Damaged,
The RESPONSIBILITY for how you are perceived by others is yours. I imagine that making others RESPONSIBLE for how you are PERCEIVED is unhealthy.
Just my opinion.
I imagine that if you are TRUTHFUL and just ''be who you are'' then the reaction that others have to you is their right...
I have a right to my opinion. I have a right to express it. Everyone does. If you are ''perceived'' in a way that you do not like then that is truly your responsibility
When responsibility lies in the proper hands good things can result. When responsibility is thrust on the wrong person than it becomes ''BLAMING'' and the outcome is never good.

I'm responsible for my own words insofar as whether they are truthful and whether I follow the rules of the milieu that I'm in.

Where are we right now?
We're posting on a site which has rules and I believe I've followed those rules.
We are OUTSIDE of the cult and we are OUTSIDE of all rules that apply to the cult. True?
I do not have to worry about how MY WORDS affect the PERCEPTION that OUTSIDERS have towards YOU.

Correct?

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damaged13

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exfollower

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damaged13
Mind games and mixed messages are par for the course with this group. 13 years ago and I still remember like it was yesterday. It had been 4 years since I left the group and my father came to me with a final offer. I could rejoin the group now but time was running out. I was told those that left were dead branches that would have to be cut. Also that those that left were in danger from (I think) members of the Abensur family from Israel and were being watched. What kind of danger, I asked, but I never got a straight answer.

It's a good thing I held out for a better offer because years later he came back with a new one - I could come back whenever I wanted. Oh thank goodness!!

Believe it or not I'm still here, I haven't been "cut" and there are no strange Israelis hiding in my bushes with a telephoto lens. I'm proud that I stuck to my guns but truth be told this all messed with my head so bad I may never recover. Hope that's not the case.

damaged 13- it sounds like you are a "grownup", at least over 21? so my question - WHY DID YOU RETURN?

I didn't return, I'm not in the cult. I said "I'm still here" meaning alive, not murdered by the supposed threat that would come after me if I left. Got it?

damaged -thanks for clearing that up.

sallie - just believe him! i'm sure he DOES have mixed emotions; having your parents and friends still in is difficult at best, devastating at worst.

damaged- only one person on this board seems to not believe you... don't let one opinion dictate your actions. (re: reading, posting, sharing, healing, etc

HERE'S AN EXPLANATION I FOUND OF THE DOUBLE BIND PARENTING STYLE.


we hypothesise that the mother of a schizophrenic will be simultaneously expressing at least two orders of message. These orders can be roughly characterised as (a) hostile or withdrawing behaviour that is aroused whenever the child approaches her, and (b) simulated loving or approaching behaviour which is aroused when the child responds to her hostile and withdrawing behaviour, as a way of denying she is withdrawing.[72]

Bateson gave an example of the double bind situation taken from observations made during clinical practice. This example is much cited and has been frequently used by other writers to illustrate in summary the mechanism of double bind.

A young man who had fairly well recovered from an acute schizophrenic episode was visited in the hospital by his mother. He was glad to see her and impulsively put his arm around her shoulders, whereupon she stiffened. He withdrew his arm and she asked, ‘Don’t you love me any more?’ He then blushed, and she said, ‘Dear you must not be so easily embarrassed and afraid of your feelings.’ The patient was able to stay with her only a few minutes and following her departure he assaulted an aide and was put in the tubs.[73]

So my above post gives an example of a therapist who is observing TWO CONFLICTING MESSAGES BEING DELIVERED BY A SINGLE PERSON . The single person delivering the mixed message in the above post is mom..

But here's what I wonder....
I think....
What happens when a couple or a group of parents/elders work together to create this milieu of communication?

Like what if little Susie just got raped by cousin Ed and she reaches out to mom. Mom pulls away with frigid hostility and behaves in a hostile way. Little Susie retreats and then mom and cousin Ed and Uncle Shmoe the clan head and an elder etc..etc... consequently have long talks with Susie about how her ''REBEL'' behaviour is affecting and harming the group. She is tainting their image. The world will perceive them in a bad way and now they will be hurt and they're really such a loving and warm group of spiritual people...right...little Susie...ya don't wanna hurt the group...do ya???


I think about these things.....

Here is a 4 year response to my assertion that ACTS OF SEXUAL PERVERSION HAPPEN IN THIS CULT


DAMAGED sent me a MESSAGE
Here's the MESSAGE that DAMAGED sent me in response to my story about SEX ABUSE


DAMAGED posted
''I have to say I find this very hard to believe. I wonder what actual knowledge you can have of families other than your own. While some may have had these problems I don't think you can know that unless you saw it. Speaking as one of the children in question, I can say that nothing like this ever happened in my home, to me or to my siblings (one of whom is an adopted Korean).''



About that conversation which was instigated by my claims of SEX ABUSE, DAMAGED now sends me THIS MESSAGE
DAMAGED posted
'' I'm torn to shreds. My entire life and family has been affected by this group in a terrible way and I'm pretty sure you're trying to belittle that. Again. You don't like me, you've made that perfectly clear in your previous posts to me, and because of your hateful responses I haven't posted anything in years.''
DAMAGED also went on to tell me about her weaknesses and all that she cares about.



Wow....

It seems as if I've wounded a weak and caring person who told me they FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE my stories of sexual abuse.
Apparently I've hurt this person because they think I don't believe them because someone else didn't believe them and now that person is consoling Damaged...wow...oh boy ...wow....


Mind Control Games of a Cult 101



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2011 10:46PM by Sallie.

Here's a fun one

EXFOLLOWER sends this message to Marvin...a recently found good friend on this site
EXFOLLOWERLS MESSAGE IS

''

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exfollower
marvin - good point! (but rather than comparing them to neo-nazis; i'd say its more like any number of religions, who are closed-minded, and 'know the truth'.

''

soooo.......
by reading the ABOVE MESSAGE from EXFOLLOWER I'm hearing that I should be wary of people who think they ''know the truth''....which is a commonly used Christian term and..um...aren't most ''OUTSIDERS'' belonging to that religion??


EXFOLLOWER sends SALLIE a different MESSAGE in regards to another poster who claims they don't belong to this cult. As for the words of the former cult member EXFOLLOWR tells SALLIE
that I should '' sallie - just believe him! i'm sure he DOES have mixed emotions; having your parents and friends still in is difficult at best, devastating at worst. ''


Hmmmm???
Then EXFOLLOWER tells the person that I seem to distrust ''damaged- only one person on this board seems to not believe you... don't let one opinion dictate your actions. (re: reading, posting, sharing, healing, etc''





wow.....


Interesting.
1 - Damaged tells me that my tales of sex abuse are not believable

2 - Damaged tells me that I have hurt her with my words

3 - Exmember warns people about believing those who spew out Christian jargon(most OUTSIDERS are Christians)

4 - Exmember tells me I should ''JUST BELIEVE'' Damaged when she says she's not in a cult

5 - Exmember consoles Damaged and reminds her that everyone else believers her. Sallie is just a lone rebel on this site.





Is that about right?

Newsday article on Jack Hickman

Newsday article on victim of gang rape bringing charges against the Hicks man.

Rap Sheet on Delalio. A sex offender whose victim was a minor.

Divorce court hearings about Pastor Smestad's son sexually molesting a 3 year old.


my goodness

Exfollower, thank you.

Sallie, you're right, I'm entitled to my opinion and you are to yours. I was in a state over something else yesterday and I let you get to me. It won't happen again (hopefully).

Anyone born prior to 1960 and having stayed in the cult which was originated by JACK HICKMAN and now led by GARY COONS, would remember the interrogation game.


Let's see...it's the 1980s and many cult elders are concerned about being PROSecuted for sex crimes. What to do?

Well the youth of that day(now the elders) are told that a great PERSecution may come and that we have to practice concealing our identities.

One game was HIDE AND SEEK ON THE BEACH. I posted about that previously.

Then there was this INTERROGATION GAME.
Here's how we played. We would take turns interviewing each other. The person being interviewed couldn't just lie. That had to completely create a whole new persona. Change your accent. Change the way you talk. Your facial expressions.

So who is posting on this board who was born around 1960 and who stayed in this cult after the 1981 article?
I'd love to chat with anyone about these games that we used to play.
Remember?
The deception games?
Is anyone reading these posts who...like me...was involved in the group after the 1981 Newsday article and played those games?

Anyone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2011 02:49AM by Sallie.

Here's some info. I got on how a MANIPULATOR will use COVERT AGGRESSION.

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PLAYING THE VICTIM ROLE – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress.



VILIFYING THE VICTIM – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.




PLAYING THE SERVANT ROLE – Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others.


SEDUCTION – Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty.
Projecting the blame (blaming others) – Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

MINIMIZATION – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.