Pbxguy, I am also one that thinks that JRS was no fraud, I know there are frauds on Christian television that made up their character they are playing while in college, so frauds are not stranger to Christianity, even accepted Christianity, but I do not believe that JRS was a fraud. I know for certain that he had the same character flaws as the rest of us, I mean he had his particular flaws, he was certainly human and not a bit divine. Same as us all. But he was not someone that would intentially make up something to keep the money coming in, unlike what took his place.

I think I learned a lot of stuff from JRS that is valuable today, I also think I had to weed out and forget a lot of it too. All in all, he had charisma to the max and that drew the crowds, he could have said anything he wanted to, to most of us that were there at the time, but he chose to teach what he believed to be the truth.

pbxguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had an unexpected memory the other day, probably
> triggered by recent posts.
>
> I am also one who believes that JRS was a person
> who genuinely believed what he was advocating,
> that he was not just disseminating a bunch of
> hokum for the sake of gaining tithes, based on a
> brief conversation I had with him after a service
> at the valley church. It was one of those rare
> occasions that he was walking alone, not followed
> by the usual entourage.
>
> I told him I had a great fascination with the
> occult. (Occult just means "hidden" by the way). I
> was saying that I had been reading quite a bit
> about various this's and that's in the hidden
> realm, and it seemed to me that if we were going
> to assign all this power to "the enemy" (spiritual
> warfare and all), that we ought to know as much
> about our enemy as we could, and that I also found
> everything I was learning of great interest. I
> figured he would probably schedule me for a probe
> session to cast out demons or ban me from services
> or some such thing.
>
> Instead, to my surprise, he looked at me with a
> very serious expression and told me he shared my
> deep interest and had been engaged in reading the
> same things for years. He encouraged me to keep
> reading, but said he didn't think it would be a
> very good idea to share my insights with anyone
> because it would most likely just be something
> that would rile people up, and he didn't want to
> cause any of the sheep to stumble.
>

----------------------------------------------------------------

pbxguy....I really don't know what to make of John's interest in the occult as I don't know that much about it with the exception of once having my palms read but all I remember about that were the palm reader's gasps. But I am pretty sure I remember John talking about the benefits of knowing how the occult works from the pulpit. The thing is.... like with John's messages from the pulpit about the Nephilim spirit, at the time I don't think it caused people to stumble but I think it was pretty irresponsible to tell the congregation there was a triad of Nephs in the Walk and not identify them. After that I remember a very immature elder thought God told him one of the Nephs was a young woman in the Valley church and when the woman found out she went to John and John had to straighten out the character defamation with the elder. Then the rumors started that Gruenberg was the first to figure it out that one of the Nephs was Martha. My point being is I think John's alleged Nephilim triad was was a bunch of baloney that caused division and hurt in the church and if John's insight into spiritual warfare came from studying the occult, its benefits were questionable. On the otherhand, there was a poster on Facnet named missinglink who gave an account of JRS being the only one on the planet who could provide deliverance from his or her active involvement with the occult, calling it life changing. I hope you gave up dabbling in it though.

lily rose - yes, to all you said.

My experience with the occult was pretty brief, though I've continued to read bits and pieces over the years. It's actually just another religion; spirit-based just like Christianity, and practiced in tiny pockets of the world with a different mindset toward deity attributes. Probably, my experience with it was barely thorough enough to be considered dabbling. I became bored with it and found another bone to chew.

It's possible that many of the so-called nephilim were actually those that represented obstacles to John's ambition. Of course, he would say it wasn't his ambition, but the will of God (God's ambition for his people)--that he had evolved spiritually to a level where they were one in the same (Christ in the flesh).

Speaking of palm readers, one time I had my palm read by a waitress in a Chinese restaurant and you know what? That lady told me EVERYTHING about myself, what I had done, what I was doing at the moment, probably a little about what I might do in the future, i don't think she said much about the future, but she certainly did tell EXACTLY what what had gone on and what was going on. In fact, I hate to admit it, but I have never had any pastor or elder get that precise, even those that knew me and knew people that knew me. My experience with people getting a word of knowledge or word of wisdom, well, it all has been a little vague and more than not it has not been very accurate at all. Not to say that God would not reveal stuff, I think God would do a whole lot more if Christians stopped faking it and trying to be the center stage guy with the most of the most, and try to fake it, then God would do much more than He does today.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's possible that many of the so-called nephilim
> were actually those that represented obstacles to
> John's ambition. Of course, he would say it
> wasn't his ambition, but the will of God
> (God's ambition for his people)--that he had
> evolved spiritually to a level where they were one
> in the same (Christ in the flesh).

_____________________________________________________

I think so.....the demonic forces waiteth for the manifestation of the Sons of God. If I remember correctly, John's version of the connection btwn the reappearance of the Nephilim and the Manifested Sons of God was an influx of demonic Nephilim spirits taking possession of humans who allowed them in (kind of like usurping the function of the Holy Spirit). Whereas some of today's Nephilim teaching on the Internet seems to imply the end time Nephlilim carry the physical DNA of the giants of old or are alien hybrids. I don't know why sorting this out kind of helps me other than I am able to debunk it.

Apostle Dog Wrote In Part:
> I think God would do a whole lot
> more if Christians stopped faking it and trying to
> be the center stage guy with the most of the most,
> and try to fake it, then God would do much more
> than He does today.


_________________________________________________________________

Yes to that. I watched a sound bite on TV from a guy raised as a devout Muslim but now part of the RZIM team suggest what the world would be like today if only Christians truly practiced God's message of love...in part what kBoy has been sharing...and I thought what if John with his charisma and gift for preaching and making the scriptures come alive had made that the focus of his ministry. But then I had to consider what 40yearsin2016 once posted, John was raised in the midst of the Latter Rain movement and that movement likely influenced the path John chose.

Looking back over the road chronicled by Woodrow Nichols regarding the early days of JRS, he felt there was always some special commission he was to fulfill in his life. Throw in a doctrine of 'manifested sons of God', along with just one more endtime scenario, and you have all the makings for a movement with a special dispensational focal point--a door-opener apostle.

Couple this with visions of prophets marching throughout the land, taking down principalities and powers, and you have the recipe for LOVE being lost in translation.

kBOY posted: “Looking back over the road chronicled by Woodrow Nichols regarding the early days of JRS, he felt there was always some special commission he was to fulfill in his life. Throw in a doctrine of 'manifested sons of God', along with just one more endtime scenario, and you have all the makings for a movement with a special dispensational focal point--a door-opener apostle.

Couple this with visions of prophets marching throughout the land, taking down principalities and powers, and you have the recipe for LOVE being lost in translation.”

-------------------

In the book “Who Wrote the Bible” by Richard Elliott Friedman there is an interesting theme: After taking the promised land, Israel was not satisfied with love. First they asked for a king. Then down the line a king has ambitions of building a house for the Lord. Heavy taxation on all leads to a temple being built in Jerusalem which is great for some but very inconvenient for the rest. Religious reform outlaw’s previous practices of sacrifice, worship and priesthoods which in turn leads to anarchy and ten tribes break away.

Again ----- Love being lost in translation.

Humanity's religious progression over the millenia has been a sorry tale filled with much misery, regardless of any specific tradition. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Ever since our prodigal misadventure began, there has been the futile search for some intermediary to carry the ball for us, leaving the door wide open for abuse, kingdom building, and a general disregard for those supporting the cause. It will take many lessons of hard knocks until we realize that we alone are responsible for making the return journey ourself.