That really is a shame, Spartacus. The only suggestion I have is to go back through (if you haven't already) and try to reconstruct what you can. I can also suggest that you might try going to:

[www.reddit.com]

Taiten and I both placed a number of posts (taiten as "lambchopsuey" and "blanchefromage" and I as "wisetaiten." Although nobody seems to be posting there now, for awhile, it was a rough playing field; one of the posters took such issue with Taiten that he had her barred, which is why she came back as blanche. It seemed like a good place to start posting; with a number of people appearing there with questions about sgi, it was a good place to carry out a mission of discouragement. It got ugly there from time to time. Taiten, of course, left a number of excellent posts, so you may be able to jar your memory there - there are several threads, just go on and do a search for her or me.

Having suffered through a few computer crashes of my own, I learned the hard way to back everything up that I wanted to keep - it's a painful lesson.

This is the season of rebirth so, even if it's only a couple of us right now, let's keep this thing active even if we're only posting pleasantries to each other. I can't imagine anything more discouraging for someone looking to leave sgi and not having seen a post here for months. We're here, we care, and we're eager to support anyone who questions their membership and is looking for that understanding that leaving the organization is taking a step towards freedom of spirit.

Thanks for the suggestions mey. I went over to reddit after you guys did, and I posted on the "Buddhism - SGI" thread on Nov 29 (still the last post there) titled: "Ikeda's Cult of Personality Synonymous to Idol Worship within the SGI." You (wisetaiten) posted the only comment (to which I made a short reply). The like and dislike votes keep changing but no dialogue has ensued. Turned out to be more or less a dead end, but I will do a search for you guys' other posts over there.

I did make an effort after the changover loss to find my older posts from this forum, but came up empty handed. I did post an appeal on here for help in recovering my former posts as well, but none has been forthcoming.

I made over a hundred posts here before they were lost, and I don't see how I am ever going to "jog my memory" to recover all the subjects and topics that I covered. I'll just have to start again from scratch. As you pointed out - its a hard lesson to learn.

Forgive me using the old gakkai term, but it looks like you and I may have to "stand alone" around here for a while. But that's okay though, since there's at least two of us that still have that old "never give up" spirit, only this time we're never giving up on encouraging others with their decision and/or struggles to get the hell away from the sgi cult. The posters on this forum were an immense help for me and for my recovery from the SGI cult, and I will continue to hang in hopes of returning the favor for others in the future.

Mey, as usual, you really rock! Thanks for taking the time to reply - even an old blind man (like in taiten's favorite show, "Kung-Fu") could see that you are a beautiful person.

Have a happy Rebirth!
Spartacus

Aw, shucks Spartacus, thanks!

Well, if we didn't learn to stand alone when we were in sgi, we certainly learned to do so after we left - in terms of the friends we thought we'd made in the org. For a group that purports to be one that in inclusive and open-minded, those little brains clam up when it comes to accepting someone who leaves. Of course, that's typical cult behavior that I think stems from the tainted defectors giving members negative ideas about the group.

There was a YWD member (I'll call her J) who left in Feb or March, and I can't say that her leaving the group had no influence my decision to leave a couple of months later. She didn't leave as openly and finally as I did - she just said that she was stepping away for a while to deal with some personal issues (we all knew that J was having some serious and dangerous problems with her ex-husband).One of the factors in my decision to part ways with sgi was the lack of respect some of the leaders had in not acknowledging her request to be left alone. An MD leader, who was made out district leader earlier in the year, kept calling and emailing her - that was out of line, even by sgi standards. He was a toad, anyway, and we went head to head more than once, albeit in a fairly passive way.

Since the postings are gone, I'll briefly re-tell what finally made me leave the group. We had a member, A, who had lost her husband in a tragic car accident; she was in her early 40's and had two kids - a daughter 16 and a son who was 12. To put the sitch into further perspective, this is an Indian family and, of course, the father is the center of family life. He had a very lucrative position with a pharm company - they had a very high-end lifestyle. A, on the other hand, was a stay-at-home mom; she'd been an architect in India, but those qualifications don't stand here. They had a pretty nice life, but when the husband died, everything changed, and their future didn't look too good. A had weekly tosos at her house for several months, but was unable to attend study or discussion meetings; she was struggling to maintain a level of normalcy, particularly for her son . . . she was busy attending activities that he was involved in, as his father had and of course those events were on weekends, which was when all of the district meetings took place. I was in charge of publishing the district schedule to the members, and she contacted me to ask if she could put a toso on the schedule (she hadn't had one for a while). Since there had never been any hesitation on the part of the leaders to support her (or any other member requesting a toso) in the past, I was happy to do so. I received an email from Mr. Toad that evening telling me that it should be a leadership decision whether A could have a toso or not and that I shouldn't have just added it to the schedule. I (fairly politely) emailed him back, told him that he was full of crap, and that it had never been a leadership decision in the past so why was it now? I told him that it was our responsibility to support our members, and I quoted Senseless' admonition that the org existed for the members, not the other way around.

That same evening, I got a call from one of the co-WD members who told me that Mr. Toad had been including J in emails about meetings; this particular WD leader is Japanese . . . her English is a little shaky, and she doesn't communicate well in writing. I asked her if she wanted me to send out an email to the district reminding them not to include J in emails of that sort (we'd sent out an email prior to that, telling them the same thing), and she said that it would be a good idea. I sent out a brief email, not pointing any fingers at any individuals, just saying that J had requested to not be included in district emails, and that we needed to honor that.

The following day, I had a phone call from the Chapter WD (or whatever that hierarchical level is); I wasn't home when she called, but when I called her back, she told me in no uncertain terms that I had no business sending out emails like that, and that A shouldn't be having tosos if she couldn't make it to regular district meetings. I was so stunned that I really was almost speechless. I called my co-WD leader, "K" (not the one who'd called me about the emails); she came over and we talked about the situation. She told me that I had done the right things all the way down the line - in fact, she said that I'd been far too nice and should've told the chapter leader to "go eff herself."

You can imagine how surprised I was to get a call from K four days later telling me that there had been a leaders' that weekend, and it was decided that I wasn't going to be having planning meetings at my place any more and that I no longer needed to do the meeting schedules any more, since someone else (a "good" member who never rocked the boat) had volunteered. It was abundantly clear to me that I was being punished by having opportunities to gain benefits (using their language) taken away from me.

I stewed over this for a few days, thinking about the doubts that I'd had all along (mostly about Nichiren and Ikeda) and how the leaders had treated J and A. Oh, and how they'd treated me when I raised concerns about J and A! None of it gelled with what I knew about Buddhism, and I decided that I could no longer tolerate the bullshit. I thought about how other members I knew suffered in their lives, and how they were told time after time that they needed to chant more, strengthen their faith and practice or connect with Senseless "on a heart-to-heart" level. I thought about the inconsistencies between sgi and what I knew about Buddhism from my reading before I joined. I just couldn't force myself to try and tie it together any more.

I left in a little more dramatic fashion than J did; I sent an email to the district members and leadership as well as the chapter leaders and told them that I was leaving and why. Phone calls and emails from all of them ensued (despite my stipulation that I would welcome continuing communication with them on a friendship level, but absolutely no sgi-stuff); I ignored all of them, and I followed up with a letter to Klubhouse HQ in CA, threatening legal action if they didn't expunge my personal info from their records and cease all contact. I cc'd the local/chapter leadership on that, and other than an occasional phone call or greeting card, they left me alone.

Anyway, that's my story. I haven't heard anything from them for several months, other than from a couple of the ladies that I remain friendly with. The woman who shakubuku'd me (whom I've known for more than 40 years) and I no longer speak; that sometimes makes me sad, but I know what a false friendship that was now.

Hey Mey! How right you are - we really learn how to "stand alone" when we summon the courage to leave the SGcult behind. Leaving the control monster behind imparts a feeling of freedom and lightness that replaces the repression and delusions which formerly enslaved our precious humanity. It's strikingly simular to breaking up with a psycopathic spouse. In both cases, one must summon great courage and overcome every fear that keeps one locked into a harmful and destructive relationship, a crucial decision usually made without any substantial support from others that either don't understand or refuse to see the underlying cause of your pain and suffering. Friends and family usually resort to "blame the victim" tactics rather than admit the ugly truth, protecting the oppresor and their "good name".

Psychopaths, be they abusive spouses or religious organizations, are adept at hiding their evil nature, while presenting a beautiful picture of themselves to the world. They smile while driving the straw deep, hoping to suck your energy dry without you even noticing the drain. If you do begin to notice something and make overt objections, they quickly reach into their bag of psychological tricks to help misdirect and use your own thoughts against you, keeping you enslaved and easliy manipulated.

Thanks for recounting your story again. Sounds like a typical SGcult leadership power trip. The cult understands that by appointing "leaders" they gain a very powerful and useful tool of control over a member. Even the good people that know better are still coersed into obedience to the leadership heiarchy. Little by little people surrender themselves to the will of authority and higher position (to use their term - the world of animalism", until they have become an empty shell of themselves. I do not speak rhetorically here - this is something I know from experience. When I was in college, I had so involved myself in being an SGcult senior leader that I suffered a major identity crisis during my first attempt to reject the SGcult. I went into hiding so they couldn't find me and brow beat me into returning. HQ in LA harrassed my parents by phone repeatedly to gain information about my whereabouts. I had to move out of state to keep them off my trail because I was so fearful that the SG cult would recapture my soul.

Mey, you and I are the lucky ones - we recognized the danger from the cult to ourselves and made our break. But some are not so fortunate - they get hooked for life, or even worse, for generations by the SGcult. Like an abused spouse, these subservient cult victims always manage to find some poor excuse for for the bad behavior of their dominating oppressors (leaders).

Years later, during mt second stint of practicing with the SGcult, I thought that I could safely cancel out the negative aspects of cult leadership by refusing to hold a leadship position of any sort. I jokingly called myself a "positionless leader". But it didn't work, as I eventually still had to deal with the ego and power trips of the leadership heiarchy. The local cult leadership would continuouly (f**k with) redress my member friends and converts (mostly over facial hair and using cannabis), while leaving me completely unscathed, as they had no control mechanism (leadership position) to threaten me with. They threatened to take away leadership postions from any youth that did not comply with their rules, and it worked almost every time. People were forced into making lifestyle choices that pleased the leaders only. But when I witnessed the hypocrisy and injustice being fostered by local senior leaders upon the youth division members to conform to their demands, I stood up and spoke out against it, which created much hatred and animosity toward me. But the leaders still couldn't DO anything to me, because I wasn't a leader. Eventually, I left the SGcult a second time, only this time I was pissed, not scared.

Fast forward to 2003 - my thrid round and final departure from the SGcult. I had remarried and moved to Seattle. My new wife wanted the experience of practicing with a group, so there I was yet again involved with the SGcult. The straw that finally broke the camel's back occured when the SGcult senoir leadership refused to speak out against the Iraq War, or even support anay of the efforts of members that were boldly anti-war activists. Every feeble excuse made by the local cult leaders served to drive home the hypocrisy of this so-called "buddhist" organization that is in reality, pro-war (just the opposite of the Makiguchi/Toda fable). I finally had enough of the SGcult and it's over the top Ikeda worship. Getting rich and powerful by exploiting the suffering of people isn't Buddhism. Where was the compassion? Where was the enlightenment? As usual, nowhere to found. Nothing but another absolutely disgusting display of arragance was all that was apparent. As I walked out the door of the Seattle "culture" center for the last time, I knew I would never return. Never!

Fast forward another ten years. I stumbled upon this amazing forum on cults. At last, after 40 years, I came to fully understand the true nature and scope of the SGcult. What I learned about cults and about myself was a fantastic revelation of truth and healing. Doors opened in my mind and in my heart, and I stepped through them into the bright light of freedom. Never before have I been so happy. Many thanks to all the posters that have shared their experiences here.

I am an unenslaved spirit -
a slave that has freed himself -
I AM SPARTACUS.

Thanks for sharing your story, Spartacus - cult membership is almost exactly like being in a relationship with a psychopathic/sociopathic personality. The big difference is that you're breaking up with a slew of crazies instead of just one.

One of the things I find sad is that most of the members are good, decent people who have no idea how effed up their behavior is. They have been so brain-washed that they believe that they are doing the right things. The experience I had with my ex-best friend (who, by the way, lives in Bellingham - I'd bet a nickel that you know or knew the Crawfords) was text-book quality; she was completely able to justify setting up a chanting campaign and planned seduction back into the org with members I knew in Albuquerque. She saw absolutely nothing wrong with deceiving me, nor did the one ABQ member who so innocently contacted me just to find out how I was doing (after five years of nothing more than facebook "liking"). Lying to me was apparently an ok thing if it brought me back to the org. I saw it as nothing short of a betrayal, and Ms. Crawford was outraged by my view. I don't buy into the theory that the end justifies the means.

These people have had their perception of right and wrong seriously skewed. Treating other people so disrespectfully "for their own good" is just nuts. Having had my eyes so widely opened, I cannot even imagine ever going back. Once I left, I not only read so many of the posts here but did some independent reading on my own. Sgi and Senseless aside, I could find nothing of value for me in continuing to practice as a follower of nichiren.

I'm still wandering around on my own, mostly reading things written by HHDL, but there's no place locally where I would feel comfortable practicing. I'm moving to upstate NY in a few months, and after checking around, there seem to be a couple of places up there worth exploring. It is kind of lonely - if I miss anything about sgi, it's the sense of community - the cost of going back to them is far too high, though.

This certainly has been a learning-about-self experience and, in all ways, a positive one.

I agree with you - most members are good people. But these good people have had there good natures taken advantage of by the cult.org. The org eats its unsuspecting good intentioned folk and spits them out once they are no longer useful to the cult (ie. begin to question TOO much). The answers to probing questions must never be allowed to see the light of day.

Isn't it amazing how the SGcult can convince peeps to behave so darkly without ever giving a moment's thought to the immorality of their righteous cause to "do this for your own good". As if we were children that must be taken care of (fostered) by a nanny cult.org and ONLY they can know what's best for us (not ourselves - we couldn't possibly know what is best for ourselves - we need to be "guided" by the nannycult. How much farther can one get from "Buddhism"? To self-righteously presume to know what is best for another person is the ultimate ego trip and degrades the humanity and dignity of both parties - exactly opposite of all the beautifully advertised and orchestrated cult.org propaganda.

I don't know or remember the Crawfords from Bellingham. My interactions with the Seattle group was very limited due to keeping them at a safer arm's length of distance (and loudly rejecting the cult.org leadership trap). But I'm very familiar with their type - ACTING like a friend but ready to turn on you instantly if you don't tow the Gakkai line. Plotting , lying, manipuating - just to help get you hooked back onto the Gakkai heroin one more time. It really hurts to realize your friends are not your friends after all. This is the true reality of the delusion of "community". It was all an illusion. There never was any real community - just members wanting to use us to further their own stinknig agendas of more benefit - more! more! We were tricked (brainwashed) into believing that it okay to use the unhappines and misfortune of others to garnish ever more benefit for ourselves whenever possible - screw any sort of real compassion. That's not Buddhism and it never will be. When members are most in need of real-time down to earth actual help, the cult.org quickly turns it's back and plays the guilt game of "your faith is weak - you must chant more - you must "connect with senseless" etc etc etc. You could be sick,homeless, and starving but all you will ever get is the cold shoulder - "if your'e not happy its your fault for not practicing sincerely enough". It the ultimate hypocrisy.

I hope you do find a group in NY that you can be comfortable with and provide you with real community and caring - a group that doesn't have an underlying agenda to use you for their own gain.

By the way, I'm very curious to know - who is HHDL?

[I could not get the edit feature to work, so here's my re-edited post.]

I agree with you Meh, most members are good people. But these good people have had there good natures taken advantage of by the cult.org. The org eats its unsuspecting good intentioned members and spits them out once they are no longer useful to the cult (ie. begin to question TOO much, and/or become unwilling to be any further enslaved to the cult.org). As with any cult, truthful answers to probing questions must never be allowed to see the light of day.

Isn't it amazing how the SGcult can convince peeps to behave so darkly without ever giving a moment's thought to the immorality of their righteous cause to "do this for your own good". As if we were children that must be taken care of (fostered) by a nanny cult.org and ONLY they can know what's best for us cause you know, we couldn't possibly know what is best for ourselves. Yes, we need to be "guided" by the nannycult in all it's infinite wiesom. Yes, thats' why we must seek the wise mentor - the father figure sensei (master of wealth, power, and slime - a self-described follower of facism by his own admission!). Put the fat-ass pompous master's picture on or close to your alter so you can waste endless hours while enslaving your ownself by chanting to connect with his holiness. How much farther can one get from "Buddhism"? For any person to self-righteously presume to know what is best for another person is the ultimate ego trip and degrades the humanity and dignity of both parties - exactly opposite of all the beautifully advertised and orchestrated cult.org propaganda.

I don't know or remember the Crawfords from Bellingham. My interactions with other Seattle groups was very limited due to my practice of keeping them at a slightly safer arm's length of distance (and loudly rejecting the cult.org leadership trap). But I'm very familiar with their type - ACTING like a friend but ready to turn on you instantly if you don't tow the Gakkai line. Plotting , lying, manipuating - just to help get you hooked back onto the Gakkai heroin one more time.

My heart goes out to you - it really hurts to realize your friends are not your friends after all. This is the true reality of the delusion of "Gakkai community". It was all an illusion. There never was any real community - just members wanting to use each other to further their own stinknig agendas of more benefit - more! more! cult.org members are tricked (brainwashed) into believing that it is perfectly acceptable to use the unhappines and misfortune of others to garnish ever more benefit for themselves whenever wherever and however possible - screw any sort of real compassion - why worry when we can delude ourselves into beleiving that we are "helping' the wayward lost soul, covering up the real motive of personally gaining evermore benefits under the pretext of compassion. That's not Buddhism and it never will be. When members are most in need of real-time down to earth actual help, the cult.org quickly turns it's back and plays the guilt game of "your faith is weak - you must chant more - you must "connect with senseless" etc etc etc. You could be sick,homeless, and starving but all you will ever get is the cold shoulder - "if your'e not happy its your fault for not practicing sincerely enough". It the ultimate hypocrisy.

I hope you do find a group in NY that you can be comfortable with and provide you with real community and caring - a group that doesn't have an underlying agenda to use you for their own gain.

By the way, I'm very curious to know - who is HHDL?

HHDL - His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I think that as far as a religious leader is concerned, he seems to have the least personal agenda. From reading his materials, it seems that he just wants other people to be happy and filled with peace, and if we find that through Buddhism, that's fine. If not, that's equally fine. There's no stridency or drum-beating announcing his way of practice as being the only one. I've seen in him numerous interviews, and he seems like a kind uncle with a generous spirit and kind sense of humor. He just seems like a really fine human being.

Finding out that friends are really friends after all is hard, but it's part of breaking away from the toxicity of the organization. The lying and manipulation that went on was a confirmation that our judgment of the group was true, though . . . turning decent people into ikeda-bots - it's like drinking a slow-acting poison.

That sense of community is what Kurt Vonnegut called a "granfalloon" - "if you want to examine a granfalloon, just remove the skin of a toy balloon." It's a group whose association is based on a false premise. Kind of like being in a strange city and you meet someone from your home-town and try to form a friendship with them with that as the sole basis. I used to marvel at the diversity you would see at almost any meeting, but now realize that most of those folks are people that I had nothing but sgi in common with, and wouldn't really choose to socialize with outside of the group. Wikipedia shines a bit of light on the sinister side of that: [en.wikipedia.org]

What makes it worthwhile, though, is that along with liberating yourself, every once in a while, you find out that you've helped someone else do the same thing. I had a chat with a woman I used to practice with back in Las Cruces this morning - we don't talk all that often, and I think I've only spoken with her once or twice since I left sgi in May. she told me something that brought tears to my eyes . . . she said that I'd given her the courage to leave the org once and for all, that I'd helped her realize that it was no deficiency on her part that had given her the feelings of doubt that had been growing in her mind. I'm so touched.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2014 04:44AM by meh.

In looking at the recent-post dating of the other threads on this forum, I'm seeing that this particular one isn't the only one that's suffering from neglect lately.

I'm hoping that this is just a holiday hiatus, and not a permanent condition; I think switching providers and the great crash of '13 have been huge discouragements, too. Let's remember the spirit behind this website - we're here to support each other any anyone else who's fighting the same internal battles that we went through when leaving sgi.

Happy New Year to all!

Hi, guys! Happy New Year! I got away from this forum because *nothing* was happening here for so long. Nice to see you both posting again!