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SaneAgain
There is also the possibility that your christian beliefs are false beliefs (certainly jews and muslems would say so) and that your christian beliefs made you ripe for the picking by klemmer. Perhaps your christian beliefs need to be examined, critically and analytically. I am not bashing christianity, I am just saying it is a religion and a belief system like any other. It is also faith-based, just as new-age beliefs are faith-based (ie working outside the constraints of scientific proof).

The bashing comes from a stance that is coming out in this quote. What is making your view here the right one?

I have been reading, and posting on this site for several months and have read many posts that have held this quotes arrogance of standing on an opinion of what defines Christian belief.

I don't bash this stance, and I am not trying to bash it now. All I am saying is Christianity, and faith in God is off the topic of what is the intent of my posts here.

This website is not a site based on Christianity, yet I am able to gain much from it. Why is it such a reach to say that there can be stuff gained from a faith based organization without it being what you are wanting to believe in your posts.

This is an never ending debate about faith. One of which I don't want to engage with this website.

Can we please get on topic of exposing LGAT's and helping those who have been destroyed by LGAT's in their lives.

Or do you want to be so critical on everything that all we do is be critical and not help heal those who have been hurt by LGAT's.

I am one who has been hurt by them, and want healing from it. I am sharing what I am finding that is helping me heal.

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SaneAgain
Rs, may I ask, how did you become involved in this group?

This is a good question, and over the next couple of months. I will answer this question.

For now, I am a little overwhelmed with addressing the gaping emotional wounds that I have never dealt with in my 44 years of life.

I have a few current ones that are being dealt with in professional counseling.

So. Please give me a little grace by waiting tell I get a better mental, and emotional grip on my healing that is going on in my life.

There are some very deep area's that are getting cleaned out emotionally from past childhood trauma.

In time, I will share. Please allow me to digest the healing taking place currently though.

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The Anticult
But releasing that type of extremely personal information to any sort of "seminar" is an extremely bad idea.
What happens to these records in the future?
What if the organization changes hands, who gets the records 10 years from now?

Critical Thinking forces any organization to criticize its own weaknesses, so it would be useful to see some criticism and analysis of this particular group as well.

Maybe I posted this organization on the wrong topic thread. This is not an LGAT. It is an organization dealing with helping people who are severely addicted to drugs, and alcohol.

I am finding the tools of this organization to be helpful in my recovery from my LGAT experience.

This organization is very accountable in all the ways that Rick says a organization needs to be. This organization is working with the Mental health industry of our nation not to get rich from seminars. They are working with this organization to help their patients get healthy and walk in recovery.

I choose not to be so arrogant that I will not recognize my own emotional, and mental unhealth and seek help when needed.

I have the desire to be healthy in my life, and in some area's I lack the ability to do so. Which is where I am finding much help from this organization and how they work with addicts.

No one else has to choose so. I just want to let you know how it is helping me.

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SaneAgain
I'm not saying this group is evangelical or fundamentalist, on the contrary it sounds like they do good work with addicts, but I think that when the support of an lgat is taken away we might be more vulnerable to other groups, and should be alert to that (I speak for myself as well here).

Do you not see how in your anger over LGAT's that this website is full of evangelists who are trying to expose the deception of LGAT's for the messed up garbage in them?

Why do we as a society take words that are in themselves not bad words and place meaning, and judgement on them that blinds us to our doing what we oppose?

Maybe we need to ask deeper questions like. Is being evangelistic bad? I don't think it is. I think being evangelistic is good when trying to expose deceptions and lies.

Do I need to be careful in being so? You bet.

I have had to evaluate myself, and be very critical about myself as I have been very dogmatic in exposing Klemmer & Associates, and then discovering how all LGAT's are carbon copies and then stepped into being dogmatic in exposing LGAT's as a whole.

What I found as I took this introspective look was how I was becoming what I was attacking. I was not seeing my anger, and resentment and how it was driving many of my posts.

Now that I am aware of this. I am working on finding a balance to continue to expose the LGAT's as I have been doing. But I am wanting to do it in a emotionally healthy way that I don't become this ugly person that I don't want to become.

In my anger, and pain from the destruction from Klemmer in my life. I was letting myself become obsessed by my resentment.

I am on the healing path in my life, and I want to share the information that is helping me do so. Just as much as I want to expose LGAT's still.

Just with a balance.

1. Your previous post stated that there has been severe bashing of christianity on this site. That is blatantly untrue. There is also no bashing in anything I said.

2. You have promoted a christian program on 7 different threads that I can count, including a new thread entirely devoted to the program, that does not explicityly state up front that it is christian program. You have also started another explicitly christian thread on Klemmer, and you have mentioned your christian beliefs in several other un-related posts. You have criticised another board member for stating that christianity doesn't appeal to him. You claim its not a problem that the program is christian - so what are you saying, that Jews and Moslems should attend a christian cult de-programming course?? I'm not asking you to defend your religion, I'm asking you to quit promoting it. Saying that you're not promoting it doesn't undo the fact that you keep posting about christianity, and promoting a christian group - then getting defensive and accusing others of christianity bashing if they object or disagree.

3. I am warning you that churches like to prey on the vulnerable, as much as lgats do. The program you are promoting uses thought reform methodology, runs a group seminar over a weekend, requires a release of private medical information and has a commitment process. Those are big alarm bells, what is blinding you to looking at them?

4. I don't see how pointing out that all religions are belief systems, that should be critically examined, is bashing christianity. By claiming that is victim bashing you automatically imply that only your beliefs are true. Evangelism is a big part of most forms of christianity, so that may make the whole recruitment process easier for christians to buy into, for example. I don't know, I'm guessing, but there is no harm examining how your religious beliefs may have contributed to you getting into Klemmer.

6. I am warning you of the dangers of all kinds of evangelism, not only christian evangelism. You don't have to be an evangelist to be a christian and evangelism is an insult to many christians. That's what the site I gave links to is about. It is not about christianity bashing. Its about the dangers of evangelism. I would be saying all the same things and giving the same links if you were telling us you'd been on a Hindu seminar on removing false beliefs by critical thinking.

7. Have a look at all the other cults on this site. Most of them religious. Religious evangelism is on topic, particularly when it preys on cult victims trying to recover from one cult, only to indoctrinate them into another. There is also a big teen help industry that uses a combination of christianity and cult techniques to combat drug abuse in teenagers. Its worth looking into and finding out whether your group has any connections with this. That doesn't mean christianity is bad or wrong, only that there are groups out there who exploit it, and you need to watch out for them.

8. Do you honestly not see the logical contradiction of a religious organisation running seminars on critical thinking?

I know you're hurt by your experience and trying to recover, and that you are sharing something that is helping you. But I would not be a good friend (even if you don't consider me one) if I watched you jump blindly into another group that may not have your best interests at heart. I DID read the information about their techniques and I'm not seeing anything new there that I wasn't told at Quest, only different words and different formulas.

The point is - its a formula!!! Have you not had enough trouble in your life from groups claiming to provide all the answers to life in a seminar with a formula?

The fact they don't charge a huge amount is irrelevant, the church industry is very lucrative and they make most of their money from donations, so they effectively make money by getting more and more recruits.

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This is where society has miss labeled biblical Christianity. It is not my job to debate faith with anyone. If God is God. Let Him reveal Himself to a person.

He has to me, and all I am trying to do is live out my biblical faith the best way I can in being a person making a difference in our world.

...I will not debate Christianity with anyone on this website. I will talk about LGAT's, Mental and emotional health, and relational health. I will at times share about my faith, but it is my faith not yours.

You say you won't debate christianity but you will continue to share about your faith. In other words, you can post as much as you like about christianity (even though its against the rules of the board to promote religious viewpoints), but nobody must debate you or disagree with you?

The way I see it, if you want to post about your faith then you have to accept that people might disagree with you, and not resort to accusations of christianity-bashing. You also can't ask for a period of grace because you are having problems, then in the next breath continue to promote your faith.

Evangelism orginally meant "promoting the gospel" ie christianity. It has been extended to include promoting any religion, or any cause (lgats themselves are evangelical). Exposing the lies and deceptions of lgats is not promoting a cause, its just exposing a problem and that is not the same thing. Its not telling anyone what to think or believe.


From the Genesis website (testimonials page):

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Hey mike, just wanted to say how awesome the newest books are! We have taken this into the prison and lenny is teaching Change Book #1 and I am teaching #2. Mike to watch the transformation happening in these guys lives is awesome. only thing we do is show up and GOD does the rest. A couple of weeks or so ago Mike we had 7 guys accept CHRIST right in the middle of the process. This process really works. A lot of these guys have been in and out of prison so much and they are just now understanding why they keep returning to their old behaviors. GOD has really used you to come up with an awesome process.

If that's not promoting a religious viewpoint I'm a giraffe. And if its not LGAT-speak I'm a Hedgehog.

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SaneAgain
I'm not asking you to defend your religion, I'm asking you to quit promoting it. Saying that you're not promoting it doesn't undo the fact that you keep posting about christianity, and promoting a christian group - then getting defensive and accusing others of christianity bashing if they object or disagree.

This opposition towards either stance is what I am calling bashing.

I will look at my bashing those opposed to a christian view, and I ask you to look at your opposition to a christian view as bashing.

Can we get back to exposing LGAT's. I have not been attacking your views that oppose a Christian view in the past. I have allowed myself to be drawn into this debate on this subject.

This is not the subject that I am exposing on this site, It is LGAT's and if you don't want to allow for a opposing view of your views on Christianity by allowing me to post my views on it while reading your views agianst.

Then this is not the impartial site I felt it was.

So. Can we please drop the subject of wether a Christian view is valid or not.

That is not the subject. It is LGATs and in this topic thread it is getting deprogrammed from them.

I can keep them seperate. Can you?

I am on a site where a majority don't hold my views on faith. I am okay with that. I am not okay with having my faith attacked on a personal level.

I have made a point to not attack those who oppose my views. When I have failed and done so. I have looked at this in me, and accepted my failing in this.

So please back off of the topic of Christianity, and lets focus on LGAT's and deprogramming.

Who cares the organization is backed by. Faith based, or not.

SaneAgain. Please lets end this debate on a faith issue.

This is not the topic here. Please stop making it so.

This site has a rule against promoting religious views.

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The purpose of this forum is not to promote a specific religious or political viewpoint and/or to proselytize.

It does not have a rule against pointing out the religious bias in a group that someone is promoting, or pointing out that its highly ironic for a religious organisation to teach critical thinking, or pointing out that a christian rehabilitation process will not be very useful for non-christians.

I am willing to ignore occassional relevant references to christianity or any other religion, as I have been doing for several months, but today's blitz across seven threads was too much to ignore, and your comment that it doesn't matter if a group is christian is also too much to ignore. [b:4cbac543f8]You would not say "who cares what the organisation is backed by" if it was a Muslem organisation, or a Satanic group!!! [/b:4cbac543f8]

I have never attacked christianity or any other religion on this site. I have also not attacked you personally. All I've ever said is that faith lies outside the scope of science and reason, which is true by definition of what faith and religion are. The only comment I've ever made about christianity before today was something historical, about the christian crusades - an historical fact that was relevant to the topic. The Dick Sutphen article I referred to is also in the Rick Ross library, and describes the roots of certain conversion techniques in 18th century christian revivalism.

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Conversion is a "nice" word for Brainwashing...and any study of brainwashing has to begin with a study of Christian revivalism in eighteenth century America. Apparently, Jonathan Edwards accidentally discovered the techniques during a religious crusade in 1735 in Northampton, Massachusetts. By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the "sinners" attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit. Technically, what Edwards was doing was creating conditions that wipe the brain slate clean so that the mind accepts new programming. He would tell those attending, "You're a sinner! You're destined for hell!"

That's the same "pressure-release" technique described in the book "Snapping" by Flo Conway. I don't particularly care that it was a christian technique, its just an interesting historical and social fact, relevant to the topic of LGAT techniques.


I am trying to discuss LGATs and deprogramming, but you are ignoring all my objections to this group that are not related to christianity - like the release form, the commitment process, the fact that its a seminar with group pressure, the fact that you are handing over authority over what you think and believe to an outside agency, how you came to be involved in the group (were you recruited??), the fact that they use LGAT buzzwords and formula - you've not answered any of those questions; you've chosen to focus on the christian aspects.

I am taking the trouble to write all this because I am WORRIED ABOUT YOU, mostly, and also because I'm worried about other people being put off this site if they see too much christian bias on it.

How can a discussion about Christianity on this thread be off topic when it is titled, 'The Genesis Process is a fantastic deprogramming from LGATs'?

When I first saw the thread I was hoping it was about the rock band, Genesis. But alas...

Long live the spirit of the debate!

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SaneAgain
I am trying to discuss LGATs and deprogramming, but you are ignoring all my objections to this group that are not related to christianity - like the release form, the commitment process, the fact that its a seminar with group pressure, the fact that you are handing over authority over what you think and believe to an outside agency, how you came to be involved in the group (were you recruited??), the fact that they use LGAT buzzwords and formula - you've not answered any of those questions; you've chosen to focus on the christian aspects.

As well as I am here...

Your statements in this paragraph are not accurate.

Just like your statement that there is not scientific evidence that is in support of Christianity. There is much that could be debated here on Christianity.

I did not join this website to do so. My faith is not up for debate, and I am not trying to convert anyone to Christianity here.

I am able to embrace things such as this website that are not faith based and gain much.

I am sorry you are not able to embrace a faith based organization and gain things from them.

That is your choice. I choose to do so.

So lets agree to disagree on Christianity. But not throw the baby out with the bath water in doing so.

We can still agree on exposing LGAT's, and we can still agree that there needs to be help with being deprogrammed from them.

Some may choose a faith based organization such as this topic thread one. While some may choose others that are not faith based.

Who cares. As long as LGAT's are being exposed, and people are rovering from LGAT's and regaining healthy lives in our society.

If there needs to be the need to turn this into a debate where this focus is not the focus. My purpose of being on this site is done then.

I will never share in a way that expects people to have to embrace Christianity. I will share how it impacts my life, and what I am finding that helps me with exposing LGAT's and being deprogrammed from it though.

What you and anyone else does with it. That is your freedom to choose.

I also want to hear what you are doing to recover also as it may help me in my recovery.

My faith is not part of what is open for debate with me is all I am stating here.

So if you want to debate Christianity with someone? I refuse to be that person. I will not debate it as we have been doing.

On that note. I respect your choice not to have a faith in God, and I ask to be respected in being allowed to have a faith in God.