfectly good idea to want to get to the bottom of many of the allegations that have been raised about Dave McKay and followers of his bizarre cult.

But it would also seem strange to me that the person being investigated would openly slander the person who is alleged to be conducting the investigation and actually state as fact, that I am that person. As I've said previously, I believe that it is up to the Quakers to deal with that issue.
If I were the Quaker in question, I would certainly demand they take the appropriate action.

The other thing I find interesting is, that if Dave has nothing to fear from an investigation, why is he so opposed to one? He keeps saying there's nothing of substance to the allegations made about him over the years, yet he appears to be in absolute melt down over it.

This is a person who for years has put out publications critical of most established Churches and now when he finds he is the one that is being criticised responds with cries of persecution.

I expect to hear more of that old line, about being worse than a serial murder or rapist. Very much old school PR.

The modern way is to say, no we don't to such and such, but what we do, do is...(state all the positive things you do. No there is not any truth in that, what is true, is that we do this...(state all the positives). Dave really should to lose that worse than a serial murder or rapist line, it's becoming worn out and people know the strategy behind it. In fact, if one of your followers says, "we don't eat babies", (wasn't that one suggested to Bobby Kelly?) we will probably guess where that came from as well.