I'm surprised that X is reacting as she is - typically, the Ikedabots simply smile and nod, while saying, "That's because of all the fortune you accumulated from your membership in the organization. But it will run out, and THEN you'll be sorry!" Or something to that effect. They describe it as, like, filling up a bucket or some such, and when you leave (or don't do gongyo regularly), it's like you've punched a hole in the bottom of your bucket, and all your fortune is now ebbing away. So those who leave will still see benefits in their lives, due to their residual fortune. But since they're not creating any more (and they can't without being good little members), they WILL run out and then they WILL suffer!

BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! No, wait, I mean, "and won't that be sad?" :'(

You're probably right about the daughter - I had such a bad relationship with my own mother that I never lived closer to her than about 3 states away.

Back to X - since she's not doing the smug smile and "You'll be sorry" routine, I think you're right - she IS comparing your good fortune after leaving with her lack thereof from staying. She must be getting on in years by now, and that was the promise - if you practice for decades, when you're old you'll be set. Essentially. But by then it's too late to take a different course, isn't it?

I remember fairly early in my practice, 20 years was held out as the minimum practice time to see fantastic benefits - if you practiced for 20 years, you'd REALLY see actual proof! Well, I quit after practicing more than 20 years, and my life has developed so much more since then! Of course, that was predictable - my husband didn't enter his career until 2002, and I quit about 2007. He's good at what he does, so naturally, he would see his salary grow. But it REALLY grew after I left the SGI - the year after I left, he got a really enormous bonus and he's gotten a bonus of some kind every year since. I've rejected SGI advice on parenting and my children are amazing.

It's really a shame that the faithful, for all their talk of individual happiness and world peace, seem to watch and wait for us apostates to fail. Isn't that sort of mean-spirited? Shadefreude! People who live for the "I told you so".

I'm sure that part of X's anger is simply in getting busted. Shouldn't she have been protected from detection? I caught her out with an email - I told her that I couldn't figure out who might've told D (in ABQ) that I'd stopped chanting, so I'd just have to ask her (ok, that was sneaky on my part, and I didn't like doing it). The subject of her reply was "It might have been me," with perky verbiage to follow, and a brief lecture on the "the gohonzon is absolute." Honestly, I didn't read the whole thing - the flippant subject line was all I really needed; she was trying to be funny and it was completely disrespectful and dismissive of me as a feeling human being. The gohonzon is absolute, alright - it's absolutely a piece of paper. As I've mentioned, I've known X since high school . . . 40+ years. We re-connected in 2000, and probably spoke on the phone four or five times a week; we had a weird sisterly relationship in that we often disagreed, but I had genuine affection for her. I'd feel like this was a loss, but in a sense, there's almost an element of relief. Obviously, she was holding a lot back since I left the org, but it's spewed out all over the table now. I can't say that I've always been the most honest or conscientious person for all of my life, but I've made an honest effort over the years to improve that. I don't expect friends or family to be perfect, but honesty is a requirement.

At one point, we had a conversation about the "daimoku bank," and she declared that she didn't believe in that. Of course, she also says that she knows her daughter is completely protected, but stalks her on-line and worries incessantly about her; she says she knows that she is protected, but she won't leave the house alone. Her physical condition progressively deteriorates, she goes to the doctor for everything . . . She absolutely worships her daughter, and it breaks her heart to pieces that she's decided to live in Hawaii for the foreseeable future. Somehow, chanting hasn't helped her. She cannot admit that she was sold a bill of goods.

It's got to be troubling and confusing for her, to have been practicing for so long and to have her life declining instead of improving. For her to see my life do a 180 after I stopped chanting (I don't know if anybody remembers, but I was unemployed when I first started posting . . . I was in pretty dire shape) has got to be a bit of a blow. How could that have happened?

But all of that is too bad, and she serves as a cautionary tale. If you feel that lies and deception are appropriate to manipulate someone back "into line," then there is something fundamentally wrong with you and the belief system that you buy into. The Buddha encouraged his followers to question everything - that leaves the possibility that someone will find an answer that leads them away. The Dalai Lama has said that if science could disprove Buddhism, he would stop practicing. As far as I'm concerned, the science of reality (if there is such a thing) has disproved sgi to me. I can't imagine anything more miserable than putting myself back into that situation - it would be like putting my head in a noose and stepping off the chair.

The Buddha never said he had the *ONLY* way - just *A* way. So other paths were both possible and perfectly acceptable - no "one size has to fit all" here.

"The Dalai Lama has said that if science could disprove Buddhism, he would stop practicing. "

I believe you are misremembering. What the Dalai Lama said was that, if science were to disprove a fundamental tenet of Buddhism such as reincarnation (remember, he's only qualified to talk for TIBETAN Buddhism), then BUDDHISM would have to change. Here - see for yourself:

Quote

While his holiness the Dalai Lama is said to be the latest reincarnation of a series of Dalai Lama’s who have chosen to be reborn in order to enlighten others. The differences in world views could not have been any greater. Sagan had previously spoken and debated with religious leaders before, but he was uniquely surprised by his experience with the Dalai Lama. Speaking of the event, he said:

"…in theological discussions with religious leaders, I often ask what their response would be if a central dogma of their faith were disproved by scientific discipline. When I put this question to the Dalai Lama, he unhesitatingly replied as no traditionalist or fundamentalist religious leaders do: In such a case, he said, Tibetan Buddhism would have to alter. Even, I asked, if it’s a really central tenet, like reincarnation? Even then, he replied. However, he said mischievously - it will be hard to disprove reincarnation ! "

Sagan was surprised with this response. The meeting between the Dalai Lama and Carl Sagan illustrates something very potent about Buddhism that so many individuals find refreshing. Buddhism at its core is not about accepting dogma. Buddhism is not about blindly accepting ancient beliefs or tenets, but about experience and careful analysis of one’s life. [thebuddhasface.blogspot.com]

Though I must admit, I prefer the wording of the following account:

Quote

Speaking of the event, Sagan said:

"…in theological discussions with religious leaders, I often ask what their response would be if a central tenet of their faith were disproved by science. When I put this question to the Dalai Lama, he unhesitatingly replied as no conservative or fundamentalist religious leaders do: In such a case, he said, Tibetan Buddhism would have to change. Even, I asked, if it’s a really central tenet, like reincarnation?

Even then, he answered.

However, he added with a twinkle – it’s going to be hard to disprove reincarnation."

I can picture the Dalai Lama twinkling! :D

This article might help. Falsifiability is a better term to use than whether something can be 'disproven'.

Sagan may have used the term disproven to make his material more accessible to the public.

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

Begging the Question -- a lot of the groups discussed here on CE.com do this.

[www.google.com]

Thanks for the clarifications!

It is easy to imagine HHDL twinkling . . . he doesn't seem to take himself too seriously and is reputed to have a lovely sense of humor. I've read a number of his books, and that shines through. I love what he wrote in The Art of Happiness. I'm paraphrasing here, but he suggests that if you're having a dispute with someone and you're angry with him, just let it go. You'll be happier, and it will really tick the other guy off to see you that way while he's still miserable and po'd.

Hard to imagine Senseless twinkling, and it's not pretty in the mind's eye.

"Hard to imagine Senseless twinkling, and it's not pretty in the mind's eye."

*snork* Thanks - now I have to go bleach my brain! >.<

Quote

It is easy to imagine HHDL twinkling . . . he doesn't seem to take himself too seriously and is reputed to have a lovely sense of humor. I've read a number of his books, and that shines through. I love what he wrote in The Art of Happiness. I'm paraphrasing here, but he suggests that if you're having a dispute with someone and you're angry with him, just let it go. You'll be happier, and it will really tick the other guy off to see you that way while he's still miserable and po'd.

Where I have heard HHDL criticized is that he tiptoes and sidesteps around anything with even a whiff of controversy. For example, he was asked if he would kill a mosquito that was biting him. He said (this is from memory): "Oh, I might do this" (brushes gently at his other upper arm) "or I might do this" (blows gently *puff* *puff* at the same place on that upper arm). He would not address the question with a "Yes" or a "No." So that lovely, jolly, twinkly spiritual leader is quite savvy and wily at the same time, apparently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2013 11:06AM by StillTaitenAndProud.

He's an interesting character, no doubt about it. There's no doubt, though, that he's a far better representative of true Buddhism than Senseless. I'm sure that his life is quite luxurious, but isn't it interesting how different their personalities appear to be? One is mild-mannered and self-effacing, while the other is a braggart constantly on the hunt for further self-aggrandizement.

Well, I'm a big fan of HHDL, and always have been - I couldn't be trusted to give an unprejudiced opinion of him. He's steadfastly tried to resolve the whole China issue in a peaceful manner, which is probably about as much controversy as he wants.

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I, too, am a fan of HHDL. The whole Tibetan culture is so strange and exotic to me - the way the whole reincarnation bit seems to work for them. Pretty cool. I think the real bottom line consideration is this: Would you rather have HHDL or Daisucky babysit your children??

I think being raised as a catholic makes me relate a little more to the Tibetan version of Buddhism - all the statues, paintings, gilded hoop-dee-doo. And it does seem very exotic!

This is, almost literally, around the corner from me:

[foursquare.com]

Go to the slideshow.

They're Thai, and Hinayana, but the temple and grounds are stunningly beautiful and peaceful. I've visited, just to walk around, and the couple of times I've run into a priest he was always very friendly and sweet, and eager to answer any questions. What I particularly love about the place is that behind the main temple (sort of on its back porch) is a small separate room dedicated to Quan Yin. Most times, the door is unlocked and it's the most peaceful little (8x8?) space I can think of. It's also interesting to me that every time I go in there, there are literally hundreds of dollars in donations laying around . . . once again, in an unlocked unguarded room. The grounds are very accessible, too - they only close the main gate at night.

I live in a fairly small, almost entirely Christian community . . . the fact that this amazing place is next-door to a born-again church amuses me.

Let's see . . . would I want someone gentle, open-minded and generous of spirit who seems to emanate kindness watch my kids, or would I prefer a greedy, poison-spewing toad? I'm not sure - I have to think about that. ;-)