SaneAgain stated...

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...Acutally the very phrase "false beliefs" is irrational, because no beliefs can be proved to be true or false; if they were proved true they would be facts and if they were proved false they wouldn't be beliefs (assuming the believer had any common sense at all).

Every post on this website is a belief then. Including yours that you have been making so strongly in a stance agianst my beliefs.

Wow. How does that work then? Your posts are your beliefs, and my posts are my beliefs. Since they are opposing? Yours get to be right as you make so many dogmatic statements about my beliefs while being dogmatic about your beliefs at the same time.

Where have your statements of science and faith not being the same been proved true at?

I will take a few days off in reading this website. I came on today to post my challenge and was overwhelmed by posts from SaneAgian wanting to be right in his beliefs while not giving the evidence in support of his statements.

It is easy to attack another by demanding things as SaneAgian is making. Without showing up with the same requirement on his own statments.

Sorry bud. I am not letting you do so here.

We are stuck, and your as stuck as me.

My challenge post to SaneAgian was going to be a fast one. Yet, I got just as stuck as SaneAgian is here.

I will take a break for a few days. I will see you all in a few days.

We may need Rick to get involved in this one.

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SaneAgain
My local Mosque is running a rehabilitation course for ex-convicts, which is funded by various groups opposing the US invasion of Iraq and the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Its an experiential seminar run over a weekend and the program is based on critical analysis of false beliefs, within a framework of the Quran. You have to sign a release form for your mental health history and do a public commitment process. I don't see any red-flags in that. I'm not an ex-convict but I think this is a great process for deprogramming from LGATs so I'm recommending it, even though if you have a look at the website, you'll see it doesn't have a single dot of information about LGATs, cults, or de-programming. The first process starts with a quote from the Quran:

"5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5.39. [b:4162103025]But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."[/b:4162103025]

(That's the quote on my group's website but sadly the site is down, so I've copied it here)

Moselm-bashers always quote the first part, but not the second: Its one of those misperceptions about Islam that I think I should correct).

The other processes involve analysing false beliefs and how they've caused your criminal tendencies and problems in your relationship and all other aspects of life, all based on the teachings of Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him). At the end we look at how we can apply our new beliefs to our spiritual growth, in the context of the Quran.

If you're not interested in this course then you're throwing the baby out with the bath water and being unbalanced. How can you reject this just because it has a Moslem tag? If you say you reject this course because it is Moslem-based then you are Moslem-bashing. You should attend this course even if you are not a Moslem because it doesn't matter that its based on the Quran, if you use critical thinking and are balanced it can still be useful to you, there is nothing suspect at all about an Islamic program to correct false beliefs, don't be ridiculous. So what if the basis of the technique is to replace false belief with Islamic beliefs.

I am not promoting my faith, I'm simply sharing with you a fantastic program on deprograming from LGATs and stating my own faith, which you don't have to share. I can tell you I've been a Moslem since 1969 and I have a personal relationship with Allah, my faith is not in a mosque but in my heart, though I do attend mosque as well. I have noticed severe Moslem-bashing on this site but I am biting my tongue. I am being very tolerant by finding some value in this site, even though it is not a Moslem site. Now you are obliged to be tolerant too and go read all my Islamic links and attend my Islamic courses, and don't criticise or question any of it because that's Moslem-bashing. I also have scientifc proof that Islam is right and scientifically based and if you dare suggest otherwise you'll have to back that up.

Please don't start a debate on Islam because I am not here to debate Islam. I am simply sharing. And if you try to argue about any aspect of this course I will accuse you of Moslem-bashing and egotistical bickering, and tell you to get yourself in check. Despite all the anti-Moslem noises being sounded off around me, I re-dedicate myself to Allah every day, that is the true meaning of Islam.

Now I am going to post this same message under seven other threads, but I'm not promoting my religion, I'm just sharing. Then after that I'll start another thread on how Quest is Anti-Islam and a few other comments here and there about how LGATs are an infidel plot to undermine the teachings of Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him).

Peace Be Upon You.


(no, I'm not really going to post on seven threads, etc... but I'm tempted.)

You definitely have sarcasm down. I will hand you that.

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SaneAgain
For the record, at the risk of repeating myself: the only reason I am objecting to the christianity here is:

1. Rswinters didn't take "no" for an answer from non-christians who don't want to attend a christian course or use the tools of the course. The tools involve replacing 'false' beliefs with christian beliefs, so its perfectly reasonable to say "thanks, but no thanks" if you're not a christian.

2. There were vague and false accusations of "severe christianity-bashing" - which is a bit too much to take when there is, on the contrary, a lot of pro-christianity posting on this site, which everyone is very tolerant of.

3. Because Rswinters refuses to have a rational debate about the implications of recommending a christian belief-altering course but insists on posting in favour of it. You can't have your cake and eat it.

4. Everyone seems to be missing the point that this is not about christianity, its about using critical thinking skills to assess a recommended course, and part of critical thinking is to acknowledge a religious bias in the course and consider the implications of that.

5. Religious evangelists of all types use various methods of conversion and covert persuasion. We could learn a lot about those techniques by studying the techniques of evangelism. Analysing those techniques is not religion-bashing, its education. Ignoring the similarity between cult / LGAT recruitment techniques and evangelism is like pretending there isn't an elephant in the room.

Rs, this is not a personal attack against you, no matter how much you may want to make it so. All I'm doing is asking you to examine your beliefs and assumptions about religion, and how they impact on you as well as other people. Be aware that people who don't share your beliefs may be offended by them. Muslems believe Jesus was a man, not a son of god. When you claim to have scientific proof of christianity you are inherently insulting Muslem belief, as well as Jewish belief, because scientific proof of christianity would imply proof that the other religions are wrong, and yours is right. I don't think it matters much if you state your beliefs, and people get offended, but then you should be open to debate, not just shut down the subject.

There are lots of aspects of christianity that I happen to agree with, by the way, and the best friend I've ever had is a christian (but not an evangelist), and is someone I would willing lay down my life for, if need be. If I wanted to bash christians it would be far easier to hit my friend over the head with a frying pan a few times, than spend my time and energy writing long posts on this site.

For the record. This is SaneAgian stating how he is right, and I am wrong.

So. SaneAgian. Why don't you accept I don't agree with you and drop it.

I will never agree with you, and you will never agree with me.

So who is keeping the focus on it agian? Look in a mirror please.

I have asked Rick to get involved. I will take a few days break and abide by Ricks decision on this matter.

See you in a few days.

It's probably time for a 'lock down' of this thread.

Emotions are running pretty hot, Rs. I think any emotionally cool person can see that you've 'chewed off more than you can eat'. So, be careful what you post because in all objectivity you (willingly or unwillingly) started this whole shebang.

To try and prove the existance of God is ridiculous. As Bertrand Russell(1) claimed, 'There is a teapot floating in orbit. If you don't believe me, then prove me wrong.'

It's quite ridiculous to use this type of logic. I mean, I could make any wild claim (little green men, loch ness monster, etc, etc) and ask you to prove me wrong by showing me that they don't exist. Just for a laugh, did you know that Elvis is still alive? No? Prove me wrong!

But seriously, I don't think anyone here is questioning your faith and the choices you make regarding your path to recovery. And I think it would be a shame (as SaneAgain also said) for you to abandon this forum. However, that is your choice, too.

[i:11e86abf55](1) I may have misquoted this, but it goes something along those lines...[/i:11e86abf55]

Rswinters, it seems you have resorted to personal attacks against me, and you have also misquoted me on a range of issues.

This is no way to have a rational discussion.

While you are waiting for the moderator, perhaps you could provide some quotes to back up the following claims that you made, before I joined in this conversation:

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I have picked up a [b:f7c7e71fc5]very strong sense of bashing any and everything called Christian on this website. [/b:f7c7e71fc5]I have been refraining from commenting in the past.

I chose to respond to this attitude that I have been picking up over the past few months in some members on this site...

I have been holding my tongue on this website over the past couple of months as a I have been reading some very strong bashing of Christianity.

[b:f7c7e71fc5]Bashing, and not critical analysis. [/b:f7c7e71fc5]Because [b:f7c7e71fc5]I can deal with critical analysis of Christianity.[/b:f7c7e71fc5] Bashing is not needed, and in my opinion is not appropriate in posts.

You did not bash Christianity, yet I responded from the past couple of months as I have read some posts that bashed Christianity and held my tongue.

Can you please provide quotes as proof of "very strong, severe christianity bashing...over several months... from some member[b:f7c7e71fc5]s [/b:f7c7e71fc5]of this site"? Note that these need to be from posts made [i:f7c7e71fc5]before[/i:f7c7e71fc5] you made these statements, in order for these statements to be valid.

False accusations of christianity-bashing (or any other religion-bashing) is a sign of religious intolerance and leads to further religious intolerance.

It is ludicrous to accuse this site of supporting christianity-bashing when your pro-christian posts have been so well tolerated.

To be sure there is no confusion on this issue, here is a definition of "bash" from dictionary.com:

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bash
–verb (used with object)
1. to strike with a crushing or smashing blow.
2. Chiefly British, Canadian. to hurl harsh verbal abuse at.

Please also note that general statements in favour of atheism or agnosticism or other religions, or general critical analysis of religion as a whole, does not constitute anti-[i:f7c7e71fc5]christianity[/i:f7c7e71fc5] sentiment. Please note the emphasis on christianity.

If you can provide the relevant quotes proving that there is christianity-bashing on this site, I will gladly admit that I am wrong on this issue.

Leaving aside the orbitting teapots - a very good comparison - I have not claimed to have proof that god does [b:f7c7e71fc5]not[/b:f7c7e71fc5] exist or even stated that god does not exist. What I have said is: there is no scientific proof of god's existence; belief in god is a matter of faith. The bible says the same thing, so I don't know why you're arguing this point. The reason faith is called faith, is because it [i:f7c7e71fc5]is[/i:f7c7e71fc5] faith.

Definition of faith from dictionary.com:

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Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Definition of science from dictionary.com:

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systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation...knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through the scientific method and concerned with the physical world and its phenomena

If you can't see the difference then perhaps we are not speaking the same language.

You have every right to post about your faith in the context of LGATs. You have been doing so for months and neither I, nor any other person, has objected.

I [i:f7c7e71fc5]have[/i:f7c7e71fc5] said:

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think it might be a nice program for people who are happily christian but not for non-christians unless they would like to be converted.

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Faith is a marvellous thing. Many people take great comfort in all kinds of different gods and beliefs - but I don't see its relevance to lgats and deprogramming and the correction of false beliefs (unless you are deprogramming from religious fundamentalist / fanatical beliefs to more mainstream religious beliefs)

I also think religious groups can help recover from lgats, as a way of getting in touch with their "old self" for people who held the same religious beliefs before the LGAT - but I don't think its a good idea for people to swop religions or take on new religions while vulnerable and trying to recover from an LGAT.

Please stop misquoting me and putting words in my mouth.

You have every right to discuss your faith in context of LGATs.

You do not have the right to make false accusations of christianity-bashing.
You do not have the right to flame me with personal insults and name calling, like "arrogant" "cynical" "must be an advocate" and "you have to be right" and insinuating that I am angry, stuck and out of check, just because I disagree with you.

You do not have the right to promote your religion by preaching about, for example, how Jesus died for your sins on the cross, which is totally off-topic, by making false claims for scientific proof of the validity of christianity and by insulting people who say they're not interested in christian courses and express viewpoints different to yours.

Is this an example of the critical thinking skills and true beliefs they teach on the Genesis Program?

You still have not responded to any of the non-religious questions I asked about this course.

You also claim this addiction recovery course should be judged by its fruits:

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I challenge you on this attitude of dismissing an organization just because it has Christian attached to it as The Genesis Process does.

Get critical, and look at the fruit, and results of what this organization is about, and is doing.

There is another addiction-recovery course called Narconon, that claims to have excellent results in addiction treatment. Its run by Scientology, using Scientology principles. Should we judge this one purely by its fruits too?

And no, I'm not suggesting christianity is a cult, or that the Genesis Program is a cult. I'm just saying that "good fruit" is not the only criteria for assessing a program.


Rs, I am happy for you that you have found a program that is helping you to recover from an LGAT. As I said before, I have no anomisity towards you, I'm only disagreeing with your ideas.

To whom it may concern:

Promoting any relgiously based program on this message board is against the rules.

I'll throw my 3 cents into this.

Generally people who are intense about their religious beliefs, don't take them as a provisional non-factual belief, they take them as Absolute Truth. As in....

"I absolutely know that there is a teapot in orbit, and its short and stout and it has a handle and a spout...and that's that".

So there is not much one can do or say about that, it seems to me.

But I personally think a healthy place to get to is to be able to be completely open to reasonable analysis of all our beliefs.

Also, any therapeutic process has to be 100% open to analysis, and rigorous criticism. It has to be a completely "open system" to allow for testing and falsification, and improvements.

For example, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is doing quite well currently. If you read the technical literature, they often begin by outlining where CBT does NOT work, and some of the criticisms of it, and deal with those. Then they move into various scientific studies, and what they might mean, and further research, etc.

The problem is if a certain group simply says that they have found The Secret direct from God, and its true because God said so in a certain book.

So any type of therapy program, needs to be done in a open, testable, scientific manner, where the results can be analyzed objectively.

In terms of psychological health, a good marker is to be able to agree to disagree, and see things from the others person's perspective, and to be able to look at it from all sides, before making a judgement call.

But from the look of things in this world, that is not near as much fun as claiming to know the Absolute Truth direct from God.

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rrmoderator
To whom it may concern:

Promoting any relgiously based program on this message board is against the rules.

Promoting it? Since when is offering a link, and stating how it helped me in my deprogramming promoting?

I gave full disclosure of this organization for all to read. SaneAgain chose to latch onto it being a faith based organization.

If this is how posts that have faith based posts with full disclosure in them. Yes, full disclosure. The link gives full disclosure on what it is, and what is in its make up.

This website may have some useful information that I have gained much from.

But, the fact that a religious stance of Faith is not Scientific, and that statements that get to be stated without allowing for their to be an allowance for both to be posted on this website.

Faith is Scientific versus Faith is not Scientific. Or which everway you want to say it...

The bottom line is this leaves this website very biased agianst anything that has to to with faith based elements.

It may be time to accept that this website in Anti-Faith on any level. While allowing for statements that attack faith is allowed to go unchecked.

It is funny how I am accused of promoting my faith, while the same promoting is going on in statements opposing faith.

Which means this website is biased agianst faith.

I broke my post that said I was going to take a break. Well, based on the responses.

I need to consider even remaining on this forum.

I may, or may not be back.

Let Freedom reign. I have the freedom to my religious beliefs.

Thank God for that regardless of this sites biased views.