I like the analogy of a commute. It really clarifies the disconnect between the requirements of commitment to the cult and the norms of society at large. It appears that this gap increases to the point of becoming unbridgeable the deeper the individual is immersed into that belief system. My best friend from high school converted to Jehovah's Witnesses so that the Jehovah's Witness guy she'd had an affair with while her first marriage was imploding would marry her. Let's just ignore the implications of a Jehovah's Witness willingly having an affair with a married woman, of course. We were able to remain in some contact, even as that cult sought to screen her personal relationships. We'd lived in different states for several years; at one point, she moved from the state we'd gone to high school in, Kansas, to Washington State because the local "elders" there in Kansas were pressuring her to dump her best friend, who was a gay man. He moved with them! Our relationship continued, to a very limited extent, until the 9/11 WTC attacks - at that point, I became quite passionate and excited about some of the materials that were coming out on the internet, and I forwarded several to her. I'm not sure if it was the Apple Brown Betty one or the Thich Nhat Hanh one, but at one point, she send me an email: "Please don't send me any more of this stuff!" I think that might have been the last I heard from her :/

Oh look, I still have her response in my mailbox:

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Please,don't send me anymore of this kind of mail...
Thanks...
Don't forward me anything else...don't want it...not at all...

Apple Brown Betty: [scientopia.org] - it's by Stephen Jay Gould, a luminary in the biological sciences (so singled out for attack by the god-botherers because the facts prove their Genesis creation story is a bunch of hooey)

Thich: [theshalomcenter.org] - I can't remember if this is the one that was so meaningful to me at that time :/ It's the text that starts with the poem just below the announcement.

Maybe it's this one: [www.beliefnet.com]

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Excerpt:
Darkness cannot be dissipated with more darkness. More darkness will make darkness thicker. Only light can dissipate darkness. Violence and hatred cannot be removed with violence and hatred. Rather, this will make violence and hatred grow a thousand fold. Only understanding and compassion can dissolve violence and hatred. "Strike against terror" is a misleading expression. What we are striking against is not the real cause or the root of terror. The object of our strike is still human life. We are sowing seeds of violence as we strike. Striking in this way we will only bring about more hatred and violence into the world. This is exactly what we do not want to do.

The root of terrorism cannot be located by the military. Bombs and missiles cannot reach it, let alone destroy it.

Hatred and violence are in the hearts of human beings. A terrorist is a human being with hatred, violence, and misunderstanding in his or her heart. Acting without understanding, acting out of hatred, violence, and fear, we help sow more terror, bringing terror to the homes of others and bringing terror back to our own homes. Whole societies are living constantly in fear with our nerves being attacked day and night. This is the greatest casualty we may suffer from as a result of our wrong thinking and action. Such a state of confusion, fear and anxiety is extremely dangerous. It can bring about another world war, this time extremely destructive.

How can you be friends if you are not allowed to share what's meaningful to you, if your "friend" refuses to even listen?

For example, those nasty Jehovah's Witnesses "elders" gave her a good talking-to when she decided to get growth hormone supplements for her son from her first marriage. She was only about 4'11"; her first husband, a Mexican national, was only about 5'2". I'm only mentioning his nationality because people who are stunted from poor nutrition/disease tend to have small children themselves; the issues relating to the stunting work out by the second generation, though. Anyhow, their son, at age 3, still weighed only 20 lbs. He wasn't growing. He needed the supplementation. Fact: You can't create a Shaquille O'neil by giving a normal child growth hormone - that supplementation has no effect. By supplementing her son, she was able to ensure that he would end up in the normal height range. He's on the short end, but he's in the normal range. So these dickheads came to tell her that she was wrong in seeking this sort of treatment, that it wasn't what "god" wanted. She told me, "It's just because they love us." I said, "If they really loved you, they would understand and wouldn't be trying to make your life more difficult." I can stray into frenemy territory from time to time, as you can see :)

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For example, that they are actually led by a guru considered infallible, but this is not mentioned to new recruits who might otherwise refuse to join.

The SGI's guru is a fat, scheming, frog-like Japanese man with thinning, greased-down hair named Daisaku Ikeda. He may even be dead already but the membership won't be privy to that information until his pasty, do-nothing patsy of a son has been crowned as his replacement.

Know what? The ingredients for a good dessert, whether apple brown better or cheesecake, dont combine and become the desired result if on stands there and prays or chants.

One needs a reliable recipe, and knows how much to put in, where and when. Plus the right amount of time in an oven at the right tempreture.

If one piles up the ingredients and chants, the stuff will just sit there.

And...doesnt matter if the chef is an atheist or adheres to a faith based belief system.

Another note: Apple brown betty is a comfort food. And can be made on a budget--a time when one really wants
some consolation.

There are times when the toughest of us want to be consoled and dont know it.

And that is when an offering like that hits the spot.

Private language is something else to set cult members aside as special - they have their very own esoteric tongue. One friend (who no longer speaks to me) was constantly inserting Japanese phrases into her conversations . . . I always found it annoying and pretentious. I appreciate that some ideas can be more concisely conveyed in another language (elegantly translate "schmuck" in less than two or three words, for instance), but there was always a clear aura of "I'm so smart! Ask me what I mean!" By insulating members from outsiders, they are being sheltered from ideas that may cause them to start questioning whether what they believe makes sense. I've been told by long-term zombies that they were encouraged to form friendships with non-Buddhists, but I imagine that was strictly for shakubuku purposes. If your circle of friends is limited to other members, you can't shanghai more people into the group. That's one thing I definitely don't miss - whenever I spoke with outsiders, I always felt like I should be sizing them up as potential members; I'm grateful that I was probably the worst shakubuku-er ever!

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Private language is something else to set cult members aside as special - they have their very own esoteric tongue. One friend (who no longer speaks to me) was constantly inserting Japanese phrases into her conversations . . . I always found it annoying and pretentious.

TELL me about it! Pretentious it is! I was waiting for my lunch order at Rubio's one day, and this woman approached me - turns out she was the Chapter WD leader in the chapter I belonged to before I bolted. She couldn't remember my name (which was fine, since I couldn't remember hers, either lol) and after about 3 sentences of chitchat, she said, "You used to chant NaaAM MYOHO rrrrrrenge kyo!" I said, "Yeah, but not any more." The fact that she announced it in a singsong like a Pentecostal preacher (she's black) while rrrrrrolling her rrrrrr on "renge", when she didn't roll "r"s on any other word made me feel a huge eye roll coming on.

"Say, did you think that by over-pronouncing 'Nam myoho renge kyo' that I'd suddenly, against all reason and expectation, want to come rrrrrrrunning back to yourrrr cult??"

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there was always a clear aura of "I'm so smart! Ask me what I mean!"

You have no idea. My ex-husband used to use obscure words, and when I called him on it, saying that in order to have a conversation with someone, it's best to use commonplace words when those exist (and they always did), and he revealed that he *looked up* the weird words and peppered his conversation with them because he wanted people to ask him what they meant! It was all a "LOOK AT MEEEEEE!!!" exercise, in other words!

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I've been told by long-term zombies that they were encouraged to form friendships with non-Buddhists, but I imagine that was strictly for shakubuku purposes.

This is exactly it. Remember how the leaders would exhort the members to "invite lots of guests" to whichever activity was next on the calendar? Funny how, of all those "guests," it seemed that less than 1% ever came back :/

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If your circle of friends is limited to other members, you can't shanghai more people into the group.

Therein lies the rub, I'm afraid. In order to cement members into the cult, it is necessary to isolate them from society. But if they're isolated, the cult can't gain access to more wallets! What to do? What to do?

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That's one thing I definitely don't miss - whenever I spoke with outsiders, I always felt like I should be sizing them up as potential members; I'm grateful that I was probably the worst shakubuku-er ever!

Boy, howdy, me too! At one point when I was a district YWD leader, I think, my HQ YWD leader arranged for me to help this woman get her gohonzon. Her friend who'd sold her on the idea had moved to New York, you see, and so she needed a local contact. She was mentally ill - depression, meds, suicide trips to the hospital, group, long-term disability, the whole 9 yards. However, in order to advance to another leadership position, the candidate had to have at least one "shakubuku"! So she served as my token shakubuku - I didn't introduce anyone else! And even though she in short order reverted to Christianity (it tends to go hand-in-hand with mental illness), she still counted so I could continue my meteoric rise to power!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!! Those few I taught to chant had *no* interest in the organization, and I couldn't find it within myself to pressure them to come to activities, when I didn't enjoy them either :D

Say, I mentioned this before, but I think it was in one of the "lost" posts - in 2002, I went to a big Soka Spirit meeting up in LA. Melanie Meriens (Merians?) was one of the speakers - she'd been a big cheese YWD leader out here on the West Coast (I'd just moved out here) and all the ikedabots were all excited. Well, she opened her remarks with "In my 20 years of practice, I have helped over 400 people get gohonzon!" Wild applause! "Do you know how many of those are still practicing? Two." Silence. She then went on to suggest that the "Rissho Ankoku Ron" was poorly received by the government leader(s) Nichiren hoped to manipulate over to his side because Nichiren was inexperienced at that point and hadn't developed very good communication skills! We never heard from Melanie Merians again O_O

At least I don't have a lingering sense of guilt, as Spartacus mentioned, from having gotten people hooked into the cult. Here is something I just remembered - I find it very helpful in a wide variety of contexts:

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"When a trout rising to a fly gets hooked on a line and finds himself unable to swim about freely, he begins with a fight which results in struggles and splashes and sometimes an escape. Often, of course, the situation is too tough for him.

In the same way the human being struggles with his environment and with the hooks that catch him. Sometimes he masters his difficulties; sometimes they are too much for him. His struggles are all that the world sees and it naturally misunderstands them. It is hard for a free fish to understand what is happening to a hooked one." – Karl A. Menninger

Karl Menninger was a mental health pioneer - the Menninger's mental health hospital between Lawrence, KS, and Topeka, KS, was named after him.

Anybody seen Hitch??

_{"At least I don't have a lingering sense of guilt, as Spartacus mentioned, from having gotten people hooked into the cult." Quote Taiten}

Gee Taiten, I sure don't remember expressing guilt regarding introducing anyone to the SGcult. I can only remember getting 4 people to receive Gohonzon during 30 years of on again/off again practice. Perhaps I was referring to guilt at getting myself hooked.

I convinced my two older brothers to receive the Gohonzon during my (first) sr leader period. Neither learned gongyo and never did any activities. I used to send members over to home visit the oldest brother, but had to stop, as he always managed to get them high on weed (giggle). He might still hang his gohonzon on the wall once in a very great while and chant to it a bit. I'd say both brothers were pretty unaffected by the SGcult. So no guilt there.

During my second stint in the cult as a self-proclaimed "positionless leader" (I "resigned" my sr leader position during my first escape [not exaggerating] from the cult). I only got one guy to receive the gohonzon and, unlike me, he became a powerhouse of shakabuku. Had a knack for getting people to join. I don't feel any guilt about him either - he's just as delusional as ever. I saw him in a youtube video from last year (one Hitch came up with) - still there in the same place doing the same thing for the cult. He's totally brainwashed, but I"m not going to own that one. I blazed a trail outta there almost 20 years ago - guessing he will never follow my lead.

The fourth person was my ex-wife. She never received gohonzon (as I had the large oketagi model). After she learned gongyo, she wanted to practice with a group, which is the only reason I went back for a third round with the SGcult. I eventually married her to help get her kids back from her Christian Prick mom (angered over my wife's Buddist practice), and in return, she cheated on me with another SGcultie member. She was a psychopath (like her mom) that could fit in easily with any religious cult. I'm sooooo glad I cut her loose as well as the Sgcult. After regaining myself and my spirtual freedom, I wrote a self-healing song entitled "Never Coming Back". Statement still stands.

Have I ever felt guilty about being in a cult or introducing others? I don't think so. But I did regret choosing to let myself be suckered in so easily (until I came to this MB and had a few realizations about how a cult works. They really know how to set up their marks.) I don't regret the lessons I have learned.

So I pose the question, "should we as former cult members ever suffer from guilt due to having introduced others in the cult?" My answer is a resounding, "NO!" We were programmed to behave that way. Like so many others, I absolutely hated doing shakabuku. Yet we still did it. Why? Because that what a cult does - influences one to think and behave in a manner that is not natural or comfortable otherwise (going against one's own moral/ethical standards due to pressure from the cult). That's how you can be sure it is a bona fide cult. And SGI definitely qualifies as a cult.

Spartacus

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Gee Taiten, I sure don't remember expressing guilt regarding introducing anyone to the SGcult.

I may be misremembering, but I thought you mentioned that you felt bad for the four people you'd introduced who were still hooked, now that you're "out". Saw-wee if I misrepresented your position! I could, of course, be thinking about someone else's comment and somehow managed to stick it onto you :P

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I don't regret the lessons I have learned.

I feel the same way. However, now I can realize that, due to the cult's influence, some negative traits within myself blossomed in unfortunate ways, such as how the interpretation of "karma" being to take personal responsibility for everything -> not standing up for myself when unfairly attacked/accused by others. So while there were a few good developments, there were unfortunately more bad ones. For me.

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So I pose the question, "should we as former cult members ever suffer from guilt due to having introduced others in the cult?" My answer is a resounding, "NO!" We were programmed to behave that way. Like so many others, I absolutely hated doing shakabuku. Yet we still did it. Why? Because that what a cult does - influences one to think and behave in a manner that is not natural or comfortable otherwise (going against one's own moral/ethical standards due to pressure from the cult). That's how you can be sure it is a bona fide cult. And SGI definitely qualifies as a cult.

Yeah, it really doesn't sound like YOU were the one who felt bad for the people you shakubukued who were still in! I feel the same way - we were all doing our best, and we still are. So are they! The example of your brothers really demonstrates how someone really needs to have the proper "conditioning" to be susceptible to such things in the first place. And if someone already has a predisposition to toward that sort of influence (like your ex), they'll probably end up getting it from SOMEwhere. And, quite frankly, it doesn't sound like anyone except that one guy will be a source of $$$ for Toad the Fatman - ha ha ha. Isn't that the whole point of shakubuku?? Mr. Shakabuku DOES sound like that environment fits him to a "T" >shrug< What can you do? Drag people kicking and screaming toward enlightenment? Not in REAL Buddhism, you can't!

I'm still glad I didn't do any shakubuku! :P

Since the post has disappeared, I'll repeat my experience with my first shakubuku campaign as a brand new YWD. It was in August, seems to me, and I hadn't even gotten my gohonzon yet. This was back in the day when an area had to accumulate enough candidates for the eeeeevil, moneygrubbing priests to feel it was worthwhile to make a trip to the boonies to hand out the scrolls. That year, we had 100 people get gohonzons - I think that was the Minnesota record. So anyhow, here comes the "Shakubuku Campaign." And we're all exhorted to "Set a goal!" Well, to me, that means "bodycount," because how can you predict what a person needs for their life? Making a life commitment to a belief system is a pretty damn big step - how can you, in advance, predict how many people you're going to be able to encounter who are going to be in a position to be prepared to take that step?

As you can see, I really didn't understand - I thought it was about people's lives, not the organization just selling more scrolls and subscriptions!

So anyhow, the YWD chapter leader I was acquainted with - she was nice; we both played flute in Kotekitai but she was WAY better than I was - she was a music major. ANYHOW, she comes by - with this Japanese young woman in tow. I'd never seen the Japanese woman before, and I thought it weird and off-putting for the woman I knew to be bringing along some woman I DIDN'T know, especially to talk about something problematical like bodycount. The weirdness intensified when I realized this Japanese national spoke barely 10 words of Engrish!

When I expressed my misgivings about the whole bodycount idea, she says, "Shakubuku...make...people...happy. People...want...to do...shakubuku." Thanks, hon, run along now. You're useless! If people *WANT* to do something, then by all means! Let them do it! But the rest of us shouldn't be pressured to do something that we don't want to do.

Glad you're still around, Spartacus! Any idea when Chapter 5 will come out? Have you been in contact with Hitch? He's been conspicuously absent since The Big Delete.

Hi Taiten,

I've been lurking around a bit, trying to keep up with reading posts, but have had very little time to write as it has been such a busy time of year for me. Winter is coming (not a reference to Game of Thrones lol) and I hope to have extra time and opportunity to wrangle myself into writing some more chapters for the book. Since this info was lost with all those hundreds of posts (have tried, but still haven't figured out how to recover any of our precious posts - damn it!), here's a link to my SGcult book project "Cult of the Master".

My former friend (the Shakabuku King), still stuck in the SGcult world, not suprisingly was raised as a Catholic and attended Catholic school. So I think he was already pre-trained and found a comfortable fit with religious practices steeped in a cult environment. That fits right in with your thoughts about being properly conditioned to accept life in a cult, or having a strong pre-dispostion that makes one more susceptable to cult influences.

I couldn't practice proper Shakabuku. I prefered to practice the Shoju form of introducing others. Explaining Buddhist concepts came much easier to me than trying to twist someone's arm (break their beliefs). I didn't want to "break" anything or anyone. Never seemed very Buddhist to me. I wanted people to join the org due to their own free will and seeking mind. It took me a long time to figure out that once anyone was hooked into the SGcult, there would be no free will allowed.

During my later years in the SGcult, I cant remember how many times I wanted to stand up and shout, "SHAKABUKU SUCKS and so do these UNBEARABLY BORING PHONEY-ASS discussion meetings and BROWN-NOSED leaders!" Although I never did, at least I finally grew a big enough pair to stand in front of all the members at an Sgcult communtiy center and speak truth to power. The vile hate and anger of the members and leaders flowed toward me, but it didn't matter. Speaking out directly to the members against the SGcult's many corruptions was one of the most empowering moments of my life. One I will savor always. Throwing off the yoke of one's oppressors allows a true re-birth of the human spirit.

Now that the little tyrant's cult has been rejected, it is time to face the biggest most insidious tyrant of all, the murderous "Bankster's War-State cult". Just like every cult, the War-For-Profit cult intends to enslave and rule the world. As usual, there's noone going to rush in to save us all - we must find a way to save ourselves. Another awakening is at hand.

I don't know what's happened to Hitch but I sure miss his input. I enjoyed all the interesting video links he used to post for us at the old MB site.


MB WEBMASTER: Would it be possible for the webmaster here to send out a blanket email with notification of the new MB web address to any of the old posters? There are not very many posters that have made the transition over here, and it would seem we've lost a lot of valuable contributing members - perhaps because they still don't know what the MB's new addy is, or where the site has moved to. Just wondering. Thx.

Spartacus

Hi all,
Wow, it's been a couple of years since I posted on this board. Anyway, I'm back because the wheel is continuing to turn - I've have just come back from a Buddhist retreat and decided that it's time to give back my Gohonzon to the SGI. So, I'll let you guys know what happens - I think I'd like to actually meet up with someone and hand it to her and see what that feels like. At this point, it is really a formalization of a done deal - I've mentally exited the Gakkai a long time ago and I feel like I can hand it over with a light heart - I'm not really looking for a confrontation or to make a point, just to mark the fact that the page has been turned.

Regarding me and the Gakkai, I'm kind of looking to integrate the experience. The page has been turned, but the chapter is still in the book. In other words, I'm not looking to suppress it or to forget about it, but rather, to look deeply into it, figure out what I learned, what I want to keep, and what I want to throw away. Especially because I still consider myself a Buddhist.

Certainly the experience with the Gakkai caused me some pain. Thich Nhat Hanh writes in "Entering the Heart of the Buddha": "Without suffering, you cannot grow. Without suffering, you cannot get the peace and joy you deserve. Please don't run away from your suffering. Embrace it and cherish it… (The Buddha will) show you ways to embrace your suffering and look deeply into it… Our suffering has the capacity of showing us the path to liberation. Embrace your suffering and let it reveal to you the way to peace."

I'm embracing my time with the Gakkai and thinking about how I want to use it in the future. So I may post more later as I do so!

Cheers!

Hi, sunmoonstars. I'm very happy that you're feeling like you're in a good place. One note: Your gohonzon is YOURS. YOU paid for it, didn't you? Why not let the SGI buy it back from you? Until then, it's YOURS do to whatever you like with. You can hang it on your wall. Line your birdcage with it. Give it to Goodwill! Sell it on eBay! Toss it into the trash. It is nothing but a mass-produced xeroxed copy of something, glued onto some pretty paper which was then glued onto some wooden or plastic dowels, with a little bit of yarn thrown in. Probably cost all of $0.23 to make. I'm guessing you paid $20 for it - amirite? Why not turn a page by lifting a garbage can lid? The SGI is just going to throw your gohonzon into the trash once you return it - you know that, right?

If you remain in thrall to their doctrines and rules, I wonder if this is the right place for you. Integrate whatever experience whatever way you like, but this forum is explicitly for people who are recovering from the cult experience. I'm sure anyone can claim it's a half-full/half-empty sort of deal, but the purpose of this board is to discuss freeing ourselves from culty exploitation.

Embrace whatever you like in whatever way works best for you. Just keep in mind that, while you were doing ONE thing, you were not able to do any of these hundreds of other things. That's the cost of being in the cult. So while you may attribute this or that positive outcome to your time in the cult, there is really no way to measure just what you would have been able to accomplish if you hadn't gotten suckered in in the first place. It's like someone who has been systematically starved or poisoned going through a heroic effort to try and whitewash it and spin it into something virtuous. It wasn't. You were exploited - there's no harm in acknowledging that. In fact, it's important to do so in order to break the cult's power to seduce and harm others.

If your purpose is to sugarcoat your cult experience, well, then this isn't really the place for that. For many, if not most of us, our purpose, our meta-message, if you will, is to enable others to find the strength to break away from a cult that, like all others, uses fear and mind-control techniques to keep its sheeple docile, compliant, and paying.

The fact that the Gakkai now is virtually 100% about the brilliance of Toadface Ikeda and the importance of subordinating your own individuality beneath heroic efforts to mimic Daisucky - while giving until it hurts, essentially - shows that, while there might have been something Buddhist in it once upon a time, that time is long since gone. Now, it's just another cult - why don't they name it the Daisuckies, like the Moonies, so it's more honest?

Suffering is not a virtue. If you really think it is, then perhaps Catholicism is the religion for you. The whole point of the Buddha's teachings was to enable people to rid themselves of suffering, you know. So there is no reason to gild something ugly and try to make it into something beautiful - that sow's ear will never a silk purse be.

It is far more palatable to say, "Yes, this was unpleasant, but LOOK HOW MUCH IT ENABLED ME TO GROW!" instead of "Yeah, I was involved with a cult, and it was damaging and it really held me back, and yes, I'm embarrassed that I wasted that much of my life on something so ignoble." But the whole cult mentality is to exhort you to regard EVERYTHING as a positive - just look at that wretched "zange" page from Vice President Tsuji. That's all about being victimized and regarding every victimization as ultimately your own fault. Let's all not only blame the victim, but embrace the concept! It's ugly and there's no two ways about it.

If you must spin something horrid into a plus somehow, you may never be able to come to terms with its truly destructive and poisonous nature. Perhaps you weren't "in" long enough to become the target of abuse or to experience exploitation and the pressure to do things you truly weren't comfortable with. If so, then I applaud you on getting out when you did. But if you got out for any reason other than that you got bored or that you simply realized there were always other things you'd rather do than activities, perhaps a look at the circumstances and personalities under the glaring white light of a bare interrogation-room light bulb would help. Once you're out, there's no reason to try and apologize for it. If you feel there is, perhaps you're not all the way out after all.

BTW, there's nothing Buddhist about the Gakkai. Take a look at these quotes attributed to the Buddha and take note:

"Winning gives birth to hostility. Losing, one lies down in pain. The calmed lie down with ease, having set winning and losing aside."

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

Ultimately, all experiences are empty. There is no "greater purpose" - that's an expression of attachment and delusion. The concepts of "deserve" and "embrace" and "cherish" are all expressions of *attachment*, just as "Buddhism is win or lose" is. The purpose of Buddhism is to enable us to disengage from our small, immature, grasping egotism, to the point that we won't seek after "deserve" and "embrace" and "cherish" etc. The concept of "emptiness" is crucially important within Buddhism; what it means is that the only value is in whether something enables us to become less clinging, less attached. The whole goal is to rid ourselves of delusions and attachments, after all - that's what Buddhism is all about. If you're interested, here is a great article that explains emptiness: [www.thezensite.com]

Don't let the name put you off. Sure, Nichiren said that "Zen is the work of devils," but there's no such thing as "devils" and Nichiren was an intolerant bigot who wanted the government to make him a superstar. So I think we can take his opinions with a grain of salt, so to speak. From the site above, here is an important passage:

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This dialectical process is often called the Middle Way of the Twofold Truth (erh ti chung tao). Like the Middle Way, the Twofold Truth is essentially a way of emptiness as it is a path of eliminating extreme views so that one may be "empty" of attachments. Different levels here represent the degree of one's spiritual maturity and accomplishment. The advance from one level to another is the process of salvation or transcending the world. The doctrines of "the Middle Way of Eightfold Negation," "a distinction between the conventional truth and the ultimate truth," and "Emptiness" should be examined and comprehended from different levels. The Middle Way is not just a refutation of a pair of extreme views, but a negation of all extreme views wherever they occur. The conventional truth and the ultimate truth do not stand for two definite truths or realities. They have different connotations and implications on each level. The dialectical process is not limited to three levels. It is a means of purifying the mind, which can be employed progressively to infinite levels until one is free from all conceptual attachments. When all attached things and views are completely eliminated, "Emptiness" means "absolutely non-abiding."

It should be noted that to obtain the ultimate liberation from ignorance and delusions one does not have to go through three levels or the infinite stages of the gradual progression; for one can achieve enlightenment instantly. Emptiness is like a medicine: some people may have to take the medicine many times before their diseases are cured, but others may take it just once and be instantly healed. Also no matter how one obtains salvation, he should know that, as with medicine, emptiness is of use to him only so long as he is ill, but not when he is well again. Once one gets enlightenment, emptiness should be discarded.

However, ultimately no truth for the Maadhyamika is "absolutely true." All truths are essentially pragmatic in character and eventually have to be abandoned. Whether they are true is based on whether they can make one clinging or non-clinging. Their truth-values are their effectiveness as a means (upaaya) to salvation. The Twofold Truth is like a medicine;it is used to eliminate all extreme views and metaphysical speculations. In order to refute the annihilationist, the Buddha may say that existence is real. And for the sake of rejecting the eternalist, he may claim that existence is unreal. As long as the Buddha's teachings are able to help people to remove attachments, they can be accepted as "truths." After all extremes and attachments are banished from the mind, the so-called truths are no longer needed and hence are not "truths" any more. One should be "empty" of all truths and lean on nothing.

To understand the "empty" nature of all truths one should realize, according to Chi-tsang, that "the refutation of erroneous views is the illumination of right view." The so-called refutation of erroneous views, in a philosophical context, is a declaration that all metaphysical views are erroneous and ought to be rejected. To assert that all theories are erroneous views neither entails nor implies that one has to have any "view". For the Maadhyamikas the refutation of erroneous views and the illumination of right views are not two separate things or acts but the same. A right view is not a view in itself; rather, it is the absence of views. If a right view is held in place of an erroneous one, the right view itself would become one-sided and would require refutation. The point the Maadhyamikas want to accentuate, expressed in contemporary terms, is that one should refute all metaphysical views, and to do so does not require the presentation of another metaphysical view, but simply forgetting or ignoring all metaphysics.

Like "emptiness," the words such as "right" and "wrong" or "erroneous" are really empty terms without reference to any definite entities or things. The so-called right view is actually as empty as the wrong view. It is cited as right "only when there is neither affirmation nor negation." If possible, one should not use the term. But

We are forced to use the word 'right' (chiang ming cheng) in order to put an end to wrong. Once wrong has been ended, then neither does right remain. Therefore the mind is attached to nothing.

To obtain ultimate enlightenment, one has to go beyond "right" and "wrong," or "true" and "false," and see the empty nature of all things. To realize this is praj~naa (true wisdom).

As you can see, the goal of ending clinging (attachment) means that nothing can be regarded as an "ultimate truth." That, in itself, is clinging and attachment. The Buddha's aim was to equip people to step out into reality unencumbered by any of the typical crutches. To cling to Buddhism - or anything else - is attachment, which, by definition, means you cannot attain enlightenment. The Buddhist doctrines point to an inescapable conclusion - even Buddhism must be cast aside if one is to attain enlightenment (which is defined as the cessation of clinging, craving, delusion, and attachment). So chanting until the last moment of your life is, actually, a statement reflecting attachment, the antithesis of enlightenment.

I'm sure it's fair to say that being determined to "embrace my time with the Gakkai" is an expression of attachment...of course, I wish you all the best. Namaste.

It looks like the dating function on the posts has gone a little skewiff . . . I got so confused!

It feels like it's been ages since I've read any posts or posted anything myself (probably only a week or two), so much good stuff posted in my absence.

I keep going back to Corboy's commuting analogy - what a long drive it is between the reality that sgi would have us buy into vs the "real" reality. Fortunately, I've been so busy at work that when I come home, I really don't feel like talking on the phone, so I haven't been speaking with my still-practicing friend as often. In a weird way, it's kind of a relief; even though she remains respectful of my wish not to talk about sgi doings, she still talks about "benefits" in hushed and reverential tones. I want to reach through the phone and shake her sometimes, and ask her why she can't see that the good things coming into her life have nothing to do with chanting, but her own human persistence. And rather than saying a simple "that's great" when something nice happens for me, she persists with that irritating "congratulations!" I didn't bring this "good fortune" into my life by chanting - I'm just working really hard and having a run of really good luck. I will get a flat tire at some point, or the flu, or break a toe . . . that's just freaking life. In a way, it's good to hear what she's saying . . . there's a real sense of relief that I no longer sound anything like that.

As to the relief about not bringing anyone into the practice, I would just feel kind of guilty if I shakubud someone and they got suckered in. I know that I would have been doing what I believed was right at the time, but at this point I'd feel that I had deceived them somehow. We all make our own choices, of course, but when sgi gets its cultish hooks into you - your choices become misinformed.

STaP - based on your last post, Senseless certainly could be a rebirth of Nichiren; " . . . and Nichiren was an intolerant bigot who wanted the government to make him a superstar." Japan was Nichiren's world, so in effect, there's little difference between him and The Round One - the latter wants to be recognized by the world. Got hubris?