I am a Christian and there are many on this website that are not. I have gained much from many that are not Christian in their posts that I have gained much from in helping me heal from my 2 year LGAT bunny trail that I went on in it as I let this LGAT philosophy destroy my life.

Now I found a tool that is helping me deal with addressing the false beliefs about things in me that set me up to be so decieved by a garbage New Age philosophy.

So, why be so quick to write off a tool that is being used very sucessfully in our society to bring people out of deep addictions such as drugs, and alcohol to live healthy recovered lives in our society. Becoming people who contribute to society, versus being a drain on it.

Do your own research on the results of this organization and how it helps those severly addicted in our society become free.

Why would it be so easy to dismiss this organization just because they have a Christian label on it.

I have not dismissed this site because it is not Christian. I am one, but I am still gaining much from this site.

I challenge you on this attitude of dismissing an organization just because it has Christian attached to it as The Genesis Process does.

Get critical, and look at the fruit, and results of what this organization is about, and is doing.

Just a challenge for you to think on.

I'm not questioning YOUR faith. Each to their own. My response was only to state that something like the Genesis Process would be of little interest to me.

I can't see much difference between the claims of this Christian organisation and many of the LGATs we are discussing here. I can accept that their agenda is to try and sincerely help those trying to deal with cult programming, but I can't help thinking that it's just another form of programming albeit much more cost effective.

False belief is the carrot many of these pseudo-psychological organisations dangle to entice and persuade. Obviously I haven't done the neccessary research yet to determine the 'facts' of GP, but I'll chose to suspend judgement of their agenda until I do.

Rswinters, I was not attacking you, so please refrain from questioning my stance. First of all, I don't think it is healthy to generalise with statements such as 'garbage New Age philosophy'. Yeah, we can list many that fall within this description, but to make such generalisations cannot be healthy when we're trying to understand the nature of our 'false beliefs'.

Secondly, and perhaps I've already answered this, but I'm only 'writing off' this new tool (ie GP) because of its Christian focus (and I'll state again that this is only personal). And by your claim that I'm dismissing any further research into this organisation is false - I'll be doing plenty more reading!

Perhaps there is an underlining tone to my responses to your posts because your tone is a little scary. I truly hope that you find some clarity and strength with this organisation, but, as you said, let's get our critical thinking caps on and talk about it.

Sounded good to me, anyway.

I reread my first post. I did come across as attacking you. Didn't I?

I am sorry for that. I have been holding my tongue on this website over the past couple of months as a I have been reading some very strong bashing of Christianity.

Bashing, and not critical analysis. Because I can deal with critical analysis of Christianity. Bashing is not needed, and in my opinion is not appropriate in posts.

You did not bash Christianity, yet I responded from the past couple of months as I have read some posts that bashed Christianity and held my tongue.

So, I am man enough to admit. I over reacted to your post.

Rswinters wrote:

Quote

I have been reading some very strong bashing of Christianity...
I have read some posts that bashed Christianity and held my tongue

I haven't seen any posts under this topic (large group awareness training) bashing christianity. On the contrary, I have seen several posts promoting it, including this new topic that you have created. Your first post under this topic promotes the genesis program without explicitly mentioning that it is a christian group; considering there are many non-christians here, including for example muslems and jews and atheists, I think it would be polite to mention christian bias up-front.

You said:

Quote

The Genesis Process doesn't confront my belief systems with a shock and awe that overwhelms me to accept the new age philosophy without critical analysis of what is going on in the process.

This is all about critical thinking, and critical analysis of my belief systems in me. It is all about looking at why they are there, and why I have them in the first place.

It is not brainwashing me by switching out my belief systems for another one that a company wants me to buy into.

The group cannot claim to practice pure critical thinking if it is a christian group. That is a contradiction in terms. Christianity is a belief system itself, so they are quite surely switching out people's belief systems for christianity. This might not bother you if you are already a christian, but it sure is a belief-switching system for people who are not!

There is also the possibility that your christian beliefs are false beliefs (certainly jews and muslems would say so) and that your christian beliefs made you ripe for the picking by klemmer. Perhaps your christian beliefs need to be examined, critically and analytically. I am not bashing christianity, I am just saying it is a religion and a belief system like any other. It is also faith-based, just as new-age beliefs are faith-based (ie working outside the constraints of scientific proof).
You said

Quote

Why would it be so easy to dismiss this organization just because they have a Christian label on it.

I have not dismissed this site because it is not Christian. I am one, but I am still gaining much from this site.

I think we need to be careful to distinguish between scientific, critical thinking, which is independent of religious beliefs and based on scientific evidence and method, and different types of religious beliefs which are based on faith (ie cannot be scientifically proved).

This site does not favour any religion, it aims to be religiously neutral and offer education about cults. Rick Ross is Jewish but this site is not about Judaism. The fact you find the site helpful has nothing to do with tolerating other religions, it has to do with appreciating rational, critical, scientific thinking. The fact you gain value from non-religious material does not mean that people with different religious views will gain value from your specific religion. Its not a valid comparison.

Would you attend a course designed to fix your false beliefs if that course was run by Muslems, and had quotes from the Quran over its website? I very much doubt it, you would immediately see that the organisation was out to swop your current beliefs for Islam.

I appreciate that your intention is merely to share useful deprogamming tools but I'm concerned about this group and I'm afraid you may be going from the pot into the frying pan. You are talking about this new seminar being

Quote

just the beginning of the rest of my life.

as if it has the answers to everything. I think this is a big red flag, when something claims to have an answer to everything, and is produced in a seminar, where the first one is free and the rest cost money. I think a big hook of cults is that they take advantage of people wanting an answer to "everything" and something that explains the whole meaning of life. But maybe there is no system that does that, and trying to force the complexity and diversity of life into a single system with a set of rules is a mistake in itself.

Some of the information about how the brain works is useful, but I can't help noticing its the same model used by Quest - they explain how your brain works, how it the limbic system gets programmed and how to undo that programming so that you can be "free" - of course "free" isn't really "free", its just re-programmed to quest beliefs. They might not be a corporation but they are still selling something - christianity. Of the three major world religions christianity has the biggest history of envagelism and recruitment; in fact many lgat recruitment and conversion techniques were taken from christian conversion methods.

I think you need to tread very carefully, Rs. If they are also doing group-type therapy and using techniques of belief manipulation you could be in hot water. I know they say they apply critical thinking but the fact is if you follow true critical thinking to its logical conclusion all religious beliefs break down, because religion is a matter of faith (belief) not science and critical thinking.

A few weeks ago you wrote that you are a biblical christian, now it seems you have been recruited by a christian group. Being in a seminar you set yourself in a position where other people tell you what to think and believe, and you are subject to group pressure while you are there. Some of the courses are free - this implies that there are volunteer staff involved. The course leader no doubt makes a good living out of his work, but do the volunteers? How long before you will be expected to volunteer? In my opinion when a person is trying to deprogram from a cult the last thing to do is join any kind of group with pre-set beliefs; rather I think its better to take time out and sort out your beliefs in your own mind, without opening yourself up to outside influence from people who have their own agendas.

I think it might be a nice program for people who are happily christian but not for non-christians unless they would like to be converted.

I would suggest that people never sign documents to release confidential mental health or medical records to any type of independent organization. If a person is seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist for treatment, then they are able to access the medical records through the proper channels.
But releasing that type of extremely personal information to any sort of "seminar" is an extremely bad idea.
What happens to these records in the future?
What if the organization changes hands, who gets the records 10 years from now?

Critical Thinking forces any organization to criticize its own weaknesses, so it would be useful to see some criticism and analysis of this particular group as well.
I would also agree that the metaphor of the "frying pan to the fire" be considered.
We have to be very cautious about these "conversion" experiences, some people are very suspect to them.

Quote
Rswinters
These are medical release forms that need to be signed to get mental health records from professional psychologists to help in understanding a persons background.

This is not release forms for the organization to be released from anything. It is forms needed legally to get confidential information that is illegal to get with out a release of information form signed.

Thats what is the release form.

Here's an interesting link to a site about the dangers of evangelism:

[www.crusadewatch.org]

There's an article about how aspects of religion can be an addiction, by a christian woman:

[www.crusadewatch.org]

And an expanded version of the Dick Sutphen article on mind control article:

[www.crusadewatch.org]

various articles on conversion methods:

[www.crusadewatch.org]

I'm not saying this group is evangelical or fundamentalist, on the contrary it sounds like they do good work with addicts, but I think that when the support of an lgat is taken away we might be more vulnerable to other groups, and should be alert to that (I speak for myself as well here).

About the crusadewatch website:

Quote

We are a group of individuals deeply hurt by the atrocities committed in the name of Proselytisation or Evangelism. We sincerely believe in religious liberty and freedom and we are staunchly against every act of intolerance perpetrated by some groups claiming to be an order from their god.

Are we against Christianity? This is one of the questions we are frequently asked.

NO! we are not for or against any religion. We believe that every person has right to believe or not believe in any religion. We believe in freedom of thought. WE ARE AGAINST VIOLENCE IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. Some of our strongest supporters are Christians who are pained by the activities conducted in the name of their religion...

Civilized World has taken a serious note of Jihadi Islam. Though evangelical christians committed the some of the worst crimes unfolded in history, but escape the dragnet due to their excellent public relations skills.

Its an interesting site in general for information about methods of mind control, recruitment and conversion.

Some other worrying features about this group, in common with lgats are:
- seminar takes place in controlled environment
- commitment process
- claims for healing and radical change
- ...but only if you really want to change (not their responsibility if it doesn't work).

Rs, may I ask, how did you become involved in this group?

Quote
SaneAgain
The group cannot claim to practice pure critical thinking if it is a christian group. That is a contradiction in terms. Christianity is a belief system itself, so they are quite surely switching out people's belief systems for christianity. This might not bother you if you are already a christian, but it sure is a belief-switching system for people who are not!

What is your basis for this statement? Do you know this is the case without doubt?

I told you folks that I am not debating Christianity here. I am not telling people what to believe, or not believe.

I am not going to engage in defending this Group, or my faith.

So if you want to talk about the aspects of how this helps someone who wants to use this tool to deal with deprogramming then I will share about that aspect.

This is where society has miss labeled biblical Christianity. It is not my job to debate faith with anyone. If God is God. Let Him reveal Himself to a person.

He has to me, and all I am trying to do is live out my biblical faith the best way I can in being a person making a difference in our world.

What other people choose to believe doesn't mean I can't work with, deal with, or even expose LGAT's with.

So, to lay something to rest here.

I will not debate Christianity with anyone on this website. I will talk about LGAT's, Mental and emotional health, and relational health. I will at times share about my faith, but it is my faith not yours.

I read respectfully the the Christian bashing that is beginning to start here. I will disengage it.

So, please critically analyze this organization for what it is doing, and the tools, and methods being used.

Which all are in full disclosure for all to read, see, and ask about without being deceived into paying all kinds of money to and is not focused on getting rich.

They are about sitting addicted people free, and it has the track record of verifiable results to prove it.

This website is a very good website. But sometimes critical thinking can go to far in being critical.

I prefer to find a balance.