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question lady

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Rswinters
We covered Neurochemistry and how it affects brain by looking at some scientific data on brain chemistry.

For me the part that stood out was the aspect of Serotonin and how it affects the brain chemistry and what emotions are affected by this chemical.

What was brought up and really hit me in this part of the training. Serotonin is a chemical that is released in the brain to suppress emotions.

I have to say RS that the statment about serotonin struck me as odd also. Like Elena, I have never heard that serotonin supresses emotions.

Does this program have an anti-medication bias?

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elena

RS,

I have never heard anyone of any professional standing suggest that serotonin is a chemical that is released in the brain to suppress emotions. I think I can safely say no one with any education in psychology or psychiatry or neuro-psycho-immunology or psycho-pharmacology would make such a claim. They would use words more like "moderate" or "regulate" or "elevate." Are you sure this is what they said? Quite the contrary, low serotonin levels have been linked with enhanced "negative" emotions like aggression and rage. Please re-examine what you've written here. If that is what they are teaching, they have no business even pretending they are educating people.


Ellen

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Serotonin is a chemical that is released in the brain to suppress emotions.

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SaneAgain
Hi elena / rsw / anyone else,

Do you have any links to articles on how the actual processes used in these trainings affect brain chemistry or other physical / biological effects?

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-25-2007 10:31 PM Post subject:

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Rs, these are great posts, thanks. I like the way you think through things.

I agree with you that its the wrong question - who will have a good experience and who will have a bad one. It takes away a person's mental freedom either way, so why even bother? I'd rather be a flawed and faulty person of my own design that is 'me', than a perfect happy love peace joy robot created by a seminar.

But it IS a good question because of faulty thinking around it, like I had. Before I did inquest I heard a story about someone who did inquest then went into a bad depression for about two years. Someone was trying to warn me not to do it. And stupid me - I thought - well obviously that person was depressed to start with, and I'm not, so I'll just go ahead and do Inquest.

Big Mistake.

I've read every article i can lay hands on to do with severe problems after lgat training, like psychosis, panic attacks requiring hospitalizations, suicide, and general nervous breakdown.

In most of them around about 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 out of those who had a severe bad reaction had a pre-exiting problem like history of anxiety / depression, bipolar disorder, childhood abuse or history of LSD use. The rest - NOTHING.

So the point is:

There is no way of knowing who will have a good experience and who will have a bad one. Nobody knows. The risk is there for everyone. If you have a history of psychological problems its a really really bad idea. If you don't have a history of problems its still a really really bad idea.

I only raise other possible explanations to get out of this mindset of 'the person who had a bad experience must have been messed up to start with".

As long as the seminars and the general medical establishment make out that people who are damaged by lgats must have had something wrong to start with, there will not be proper research into lgats and their effects and proper treatment of the victims. Its good to acknowledge that it is damaging for people who are unstable in some way, but there is far more to it. It is actually a deliberately implemented recipe for creating mental health disasters, in all types of people. The processes are too severe, too subject to chaotic elements, like what kind of people end up in each group, and too open to abuse by trainers who have absolute power in the training room and inspire god-like devotion in their followers.

And Rswinters I agee with you, there is also the ethical side where its questionable to take part in something at all, if you know it is damaging people. And thanks for this too, I hadn't thought about it:

Quote Rswinters:

"Some are left unharmed and full of self realizations that help while others are hurt by others in seminars who get there self realizations at others expense emotionally. "

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-26-2007 12:43 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgian.

I have really been taking myself on since my atomic destruction that erupted in my life from Klemmer philosophy application upon my life.

Unfortunately. I am not able to come from a place of being healthy emotionally going in.

I do have extreme abuse and trauma in my childhood. As my soon to be ex-wife has also in her past.

So it was very hard not to buy into the mindset that Klemmer teaches in their LGAT philosophy of we are each at cause for what happens to us.

I am currently dealing with a situation of needing to have no contact with my mother who lives less than a mile from me. She chose as a 62 year old adult to dominate and control a verbal disagreement with her 44 year old adult son standing in her kitchen while she was standing outside the screen door with a hose in her hand watering plants. She chose to threaten to blast me in face with hose, and then commenced in doing so.

It was a very humiliating, and abusive thing to be done to me by my mother.

I am in no contact with her since July 5th when this was done. I have been working it out in professional counseling and have much to sort out from the past with her.

I will not go into details on this. But I will say that at the beginning of my Klemmer experience. I was in a place where I was having no contact with my mother and trying to sort out the mess in counseling with same therapist.

Along came Klemmer and wowed me. I went into a period of denial of how my mothers behavior was, and chose to ignore things being done by her.

It was a nice bandaid that temporarily anesthetized the emotional pain with my mother. While I did not exist in a relationship with my mother that existed on her terms and her terms only.

I remarried a women from Klemmers influence who was a spitting image of my mother in how she treated me. I agian put on the Klemmer blinders to the truth of things.

I will edit out the details that make it able to be connected to people. But I will post the letter that I just wrote to my mother after 2 months working on it in therapy.

It is a little off subject. But it is where I was at emotionally that turned on the magnetic pull to an LGAT mindset with the promise of relational bliss at the end of the rainbow.

Well, that pot of gold turned into a pot of old decaying bones for me.

And I see for many others on this website.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-26-2007 12:47 AM Post subject:

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August 23, 2007
Dear Mom,
I have been working on a response to your voicemail left on July 5th requesting a joint session with my counselor. I will set one in time, and will let you know when we will meet. I would like to be the initiator in this process. I also want to acknowledge that I have received your emails sent on August 10, and 13th.
I have been struggling with how you have failed to accept responsibility for losing control of your anger. As a 62 year old adult, you chose to blast me in the face with water from a hose in an attempt to dominate and control while having a verbal disagreement. I believe you are not even aware how abusive and degrading this behavior was toward me.
This hose situation is indicative of how we have related with each other during our whole life. I can no longer tolerate this dynamic between us. There have been many other disagreements in the past that have left me feeling emotionally blasted in my face. There are too many to count, or even explain to you here. It has been this way for me (in one degree or another) my whole life.
Mom, I am choosing to no longer let our pain-driven dynamic control me. It is emotional territory that I don’t want to walk into anymore. I have full right to claim territory of my own right now… to look at it, to break it down, and to work through it.
I will let you know when I am ready to meet with you. Until then, I would appreciate having some space. Space to me looks like… no emails, no phone calls, and no personal contact or third party contacts for at least 6 months. At the end of this 6 month period you can call my therapist XXXXXX at XXX-XXX-XXXX Extension #X. He has agreed to mediate our reconciliation should you choose that. He will be able to arrange scheduling and a payment schedule at that time.
Your son,
XXX

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-26-2007 01:00 AM Post subject:

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I posted this letter that just mailed to my mother this week. I live less than a mile from her and have much emotional work to do in my life in the near future.

Yet this has been posted in an attempt to help expose LGAT's for the messed up aspects of how they influence their participants to interact.

There is no in depth evaluation of where people are at emotionally. There is an assumption that participants are not seeing themselves at cause for things in their lives.

In my case as I am sorting out in therapy. I have taken on way to much of being at cause in my life.

I have never had the relational template that most learn from their family dynamics in how to relate emotionally to people.

Can you even imagine how difficult it is to sort through the emotional mess of facing that my mother is abusive, and is unsafe for me to be connected too in my life. Especially while she refuses to take responsibility for how abusive her behavior is towards me as her 44 year old son.

I am going on my third divorce. The second one is the same as the third one thanks to Klemmers influencing me to remarry a women who is a carbon copy of my mother in how she treats me relationally.

But, that is what Klemmer refuses to be accountable with.

I would never have remarried her without Klemmers influence upon me.

I was a mark big time for this LGAT scam. My life was a mess in all areas and when I was told I had the power to create different relationships in my life. I wanted the quick fix in doing so that they promised.

Only problem was the fact that no relationship in my life was remotely a good one. The template was skewed in me from my childhood. I did not even know this.

Until now. This is what I can thank Klemmer for. The destruction in my life from their LGAT philosophy upon my already existing emotional damage that was festering with extreme infection from not being addressed and cleansed out emotionally is what finally made me face it in my life.

So. In that respect. I am finally dealing with cleaning out, and healing this deep emotional wound from extreme trauma and abuse in my life as a child.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-26-2007 01:04 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgian. I hope your okay with my posts on here. Maxui posts stirred this up in me. I have been wanting to share it on this website anyway.

I was just debating about how to begin it, and where to place it.

If it was to much venting on my part? I apologize and will try to not vent so much where it is not wanted.

Thanks for your consideration ahead of time on this matter.

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question lady
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 162
Location: USA
Posted: 08-26-2007 02:09 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters1

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I have really been taking myself on since my atomic destruction that erupted in my life from Klemmer philosophy application upon my life.

Unfortunately. I am not able to come from a place of being healthy emotionally going in.

I do have extreme abuse and trauma in my childhood. As my soon to be ex-wife has also in her past.

So it was very hard not to buy into the mindset that Klemmer teaches in their LGAT philosophy of we are each at cause for what happens to us.

.

It makes sense that your childhood experience would make you suseptible to that philosophy. Kids tend to think that they were the cause of the abuse they endured. Of course I think the philosophy is also attractive to many people with basically good childhoods.

What a seductive philosophy that we can simply change ourselves and thereby change relationships with abusive people into healthy relationships. I think one of the hardest things in life is to accept that there are many things, and definitely other people, that are not within our control. It would be lovely if we could be "at cause" for everything.

Bravo Mr. Rswinters. You seem to be seeing clearly and taking care of yourself. I'm cheering for you.

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question lady
Bravo Mr. Rswinters. You seem to be seeing clearly and taking care of yourself. I'm cheering for you.

Thank you very much. Facing this in me is the hardest, and the most alone that I have felt in my life.

Considering that I have always felt on the outside of life, and relationships my whole life.

Facing the emptiness from this infected emotional from my past and how it is still affecting me in how I react to things, and people in my life is very empty.

I have one source that is filling this emptiness. But out of respect for this websites views. I will not go there in sharing how it the one and only thing that is helping me as I face this deep emotional wound within me.

So. Thanks

Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-24-2007 10:15 PM Post subject:

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Maxui
[The LGAT I attended, while insisting on strict adherence to the rules of the seminar also insisted on adherence to the rules that govern us as a society.

That was the meaning you took on it. You can't say that is how every participant took it.

I am like you and took what was taught with the same perception. It took my wife choosing to have a whole different way of looking at it and its meaning for her in how she is choosing to be in life to wake me up to this contradiction that exists in these seminars.

I can now look back and see many other examples in other participants who was doing what my wife is doing also.

My focus was so fixed on me from having Klemmer drive me in only looking at me as being at cause, and etc...

Well not all of us in society follow the rules of society and just because I try to do this. Doesn't mean all others do this.

Also it places me in a delusional state that blocks me from hearing how my behavior is affecting another. Which is not their problem always. Many times it is mine, and I need to hear that my behavior is unwelcomed and needs to be changed.

This is what I believe causes much of the harm in participants in LGAT's.

Some will hear this from others. While others choose to not hear this.

Actually I don't think they choose not to hear it. I think they turn of the megaphone that is telling them about it.

Pain, and conflict. Sometimes it is a megaphone that needs to be listened to. Sometimes it is what I need to hear about me that is very negative and at the same time very needed to be heard by me.

Many in LGAT's come in to these seminars with this megaphone turned off in their lives. All the seminars do for them is to seal off access to turning on this megaphone as pleasure, and hedonism is encouraged to be sought by those in attendance.

It is a emotional unhealthy breeding ground where participants are stirred up with such intensity that both good and bad come out of the controlled chao's used to brainwash the participants with encouraging interactions that are both good and bad.

The good gets used to promote the seminars. While the bad are discarded and glossed over as being the participants fault of not getting it.

What a huge SCAM. I punch you in the face, and then tell you that your face hurting is because you did not get it and missed what was needed to get from being hit in face. Besides the bystander who watched me hit you in the face has taken your being hit in face and has created some amazing things in his life. He got it. Why won't you get it?

What a joke... This is never ending in how it can go round, and round, and round...

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-24-2007 11:38 PM Post subject:

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Maxui wrote:

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Maxui, maybe the better question to is here is. Is it a healthy seminar for participants to be involved in that has these opposing results on participants lives?

My Therapist continuously stops me when I want to debate with him why something is so messed up in certian destructive relationships in my life.

He states that you can't understand the reason a trauma bond is so destructive when trying to understand the destruction that is a result of the trauma bond.

I believe the same thing applies here with regards to LGAT's. I believe you will understand this question of yours about LGAT's. The answer can't be found in trying to understand this difference in how it help some, and destroyed others.

It is the whole method, and how the large group dynamics work as a whole.

It produces both good and bad in people. For us to debate that is a never ending argument that is based on each persons perception on it.

The common denominator in all the posts on this website and including your question being asked here is the same.

It is the powerful emotional influence that an LGAT influenced a participant to do in their lives.

Remove the influence? Remove both the good, and bad outcomes.

So would you not believe it... The common denominator is the LGAT in all this stuff.

So here is my question to you. What would all these peoples lives be like if they did not get involved in an LGAT, or a friend or loved one did not get involved in one?

That is the better question? Not trying to understand why it worked for you, and failed for others.

Get your focus off of yourself only, and make it a broader view and look at the bigger picture.

Stop believing the lie that just because the results in your life are so wonderful. That it nullifies the destructive affects in others like me.

I know your not attacking me here. Your just wearing the blinders that your LGAT experience placed on your eyes and heart in looking at others.



Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-24-2007 11:56 PM Post subject:

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Please don't see this as attacking you. I am discovering that I have been focused on your very same question from the other angle.

Why did my LGAT experience fail so miserably and create such destruction in my life?

Which is the same question your asking, and is just a mirrored oposite question.

I have discovered in my venting on this website. This is the wrong question and can't be answered ever.

So, I am learning to ask the right questions to myself in my professional counseling as I am learning to deal with the emotional destruction from my childhood trauma and abuse that I experienced at the hands of my mothers chaos abuse done towards me in my formulative years between birth and 6 years of age.

I have never dealt with the emotional damage in me from this stuff. Which is what led to my being sucked into Klemmer from the emotional pain of not facing this and working through emotional healing in my life.

Klemmer promised a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow emotionally that I ran after with all my might.

Well, I reached the pot of gold only to discover it was empty and full of poison as nothing can be gained when you have unresolved deep emotional wounds and trauma in my life.

I am now more than committed than ever to professional counseling to resolve these past infected emotional wounds in my life.

Klemmer and all the other LGAT's do not take steps to understand this in people.

Thus placing people in various levels of emotional health into a cauldron called seminars and stirs up the pot within peoples psyches.

Some are left unharmed and full of self realizations that help while others are hurt by others in seminars who get there self realizations at others expense emotionally.

Well, sorry for needing to say it like this. I resent being used in an abusive way to help another gain powerful self realizations that help them except their greatness. I am definitely refering to how they influenced me, and how they influenced my soon to be ex-wife.

But, at the same time the destruction between me and my wife is what has openned my eyes to the lies, deception, and delusion of Klemmer and other LGAT's.

Wisdom comes from seeing others mistakes and learning from them and avoiding doing the same.

Maxui it is time to learn from the destruction in others on this website and quit trying to support these LGAT's as good.

It is time to learn from the common destruction that is being shared here on this website.

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skeptic wrote:
One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she cannot see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!


Rswinters wrote:
This is why I believe that having the discussion on what the LGAT's are doing to participants is like what my therapist has told me. You can't understand a trauma bond from within the trauma bond. Meaning you can't understand why there is a conflict from within the conflict.

It is a given that LGAT's are brainwashing us in these seminars. Those of us who have undergone this brainwashing and have come out of it. We know we have been brainwashed by our LGAT experience.

Even thought this forum is helpful in exposing these LGAT's. I have discoverd the most helpful way to face the brainwashing wihtin me, and to deprogram from its affect upon my life.

I have had to get very down and dirty with myself. I have had to face what it was in me that attracted me to an LGAT to find the answers that I heard Klemmer had for my life.

I think if we can start to become brutally honest about what each of us was searching for as we got lured to the light of these LGAT's in our individual lifes.

If we don't start sharing from that aspect on this forum. I believe we will sound like a bunch of complainers that are disgruntled with our LGAT experience.

There is much on this forum, and much in the many experiences that expose the lies and deception of LGAT's for readers.

I would like to hear from the many members who are mad at their LGAT experience as I am. I would love to hear honesty about what was the magnetic pull that was attracted within each of us to blindly allow ourselves to be so brainwashed.

Mine was the relational pain that was between my mother an me. Plus the pain of what I kept creating in marriages as I kept marrying my mother and running into the extreme emotional pain from the abuse coming from them.

I am finally seperating myself from the prime source of abuse in my life. My Mother!

In doing so. I am identifying the magnet within myself that pulled me to my destructive LGAT experience.

Well others please share about this aspect in your own life? I would really like to hear this, and believe it will help expose these LGAT's for what they are.

Please share.



What drew me to Klemmer was the false hope of relational bliss that could be created in my life as I applied Klemmers philosophy in my life.

Well, it was just that "False Hope".

The reality is there are people that are abusive, and it is not a matter of changing the meaning I am placing on behavior.

Abuse is abuse and is abuse no matter how you slice it. The only answer to abuse relationally is to remove yourself from the person who is abusive.

I never learned this aspect within my life and how to safeguard myself agianst abusive peole. (Which this aspect is learned in the dynamics of being parented).

Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is extremely destructive to someone with my past abuse and trauma in my life. It intensifies my attachment to abusive people.

Thus it is why I let Klemmer influence me to remarry an abuser that I divorced the first time from seeing the abuse.

Klemmer made me believe I was wrong in divorcing her the first time.

I am discovering this is absolutely absurd. Just as Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is messed up and is wrong. I was wrong in remarrying an abusive women thinking I could change the meaning on her behavior.

Plus the worst one of all was how I could change the meaning on the abuse coming from my mother.

This is not so. I am finally getting to the core of all this abuse, and trauma in my life.

Finally calling abuse what it is in my life. ABUSE. I know longer need to accept it from people.

Regardless of what LGAT's say about the meaning, or the cause of...




SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 11:45 PM Post subject:

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Rs, you're walking a very fine line here. Anyone can look at their life and find a problem that might have pushed them towards an lgat. But what you are saying is leaning quite heavily towards the idea of 'being at cause' for getting into an lgat. If others want to do that, that is okay by me. But I will not, and I don't like the tone you're taking on this, telling others not to sound like they're complaining. I got suckered, I suffered, and I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life in a public forum, just in case it MIGHT be relevant and just in case someone might think I'm complaining too much instead of "taking responsibility". F*ck that. I've had that line pushed down my throat for years, its not what I'm here for.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-30-2007 12:44 AM Post subject:

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Rs, I'm not trying to be rude to you. But you're basically telling people here to stand up and 'share' and 'be at cause' for their experience. Its like being right back in a training room. Lgats con people, whether they were searching or not, had problems or not. If you think its relevant, fine, but why insult everyone else? Why is that every time you find something that helps YOU, anyone else who doesn't want to do it has something wrong with them? Don't want to do genesis program? Oh, you're christianity-bashing. Don't want to make it your own fault you got into an lgat? Oh, you're not being honest, you're not digging deep to find your own dirt, you're just complaining. What do you think you're doing when you talk about your mother? Is that not complaining?? What makes that any different, if you want to categorize everything as complaining?

Any person on earth can find some problem to hang the lgat on. Anyone. But the fact is, people get into lgats because they are RECRUITED and CONNED. They'll find any hook in any person, and use it. You want to analyse your hook, go ahead. But why MUST people share? Why don't you RESPECT how much people want to share, and in what areas, instead of making it out to be some kind of crime not to share everything? Is this not your programming talking? Everyone must share, everyone must take responsibility for how they created the lgat experience in their life???

The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 12:53 AM Post subject: share, yes

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Hi rswinters1,
I keep getting timed out, so I will have to respond to your comments in segments.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I will eloborate more on this after I have typed a reply in (word), and paste it here...

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

It is only past experience, and lack of money, that kept me from getting sucked into Landmark, so I don't mean to make myself seem smarter or emotionally healther than anyone else. We all have issues, and it just depends on how vulnerable we are at the time of exposure (to the LGATs) whether or not we take the bait.

take care, and keep sharing, I do believe that it will help heal the wounds, to know that you are so not alone in this. - but you already know that.

more later,
regards,
'shad'




The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 12:53 AM Post subject: share, yes

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Hi rswinters1,
I keep getting timed out, so I will have to respond to your comments in segments.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I will eloborate more on this after I have typed a reply in (word), and paste it here...

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

It is only past experience, and lack of money, that kept me from getting sucked into Landmark, so I don't mean to make myself seem smarter or emotionally healther than anyone else. We all have issues, and it just depends on how vulnerable we are at the time of exposure (to the LGATs) whether or not we take the bait.

take care, and keep sharing, I do believe that it will help heal the wounds, to know that you are so not alone in this. - but you already know that.

more later,
regards,
'shad'

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 01:00 AM Post subject: conditioning

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Hi SaneAgain,

Obviously the conditioning runs deep. It seems it will take time for people who have spent a long time in the LGAT groups to go back to who they were originally. But of course, none of us ever stay the same. Life's experience change us, may unalterably. The trick is to get back to one's intinsic self, that child who came out of the proverbial 'womb'....to know that person before he/she was influenced by society around us.

I think is must be incredibly difficult, as I am sure there are 'triggers' that throw one right back to where they were when they first got free from the LGAT. It must be like riding on a roller-coaster. One minute you think one thing, next minute you start second-guessing yourself. And I think that is why Grads, and current members of Landmark/EST, Insignt, Impact et all, keep coming here and posting. They are trying to destabilize those who have excaped the clutches of those 'gangsters'.

so take care, all of us, we must all take care of each other and ourselves.

regards,
'shad'




question lady
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 162
Location: USA
Posted: 08-28-2007 08:14 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
"Going into effect" means that you react automatically to the world around you, like a machine or a computer, based on your "programming" which is based on past experience. When you are "at cause" you are supposed to be living in the present moment and creating a new experience, rather than living in the past and 'giving away your power' to others by allowing them to 'push your buttons' to get a reaction.

The only way to escape your programming and be truly at cause is by continuously clearing and / or releasing the past and past emotions.

Question lady, I think this is the underlying principle that The Sedona Method is probably also based on or derived from. It stems from Scientology by the way, where L. Ron Hubbard invented the concepts of "at cause", "going into effect", "the reactive mind" and "becoming (a) clear".

I think the concept of going into effect contributes to people in lgats lacking compassion because when someone shows a negative emotion (eg feeling hurt by something you've said) then it is interpreted as that person "going into effect" and something to be dismissed because its just old programming, the other person's sh*t that they should clear rather than making it your problem.


The concepts sound just like The Release Technique - the mind is like a computer, past programming. They don't say "at cause" and "at effect' that i know of. (geez, talk about terms that no one outside the LGATcan understand) but rather 'ego' or 'ego/mind' versus "beingness". Several people, including my husband, have said it is similar to the scientology scale. And yes, i experienced the arrogance of the newly enlightened when I had any so called "negative" emotion - that I just needed to "release'.

It is frustrating. These programs are all so similar, yet my husband does not see in any way that there was covert persuasion. I wish I had taped him when he was 'in beingness" up so he could hear himself and the things he actually believed.

He now sees that Larry Crane lies, that the method does not deliver, but not that there was any covert mind control. Do you think it is necessary to know what happened to you in order to fully recover from it? I'm concerned that it is necessary and also in order to not get taken in again. And BTW, decades ago, my husband was in Scientology for a while - and yet here he goes again. And he owns "The Guru Papers" and "Snapping". I am at a loss.

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skeptic
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-28-2007 06:44 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
I think the concept of going into effect contributes to people in lgats lacking compassion because when someone shows a negative emotion (eg feeling hurt by something you've said) then it is interpreted as that person "going into effect" and something to be dismissed because its just old programming, the other person's sh*t that they should clear rather than making it your problem. Obviously its very selective and open to interpretation when a person may choose to be "at cause" for creating pain in another person that they are in relationship with, and choosing to see it as the other person's sh*t caused by them going into effect.





SaneAgain - Great explanation how lgats make people cold-hearted. Lgats substitute the old programming with one that destroys one's humanity. And, yes, application of it is very selective (crazy). Making anything about the other person's old programming gives you license to be ruthless.

The lgat I wasted time & $$ on (CONtext Associated), while programming us to be UNcompassionate, had us memorize & recite 10 tenets, one of which was, "I am compassionate with myself and others. I remember we are all wounded." So, as we used the "teachings" to dismantle our humanity, we had this handy thought-stopper (gospel) implanted in our minds which assured us that we were not what in reality we were.

CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

skeptic

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exImpact
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 221

Posted: 08-28-2007 07:41 PM Post subject:

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I'm going to post this on the Impact thread, but I think it is relative to the current topic so I'll post here too.

This effect/reaction stuff is interesting. At Impact the logic went like this: People go through life choosing to be victims: “Everyone did this to me and that is why I am the way I am the way I am and that is how I justify being a horrible person to everyone else on the planet."

The Impact fix to this is for a person to consciously choose accountability for everything that has (or will) happen in not only their own lives, but in the lives of the people around them. Then you are not simply in "effect/reaction" to everything, rather you are at "cause", and are a "creator". They then expand this creationism to be the true divine nature of the human being, and on into the idea that all humans are in fact gods.

Now, here is where I began to see their (at that time, “our”) logic break down. Whenever something dysfunctional happened in the trainings such as oh, fornication and adultery among the office staff and the trainees for one real example, lip service was given to "accountability" by those in charge, but not "responsibility" which according to them literally means "the ability to respond". Responsibility is being at effect; and thus a victim, so no no no no. They do not take accountability by saying, "Oh...maybe its the training and our shoddy product that caused this abhorrent, deviant behavior...". No, you will never hear that. I did hear, "Oh, I am ONLY accountable in that I should have been more careful as to who I let into my inner circle."

Essentially saying: “The training is good the training is great we surrender our will as of this date.”

Then of course, I would invariably come to another conflict in this logic when a trainee with a history of molestation would come to Impact. They would get confused when they were told that they allowed the abuse to happen. And always, some random exception to this “logic” would be given, such as “Well, you are and have been accountable for how you have chosen to respond to the abuse, right?” or something to that effect, but they can never directly address the flaw in their logic. If a little helpless kid is a god and is at choice, how could they be considered a victim in fact? And if they can be, why not everyone else? I mean, we are dealing with universal truth here, right? I heard it explained this way more than a few times: "not only are we at choice, but we are also in relationship with the choices of others." Isn't that what being a victim is all about in the first place?!? This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called The Little Soul and the Sun.

Convenient, no? It is no wonder why so many Mormons eat this stuff up…

The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-28-2007 10:24 PM Post subject:

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Hi exImpact,
you wrote:

Quote
exImpact

Then of course, I would invariably come to another conflict in this logic when a trainee with a history of molestation would come to Impact. They would get confused when they were told that they allowed the abuse to happen. And always, some random exception to this “logic” would be given, such as “Well, you are and have been accountable for [i:d6363e88b0]how[/i:d6363e88b0] you have chosen to respond to the abuse, right?” or something to that effect, but they can never directly address the flaw in their logic. If a little helpless kid is a god and is at choice, how could they be considered a victim in fact? And if [i:d6363e88b0]they[/i:d6363e88b0] can be, why not everyone else? I mean, we are dealing with universal truth here, right? :roll: I heard it explained this way more than a few times: "not only are we at choice, but we are also in relationship with the choices of others." Isn't that what being a victim is all about in the first place?!? This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called [i:d6363e88b0]The Little Soul and the Sun[/i:d6363e88b0].

Convenient, no? It is no wonder why so many Mormons eat this stuff up…

The Shadow wrote:

Yep, blaming the victim, AGAIN. You are right, no wonder these types of movements florish. They can do WHATEVER they like, without being held accountable to the standards that us "normal" people are held accountable to. Even in this Forum, there is an individual who can say whatever hurtful things he likes, but when someone criticises him, its "oh poor battered me, I'm just telling people about MY experience, why is everyone picking on me!" Talk about the double standard!

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-28-2007 10:28 PM Post subject:

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"at cause" -- Oh brother! :lol: talk about reinventing the wheel... why not just say "being in the present". sheeesh....

what a load of bullcrap! -- And LGAT grads wonder why we think they have lost their minds!

'shad'

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-28-2007 10:35 PM Post subject: this sounds like my ex-

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Hi skeptic,
your posted:

Quote
skeptic

Quote
SaneAgain
I think the concept of going into effect contributes to people in lgats lacking compassion because when someone shows a negative emotion (eg feeling hurt by something you've said) then it is interpreted as that person "going into effect" and something to be dismissed because its just old programming, the other person's sh*t that they should clear rather than making it your problem. Obviously its very selective and open to interpretation when a person may choose to be "at cause" for creating pain in another person that they are in relationship with, and choosing to see it as the other person's sh*t caused by them going into effect.

SaneAgain - Great explanation how lgats make people cold-hearted. Lgats substitute the old programming with one that destroys one's humanity. And, yes, application of it is very selective (crazy). Making anything about the other person's old programming gives you license to be ruthless.

The lgat I wasted time & $$ on (CONtext Associated), while programming us to be UNcompassionate, had us memorize & recite 10 tenets, one of which was, "I am compassionate with myself and others. I remember we are all wounded." So, as we used the "teachings" to dismantle our humanity, we had this handy thought-stopper (gospel) implanted in our minds which assured us that we were not what in reality we were.

CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

skeptic

yep crazzzzzzzy indeed. This sounds so much like my ex-husband. He was/is so emotionally distant...and everything was always my fault. Finally I had to leave him because I truly thought I was going insane. When I was away from him and in another relationship it was amazing to experience the difference.

It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!

regards,
'shad'

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skeptic
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-29-2007 12:06 AM Post subject: Re: this sounds like my ex-

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The Shadow wrote:
It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!



HAHAHAHA! It's not funny but I like how you put that. It's too true. Lgats take perfectly good people & screw them all up. I think your question is an excellent one: how do lgat-infected people relate to each other? I don't think they really do. They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true.

skeptic

Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 01:23 AM Post subject: Re: this sounds like my ex-

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skeptic wrote:
The Shadow wrote:
It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!



HAHAHAHA! It's not funny but I like how you put that. It's too true. Lgats take perfectly good people & screw them all up. I think your question is an excellent one: how do lgat-infected people relate to each other? I don't think they really do. They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true.

skeptic


I totally agree with this aspect. I had a situation where I was staffing Klemmers third seminar called Heart of a Samurai. One of the facilitators that I strongly admired (Brian Miller). Anyway, I don't need to get into the details, but in staffing with him during this seminar. I was caught completely off guard over what I will call an emptiness of his beingness that I fellt in a interaction during the seminar with him. It had to do with a logistical problem that arose from what the faciltator's told the participants and what actually happened in the actual process of seminar.

I don't need to go into the details of the situation. What struck me the most in this situation was the empty hollowness that I saw in his eyes, and soul in the interaction around the situation.

I admired the passion that he had towards Klemmers philosophy. But in this particular situation. I found out that it was all show and tell for him.

I have looked at this mans life, and have discovered there is much white washing going on in his life in many other areas.

Who cares that he is financially wealthy. Money is not everything, and you can still be a jerk with money.

Having money is not a guage to use in determining sucess in life. Those who feel that money is a guage for determining if someone is sucessful or not in life?

Money creates shallowness in people. Not depth, or integrity.

The virtues that matter in life have nothing to do with money.

It has to do with relationships. How we treat one another. That is the guage we need to use.

Money does help in life. But it is not what makes our life.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 01:37 AM Post subject:

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Brian miller is in his late 40's and he is in and out of relationships in his life. He is a powerfully dynamic facilitator for Klemmer & Associates. Yet he is shallow and empty where intimate relationships go.

If this man is so wonderful as he pretends to be. He would not be a single man as he is at present.

His love life is kept off the radar. But, I have seen enough to know from my being involved in Klemmer that he goes through girlfriends like everything else in his life.

He is a user of people, women, and things. Other than his so called giving of himself as a facilitator in Klemmers seminars. Which is very emotionally appealing in the short run in getting to know him.

Yet, for me. As I got to know him and looked at his life outside of Klemmer.

I found myself wanting nothing to do with his views on life. I do not want to be a white washed tomb in relationships.

All you have in LGAT's participants and staff having relationships with each other is shallowness and that is all.

Because you can't have a relationship with those you can't resolve conflict with.

Relationship comes from being able to resolve conflicts with others.

This is what is missing in LGAT's philosophy. No where on these posts, or in LGAT's has there been a place, or post of how two opposing views on LGAT philosophy has been reached where there is an acceptance of two opposing views and allowed for a relationship to continue inspite of it.

Not so with this website. I am a living testimony of how this website promotes relationship in a healthy manner.

I had a conflict with some members on this forum. It got ugly and it got resolved without reaching an agreement in philosophy attained.

I still hold my views, and those who I had a conflict still hold there views. Yet, we have reached a mutual respect for one another in our differences.

This doesn't happen in LGAT's. But it does happen in the real world, and between people in a healthy environment that embraces negativity without shunning it like LGAT's do.

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-29-2007 07:53 PM Post subject: Re: this sounds like my ex-

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Quote
"skeptic" :"They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true. " skeptic[/quote

Hi skeptic;
that makes sense, i see that with my friend sometimes, the "facade", and that is when I don't recognize her, she just seems like a bright-eyed automaton, and I KNOW THIS GIRL WELL! - she even LOOKS different when she is in Landmark/EST mode, parroting away in her ESTie jargon.

So as I read your comment something came to me; feeling a lack of connection must make them feel really empty (spiritually), that explains the zeal with which they go into recruiting mode. That also explains why LGAT Grads keep coming over her, to try to find some real human connection.

Thanks, this gives me a better understanding, and maybe it will help me be more patient with them.

regards,
'shad'

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 08:26 PM Post subject:

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Maxui wrote:

Quote:
So I went to a presentation evening at her request. The thing that got me interested was the concept of cellular memory. I have mentioned before that I am a practitioner of Chinese Gong Fu and the idea that I could "absorb" knowledge into my very cells was extremely interesting to me.


Is this the same 'cellular memory' that L. Ron Hubbard postulated as the basis for engrams?

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 08:57 PM Post subject:

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Question Lady wrote:

Quote:
The concepts sound just like The Release Technique - the mind is like a computer, past programming. They don't say "at cause" and "at effect' that i know of. (geez, talk about terms that no one outside the LGATcan understand) but rather 'ego' or 'ego/mind' versus "beingness". Several people, including my husband, have said it is similar to the scientology scale. And yes, i experienced the arrogance of the newly enlightened when I had any so called "negative" emotion - that I just needed to "release'.

It is frustrating. These programs are all so similar, yet my husband does not see in any way that there was covert persuasion. I wish I had taped him when he was 'in beingness" up so he could hear himself and the things he actually believed.

He now sees that Larry Crane lies, that the method does not deliver, but not that there was any covert mind control. Do you think it is necessary to know what happened to you in order to fully recover from it? I'm concerned that it is necessary and also in order to not get taken in again. And BTW, decades ago, my husband was in Scientology for a while - and yet here he goes again. And he owns "The Guru Papers" and "Snapping". I am at a loss.


Its really good news that he sees through Larry Crane and has lost faith in the method! Does that mean he's stopped going to classes, dumped his releasing buddy, etc? Do you ever notice him using the techniques still, either consciously or unconsciounsly (maybe controlling his breathing, for example?)

My answer to your question, based on what happened to me, would have to be "Yes, it is necessary to know what happened to you to recover from it". Maybe not for everyone, but for me it was / is. And it sounds like your husband never truly shook off the scientology stuff, and maybe that was part of the attraction of The Sedona Method, the 'nice' parts of scientology that he maybe still longed for and / or believed in.

I had to take two steps - first I recognised that it "wasn't working for me" and that the trainers and training were flawed, and I got out. But that was like walking out of a prison but still acting and feeling like a prisoner, because I still believed the core of what they taught me and I had no idea I'd been conditioned. In retrospect that was only about ten percent "out". The rest came from reading this site, and really working at undoing all the ideas and 'automatic' responses and destructive feelings quest gave me. Now I feel about 70% "out". I still catch myself automatically thinking quest stuff, particularly when I am under stress or upset. And I still regularly read things here that I think / do and had forgotten that they actually from quest. The parts that still affect me are the parts that I haven't yet been able to dismantle intellectually, to see what the 'trick' was.

I also know other people who say they are out, but resort to using quest things under stress (for example, in an argument).

What has really helped me is going back and looking at the things I believed and took an interest in before quest. A lot of those things are quite contrary to quest, so I'm lucky. For example, Carl Sagan was one of my favourite authors, before quest. So now it helps to have that to use as a point of reference when I get a quest fog in my brain. I think religion has been similarly helpful to others, for example Rswinters taking a renewed interest and perspective in his christian faith.

Maybe your husband has similar lost / forgotten / over-ridden interests or beliefs, that you could discuss in terms of how contradictory the sedona method is to the other beliefs, and how odd it is that he came to believe all the sedona things so easily? This may lead him to at least consider that he was covertly conditioned. Maybe he's just got a case of "it couldn't happen to me" syndrome? So he reads things like 'snapping' and doesn't recognise himself there? It is a bit bewildering..

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 09:17 PM Post subject:

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exImpact wrote:

Quote:
This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called The Little Soul and the Sun.


Thank you, ex. Same story at Quest South Africa, although - like all their other 'teachings' - not really explicitly explained, but implied through cryptic comments delivered in the middle of a highly controlled gestalty type atmosphere where the trainees are outnumbered by assistants, who act as if they represent the universe and respond in a way that is supposed to teach the lesson. It becomes more explicitly stated as you do more courses and assist more.

In the basic course it is presented only as "you chose your parents" and with the comment "you don't have to believe it, but if you choose to think that way you are more empowered, so you might as well... it doesn't have to be true" - but later on they make it into an Absolute Truth, Law of the Universe type thing.

This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.

By the way, I've always thought this was a light-worker / star people / ascended masters new agey type philosophy, I didn't figure it came from Mormons?? Though I know that Hinkins guy, the one who started Insight Training in the U.S. and the church of MSIA - movement for spiritual inner awareness - was originally a mormon, so maybe that's how it spread?

Any ideas anyone? LOL!! Maybe I've been a Mormon these past few years, and I didn't even know it! - Sorry, no offense - but I hear they don't allow drinking of tea coffee!? Never mind alcohol!

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skeptic
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-29-2007 09:37 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.




This INFURIATES me too! I think it is outrageous and I don't think it should be legal to do this!!!!!!!!!!

Because of this covert/deceptive "technique" I lost & wasted six years, thousands of dollars, part of my mind & personality, and was exploited & manipulated to recruit. The whole thing continues to infuriate me.

I don't know law but it really seems to me that what is wrong about what lgats do is something that crosses a line in terms of lawful behavior between people.

skeptic

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skeptic
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-29-2007 09:41 PM Post subject:

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One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she cannot see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 10:18 PM Post subject:

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Skeptic, you're right, its crazy. You try tell people they're brainwashed to believe they chose everything, and they say no, its not true, I chose to believe that

As for the legal side - you need a license to charge someone for a haircut, or to fix their plumbing, but turning people's minds and personalities inside out -

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 11:25 PM Post subject:

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skeptic wrote:
One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she cannot see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!


This is why I believe that having the discussion on what the LGAT's are doing to participants is like what my therapist has told me. You can't understand a trauma bond from within the trauma bond. Meaning you can't understand why there is a conflict from within the conflict.

It is a given that LGAT's are brainwashing us in these seminars. Those of us who have undergone this brainwashing and have come out of it. We know we have been brainwashed by our LGAT experience.

Even thought this forum is helpful in exposing these LGAT's. I have discoverd the most helpful way

Quote

skeptic wrote:
One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she cannot see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!


Rswinters wrote:
This is why I believe that having the discussion on what the LGAT's are doing to participants is like what my therapist has told me. You can't understand a trauma bond from within the trauma bond. Meaning you can't understand why there is a conflict from within the conflict.

It is a given that LGAT's are brainwashing us in these seminars. Those of us who have undergone this brainwashing and have come out of it. We know we have been brainwashed by our LGAT experience.

Even thought this forum is helpful in exposing these LGAT's. I have discoverd the most helpful way to face the brainwashing wihtin me, and to deprogram from its affect upon my life.

I have had to get very down and dirty with myself. I have had to face what it was in me that attracted me to an LGAT to find the answers that I heard Klemmer had for my life.

I think if we can start to become brutally honest about what each of us was searching for as we got lured to the light of these LGAT's in our individual lifes.

If we don't start sharing from that aspect on this forum. I believe we will sound like a bunch of complainers that are disgruntled with our LGAT experience.

There is much on this forum, and much in the many experiences that expose the lies and deception of LGAT's for readers.

I would like to hear from the many members who are mad at their LGAT experience as I am. I would love to hear honesty about what was the magnetic pull that was attracted within each of us to blindly allow ourselves to be so brainwashed.

Mine was the relational pain that was between my mother an me. Plus the pain of what I kept creating in marriages as I kept marrying my mother and running into the extreme emotional pain from the abuse coming from them.

I am finally seperating myself from the prime source of abuse in my life. My Mother!

In doing so. I am identifying the magnet within myself that pulled me to my destructive LGAT experience.

Well others please share about this aspect in your own life? I would really like to hear this, and believe it will help expose these LGAT's for what they are.

Please share.



What drew me to Klemmer was the false hope of relational bliss that could be created in my life as I applied Klemmers philosophy in my life.

Well, it was just that "False Hope".

The reality is there are people that are abusive, and it is not a matter of changing the meaning I am placing on behavior.

Abuse is abuse and is abuse no matter how you slice it. The only answer to abuse relationally is to remove yourself from the person who is abusive.

I never learned this aspect within my life and how to safeguard myself agianst abusive peole. (Which this aspect is learned in the dynamics of being parented).

Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is extremely destructive to someone with my past abuse and trauma in my life. It intensifies my attachment to abusive people.

Thus it is why I let Klemmer influence me to remarry an abuser that I divorced the first time from seeing the abuse.

Klemmer made me believe I was wrong in divorcing her the first time.

I am discovering this is absolutely absurd. Just as Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is messed up and is wrong. I was wrong in remarrying an abusive women thinking I could change the meaning on her behavior.

Plus the worst one of all was how I could change the meaning on the abuse coming from my mother.

This is not so. I am finally getting to the core of all this abuse, and trauma in my life.

Finally calling abuse what it is in my life. ABUSE. I know longer need to accept it from people.

Regardless of what LGAT's say about the meaning, or the cause of...




SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 11:45 PM Post subject:

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Rs, you're walking a very fine line here. Anyone can look at their life and find a problem that might have pushed them towards an lgat. But what you are saying is leaning quite heavily towards the idea of 'being at cause' for getting into an lgat. If others want to do that, that is okay by me. But I will not, and I don't like the tone you're taking on this, telling others not to sound like they're complaining. I got suckered, I suffered, and I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life in a public forum, just in case it MIGHT be relevant and just in case someone might think I'm complaining too much instead of "taking responsibility". F*ck that. I've had that line pushed down my throat for years, its not what I'm here for.

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SaneAgain
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Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-30-2007 12:44 AM Post subject:

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Rs, I'm not trying to be rude to you. But you're basically telling people here to stand up and 'share' and 'be at cause' for their experience. Its like being right back in a training room. Lgats con people, whether they were searching or not, had problems or not. If you think its relevant, fine, but why insult everyone else? Why is that every time you find something that helps YOU, anyone else who doesn't want to do it has something wrong with them? Don't want to do genesis program? Oh, you're christianity-bashing. Don't want to make it your own fault you got into an lgat? Oh, you're not being honest, you're not digging deep to find your own dirt, you're just complaining. What do you think you're doing when you talk about your mother? Is that not complaining?? What makes that any different, if you want to categorize everything as complaining?

Any person on earth can find some problem to hang the lgat on. Anyone. But the fact is, people get into lgats because they are RECRUITED and CONNED. They'll find any hook in any person, and use it. You want to analyse your hook, go ahead. But why MUST people share? Why don't you RESPECT how much people want to share, and in what areas, instead of making it out to be some kind of crime not to share everything? Is this not your programming talking? Everyone must share, everyone must take responsibility for how they created the lgat experience in their life???

The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 12:53 AM Post subject: share, yes

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Hi rswinters1,
I keep getting timed out, so I will have to respond to your comments in segments.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I will eloborate more on this after I have typed a reply in (word), and paste it here...

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

It is only past experience, and lack of money, that kept me from getting sucked into Landmark, so I don't mean to make myself seem smarter or emotionally healther than anyone else. We all have issues, and it just depends on how vulnerable we are at the time of exposure (to the LGATs) whether or not we take the bait.

take care, and keep sharing, I do believe that it will help heal the wounds, to know that you are so not alone in this. - but you already know that.

more later,
regards,
'shad'




The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 12:53 AM Post subject: share, yes

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Hi rswinters1,
I keep getting timed out, so I will have to respond to your comments in segments.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I will eloborate more on this after I have typed a reply in (word), and paste it here...

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

It is only past experience, and lack of money, that kept me from getting sucked into Landmark, so I don't mean to make myself seem smarter or emotionally healther than anyone else. We all have issues, and it just depends on how vulnerable we are at the time of exposure (to the LGATs) whether or not we take the bait.

take care, and keep sharing, I do believe that it will help heal the wounds, to know that you are so not alone in this. - but you already know that.

more later,
regards,
'shad'

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 01:00 AM Post subject: conditioning

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Hi SaneAgain,

Obviously the conditioning runs deep. It seems it will take time for people who have spent a long time in the LGAT groups to go back to who they were originally. But of course, none of us ever stay the same. Life's experience change us, may unalterably. The trick is to get back to one's intinsic self, that child who came out of the proverbial 'womb'....to know that person before he/she was influenced by society around us.

I think is must be incredibly difficult, as I am sure there are 'triggers' that throw one right back to where they were when they first got free from the LGAT. It must be like riding on a roller-coaster. One minute you think one thing, next minute you start second-guessing yourself. And I think that is why Grads, and current members of Landmark/EST, Insignt, Impact et all, keep coming here and posting. They are trying to destabilize those who have excaped the clutches of those 'gangsters'.

so take care, all of us, we must all take care of each other and ourselves.

regards,
'shad'




question lady
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 162
Location: USA
Posted: 08-28-2007 08:14 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
"Going into effect" means that you react automatically to the world around you, like a machine or a computer, based on your "programming" which is based on past experience. When you are "at cause" you are supposed to be living in the present moment and creating a new experience, rather than living in the past and 'giving away your power' to others by allowing them to 'push your buttons' to get a reaction.

The only way to escape your programming and be truly at cause is by continuously clearing and / or releasing the past and past emotions.

Question lady, I think this is the underlying principle that The Sedona Method is probably also based on or derived from. It stems from Scientology by the way, where L. Ron Hubbard invented the concepts of "at cause", "going into effect", "the reactive mind" and "becoming (a) clear".

I think the concept of going into effect contributes to people in lgats lacking compassion because when someone shows a negative emotion (eg feeling hurt by something you've said) then it is interpreted as that person "going into effect" and something to be dismissed because its just old programming, the other person's sh*t that they should clear rather than making it your problem.


The concepts sound just like The Release Technique - the mind is like a computer, past programming. They don't say "at cause" and "at effect' that i know of. (geez, talk about terms that no one outside the LGATcan understand) but rather 'ego' or 'ego/mind' versus "beingness". Several people, including my husband, have said it is similar to the scientology scale. And yes, i experienced the arrogance of the newly enlightened when I had any so called "negative" emotion - that I just needed to "release'.

It is frustrating. These programs are all so similar, yet my husband does not see in any way that there was covert persuasion. I wish I had taped him when he was 'in beingness" up so he could hear himself and the things he actually believed.

He now sees that Larry Crane lies, that the method does not deliver, but not that there was any covert mind control. Do you think it is necessary to know what happened to you in order to fully recover from it? I'm concerned that it is necessary and also in order to not get taken in again. And BTW, decades ago, my husband was in Scientology for a while - and yet here he goes again. And he owns "The Guru Papers" and "Snapping". I am at a loss.

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skeptic
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-28-2007 06:44 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
I think the concept of going into effect contributes to people in lgats lacking compassion because when someone shows a negative emotion (eg feeling hurt by something you've said) then it is interpreted as that person "going into effect" and something to be dismissed because its just old programming, the other person's sh*t that they should clear rather than making it your problem. Obviously its very selective and open to interpretation when a person may choose to be "at cause" for creating pain in another person that they are in relationship with, and choosing to see it as the other person's sh*t caused by them going into effect.





SaneAgain - Great explanation how lgats make people cold-hearted. Lgats substitute the old programming with one that destroys one's humanity. And, yes, application of it is very selective (crazy). Making anything about the other person's old programming gives you license to be ruthless.

The lgat I wasted time & $$ on (CONtext Associated), while programming us to be UNcompassionate, had us memorize & recite 10 tenets, one of which was, "I am compassionate with myself and others. I remember we are all wounded." So, as we used the "teachings" to dismantle our humanity, we had this handy thought-stopper (gospel) implanted in our minds which assured us that we were not what in reality we were.

CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

skeptic

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exImpact
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 221

Posted: 08-28-2007 07:41 PM Post subject:

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I'm going to post this on the Impact thread, but I think it is relative to the current topic so I'll post here too.

This effect/reaction stuff is interesting. At Impact the logic went like this: People go through life choosing to be victims: “Everyone did this to me and that is why I am the way I am the way I am and that is how I justify being a horrible person to everyone else on the planet."

The Impact fix to this is for a person to consciously choose accountability for everything that has (or will) happen in not only their own lives, but in the lives of the people around them. Then you are not simply in "effect/reaction" to everything, rather you are at "cause", and are a "creator". They then expand this creationism to be the true divine nature of the human being, and on into the idea that all humans are in fact gods.

Now, here is where I began to see their (at that time, “our”) logic break down. Whenever something dysfunctional happened in the trainings such as oh, fornication and adultery among the office staff and the trainees for one real example, lip service was given to "accountability" by those in charge, but not "responsibility" which according to them literally means "the ability to respond". Responsibility is being at effect; and thus a victim, so no no no no. They do not take accountability by saying, "Oh...maybe its the training and our shoddy product that caused this abhorrent, deviant behavior...". No, you will never hear that. I did hear, "Oh, I am ONLY accountable in that I should have been more careful as to who I let into my inner circle."

Essentially saying: “The training is good the training is great we surrender our will as of this date.”

Then of course, I would invariably come to another conflict in this logic when a trainee with a history of molestation would come to Impact. They would get confused when they were told that they allowed the abuse to happen. And always, some random exception to this “logic” would be given, such as “Well, you are and have been accountable for how you have chosen to respond to the abuse, right?” or something to that effect, but they can never directly address the flaw in their logic. If a little helpless kid is a god and is at choice, how could they be considered a victim in fact? And if they can be, why not everyone else? I mean, we are dealing with universal truth here, right? I heard it explained this way more than a few times: "not only are we at choice, but we are also in relationship with the choices of others." Isn't that what being a victim is all about in the first place?!? This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called The Little Soul and the Sun.

Convenient, no? It is no wonder why so many Mormons eat this stuff up…

The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-28-2007 10:24 PM Post subject:

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Hi exImpact,
you wrote:

Quote
exImpact

Then of course, I would invariably come to another conflict in this logic when a trainee with a history of molestation would come to Impact. They would get confused when they were told that they allowed the abuse to happen. And always, some random exception to this “logic” would be given, such as “Well, you are and have been accountable for [i:cbff966326]how[/i:cbff966326] you have chosen to respond to the abuse, right?” or something to that effect, but they can never directly address the flaw in their logic. If a little helpless kid is a god and is at choice, how could they be considered a victim in fact? And if [i:cbff966326]they[/i:cbff966326] can be, why not everyone else? I mean, we are dealing with universal truth here, right? :roll: I heard it explained this way more than a few times: "not only are we at choice, but we are also in relationship with the choices of others." Isn't that what being a victim is all about in the first place?!? This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called [i:cbff966326]The Little Soul and the Sun[/i:cbff966326].

Convenient, no? It is no wonder why so many Mormons eat this stuff up…

The Shadow wrote:

Yep, blaming the victim, AGAIN. You are right, no wonder these types of movements florish. They can do WHATEVER they like, without being held accountable to the standards that us "normal" people are held accountable to. Even in this Forum, there is an individual who can say whatever hurtful things he likes, but when someone criticises him, its "oh poor battered me, I'm just telling people about MY experience, why is everyone picking on me!" Talk about the double standard!

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-28-2007 10:28 PM Post subject:

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"at cause" -- Oh brother! :lol: talk about reinventing the wheel... why not just say "being in the present". sheeesh....

what a load of bullcrap! -- And LGAT grads wonder why we think they have lost their minds!

'shad'

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-28-2007 10:35 PM Post subject: this sounds like my ex-

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Hi skeptic,
your posted:

Quote
skeptic

Quote
SaneAgain
I think the concept of going into effect contributes to people in lgats lacking compassion because when someone shows a negative emotion (eg feeling hurt by something you've said) then it is interpreted as that person "going into effect" and something to be dismissed because its just old programming, the other person's sh*t that they should clear rather than making it your problem. Obviously its very selective and open to interpretation when a person may choose to be "at cause" for creating pain in another person that they are in relationship with, and choosing to see it as the other person's sh*t caused by them going into effect.

SaneAgain - Great explanation how lgats make people cold-hearted. Lgats substitute the old programming with one that destroys one's humanity. And, yes, application of it is very selective (crazy). Making anything about the other person's old programming gives you license to be ruthless.

The lgat I wasted time & $$ on (CONtext Associated), while programming us to be UNcompassionate, had us memorize & recite 10 tenets, one of which was, "I am compassionate with myself and others. I remember we are all wounded." So, as we used the "teachings" to dismantle our humanity, we had this handy thought-stopper (gospel) implanted in our minds which assured us that we were not what in reality we were.

CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

skeptic

yep crazzzzzzzy indeed. This sounds so much like my ex-husband. He was/is so emotionally distant...and everything was always my fault. Finally I had to leave him because I truly thought I was going insane. When I was away from him and in another relationship it was amazing to experience the difference.

It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!

regards,
'shad'

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skeptic
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-29-2007 12:06 AM Post subject: Re: this sounds like my ex-

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The Shadow wrote:
It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!



HAHAHAHA! It's not funny but I like how you put that. It's too true. Lgats take perfectly good people & screw them all up. I think your question is an excellent one: how do lgat-infected people relate to each other? I don't think they really do. They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true.

skeptic

Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 01:23 AM Post subject: Re: this sounds like my ex-

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skeptic wrote:
The Shadow wrote:
It is frightening that the LGATs are producing a whole breed of these people. What I am curious about is how they even manage to relate to each other!



HAHAHAHA! It's not funny but I like how you put that. It's too true. Lgats take perfectly good people & screw them all up. I think your question is an excellent one: how do lgat-infected people relate to each other? I don't think they really do. They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true.

skeptic


I totally agree with this aspect. I had a situation where I was staffing Klemmers third seminar called Heart of a Samurai. One of the facilitators that I strongly admired (Brian Miller). Anyway, I don't need to get into the details, but in staffing with him during this seminar. I was caught completely off guard over what I will call an emptiness of his beingness that I fellt in a interaction during the seminar with him. It had to do with a logistical problem that arose from what the faciltator's told the participants and what actually happened in the actual process of seminar.

I don't need to go into the details of the situation. What struck me the most in this situation was the empty hollowness that I saw in his eyes, and soul in the interaction around the situation.

I admired the passion that he had towards Klemmers philosophy. But in this particular situation. I found out that it was all show and tell for him.

I have looked at this mans life, and have discovered there is much white washing going on in his life in many other areas.

Who cares that he is financially wealthy. Money is not everything, and you can still be a jerk with money.

Having money is not a guage to use in determining sucess in life. Those who feel that money is a guage for determining if someone is sucessful or not in life?

Money creates shallowness in people. Not depth, or integrity.

The virtues that matter in life have nothing to do with money.

It has to do with relationships. How we treat one another. That is the guage we need to use.

Money does help in life. But it is not what makes our life.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 01:37 AM Post subject:

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Brian miller is in his late 40's and he is in and out of relationships in his life. He is a powerfully dynamic facilitator for Klemmer & Associates. Yet he is shallow and empty where intimate relationships go.

If this man is so wonderful as he pretends to be. He would not be a single man as he is at present.

His love life is kept off the radar. But, I have seen enough to know from my being involved in Klemmer that he goes through girlfriends like everything else in his life.

He is a user of people, women, and things. Other than his so called giving of himself as a facilitator in Klemmers seminars. Which is very emotionally appealing in the short run in getting to know him.

Yet, for me. As I got to know him and looked at his life outside of Klemmer.

I found myself wanting nothing to do with his views on life. I do not want to be a white washed tomb in relationships.

All you have in LGAT's participants and staff having relationships with each other is shallowness and that is all.

Because you can't have a relationship with those you can't resolve conflict with.

Relationship comes from being able to resolve conflicts with others.

This is what is missing in LGAT's philosophy. No where on these posts, or in LGAT's has there been a place, or post of how two opposing views on LGAT philosophy has been reached where there is an acceptance of two opposing views and allowed for a relationship to continue inspite of it.

Not so with this website. I am a living testimony of how this website promotes relationship in a healthy manner.

I had a conflict with some members on this forum. It got ugly and it got resolved without reaching an agreement in philosophy attained.

I still hold my views, and those who I had a conflict still hold there views. Yet, we have reached a mutual respect for one another in our differences.

This doesn't happen in LGAT's. But it does happen in the real world, and between people in a healthy environment that embraces negativity without shunning it like LGAT's do.

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-29-2007 07:53 PM Post subject: Re: this sounds like my ex-

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Quote
"skeptic" :"They go through the motions, using the "tools", and fail miserably to have any real connection. I know that I felt that way in the lgat; I had a deep sense that I & others were being phoney. A therapist I once saw said that we were facades interfacing with facades. That rang true. " skeptic[/quote

Hi skeptic;
that makes sense, i see that with my friend sometimes, the "facade", and that is when I don't recognize her, she just seems like a bright-eyed automaton, and I KNOW THIS GIRL WELL! - she even LOOKS different when she is in Landmark/EST mode, parroting away in her ESTie jargon.

So as I read your comment something came to me; feeling a lack of connection must make them feel really empty (spiritually), that explains the zeal with which they go into recruiting mode. That also explains why LGAT Grads keep coming over her, to try to find some real human connection.

Thanks, this gives me a better understanding, and maybe it will help me be more patient with them.

regards,
'shad'

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 08:26 PM Post subject:

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Maxui wrote:

Quote:
So I went to a presentation evening at her request. The thing that got me interested was the concept of cellular memory. I have mentioned before that I am a practitioner of Chinese Gong Fu and the idea that I could "absorb" knowledge into my very cells was extremely interesting to me.


Is this the same 'cellular memory' that L. Ron Hubbard postulated as the basis for engrams?

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 08:57 PM Post subject:

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Question Lady wrote:

Quote:
The concepts sound just like The Release Technique - the mind is like a computer, past programming. They don't say "at cause" and "at effect' that i know of. (geez, talk about terms that no one outside the LGATcan understand) but rather 'ego' or 'ego/mind' versus "beingness". Several people, including my husband, have said it is similar to the scientology scale. And yes, i experienced the arrogance of the newly enlightened when I had any so called "negative" emotion - that I just needed to "release'.

It is frustrating. These programs are all so similar, yet my husband does not see in any way that there was covert persuasion. I wish I had taped him when he was 'in beingness" up so he could hear himself and the things he actually believed.

He now sees that Larry Crane lies, that the method does not deliver, but not that there was any covert mind control. Do you think it is necessary to know what happened to you in order to fully recover from it? I'm concerned that it is necessary and also in order to not get taken in again. And BTW, decades ago, my husband was in Scientology for a while - and yet here he goes again. And he owns "The Guru Papers" and "Snapping". I am at a loss.


Its really good news that he sees through Larry Crane and has lost faith in the method! Does that mean he's stopped going to classes, dumped his releasing buddy, etc? Do you ever notice him using the techniques still, either consciously or unconsciounsly (maybe controlling his breathing, for example?)

My answer to your question, based on what happened to me, would have to be "Yes, it is necessary to know what happened to you to recover from it". Maybe not for everyone, but for me it was / is. And it sounds like your husband never truly shook off the scientology stuff, and maybe that was part of the attraction of The Sedona Method, the 'nice' parts of scientology that he maybe still longed for and / or believed in.

I had to take two steps - first I recognised that it "wasn't working for me" and that the trainers and training were flawed, and I got out. But that was like walking out of a prison but still acting and feeling like a prisoner, because I still believed the core of what they taught me and I had no idea I'd been conditioned. In retrospect that was only about ten percent "out". The rest came from reading this site, and really working at undoing all the ideas and 'automatic' responses and destructive feelings quest gave me. Now I feel about 70% "out". I still catch myself automatically thinking quest stuff, particularly when I am under stress or upset. And I still regularly read things here that I think / do and had forgotten that they actually from quest. The parts that still affect me are the parts that I haven't yet been able to dismantle intellectually, to see what the 'trick' was.

I also know other people who say they are out, but resort to using quest things under stress (for example, in an argument).

What has really helped me is going back and looking at the things I believed and took an interest in before quest. A lot of those things are quite contrary to quest, so I'm lucky. For example, Carl Sagan was one of my favourite authors, before quest. So now it helps to have that to use as a point of reference when I get a quest fog in my brain. I think religion has been similarly helpful to others, for example Rswinters taking a renewed interest and perspective in his christian faith.

Maybe your husband has similar lost / forgotten / over-ridden interests or beliefs, that you could discuss in terms of how contradictory the sedona method is to the other beliefs, and how odd it is that he came to believe all the sedona things so easily? This may lead him to at least consider that he was covertly conditioned. Maybe he's just got a case of "it couldn't happen to me" syndrome? So he reads things like 'snapping' and doesn't recognise himself there? It is a bit bewildering..

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 09:17 PM Post subject:

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exImpact wrote:

Quote:
This is their explanation from the Trainer In Training cult perspective: “Well, we make agreements with each other in the pre-mortal life to teach each other and learn from each other. So in fact, you did agree to be molested, you just don’t remember because the mortal veil has been placed over your eyes that you might not see so you can have this mortal experience. With our assistance, you may remove that veil and forgive your beautiful teachers...”. They reinforce this reasoning from a children’s book (that is sometimes read to them in the Summit training) called The Little Soul and the Sun.


Thank you, ex. Same story at Quest South Africa, although - like all their other 'teachings' - not really explicitly explained, but implied through cryptic comments delivered in the middle of a highly controlled gestalty type atmosphere where the trainees are outnumbered by assistants, who act as if they represent the universe and respond in a way that is supposed to teach the lesson. It becomes more explicitly stated as you do more courses and assist more.

In the basic course it is presented only as "you chose your parents" and with the comment "you don't have to believe it, but if you choose to think that way you are more empowered, so you might as well... it doesn't have to be true" - but later on they make it into an Absolute Truth, Law of the Universe type thing.

This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.

By the way, I've always thought this was a light-worker / star people / ascended masters new agey type philosophy, I didn't figure it came from Mormons?? Though I know that Hinkins guy, the one who started Insight Training in the U.S. and the church of MSIA - movement for spiritual inner awareness - was originally a mormon, so maybe that's how it spread?

Any ideas anyone? LOL!! Maybe I've been a Mormon these past few years, and I didn't even know it! - Sorry, no offense - but I hear they don't allow drinking of tea coffee!? Never mind alcohol!

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skeptic
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-29-2007 09:37 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
This is what gets me really mad. I don't care what crazy things people want to believe, or teach, or put in a book. But when they put it into your psyche in such a deceptive way, that you don't even have a choice as to whether to accept it, or even consciously realising what you've taken on as a belief - or even THAT you've taken on a belief. My blood boils.




This INFURIATES me too! I think it is outrageous and I don't think it should be legal to do this!!!!!!!!!!

Because of this covert/deceptive "technique" I lost & wasted six years, thousands of dollars, part of my mind & personality, and was exploited & manipulated to recruit. The whole thing continues to infuriate me.

I don't know law but it really seems to me that what is wrong about what lgats do is something that crosses a line in terms of lawful behavior between people.

skeptic

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skeptic
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 305

Posted: 08-29-2007 09:41 PM Post subject:

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One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she cannot see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 10:18 PM Post subject:

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Skeptic, you're right, its crazy. You try tell people they're brainwashed to believe they chose everything, and they say no, its not true, I chose to believe that

As for the legal side - you need a license to charge someone for a haircut, or to fix their plumbing, but turning people's minds and personalities inside out -

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 11:25 PM Post subject:

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skeptic wrote:
One more thing, the fact that subjects don't know they've been indoctrinated is what makes it very tricky to deprogram. Also, I have presented a lot of this information to my programmed sister and she CANNOT see what happened. THAT IS SCARY! She takes the lgat at face value and repeatedly tells me that what they taught is valid stuff, straight out of ancient philosophy or current psychology or this or that. What she cannot see is the method used to tweak her brain. She thinks that her behavior change after the "course" was her choice! Scary!!!


This is why I believe that having the discussion on what the LGAT's are doing to participants is like what my therapist has told me. You can't understand a trauma bond from within the trauma bond. Meaning you can't understand why there is a conflict from within the conflict.

It is a given that LGAT's are brainwashing us in these seminars. Those of us who have undergone this brainwashing and have come out of it. We know we have been brainwashed by our LGAT experience.

Even thought this forum is helpful in exposing these LGAT's. I have discoverd the most helpful way to face the brainwashing wihtin me, and to deprogram from its affect upon my life.

I have had to get very down and dirty with myself. I have had to face what it was in me that attracted me to an LGAT to find the answers that I heard Klemmer had for my life.

I think if we can start to become brutally honest about what each of us was searching for as we got lured to the light of these LGAT's in our individual lifes.

If we don't start sharing from that aspect on this forum. I believe we will sound like a bunch of complainers that are disgruntled with our LGAT experience.

There is much on this forum, and much in the many experiences that expose the lies and deception of LGAT's for readers.

I would like to hear from the many members who are mad at their LGAT experience as I am. I would love to hear honesty about what was the magnetic pull that was attracted within each of us to blindly allow ourselves to be so brainwashed.

Mine was the relational pain that was between my mother an me. Plus the pain of what I kept creating in marriages as I kept marrying my mother and running into the extreme emotional pain from the abuse coming from them.

I am finally seperating myself from the prime source of abuse in my life. My Mother!

In doing so. I am identifying the magnet within myself that pulled me to my destructive LGAT experience.

Well others please share about this aspect in your own life? I would really like to hear this, and believe it will help expose these LGAT's for what they are.

Please share.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-29-2007 11:38 PM Post subject:

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What drew me to Klemmer was the false hope of relational bliss that could be created in my life as I applied Klemmers philosophy in my life.

Well, it was just that "False Hope".

The reality is there are people that are abusive, and it is not a matter of changing the meaning I am placing on behavior.

Abuse is abuse and is abuse no matter how you slice it. The only answer to abuse relationally is to remove yourself from the person who is abusive.

I never learned this aspect within my life and how to safeguard myself agianst abusive peole. (Which this aspect is learned in the dynamics of being parented).

Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is extremely destructive to someone with my past abuse and trauma in my life. It intensifies my attachment to abusive people.

Thus it is why I let Klemmer influence me to remarry an abuser that I divorced the first time from seeing the abuse.

Klemmer made me believe I was wrong in divorcing her the first time.

I am discovering this is absolutely absurd. Just as Klemmer and LGAT philosophy is messed up and is wrong. I was wrong in remarrying an abusive women thinking I could change the meaning on her behavior.

Plus the worst one of all was how I could change the meaning on the abuse coming from my mother.

This is not so. I am finally getting to the core of all this abuse, and trauma in my life.

Finally calling abuse what it is in my life. ABUSE. I know longer need to accept it from people.

Regardless of what LGAT's say about the meaning, or the cause of...

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-29-2007 11:45 PM Post subject:

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Rs, you're walking a very fine line here. Anyone can look at their life and find a problem that might have pushed them towards an lgat. But what you are saying is leaning quite heavily towards the idea of 'being at cause' for getting into an lgat. If others want to do that, that is okay by me. But I will not, and I don't like the tone you're taking on this, telling others not to sound like they're complaining. I got suckered, I suffered, and I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life in a public forum, just in case it MIGHT be relevant and just in case someone might think I'm complaining too much instead of "taking responsibility". F*ck that. I've had that line pushed down my throat for years, its not what I'm here for.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-30-2007 12:44 AM Post subject:

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Rs, I'm not trying to be rude to you. But you're basically telling people here to stand up and 'share' and 'be at cause' for their experience. Its like being right back in a training room. Lgats con people, whether they were searching or not, had problems or not. If you think its relevant, fine, but why insult everyone else? Why is that every time you find something that helps YOU, anyone else who doesn't want to do it has something wrong with them? Don't want to do genesis program? Oh, you're christianity-bashing. Don't want to make it your own fault you got into an lgat? Oh, you're not being honest, you're not digging deep to find your own dirt, you're just complaining. What do you think you're doing when you talk about your mother? Is that not complaining?? What makes that any different, if you want to categorize everything as complaining?

Any person on earth can find some problem to hang the lgat on. Anyone. But the fact is, people get into lgats because they are RECRUITED and CONNED. They'll find any hook in any person, and use it. You want to analyse your hook, go ahead. But why MUST people share? Why don't you RESPECT how much people want to share, and in what areas, instead of making it out to be some kind of crime not to share everything? Is this not your programming talking? Everyone must share, everyone must take responsibility for how they created the lgat experience in their life???

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 12:53 AM Post subject: share, yes

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Hi rswinters1,
I keep getting timed out, so I will have to respond to your comments in segments.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. I will eloborate more on this after I have typed a reply in (word), and paste it here...

I agree with most of what you say, however, I think you are not giving yourself enough credit.

It is only past experience, and lack of money, that kept me from getting sucked into Landmark, so I don't mean to make myself seem smarter or emotionally healther than anyone else. We all have issues, and it just depends on how vulnerable we are at the time of exposure (to the LGATs) whether or not we take the bait.

take care, and keep sharing, I do believe that it will help heal the wounds, to know that you are so not alone in this. - but you already know that.

more later,
regards,
'shad'

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-30-2007 01:00 AM Post subject: conditioning

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Hi SaneAgain,

Obviously the conditioning runs deep. It seems it will take time for people who have spent a long time in the LGAT groups to go back to who they were originally. But of course, none of us ever stay the same. Life's experience change us, may unalterably. The trick is to get back to one's intinsic self, that child who came out of the proverbial 'womb'....to know that person before he/she was influenced by society around us.

I think is must be incredibly difficult, as I am sure there are 'triggers' that throw one right back to where they were when they first got free from the LGAT. It must be like riding on a roller-coaster. One minute you think one thing, next minute you start second-guessing yourself. And I think that is why Grads, and current members of Landmark/EST, Insignt, Impact et all, keep coming here and posting. They are trying to destabilize those who have excaped the clutches of those 'gangsters'.

so take care, all of us, we must all take care of each other and ourselves.

regards,
'shad'

Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 02:20 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgian...

Please don't take this issue and create a huge stink over it. I shared what I shared and it was not intended as you took it.

Please keep our posts in a place of consideraton of all views shared with a respect that you want for yours as well.

I have heard your views very aggressively shared on this forum. You are very vocal in your views as I am.

Please do not take our interactions back to a place of being stuck between us.

I will take another look at my posts. I will consider what you have shared.

Please consider that your anger at LGAT's is coloring alot of what you hear in my words.

Because I am not saying alot of what you state is being intended by by posts.

We don't need to take this back to a place of being stuck between us again.

So, please take a breath and consider that your perception of my posts may not be what is the intent behind my posts.

I have appreciated the many posts that have been shared, and I am on the same game page as you in the purpose of exposing LGAT's.

I am not looking to fight with you SaneAgian. I am looking to cooperate with you in exposing LGAT's by any, and all means available to us.

This is my intent, and is my only intent on this forum.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 03:00 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
Rs, you're walking a very fine line here. Anyone can look at their life and find a problem that might have pushed them towards an lgat. But what you are saying is leaning quite heavily towards the idea of 'being at cause' for getting into an lgat. If others want to do that, that is okay by me. But I will not, and I don't like the tone you're taking on this, telling others not to sound like they're complaining. I got suckered, I suffered, and I'm not going to go into the details of my personal life in a public forum, just in case it MIGHT be relevant and just in case someone might think I'm complaining too much instead of "taking responsibility". F*ck that. I've had that line pushed down my throat for years, its not what I'm here for.


SaneAgian... I consider you my friend. Please check your anger. I am not saying this at all.

I have tried to allow for your anger on many interactions between us. Please check it at the door, and quit flying off the handle like this....

I am not trying to do as you are stating in my posts. Stop puting words,and intentions in my mouth that are not being said.

We both have been hurt by our LGAT experience. Please allow for another to walk on a path of healing that is not the same as yours in every detail...

I am your friend, and at the same time. Ask for you to please stop the anger, and allow for others to post things as you demand to post yourself.

We do not need to fight on this matter...

I will take what you said into consideration on future posts. I will evaluate what I say, and post based on what I conclude in my evaluation.

Thank for sharing what you have shared. Now please evaluate your anger, and its intensity. Evaluate if your overreacting on this matter.

Because in my opinion. You are overreacting from your own issues with your personal LGAT experience. I believe you are projecting your anger onto me in this issue.

I do understand though, and will take note to be more carefull in how I post. But it still may be in a manner that you don't like.

I have read many of your posts that I have not liked as well. I have kept my mouth shut as I understood your anger at your LGAT experiences.

Please do so with me.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 03:15 AM Post subject:

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I have just took a quick look at what I posted. I do not see where I was saying what is being stated was said in my posts.

All I was doing was sharing about myself, and asking others to share accordingly.

I did not slam what has been shared by many on this forum about how messed up LGAT's are being.

I shared from my experience, and what I am discovering. I asked for others to share as well.

So, I am sorry. I will not let my posts be so ripped upon by stating an intention that is not within my posts, or in my heart.

I am after helping people recover from LGAT's as well as desiring to expose the lies of them.

I see healing from these LGAT's just as important as exposing them.

I am not telling no one to share what they don't want. I am asking however for people to share what is being discovered as what lured them into an LGAT.

Not to do harm, but to allow for healing not just for them. But for us all.

I am sharing so vulnerably as I have been with the intention of helping those damaged by LGAT's to pursue healing emotionally.

Yes being angry is part of healing. I just don't want to remain stuck in anger in my life.

I want to move onto healing emotionally. This may not be the forum for this part of the process of my recovery from Klemmer. I may have to accept this as so by finding another way to discuss things that I am learning about myself, and what led me to be lured into an LGAT in my life.

So. This may not be the place to have these types of conversations with people.

I can accept that. So, we will see what develops here.

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exImpact
Senior Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 221

Posted: 08-30-2007 11:52 AM Post subject:

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It is my opinion Sane Again's anger is fully justified. I suggest you find a way to deal with it. I also suggest that you find a way to accept that some of what you share in these forums is not universally held and there are some views that you have that may cause anger in people. Sane Again is one of the few people on these boards that continues to contribute content of real value, in my opinion she does not need a personal moderator.

You say you allow for all perspectives and all degrees of experiences to be shared concerning LGAT's, and yet you asked her to "check her anger". Isn't this hypocritical?

Also RS, I understand you wish to draw parrallels between the practices and damage brought on by all LGAT's. That is fine, but I am noticing an excess of this, and it seems to be having the effect of "going off topic" for the individual thread in question. I mean, I agree, you are right, but the horse is dead, and he's been dead a long time. Your last four extensive posts have had nothing to do with Quest in South Africa, if you want to have a personal discussion with the author of this thread, the least you could do is have it through the PM system.

Just a suggestion.

well...suggestions

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billy-g
Junior Member


Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 2
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posted: 08-30-2007 02:17 PM Post subject: A right to be angry

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As mentioned previously in my one only posting to this board, I have not had a personal experience with an LGAT, other that watching the pain and suffering of a close friend who has. Consequently, while I read the board with a great deal of interest and sympathy, I do not feel I have a right to post. Usually I do not, sometimes I do. This is one of those times.

I agree with exImpact that SaneAgain’s anger is fully justified.

My friend had done nothing more than become acquainted with somebody who was heavily involved in an LGAT. Outwardly a charming person; intelligent, well spoken, sociable - the kind of person who instills a feeling of confidence. Sadly too, persistent and persuasive and zealous (in an inoffensive way of course). My friend was conned, deceived, misled and lied to over a long period of time, and slowly but surely baited into attending the LGAT. Not to fix something that was wrong, not to help resolve some urgent and pressing negative influence or experience, but to add another positive dimension to life’s experience.

By the time my friend had witnessed the charming bait strike a women on the course hard across the face and then jump on top of her when she fell to the floor, in a true show of absolute rage (to help this other woman of course), it was too late. The damage had been done. The abuse had been administered, the brainwashing had been achieved and the fear had been instilled. It’s absolutely sickening and it is absolutely undeserved. To imply that people must look deep inside themselves and identify the dots that need to be connected in order to understand what they did to deserve these negative and awful experiences is insulting in the extreme, and totally missing the point (as I see it) that these LGAT’s are highly skilled in the art of lying and deception.

Just some thoughts from an outsider looking in.

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Brad69
Senior Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 165
Location: South Africa
Posted: 08-30-2007 02:25 PM Post subject:

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It seems to me that the foremost claim LGATs make is that they teach people how to empower themselves.

Nothing could be further from the truth!

People attending a course for the first time might have a reason or two for doing so - obstacles or opposition that they perceive in their lives - and they hope to find ways to overcome them.

Those who have attended a course - and especially those that have gone beyond the first course - will notice, if they look back to those courses, how, the further they advanced, so more and more "obstacles" were brought to their attention.

The LGATs create more obstacles and opposition than a course attendee might have been aware of in his/her life before starting a course. They do this to create the need for even more courses.

It's interesting to note how many more courses are made known the further a person advances into the LGAT trap.

The "at cause" argument used by the LGATs is a disingenuous method of getting course-goers to believe that they are at fault for things that are not working in their lives.

And with the breakdown/build-up method these LGATs use - with a heavy emphasis on breakdown - they use the "at cause" argument to entrap a course-goer.

By drilling into the heads of course attendees how flawed they are, then blaming them for all the problems they have in their lives, the LGATs, in essence, are able to keep their victims aware of their problems at all times because the course-goers would be more aware of what is not working in their lives than any other person on the face of this earth.

Often, LGATs will tell a course-goer to cut something out of his/her life if it is not working. Again, this is not empowering.

Being a South African, I was reminded just yesterday, when a statue of Nelson Mandela was unveiled in London about the power of engaging our challenges with love, contrary to the ways the LGATs teach. Let me elaborate:

When Mandela was released from prison, after spending 27 years behind bars, fighting an unjust system, he re-entered mainstream life with an incredible outlook of acceptance towards everyone in South Africa, even towards those people who had so wrongly imprisoned him and suppressed the majority of the country's people under a system that treated them as second-class citizens.

At the time of his release, there was a lot of uncertainty about what the future held for South Africa. Over the decades of apartheid a massive amount of distrust had built up between the different racial groups.

Mandela could have isolated himself in a safe place, surrounding himself with "his people" and choosing not to work with the whites on a united future for all South Africans. He didn't do that, however. He welcomed every person equally to be part of the new democracy, and by doing that he empowered himself and the country.

He put his loving energy out to everybody, including those opposed to them, and in so doing he disarmed their fears.

That approach has made him incredibly powerful in the most beautiful sense of the world.

Mandela's actions were expansive. As we know, positive energy is expansive.

Today, because he faced his challenges with love and respect for all, Nelson Mandela is revered as one of the great leaders of our time,

LGAT teachings, on the other hand, propogate a method that leads to people making their world's smaller; essentially, instead of dealing with problems, converts are taught to distance themselves from them.

If there is someone or who is causing a course-goer stress, the advice is often to remove that negative from the course attendee's life.

That mirrors an apartheid system.

The problems don't go away. They are still there.

"Divide and conquer" seems to be what is at work here because the more LGATs can isolate course-goers from their traditional support - including isolating the victims from their true selves - the greater the influence will be that the LGATs can exert over them.

Isolating someone is known as the first step an abuser takes in an abusive relationship.

With converts/victims making their world's smaller, they are contracting their energy, which is a negative energy.

That is NOT empowering. It is disempowering.

Freedom of spirit - empowerment - involves being able to face the world, everything and everyone, with optimism.

When a person is empowered, he/she feels a connection to all things, and few things are able to knock that person off track. As an example, think of the way a

Quote



Brad69
Senior Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 165
Location: South Africa
Posted: 08-30-2007 02:25 PM Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the foremost claim LGATs make is that they teach people how to empower themselves.

Nothing could be further from the truth!

People attending a course for the first time might have a reason or two for doing so - obstacles or opposition that they perceive in their lives - and they hope to find ways to overcome them.

Those who have attended a course - and especially those that have gone beyond the first course - will notice, if they look back to those courses, how, the further they advanced, so more and more "obstacles" were brought to their attention.

The LGATs create more obstacles and opposition than a course attendee might have been aware of in his/her life before starting a course. They do this to create the need for even more courses.

It's interesting to note how many more courses are made known the further a person advances into the LGAT trap.

The "at cause" argument used by the LGATs is a disingenuous method of getting course-goers to believe that they are at fault for things that are not working in their lives.

And with the breakdown/build-up method these LGATs use - with a heavy emphasis on breakdown - they use the "at cause" argument to entrap a course-goer.

By drilling into the heads of course attendees how flawed they are, then blaming them for all the problems they have in their lives, the LGATs, in essence, are able to keep their victims aware of their problems at all times because the course-goers would be more aware of what is not working in their lives than any other person on the face of this earth.

Often, LGATs will tell a course-goer to cut something out of his/her life if it is not working. Again, this is not empowering.

Being a South African, I was reminded just yesterday, when a statue of Nelson Mandela was unveiled in London about the power of engaging our challenges with love, contrary to the ways the LGATs teach. Let me elaborate:

When Mandela was released from prison, after spending 27 years behind bars, fighting an unjust system, he re-entered mainstream life with an incredible outlook of acceptance towards everyone in South Africa, even towards those people who had so wrongly imprisoned him and suppressed the majority of the country's people under a system that treated them as second-class citizens.

At the time of his release, there was a lot of uncertainty about what the future held for South Africa. Over the decades of apartheid a massive amount of distrust had built up between the different racial groups.

Mandela could have isolated himself in a safe place, surrounding himself with "his people" and choosing not to work with the whites on a united future for all South Africans. He didn't do that, however. He welcomed every person equally to be part of the new democracy, and by doing that he empowered himself and the country.

He put his loving energy out to everybody, including those opposed to them, and in so doing he disarmed their fears.

That approach has made him incredibly powerful in the most beautiful sense of the world.

Mandela's actions were expansive. As we know, positive energy is expansive.

Today, because he faced his challenges with love and respect for all, Nelson Mandela is revered as one of the great leaders of our time,

LGAT teachings, on the other hand, propogate a method that leads to people making their world's smaller; essentially, instead of dealing with problems, converts are taught to distance themselves from them.

If there is someone or who is causing a course-goer stress, the advice is often to remove that negative from the course attendee's life.

That mirrors an apartheid system.

The problems don't go away. They are still there.

"Divide and conquer" seems to be what is at work here because the more LGATs can isolate course-goers from their traditional support - including isolating the victims from their true selves - the greater the influence will be that the LGATs can exert over them.

Isolating someone is known as the first step an abuser takes in an abusive relationship.

With converts/victims making their world's smaller, they are contracting their energy, which is a negative energy.

That is NOT empowering. It is disempowering.

Freedom of spirit - empowerment - involves being able to face the world, everything and everyone, with optimism.

When a person is empowered, he/she feels a connection to all things, and few things are able to knock that person off track. As an example, think of the way a person beginning a new and loving relationship views the world - life is wonderful.

When a person is disempowered, he/she views the world with suspicion and withdraws from it. He/she lives in fear.

The LGAT philosophy encourages this fear-based view of the world.

Love, it is said, is the strongest power in the world. At the other end of the scale, fear - the opposite of love (and not "hate" as many mistakenly believe) - is the most disempowering power there is.

It is this fear that is crucial to the "success" of LGATs in claiming more victims.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 08:37 PM Post subject:

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I came to this website very angry over my LGAT involvement and the destruction it brought to my life by applying its philosophy to my life.

I have worked through much of the anger and have seen how all LGAT's are carbon copies of each other. The destruction in my life is not unique as it is very similar to many members who have shared on this website.

I still can get very angry at these aspects around LGAT's.

Although now the focus in my life is to pursue emotional healing in my life. I am done hanging out in my anger over what was done in the past.

I will continue to expose LGAT's in the way I choose to do so. I understand the anger that is held towards LGAT's by many on this thread.

I am done with this anger consuming me though.

What others do with their anger is up to them. Anger is part of the healing process in recovering from an LGAT experience.

Letting that anger remain dominate in my life is no longer an option.

I am looking at myself, and getting the healing for myself as needed.

What is done with my sharing about my healing journey on this forum is up to the individual reader.

For those who are still needing to remain in the extreme anger over their individual LGAT experience? That is for you to decide.

It is not for you to decide for me to remain angry though.

So I am sorry. I choose not to remain in anger in my life. I understand others anger as needed for them to heal.

Just don't expect me to stay in the anger is all.

I can expose LGAT's without being so angry.

I am sorry. We are at another impasse here.

I will not leave like last time. But, I will not let your anger dictate how I share either.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 09:37 PM Post subject:

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Even in my faith there is no room to blame the devil for my behavior. In the bible it states that the devil tempts me with what is within me, and entices those parts of me with temptation. If what I am being tempted to do is not something that can entice me? It will not be a temptation to do.
I understood this in my life way before I even heard of LGAT’s in my life.
This same bible also tells me to be angry in a proper and healthy way. Not a destructive way.
So, even though some are not choosing to look at themselves in a manner of identifying what was within themselves that allowed for the LGAT magnet to attract and lure them in.
I will not attack this in people. But, I will continue on my emotional healing journey in my life with looking at myself, and sharing in my posts from this very needed and healthy critical analysis of myself.
As I continue to expose the lies, and deceptions of LGAT’s on this forum. I will at the same time not make excuses for my being deceived by Klemmer in my life. Regardless of how deceptive they truly are.
Yes, Klemmer is and was deceptive along with all the other LGAT’s out there. At the same time, I will take the proper responsibility for addressing myself and what was within me that created the magnetic pull that drew me to such a messed up philosophy in my life.
I have vented as needed on this forum. It is now time to heal in my life. There are some who are on this forum who are just as angry now as when I started on this forum.
I will accept another person choice to be angry, and to share from that place.
I will not allow for my posts to continue in being posted from this place though.
I do not know what others are after on this forum?
For me it is two things:
1. To expose LGAT’s
2. To help others recover from their LGAT experience.
They are both entwined for me. Remaining in anger beyond what is healthy and proper emotionally is not the way to accomplish this in my life.
So, my sharing on this forum will hold these two objectives as I share. I will not let anger consume me beyond what is needed in my recovery journey.

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rrmoderator
Moderator


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 2493
Location: Jersey City
Posted: 08-30-2007 09:51 PM Post subject:

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Rswinters:

You have repeatedly gone off topic.

Focus like a laser on the specific topic of this thread or leave.

Preaching your religious views is against the rules.

Any further going on about your religion will result in banning.

This is the very last warning you will be given.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 12:41 AM Post subject:

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rrmoderator wrote:
Rswinters:

You have repeatedly gone off topic.

Focus like a laser on the specific topic of this thread or leave.

Preaching your religious views is against the rules.

Any further going on about your religion will result in banning.

This is the very last warning you will be given.


Rick. So for me to remain on topic requires me to only share in an angry way about LGAT's and not what is helping me recover from it in my life?

Is anger the only recognizable topic on this forum?

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 12:51 AM Post subject:

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If anger at LGAT's is all that is wanted to be heard on this forum?

There is no need for Rick to ban me.

The anger is needed, and I recognize the need for it in recovery.

But, I am at the crossroad in my recovery where this anger is needing to be transformed to something more productive in my life.

Staying this angry over my LGAT experiece is not helping me. It is hurting me more than helping me now.

My anger was needed at first. Now it is needing to change in me for my own personal recovery to continue.

I do not want to remain stuck in this anger in my own life.

I hope to walk the path of recovery with you all. But not the path of anger as some are preferring to remain on.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-31-2007 01:46 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters, I welcomed you to post on this thread about relationships, within the context of lgats. That was in order to be gracious so as to overcome our previous disagreement in which you caused a conflict by preaching your religious views and making unpleasant personal comments about me, and also because I thought you would have the good sense and common courtesy to keep whatever you had to say relevant.

You have over-stayed your welcome and abused my hospitality, so-to-speak, on this thread.

You have gone way-off topic in a very self-centered fashion, you have made nasty personal comments about me and you have also broken your promise to me that you would not preach religion in conversation with me or on my threads.

Please start a new thread, unless you have something specific to say about quest. Not your general lgat theories, not your anger theories, not your therapy, not your personal opinion of me and not your religion.

Thank you.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 04:53 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
Rswinters, I welcomed you to post on this thread about relationships, within the context of lgats. That was in order to be gracious so as to overcome our previous disagreement in which you caused a conflict by preaching your religious views and making unpleasant personal comments about me, and also because I thought you would have the good sense and common courtesy to keep whatever you had to say relevant.

You have over-stayed your welcome and abused my hospitality, so-to-speak, on this thread.

You have gone way-off topic in a very self-centered fashion, you have made nasty personal comments about me and you have also broken your promise to me that you would not preach religion in conversation with me or on my threads.

Please start a new thread, unless you have something specific to say about quest. Not your general lgat theories, not your anger theories, not your therapy, not your personal opinion of me and not your religion.

Thank you.


I honestly thought I was being considerate in my posts. No need to stay in a debate over this.

I will leave things as they lay. Thanks for the oportunity to share agian.

Thanks.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 11:04 AM Post subject:

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rrmoderator wrote:
Rswinters:

You have repeatedly gone off topic.

Focus like a laser on the specific topic of this thread or leave.

Preaching your religious views is against the rules.

Any further going on about your religion will result in banning.

This is the very last warning you will be given.


I am focused on exposing LGAT's and the recovery from them.

Is this not the subject matter of this forum?

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-31-2007 12:55 PM Post subject:

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Its the topic of the whole forum, not this particular thread.

Here is a specific thread on recovery:

[board.culteducation.com]

Aside from that lecturing other people from the bible on whether or not to be angry is not part of lgats or recovering them. Nor is telling people to be responsible and dig deep to find the dirt that you think got them into an lgat part of the recovery process. Considering this type of thinking is an lgat means of manipulating people, it is actually a counter-productive idea, as it entrenches lgat thinking. It is also contrary to the research which shows very clearly that all types of people get recruited for all types of reasons. From the FAQ section on this board:

[www.culteducation.com]

Quote:
What types of people are recruited by cults or become involved in potentially unsafe or destructive groups and relationships?

All types of people. Individuals from strong and troubled families, with and without histories of psychological problems. People who have had and have not had drug problems, with a solid or weak religious background, the educated and uneducated, the wealthy, poor, middle class, intelligent and not so intelligent.

One of the myths about cult involvement is that a certain type of person is more vulnerable. Another myth is that healthy, strong, intelligent well-educated people from good families don't become involved. Or, that somehow if someone has clearly defined religious convictions they cannot be recruited. These theories have never been proven or substantiated through research. In fact, repeated studies continue to indicate a wide and varied background for cult recruits.

Frankly, cults are quite good at persuasion and indoctrination; it's their stock and trade. And most people simply are not prepared, either through education and personal experience, to be sensitive to the possible impact of cult methodology.


Methods used by Quest and similar lgats to recruit people are relevant to this topic.

Rswinters, it seems you feel you have progressed to a stage where you are not interested in things like brainwashing techniques and recruitment techniques and want to gloss over these things to get to your personal problems. If you are bored with that, please start a new thread. If you don't like anger, start an anger-free thread.

Remember that people reading this particular thread, which is about quest, may not be at that stage, and may not have read the entire board yet. They are still learning, they are still interested in these aspects, even if you aren't. They may also be be angry, and want to express anger. Anger is a symptom of PTSD and PTSD is a known effect of lgats. You were left in peace to express anger, very vociferously, for about six months. I don't think its fair to try to stop others doing the same.

I don't like bible-thumping on this board or on this thread because it feeds into another misperception about cults, which is that only narrow-minded religious fanatics have a problem with them, because they are scared of the competition and they see anything outside their particular church or belief system as the anti-christ or equivalent. The reason for this is that a lot of churches are involved in anti-cult activity.

But lgats are a problem to EVERYONE, not only religious people and not for religious reasons. They are a problem because they use deceptive business practices to con people out of money and control them using extremely abusive covert and overt psychological manipulation. That has nothing to do with religion.

If you feel you're above being angry and discussing the methods of lgats and are in an advanced healing stage, please use the specific section of the board provided for that (recovery from cults, link provided above) or start a new thread.

As for anger, I don't consider saying "f*ck that" to a bad idea to be anger. More like mild irritation. When I am angry I write in bold, large font and with some @#$%#$%#$ type symbols, and maybe some red thrown in. I might also get a little personal, not enough to be considered flaming but enough that I'm sure you'd rather not hear it. If you want a demo, try writing one more off-topic or bible-thumping comment on this thread.

rrmoderator
Moderator


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 2493
Location: Jersey City
Posted: 08-31-2007 04:57 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain:

Yes.

This thread is essentially about "Methods used by Quest."

It is not about anyone's personal religious beliefs used in recovery.

That focus is off topic.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 11:10 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
...Remember that people reading this particular thread, which is about quest, may not be at that stage, and may not have read the entire board yet. They are still learning, they are still interested in these aspects, even if you aren't. They may also be be angry, and want to express anger. Anger is a symptom of PTSD and PTSD is a known effect of lgats. You were left in peace to express anger, very vociferously, for about six months. I don't think its fair to try to stop others doing the same...


SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-31-2007 11:35 PM Post subject: LGATs, et al

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Hi All,

just FYI
In their abstract Ofshe and Singer write:

" Althoughh the evidence is limited, it suggest that physical brutality or deprivation, even when combined with interpersonal coercion, did not regularly cause emotional breakdown or psychotic episodes. There is a notable absence of report sof frequent psychotic breaks among American military prisoners and among improsioned Westerners in China. When [b:6d6f18650b]dramatic, emotional reactions are reported, they invariably occur in violence-free settings in which targest are coerced by peers who are thier intimates (Hinkel and Wolfe, 1956, 160)."

'shad'

[/b:6d6f18650b]

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-31-2007 11:44 PM Post subject: LGATs

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sheesh, look at all my typos!!!

sorry, I am posting in segments because I keep getting "timed out"...

further, Ofshe and Singer report in "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques" ...

"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?

further:
"Peer group members have the ability to focus their criticisms on signifant aspects of the target's self and to repeatedly arouse guilt and anxiety. In these programs, it appears that aversive arousal, coupled with peer rejection, became the driving force thorugh which the target was coerced."

I have noticed with my friend that the most obscure things set her off, and from one minute to the next I have no idea that something that was previously benign now becomes something that will cause her to burst into tears or get angry. And since she won't talk about her experience in the Landmark/EST courses, I have no idea what is going to set her off next. I feel like I am walking on eggshells.

'shad'

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ajinajan
Senior Member


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 416

Posted: 08-31-2007 11:49 PM Post subject: Re: LGATs

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The Shadow wrote:
sheesh, look at all my typos!!!

sorry, I am posting in segments because I keep getting "timed out"...

further, Ofshe and Singer report in "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques" ...

"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?

further:
"Peer group members have the ability to focus their criticisms on signifant aspects of the target's self and to repeatedly arouse guilt and anxiety. In these programs, it appears that aversive arousal, coupled with peer rejection, became the driving force thorugh which the target was coerced."

I have noticed with my friend that the most obscure things set her off, and from one minute to the next I have no idea that something that was previously benign now becomes something that will cause her to burst into tears or get angry. And since she won't talk about her experience in the Landmark/EST courses, I have no idea what is going to set her off next. I feel like I am walking on eggshells.

'shad'


There are a few books on cults that look interesting and might address some of these problems with dealing with cult members and coping as an ex-cult member:

Recovery from Cults, Langone and contributors

Take back your Life, Lalich

Cults in our Midst (make sure to get the 1995 edition for the info on Landmark Education), by the two-time nobel prize nominee, Dr. Margaret Singer

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 12:13 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters wrote:

Quote:

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters


God bless me? If I may quote Richard Dawkins:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

And if you don't believe that, go read your bible. Its all there.

Elena has already explained to you that its rude to bless people who don't share your faith.

Thank you for your excellent demonstration of hypocrisy.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 12:27 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters wrote:

Quote:
Even in my faith there is no room to blame the devil for my behavior.


Very impressive. I don't blame the easter bunny for my behaviour.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 09-01-2007 12:28 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
Rswinters wrote:

Quote:

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters


God bless me? If I may quote Richard Dawkins:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

And if you don't believe that, go read your bible. Its all there.

Elena has already explained to you that its rude to bless people who don't share your faith.

Thank you for your excellent demonstration of hypocrisy.

Rswinters wrote:

SaneAgian. I will not engage your anger...

Have a good day...

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 01:09 AM Post subject:

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Rs, I hope what you're saying is true. You keep saying you're leaving, and then you come back. If you want to leave, leave. If you don't want to "engage", don't post. Very simple. Three pages later...

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question lady
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 162
Location: USA
Posted: 09-01-2007 02:20 AM Post subject:

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Quote:

Quote
"Rswinters1
SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters


RS, It's not a competition. There are no deadlines on stages of recovery, and nor on anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, perhaps for a very long time, if not forever. It's not for you to decide what is best for someone else.

You know that I am a person of faith in God RS, and I agree that to conclude with a "God Bless" for someone who has stated their lack of interest in your religion is rather rude. It almost sounds like you are trying to zing Sane while trying to appear above it.

I care about you. The people on this board care about you. But sometimes caring means pointing out some things that may be alienating your allies.

I have tried to be gentle in saying this. I hope I have. Everyone here has been hurt in some way by an LGAT. Let's keep the focus on helping each other.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 02:28 AM Post subject:

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Shadow, thanks for this, it is very interesting:

Quote:
"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?



This is useful and interesting, and I appreciate you posting this. Its also just general boundaries, I think. If there's anything on earth that violates a person's boundaries, its an lgat. But you probably know more about that than I do, I hate throwing around psychological terms that I don't really understand but I don't know how else to say what I mean

Just a side-note - ajinajan - thanks, I've the got the Margaret Singer book (sadly without the Landmark details, but with more comments on what lengths lgats go to cover up their evils) and one of the warning she gives about recovery, is that therapy can be not helpful or counter-productive, if the therapist doesn't understand cults and rather than focussing on the damage caused by the cult, takes the person down the garden path into childhood issues, which may or may not be relevant. Worth bearing in mind if anyone is busy finding a therapist, make sure they know what they're doing, and if they don't, as exImpact says, educate them!

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 09-01-2007 03:00 AM Post subject:

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question lady wrote:
Quote:

Quote
"Rswinters1
SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters



RS, It's not a competition. There are no deadlines on stages of recovery, and nor on anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, perhaps for a very long time, if not forever. It's not for you to decide what is best for someone else.

You know that I am a person of faith in God RS, and I agree that to conclude with a "God Bless" for someone who has stated their lack of interest in your religion is rather rude. It almost sounds like you are trying to zing Sane while trying to appear above it.

I care about you. The people on this board care about you. But sometimes caring means pointing out some things that may be alienating your allies.

I have tried to be gentle in saying this. I hope I have. Everyone here has been hurt in some way by an LGAT. Let's keep the focus on helping each other.

Rswinters wrote:

The projected anger is definitely alienating me. That is for sure. Anger is proper when it is kept in check. Not as it is unchecked lately...

I am sorry to disagree with some of you here... Anger within reason and purpose is very needed...

Beyond that is destructive.

The anger that goes unchecked on this website is extremely destructive.

I am done with my words, and intentions being so twisted by this unchecked anger.

It is time to look in the mirror folks. Don't demand what your not willing to follow in guidelines.

I am not angry here. I am just done with temper tantrums...

This is where I am at on this matter. I will be remaining on this forum, but will not be engaging the anger.

I am sure there will be loud posts that will rip what I have said apart...

But rest assured. I am done with the unchecked anger on this forum.

I will not leave in anger as I did previously. Because I am not angry here.

I am done with others anger being projected upon me though.

Have a good day you all.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 09-01-2007 03:09 AM Post subject:

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separating the quotes messed up. Here is what I posted.

The projected anger is definitely alienating me. That is for sure. Anger is proper when it is kept in check. Not as it is unchecked lately...

I am sorry to disagree with some of you here... Anger within reason and purpose is very needed...

Beyond that is destructive.

The anger that goes unchecked on this website is extremely destructive.

I am done with my words, and intentions being so twisted by this unchecked anger.

It is time to look in the mirror folks. Don't demand what your not willing to follow in guidelines.

I am not angry here. I am just done with temper tantrums...

This is where I am at on this matter. I will be remaining on this forum, but will not be engaging the anger.

I am sure there will be loud posts that will rip what I have said apart...

But rest assured. I am done with the unchecked anger on this forum.

I will not leave in anger as I did previously. Because I am not angry here.

I am done with others anger being projected upon me though.

Have a good day you all.

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formerimpactgrad
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 107

Posted: 09-01-2007 07:44 AM Post subject:

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Rsw,

I have decided against criticizing your posts on multiple occasions because you have a tendency to overreact to criticism but with your recent trip into dementia justifies a response.

Many of your posts on this site seem geared toward your favorite topic of LGAT unification but quite frankly after several months of listening to you tout that issue over and over on every LGAT thread I, like others on here, think its time to move on.

Furthermore, your religious justifications for criticizing others make you sound more like a bigot than an individual who has moved beyond the initial LGAT anger. If you are truly interested in pursuing the anger topic or LGAT unification then please start a new thread.

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Brad69
Senior Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 165
Location: South Africa
Posted: 09-01-2007 08:16 AM Post subject:

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An interesting quote I found:

“You cut them off from their support systems. You cut them off from church, friends, community, family. You isolate someone where they rely on the abuser for all the things, and so they become extremely dependent on that person, and then there is a natural tendency to try to please the power figure and if somebody sets themselves up as the power figure, you start aligning your thinking with that person. It's called defensive identification. You start thinking like them, talking like them, agreeing with them, because they can make it very scary for you if you don't."

Does this sound familiar?

In truth, this quote comes directly from a television show about abuse, not about LGATs, but one can see can that it applies exactly to the manner in which LGATs work.

The source? Doctor Phil!

Cutting a person off from their support, says Doctor Phil, is the first rule of abuse. As a qualified professional he knows and understands this.

This type of abuse is to be found in Quest and many similar LGATs.

Quote



Brad69
Senior Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 165
Location: South Africa
Posted: 08-30-2007 02:25 PM Post subject:

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It seems to me that the foremost claim LGATs make is that they teach people how to empower themselves.

Nothing could be further from the truth!

People attending a course for the first time might have a reason or two for doing so - obstacles or opposition that they perceive in their lives - and they hope to find ways to overcome them.

Those who have attended a course - and especially those that have gone beyond the first course - will notice, if they look back to those courses, how, the further they advanced, so more and more "obstacles" were brought to their attention.

The LGATs create more obstacles and opposition than a course attendee might have been aware of in his/her life before starting a course. They do this to create the need for even more courses.

It's interesting to note how many more courses are made known the further a person advances into the LGAT trap.

The "at cause" argument used by the LGATs is a disingenuous method of getting course-goers to believe that they are at fault for things that are not working in their lives.

And with the breakdown/build-up method these LGATs use - with a heavy emphasis on breakdown - they use the "at cause" argument to entrap a course-goer.

By drilling into the heads of course attendees how flawed they are, then blaming them for all the problems they have in their lives, the LGATs, in essence, are able to keep their victims aware of their problems at all times because the course-goers would be more aware of what is not working in their lives than any other person on the face of this earth.

Often, LGATs will tell a course-goer to cut something out of his/her life if it is not working. Again, this is not empowering.

Being a South African, I was reminded just yesterday, when a statue of Nelson Mandela was unveiled in London about the power of engaging our challenges with love, contrary to the ways the LGATs teach. Let me elaborate:

When Mandela was released from prison, after spending 27 years behind bars, fighting an unjust system, he re-entered mainstream life with an incredible outlook of acceptance towards everyone in South Africa, even towards those people who had so wrongly imprisoned him and suppressed the majority of the country's people under a system that treated them as second-class citizens.

At the time of his release, there was a lot of uncertainty about what the future held for South Africa. Over the decades of apartheid a massive amount of distrust had built up between the different racial groups.

Mandela could have isolated himself in a safe place, surrounding himself with "his people" and choosing not to work with the whites on a united future for all South Africans. He didn't do that, however. He welcomed every person equally to be part of the new democracy, and by doing that he empowered himself and the country.

He put his loving energy out to everybody, including those opposed to them, and in so doing he disarmed their fears.

That approach has made him incredibly powerful in the most beautiful sense of the world.

Mandela's actions were expansive. As we know, positive energy is expansive.

Today, because he faced his challenges with love and respect for all, Nelson Mandela is revered as one of the great leaders of our time,

LGAT teachings, on the other hand, propogate a method that leads to people making their world's smaller; essentially, instead of dealing with problems, converts are taught to distance themselves from them.

If there is someone or who is causing a course-goer stress, the advice is often to remove that negative from the course attendee's life.

That mirrors an apartheid system.

The problems don't go away. They are still there.

"Divide and conquer" seems to be what is at work here because the more LGATs can isolate course-goers from their traditional support - including isolating the victims from their true selves - the greater the influence will be that the LGATs can exert over them.

Isolating someone is known as the first step an abuser takes in an abusive relationship.

With converts/victims making their world's smaller, they are contracting their energy, which is a negative energy.

That is NOT empowering. It is disempowering.

Freedom of spirit - empowerment - involves being able to face the world, everything and everyone, with optimism.

When a person is empowered, he/she feels a connection to all things, and few things are able to knock that person off track. As an example, think of the way a person beginning a new and loving relationship views the world - life is wonderful.

When a person is disempowered, he/she views the world with suspicion and withdraws from it. He/she lives in fear.

The LGAT philosophy encourages this fear-based view of the world.

Love, it is said, is the strongest power in the world. At the other end of the scale, fear - the opposite of love (and not "hate" as many mistakenly believe) - is the most disempowering power there is.

It is this fear that is crucial to the "success" of LGATs in claiming more victims.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 08:37 PM Post subject:

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I came to this website very angry over my LGAT involvement and the destruction it brought to my life by applying its philosophy to my life.

I have worked through much of the anger and have seen how all LGAT's are carbon copies of each other. The destruction in my life is not unique as it is very similar to many members who have shared on this website.

I still can get very angry at these aspects around LGAT's.

Although now the focus in my life is to pursue emotional healing in my life. I am done hanging out in my anger over what was done in the past.

I will continue to expose LGAT's in the way I choose to do so. I understand the anger that is held towards LGAT's by many on this thread.

I am done with this anger consuming me though.

What others do with their anger is up to them. Anger is part of the healing process in recovering from an LGAT experience.

Letting that anger remain dominate in my life is no longer an option.

I am looking at myself, and getting the healing for myself as needed.

What is done with my sharing about my healing journey on this forum is up to the individual reader.

For those who are still needing to remain in the extreme anger over their individual LGAT experience? That is for you to decide.

It is not for you to decide for me to remain angry though.

So I am sorry. I choose not to remain in anger in my life. I understand others anger as needed for them to heal.

Just don't expect me to stay in the anger is all.

I can expose LGAT's without being so angry.

I am sorry. We are at another impasse here.

I will not leave like last time. But, I will not let your anger dictate how I share either.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-30-2007 09:37 PM Post subject:

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Even in my faith there is no room to blame the devil for my behavior. In the bible it states that the devil tempts me with what is within me, and entices those parts of me with temptation. If what I am being tempted to do is not something that can entice me? It will not be a temptation to do.
I understood this in my life way before I even heard of LGAT’s in my life.
This same bible also tells me to be angry in a proper and healthy way. Not a destructive way.
So, even though some are not choosing to look at themselves in a manner of identifying what was within themselves that allowed for the LGAT magnet to attract and lure them in.
I will not attack this in people. But, I will continue on my emotional healing journey in my life with looking at myself, and sharing in my posts from this very needed and healthy critical analysis of myself.
As I continue to expose the lies, and deceptions of LGAT’s on this forum. I will at the same time not make excuses for my being deceived by Klemmer in my life. Regardless of how deceptive they truly are.
Yes, Klemmer is and was deceptive along with all the other LGAT’s out there. At the same time, I will take the proper responsibility for addressing myself and what was within me that created the magnetic pull that drew me to such a messed up philosophy in my life.
I have vented as needed on this forum. It is now time to heal in my life. There are some who are on this forum who are just as angry now as when I started on this forum.
I will accept another person choice to be angry, and to share from that place.
I will not allow for my posts to continue in being posted from this place though.
I do not know what others are after on this forum?
For me it is two things:
1. To expose LGAT’s
2. To help others recover from their LGAT experience.
They are both entwined for me. Remaining in anger beyond what is healthy and proper emotionally is not the way to accomplish this in my life.
So, my sharing on this forum will hold these two objectives as I share. I will not let anger consume me beyond what is needed in my recovery journey.

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rrmoderator
Moderator


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 2493
Location: Jersey City
Posted: 08-30-2007 09:51 PM Post subject:

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Rswinters:

You have repeatedly gone off topic.

Focus like a laser on the specific topic of this thread or leave.

Preaching your religious views is against the rules.

Any further going on about your religion will result in banning.

This is the very last warning you will be given.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 12:41 AM Post subject:

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rrmoderator wrote:
Rswinters:

You have repeatedly gone off topic.

Focus like a laser on the specific topic of this thread or leave.

Preaching your religious views is against the rules.

Any further going on about your religion will result in banning.

This is the very last warning you will be given.


Rick. So for me to remain on topic requires me to only share in an angry way about LGAT's and not what is helping me recover from it in my life?

Is anger the only recognizable topic on this forum?

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 12:51 AM Post subject:

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If anger at LGAT's is all that is wanted to be heard on this forum?

There is no need for Rick to ban me.

The anger is needed, and I recognize the need for it in recovery.

But, I am at the crossroad in my recovery where this anger is needing to be transformed to something more productive in my life.

Staying this angry over my LGAT experiece is not helping me. It is hurting me more than helping me now.

My anger was needed at first. Now it is needing to change in me for my own personal recovery to continue.

I do not want to remain stuck in this anger in my own life.

I hope to walk the path of recovery with you all. But not the path of anger as some are preferring to remain on.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-31-2007 01:46 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters, I welcomed you to post on this thread about relationships, within the context of lgats. That was in order to be gracious so as to overcome our previous disagreement in which you caused a conflict by preaching your religious views and making unpleasant personal comments about me, and also because I thought you would have the good sense and common courtesy to keep whatever you had to say relevant.

You have over-stayed your welcome and abused my hospitality, so-to-speak, on this thread.

You have gone way-off topic in a very self-centered fashion, you have made nasty personal comments about me and you have also broken your promise to me that you would not preach religion in conversation with me or on my threads.

Please start a new thread, unless you have something specific to say about quest. Not your general lgat theories, not your anger theories, not your therapy, not your personal opinion of me and not your religion.

Thank you.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 04:53 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
Rswinters, I welcomed you to post on this thread about relationships, within the context of lgats. That was in order to be gracious so as to overcome our previous disagreement in which you caused a conflict by preaching your religious views and making unpleasant personal comments about me, and also because I thought you would have the good sense and common courtesy to keep whatever you had to say relevant.

You have over-stayed your welcome and abused my hospitality, so-to-speak, on this thread.

You have gone way-off topic in a very self-centered fashion, you have made nasty personal comments about me and you have also broken your promise to me that you would not preach religion in conversation with me or on my threads.

Please start a new thread, unless you have something specific to say about quest. Not your general lgat theories, not your anger theories, not your therapy, not your personal opinion of me and not your religion.

Thank you.


I honestly thought I was being considerate in my posts. No need to stay in a debate over this.

I will leave things as they lay. Thanks for the oportunity to share agian.

Thanks.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 11:04 AM Post subject:

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rrmoderator wrote:
Rswinters:

You have repeatedly gone off topic.

Focus like a laser on the specific topic of this thread or leave.

Preaching your religious views is against the rules.

Any further going on about your religion will result in banning.

This is the very last warning you will be given.


I am focused on exposing LGAT's and the recovery from them.

Is this not the subject matter of this forum?

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 08-31-2007 12:55 PM Post subject:

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Its the topic of the whole forum, not this particular thread.

Here is a specific thread on recovery:

[board.culteducation.com]

Aside from that lecturing other people from the bible on whether or not to be angry is not part of lgats or recovering them. Nor is telling people to be responsible and dig deep to find the dirt that you think got them into an lgat part of the recovery process. Considering this type of thinking is an lgat means of manipulating people, it is actually a counter-productive idea, as it entrenches lgat thinking. It is also contrary to the research which shows very clearly that all types of people get recruited for all types of reasons. From the FAQ section on this board:

[www.culteducation.com]

Quote:
What types of people are recruited by cults or become involved in potentially unsafe or destructive groups and relationships?

All types of people. Individuals from strong and troubled families, with and without histories of psychological problems. People who have had and have not had drug problems, with a solid or weak religious background, the educated and uneducated, the wealthy, poor, middle class, intelligent and not so intelligent.

One of the myths about cult involvement is that a certain type of person is more vulnerable. Another myth is that healthy, strong, intelligent well-educated people from good families don't become involved. Or, that somehow if someone has clearly defined religious convictions they cannot be recruited. These theories have never been proven or substantiated through research. In fact, repeated studies continue to indicate a wide and varied background for cult recruits.

Frankly, cults are quite good at persuasion and indoctrination; it's their stock and trade. And most people simply are not prepared, either through education and personal experience, to be sensitive to the possible impact of cult methodology.


Methods used by Quest and similar lgats to recruit people are relevant to this topic.

Rswinters, it seems you feel you have progressed to a stage where you are not interested in things like brainwashing techniques and recruitment techniques and want to gloss over these things to get to your personal problems. If you are bored with that, please start a new thread. If you don't like anger, start an anger-free thread.

Remember that people reading this particular thread, which is about quest, may not be at that stage, and may not have read the entire board yet. They are still learning, they are still interested in these aspects, even if you aren't. They may also be be angry, and want to express anger. Anger is a symptom of PTSD and PTSD is a known effect of lgats. You were left in peace to express anger, very vociferously, for about six months. I don't think its fair to try to stop others doing the same.

I don't like bible-thumping on this board or on this thread because it feeds into another misperception about cults, which is that only narrow-minded religious fanatics have a problem with them, because they are scared of the competition and they see anything outside their particular church or belief system as the anti-christ or equivalent. The reason for this is that a lot of churches are involved in anti-cult activity.

But lgats are a problem to EVERYONE, not only religious people and not for religious reasons. They are a problem because they use deceptive business practices to con people out of money and control them using extremely abusive covert and overt psychological manipulation. That has nothing to do with religion.

If you feel you're above being angry and discussing the methods of lgats and are in an advanced healing stage, please use the specific section of the board provided for that (recovery from cults, link provided above) or start a new thread.

As for anger, I don't consider saying "f*ck that" to a bad idea to be anger. More like mild irritation. When I am angry I write in bold, large font and with some @#$%#$%#$ type symbols, and maybe some red thrown in. I might also get a little personal, not enough to be considered flaming but enough that I'm sure you'd rather not hear it. If you want a demo, try writing one more off-topic or bible-thumping comment on this thread.

rrmoderator
Moderator


Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 2493
Location: Jersey City
Posted: 08-31-2007 04:57 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain:

Yes.

This thread is essentially about "Methods used by Quest."

It is not about anyone's personal religious beliefs used in recovery.

That focus is off topic.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 08-31-2007 11:10 PM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
...Remember that people reading this particular thread, which is about quest, may not be at that stage, and may not have read the entire board yet. They are still learning, they are still interested in these aspects, even if you aren't. They may also be be angry, and want to express anger. Anger is a symptom of PTSD and PTSD is a known effect of lgats. You were left in peace to express anger, very vociferously, for about six months. I don't think its fair to try to stop others doing the same...


SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-31-2007 11:35 PM Post subject: LGATs, et al

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Hi All,

just FYI
In their abstract Ofshe and Singer write:

" Althoughh the evidence is limited, it suggest that physical brutality or deprivation, even when combined with interpersonal coercion, did not regularly cause emotional breakdown or psychotic episodes. There is a notable absence of report sof frequent psychotic breaks among American military prisoners and among improsioned Westerners in China. When [b:cd2663961c]dramatic, emotional reactions are reported, they invariably occur in violence-free settings in which targest are coerced by peers who are thier intimates (Hinkel and Wolfe, 1956, 160)."

'shad'

[/b:cd2663961c]

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The Shadow
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 128
Location: British Columbia, CANADA
Posted: 08-31-2007 11:44 PM Post subject: LGATs

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sheesh, look at all my typos!!!

sorry, I am posting in segments because I keep getting "timed out"...

further, Ofshe and Singer report in "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques" ...

"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?

further:
"Peer group members have the ability to focus their criticisms on signifant aspects of the target's self and to repeatedly arouse guilt and anxiety. In these programs, it appears that aversive arousal, coupled with peer rejection, became the driving force thorugh which the target was coerced."

I have noticed with my friend that the most obscure things set her off, and from one minute to the next I have no idea that something that was previously benign now becomes something that will cause her to burst into tears or get angry. And since she won't talk about her experience in the Landmark/EST courses, I have no idea what is going to set her off next. I feel like I am walking on eggshells.

'shad'

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ajinajan
Senior Member


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 416

Posted: 08-31-2007 11:49 PM Post subject: Re: LGATs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shadow wrote:
sheesh, look at all my typos!!!

sorry, I am posting in segments because I keep getting "timed out"...

further, Ofshe and Singer report in "Attacks on Peripheral versus Central Elements of Self and the Impact of Thought Reforming Techniques" ...

"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?

further:
"Peer group members have the ability to focus their criticisms on signifant aspects of the target's self and to repeatedly arouse guilt and anxiety. In these programs, it appears that aversive arousal, coupled with peer rejection, became the driving force thorugh which the target was coerced."

I have noticed with my friend that the most obscure things set her off, and from one minute to the next I have no idea that something that was previously benign now becomes something that will cause her to burst into tears or get angry. And since she won't talk about her experience in the Landmark/EST courses, I have no idea what is going to set her off next. I feel like I am walking on eggshells.

'shad'


There are a few books on cults that look interesting and might address some of these problems with dealing with cult members and coping as an ex-cult member:

Recovery from Cults, Langone and contributors

Take back your Life, Lalich

Cults in our Midst (make sure to get the 1995 edition for the info on Landmark Education), by the two-time nobel prize nominee, Dr. Margaret Singer

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 12:13 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters wrote:

Quote:

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters


God bless me? If I may quote Richard Dawkins:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

And if you don't believe that, go read your bible. Its all there.

Elena has already explained to you that its rude to bless people who don't share your faith.

Thank you for your excellent demonstration of hypocrisy.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 12:27 AM Post subject:

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Rswinters wrote:

Quote:
Even in my faith there is no room to blame the devil for my behavior.


Very impressive. I don't blame the easter bunny for my behaviour.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 09-01-2007 12:28 AM Post subject:

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SaneAgain wrote:
Rswinters wrote:

Quote:

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters


God bless me? If I may quote Richard Dawkins:

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

And if you don't believe that, go read your bible. Its all there.

Elena has already explained to you that its rude to bless people who don't share your faith.

Thank you for your excellent demonstration of hypocrisy.

Rswinters wrote:

SaneAgian. I will not engage your anger...

Have a good day...

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 01:09 AM Post subject:

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Rs, I hope what you're saying is true. You keep saying you're leaving, and then you come back. If you want to leave, leave. If you don't want to "engage", don't post. Very simple. Three pages later...

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question lady
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 162
Location: USA
Posted: 09-01-2007 02:20 AM Post subject:

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Quote:

Quote
"Rswinters1
SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters


RS, It's not a competition. There are no deadlines on stages of recovery, and nor on anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, perhaps for a very long time, if not forever. It's not for you to decide what is best for someone else.

You know that I am a person of faith in God RS, and I agree that to conclude with a "God Bless" for someone who has stated their lack of interest in your religion is rather rude. It almost sounds like you are trying to zing Sane while trying to appear above it.

I care about you. The people on this board care about you. But sometimes caring means pointing out some things that may be alienating your allies.

I have tried to be gentle in saying this. I hope I have. Everyone here has been hurt in some way by an LGAT. Let's keep the focus on helping each other.

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SaneAgain
Senior Member


Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: 09-01-2007 02:28 AM Post subject:

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Shadow, thanks for this, it is very interesting:

Quote:
"The inference consisten with these reports is that psychological distrubance is more likely to be induced when targets of the influence process actively participate in group-based interaction and have been induced to tell the group about their histories and sentiments. One explanation for the relationship is that public exposure of even moderately intimate aspects of self permits peers to continually manipulate the target's emotionality." -- is it any wonder that people who are recovering from exposure to the LGATs often demonstrate volitile emotional reactions??!! -- who know what the "triggers" are that cause different people to react, eh?



This is useful and interesting, and I appreciate you posting this. Its also just general boundaries, I think. If there's anything on earth that violates a person's boundaries, its an lgat. But you probably know more about that than I do, I hate throwing around psychological terms that I don't really understand but I don't know how else to say what I mean

Just a side-note - ajinajan - thanks, I've the got the Margaret Singer book (sadly without the Landmark details, but with more comments on what lengths lgats go to cover up their evils) and one of the warning she gives about recovery, is that therapy can be not helpful or counter-productive, if the therapist doesn't understand cults and rather than focussing on the damage caused by the cult, takes the person down the garden path into childhood issues, which may or may not be relevant. Worth bearing in mind if anyone is busy finding a therapist, make sure they know what they're doing, and if they don't, as exImpact says, educate them!

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 09-01-2007 03:00 AM Post subject:

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question lady wrote:
Quote:

Quote
"Rswinters1
SaneAgian. I just checked the dates that we both came to this website. We both came in the same month and year.

I hope you will get to a place where the anger is less for you in this matter.

I have experienced your anger first hand already. So, it will not surprise me if you choose to let me see it agian in your posts.

Your very angry, and that is very obvious.

I will leave this thread alone, and I will post on topic threads what is appropriate for the thread.

I hope the best for your recovery from Quest in your life.

God Bless you.
Rswinters



RS, It's not a competition. There are no deadlines on stages of recovery, and nor on anger. There is nothing wrong with feeling angry, perhaps for a very long time, if not forever. It's not for you to decide what is best for someone else.

You know that I am a person of faith in God RS, and I agree that to conclude with a "God Bless" for someone who has stated their lack of interest in your religion is rather rude. It almost sounds like you are trying to zing Sane while trying to appear above it.

I care about you. The people on this board care about you. But sometimes caring means pointing out some things that may be alienating your allies.

I have tried to be gentle in saying this. I hope I have. Everyone here has been hurt in some way by an LGAT. Let's keep the focus on helping each other.

Rswinters wrote:

The projected anger is definitely alienating me. That is for sure. Anger is proper when it is kept in check. Not as it is unchecked lately...

I am sorry to disagree with some of you here... Anger within reason and purpose is very needed...

Beyond that is destructive.

The anger that goes unchecked on this website is extremely destructive.

I am done with my words, and intentions being so twisted by this unchecked anger.

It is time to look in the mirror folks. Don't demand what your not willing to follow in guidelines.

I am not angry here. I am just done with temper tantrums...

This is where I am at on this matter. I will be remaining on this forum, but will not be engaging the anger.

I am sure there will be loud posts that will rip what I have said apart...

But rest assured. I am done with the unchecked anger on this forum.

I will not leave in anger as I did previously. Because I am not angry here.

I am done with others anger being projected upon me though.

Have a good day you all.

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Rswinters1
Member


Joined: 20 Aug 2007
Posts: 56

Posted: 09-01-2007 03:09 AM Post subject:

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separating the quotes messed up. Here is what I posted.

The projected anger is definitely alienating me. That is for sure. Anger is proper when it is kept in check. Not as it is unchecked lately...

I am sorry to disagree with some of you here... Anger within reason and purpose is very needed...

Beyond that is destructive.

The anger that goes unchecked on this website is extremely destructive.

I am done with my words, and intentions being so twisted by this unchecked anger.

It is time to look in the mirror folks. Don't demand what your not willing to follow in guidelines.

I am not angry here. I am just done with temper tantrums...

This is where I am at on this matter. I will be remaining on this forum, but will not be engaging the anger.

I am sure there will be loud posts that will rip what I have said apart...

But rest assured. I am done with the unchecked anger on this forum.

I will not leave in anger as I did previously. Because I am not angry here.

I am done with others anger being projected upon me though.

Have a good day you all.

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formerimpactgrad
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 107

Posted: 09-01-2007 07:44 AM Post subject:

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Rsw,

I have decided against criticizing your posts on multiple occasions because you have a tendency to overreact to criticism but with your recent trip into dementia justifies a response.

Many of your posts on this site seem geared toward your favorite topic of LGAT unification but quite frankly after several months of listening to you tout that issue over and over on every LGAT thread I, like others on here, think its time to move on.

Furthermore, your religious justifications for criticizing others make you sound more like a bigot than an individual who has moved beyond the initial LGAT anger. If you are truly interested in pursuing the anger topic or LGAT unification then please start a new thread.

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Brad69
Senior Member


Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 165
Location: South Africa
Posted: 09-01-2007 08:16 AM Post subject:

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An interesting quote I found:

“You cut them off from their support systems. You cut them off from church, friends, community, family. You isolate someone where they rely on the abuser for all the things, and so they become extremely dependent on that person, and then there is a natural tendency to try to please the power figure and if somebody sets themselves up as the power figure, you start aligning your thinking with that person. It's called defensive identification. You start thinking like them, talking like them, agreeing with them, because they can make it very scary for you if you don't."

Does this sound familiar?

In truth, this quote comes directly from a television show about abuse, not about LGATs, but one can see can that it applies exactly to the manner in which LGATs work.

The source? Doctor Phil!

Cutting a person off from their support, says Doctor Phil, is the first rule of abuse. As a qualified professional he knows and understands this.

This type of abuse is to be found in Quest and many similar LGATs.

Quote

rrmoderator wrote:

Quote

Please stay on topic and focused.

Rswinters1 has been banned.