SaneAgian. First off. Let me clarify for you a few points.

I am a Christian that is based on Biblical aspect of Jesus Christ dying for my sins on a cross. It is How I am a Christian, and it is how I remain a Christian.

I am not tied to anyone religion, or church. I do go to a church. But, even in that church I have disagreements with what they believe at times.

My faith is a personal relationship with my God. It is not a building, organization, or group.

SaneAgain. Second...

Your stance on how Wrong Christianity is in your posts is no different than how you are saying I am being in my posts on Christianity.

You say I am focused on Christianity and defending it. Yet your just as focused on stating out how wrong it is, and attacking it.

We have a fused debate on Christianity going on here.

Lets get of the topic of Christianity please.

I am going to take a break from this website, and come back in a few days. I hope you get yourself in check also.

I don't want to debate Christianity with you. So please lets end this debate on Christianity.

See you in a few days.

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Rswinters
SaneAgian. First off. Let me clarify for you a few points.

I am a Christian that is based on Biblical aspect of Jesus Christ dying for my sins on a cross. It is How I am a Christian, and it is how I remain a Christian.

I am not tied to anyone religion, or church. I do go to a church. But, even in that church I have disagreements with what they believe at times.

My faith is a personal relationship with my God. It is not a building, organization, or group.

I forgot to add here. I have been so since October 1976 in my life.

Okay, rs, but bear with me for one more post.

Rswinters wrote:

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Your statements in this paragraph are not accurate.

Just like your statement that there is not scientific evidence that is in support of Christianity.

Since there really is no scientific evidence in support of christianity, I take it both my statements are accurate. If you have scientific proof of christianity perhaps you could share it with the rest of the world, since that would soon put an end to all other religions, and all religious conflict.

You say the following statements are inaccurate:

* the release form (you agree there is a release form for your mental health records, this is an accurate statement and something worth questioning)

* the commitment process (listed in the course description as "Counseling Commitment Form" as part of process 1) - this is an accurate statement.

* the fact that its a seminar with group pressure (From the website: "This Work Shop is experiential. Lecture combined with small group interaction.")

*, the fact that you are handing over authority over what you think and believe to an outside agency (The course claims to remove false beliefs, and replace them with 'correct' beliefs based on christian philosophy, [i:60fb0d9c6c]as interpreted by Michael Dye[/i:60fb0d9c6c] (who, btw, also has some strange beliefs about diets based on the bible). You are being taught to think and believer according to Michael Dye rather than forming your own opinions).

* how you came to be involved in the group (were you recruited??) (This is a question, not a statement, so it can't be inaccurate)

* the fact that they use LGAT buzzwords and formula (transformation, change, integrity, FASTER, "Simple formulas and exercises your clients can apply in everyday situations" and your own statement that this is "Just the beginning")

Rswinters wrote:

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My faith is not up for debate, and I am not trying to convert anyone to Christianity here.

THis is a common evangelical tactic - fill up several pages promoting your faith, then sit back and say "its not up for debate and I'm not trying to convert anyone". By my book, when you recommend a christian program and continue to push it at people who have clearly stated they are non-christian under the guise of "it does't really matter that its christian" - that is trying to convert people.

Up to now I have tried to assume you are merely sharing something with us. But the fact is [b:60fb0d9c6c]this entire thread is completely off-topic and irrelevant to LGATs. The Genesis program is a christian addiction program.[/b:60fb0d9c6c] It has nothing to do with LGATs or deprogramming. If it is useful to you as a christian then a single link under the "Klemmer and christianity" topic would do for christians who would be interested.

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Your stance on how Wrong Christianity is in your posts is no different than how you are saying I am being in my posts on Christianity.

I have not said christianity is wrong. Please don't put words in my mouth. I have said ALL religions are faith-based, and outside the scope of science and critical thinking. That doesn't make them wrong.

I have said that religious evangelism is wrong - leave people to their own beliefs, don't try to convert them, it leads to war - historically proven if you look at the level of violence and war in the two biggest religions with evangelical elements - Islam and Christianity. Or look at the fact that by promoting christianity, you are now in a conflictual conversation with me.

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We have a fused debate on Christianity going on here.

Lets get of the topic of Christianity please.

We only have a fused debate because you are still refusing to address the problems with this group, and are continuing your tactic of making statements about your faith (promoting christianity), accusing me falsely of bashing christianity, then sitting back and saying lets change the subject.

I will not change the subject. You raised the subject, you posted a misleading topic claiming that the Genesis program is a fantastic deprogramming tool - when its not a deprogramming tool, its a christian addiction recovery program. You have made many statements about the meaning of christianity and how great your faith is - so why should I now drop the subject?

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I also want to hear what you are doing to recover also as it may help me in my recovery.

I am educating myself in the principles of rational thinking and trying to improve my relationship with reality. "Reality" is that which doesn't go away when your beliefs change. Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit has been helpful in my recovery.

The other thing I am doing to aid my recovery is to read as much as possible on conversion techniques, recruitment techniques, covert persuasion, mind control and brainwashing, so that I can understand how the LGAT manipulated me and ensure I am not manipulated in future.

I am practising thinking for myself, rather than relying on other people groups or organisations to tell me what to think and what to believe.

I am speaking up every time I see covert manipulation going on.

I am also trying to improve my sense of humour (thought that's makes it sound a bit tedious) - thanks to John Fox and his post about comparative religion:

[board.culteducation.com]

The day John posted this I was in a miserable and agitated state, very over-whelmed and despairing over the mess LGATs made of my life, and this post made me laugh so hard that it healed me more than months and months of therapy. I go back and read it when I'm having a bad day, and I consciously look for funny things on the web. I'm considering attending a course on laughing meditation.

... to return to serious things...

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am going to take a break from this website, and come back in a few days. I hope you get yourself in check also.

I am already in check. Please don't assume that because you have taken offense, I intended offense, or that I am offended. I'm not offended, I'm just disagreeing. I have not attacked your personally; I have stated my views and expressed concern over your involvement with a group. I am concerned that your christianity is blinding you to the problems of this group - as if you trust it purely [i:60fb0d9c6c]because[/i:60fb0d9c6c] it has a christian tag.

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I don't want to debate Christianity with you. So please lets end this debate on Christianity.

I haven't been debating christianity. I've been debating science vs faith. I think the reason there is a rule against promoting religious views on this board is that it leads to circular conversations where the person promoting the religion becomes dogmatic and repetitive, forcing the other person into a repetitive position.

So, let me repeat myself:

[b:60fb0d9c6c]It is not fair to promote a christian group, talk about how wonderful your faith is to you, explain what your faith is - then duck out with the statement that you don't want a debate.[/b:60fb0d9c6c]

If you really don't want a debate, and you really are not trying to promote your religion then I think we should ask the moderator to delete this whole thread, and all your links to the Genesis program, because it is off-topic and only serves to promote christianity.

You keep on making statements to the effect that I am attacking you personally, and attacking christianity. I am not. The fundamental problem is that you are unwilling to recognise the difference between faith and science. I can't argue that because its self-evident; if you claim otherwise it is a faith-based claim, and cannot be rationally debated.

You are assuming I am not religious and have no faith. Why do you assume that just because I recognise the difference between science and faith, I have no faith?

Faith is a marvellous thing. Many people take great comfort in all kinds of different gods and beliefs - but I don't see its relevance to lgats and deprogramming and the correction of false beliefs (unless you are deprogramming from religious fundamentalist / fanatical beliefs to more mainstream religious beliefs). Acutally the very phrase "false beliefs" is irrational, because no beliefs can be proved to be true or false; if they were proved true they would be facts and if they were proved false they wouldn't be beliefs (assuming the believer had any common sense at all).

So a group that claims to "correct false beliefs" is really only switching beliefs, something you've been objecting to very vociferously for the past few months. I've found those thoughts and posts of yours very insightful so I'm confused now that you seem to think its a problem if LGATs switch beliefs, but perfectly okay if christian groups switch beliefs?

I do not want to debate christianity. That's not what I come to this site for. But I am not going to stand by why you evangelise this site with off-topic christian posts, including this one (added while I was busy typing, and [i:60fb0d9c6c]after[/i:60fb0d9c6c] you asked me several times to end the debate):

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I am a Christian that is based on Biblical aspect of Jesus Christ dying for my sins on a cross. It is How I am a Christian, and it is how I remain a Christian.

I am not tied to anyone religion, or church. I do go to a church. But, even in that church I have disagreements with what they believe at times.

My faith is a personal relationship with my God. It is not a building, organization, or group.


I forgot to add here. I have been so since October 1976 in my life.

... seems you want to call a truce, but only if you have the last word, and only after you've spread the word :lol:

Rs, don't take it all so seriously, its only debate, and christianity is perfectly safe, 86% of people in the US are christian and 33% of the world population are christian (largest religion in the world, after Islam with 21%) - so I don't think my minor comments about faith vs science are going to make a dent in the christian world - similarly if you convert someone through your links, no difference, the rest of us are swamped anyway.

Rs, your posts here are great, I learn a lot from them and they're interesting, so I hope you don't go disappearing over this. I know you're not deliberately evangelising, the problem is evangelism is so engrained in your scriptues and doctrine that you do it without even noticing; it takes someone from the outside to notice and point it out, and I have no anomosity towards you over it.

As I said a few posts ago, I'm concerned that a seminar-based group that claims to challenge false beliefs is not ideal for recovering from an lgat, but if you're happy with it then I'm happy for you, and I know your intentions in posting about Genesis are good.

Now for Jack:

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When I first saw the thread I was hoping it was about the rock band, Genesis. But alas...

Honestly Jack, evangelising Genesis on a site like this when we all know the TRUE music began with Salisbury Hill, at the END of Genesis... when Peter Gabriel began his exodus ...sigh sigh sigh :roll:

Well, heck I was raised in a devout Christian family and that has never caused me to be offended in the slightest if someone wants to criticise Christianity.... to my way of thinking, and the way we were taught, true Christianity is about looking deep into oneself and sometimes painful self assessment, and above all, it is about the concept of "re-dedication"... you know your faith will falter, and you wake up each day and you re-dedicate yourself to the growth process... and real Christianity is about taking full responsibilty for yourself, your ego, in spite of whatever noises or messages are being sounded off around you.... it isn't about being petty, getting into petty little ego driven mine-versus-yours doctrinal snits... it's about fully owning who you are in real time... if someone wants to go on a diatribe about the faults of it, that's perfectly OK with me...

My local Mosque is running a rehabilitation course for ex-convicts, which is funded by various groups opposing the US invasion of Iraq and the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Its an experiential seminar run over a weekend and the program is based on critical analysis of false beliefs, within a framework of the Quran. You have to sign a release form for your mental health history and do a public commitment process. I don't see any red-flags in that. I'm not an ex-convict but I think this is a great process for deprogramming from LGATs so I'm recommending it, even though if you have a look at the website, you'll see it doesn't have a single dot of information about LGATs, cults, or de-programming. The first process starts with a quote from the Quran:

"5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5.39. [b:26b2fcebd1]But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."[/b:26b2fcebd1]

(That's the quote on my group's website but sadly the site is down, so I've copied it here)

Moselm-bashers always quote the first part, but not the second: Its one of those misperceptions about Islam that I think I should correct).

The other processes involve analysing false beliefs and how they've caused your criminal tendencies and problems in your relationship and all other aspects of life, all based on the teachings of Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him). At the end we look at how we can apply our new beliefs to our spiritual growth, in the context of the Quran.

If you're not interested in this course then you're throwing the baby out with the bath water and being unbalanced. How can you reject this just because it has a Moslem tag? If you say you reject this course because it is Moslem-based then you are Moslem-bashing. You should attend this course even if you are not a Moslem because it doesn't matter that its based on the Quran, if you use critical thinking and are balanced it can still be useful to you, there is nothing suspect at all about an Islamic program to correct false beliefs, don't be ridiculous. So what if the basis of the technique is to replace false belief with Islamic beliefs.

I am not promoting my faith, I'm simply sharing with you a fantastic program on deprograming from LGATs and stating my own faith, which you don't have to share. I can tell you I've been a Moslem since 1969 and I have a personal relationship with Allah, my faith is not in a mosque but in my heart, though I do attend mosque as well. I have noticed severe Moslem-bashing on this site but I am biting my tongue. I am being very tolerant by finding some value in this site, even though it is not a Moslem site. Now you are obliged to be tolerant too and go read all my Islamic links and attend my Islamic courses, and don't criticise or question any of it because that's Moslem-bashing. I also have scientifc proof that Islam is right and scientifically based and if you dare suggest otherwise you'll have to back that up.

Please don't start a debate on Islam because I am not here to debate Islam. I am simply sharing. And if you try to argue about any aspect of this course I will accuse you of Moslem-bashing and egotistical bickering, and tell you to get yourself in check. Despite all the anti-Moslem noises being sounded off around me, I re-dedicate myself to Allah every day, that is the true meaning of Islam.

Now I am going to post this same message under seven other threads, but I'm not promoting my religion, I'm just sharing. Then after that I'll start another thread on how Quest is Anti-Islam and a few other comments here and there about how LGATs are an infidel plot to undermine the teachings of Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him).

Peace Be Upon You.


(no, I'm not really going to post on seven threads, etc... but I'm tempted.)


For the record, at the risk of repeating myself: the only reason I am objecting to the christianity here is:

1. Rswinters didn't take "no" for an answer from non-christians who don't want to attend a christian course or use the tools of the course. The tools involve replacing 'false' beliefs with christian beliefs, so its perfectly reasonable to say "thanks, but no thanks" if you're not a christian.

2. There were vague and false accusations of "severe christianity-bashing" - which is a bit too much to take when there is, on the contrary, a lot of pro-christianity posting on this site, which everyone is very tolerant of.

3. Because Rswinters refuses to have a rational debate about the implications of recommending a christian belief-altering course but insists on posting in favour of it. You can't have your cake and eat it.

4. Everyone seems to be missing the point that this is not about christianity, its about using critical thinking skills to assess a recommended course, and part of critical thinking is to acknowledge a religious bias in the course and consider the implications of that.

5. Religious evangelists of all types use various methods of conversion and covert persuasion. We could learn a lot about those techniques by studying the techniques of evangelism. Analysing those techniques is not religion-bashing, its education. Ignoring the similarity between cult / LGAT recruitment techniques and evangelism is like pretending there isn't an elephant in the room.

Rs, this is not a personal attack against you, no matter how much you may want to make it so. All I'm doing is asking you to examine your beliefs and assumptions about religion, and how they impact on you as well as other people. Be aware that people who don't share your beliefs may be offended by them. Muslems believe Jesus was a man, not a son of god. When you claim to have scientific proof of christianity you are inherently insulting Muslem belief, as well as Jewish belief, because scientific proof of christianity would imply proof that the other religions are wrong, and yours is right. I don't think it matters much if you state your beliefs, and people get offended, but then you should be open to debate, not just shut down the subject.

There are lots of aspects of christianity that I happen to agree with, by the way, and the best friend I've ever had is a christian (but not an evangelist), and is someone I would willing lay down my life for, if need be. If I wanted to bash christians it would be far easier to hit my friend over the head with a frying pan a few times, than spend my time and energy writing long posts on this site.

When you open a can of worms...great response, SaneAgain!

BTW, Peter Gabriel has always been a great musician (still is - and a great humanitarian, too) but his work with Genesis never really bore much fruit unless you're into that theatrical, LSD kind of 60s sound (which, BTW, isn't always bad, especially with a few tokes). PG really found his voice when he went solo with tunes like Salisbury Hill, etc.

But, to stay on topic, I thoroughly agree that there is a severe limit to how much can be discussed when religion is thrown into the mix. Long live critical thinking, even if it means long periods adrift at sea with sharks circling! :shock:

I have been doing a lot of thinking over the current debate. SaneAgian is stating that I should not be allowed to discuss things that have Christian aspects as part of my posts. While stating anything containing a faith based element is promoting Christianity, and should not be allowed.

While his posts which make blanket statements that God doesn’t exist, and Christianity is not valid are made without proof, or evidence in proving God doesn’t exist.

Enough. I challenge these statements that are made in stating God doesn’t exist. Where is the evidence that supports that God doesn’t exist? There is just as much evidence out there that proves God exists, as there is showing His non-existence. This is a never ending debate in our world as one viewpoint disallows the evidence of the other to be accepted as proof.

The broken record excuse of demanding for there to be evidence first to establish proof of there being a God first. Before referencing God can be done. This demand requiring that I must prove that God exist first before I can reference God in my posts is one whopping contradiction.

Here is why, and also my challenge for SaneAgian, and anyone else. Using this very own requirement that is being placed upon me. Lets keep Rick’s guidelines for posts in view on this website. Which is supposed keep it as an unbiased website for readers to get information to make an informed decision. By requiring for things to be established by showing facts, and proof before making statements in posts.

I ask for evidence to be presented that undeniably proves that God doesn’t exist, and Christianity is not valid. Evidence that is undeniable, that will leave all who read it without any doubt. Use the same requirement as you are using for God to must be proved. Use the same measurements on both equally.

Otherwise these blanket statements declaring that Christianity is not valid, and God does not exist that are made by many on this website ongoing and continual basis which are not based on facts, or evidence. They are just opinions which are extremely biased as they are made without undeniable proof to back them up.
Where is the solid undeniable evidence that proves that God does not exist?

If you require for God’s existence to be proved? Then God’s non-existence needs to be proved as well?

You can’t ask for proof of Gods existence and disallow any posts that reference God. While at the same time making posts that declare God doesn’t exist without proof as well.

I am not telling no one to believe in God, and I am not trying to convert anyone in my posts. All I am after is to have the right to share in reference to God, and faith based issues without having to prove God’s existence when posts are made stating that God doesn’t exist without proving this statement as well.

There is much evidence that shows both aspects in our world. There is evidence of both, and there is much debate in our world on this matter.

Personally, I feel there needs to be the freedom to speak from both aspects for a free society to be free and unbiased.

It is up to each individual to decide what they believe.

SaneAgian. You really like to debate, and be right don't you. It also seems you like show up being what you condem in others.

Show the proof that God doesn't exist so that all the religions of the world will be proved wrong.

How about stop demanding for proof of God, and show up with the proof that God doesn't exist then.

Are you and advocate in profession? It seems you like to demolish any opposition to your views by completely making the other side prove stuff, while claiming and declaring things that you do not have to do the same with.

Critical thinking, and analysis is one thing. Being cynical, and arrogant is another.

Okay SaneAgain. So what I am hearing from you so overwhelmingly in your posts is you want to be right in your views. While making me wrong in mine.

You want me to show proof, while you can make blanket statements by saying them with such force that you hide from needing to show the proof of your statements as well.

You make blanket comments of what you say my posts are saying while failing to see what your posts are saying.

Show up with what you are demanding from me please.

Undeniable proof that Christianity is invalid, and that Faith is not science.

There is much to show scientifically for both.

So who gets to be right? You? Me?

If you need to be right in your mind? I will let you and remove myself from this website as I will be shown that it is a biased site that selects what scientific proof it looks at by disregarding equal scientific proof that is out thier on this faith issue.

Stop the broken record of faith is not science, and visa versa.

I came on today to post the one post, and could not believe the dogmatic posts of yours that is showing up doing the very same thing as you are saying I am doing.

Look in a mirror bud.