I guess the "self" or narcissicism you see is somewhat deserved. The training is about me, not about the guy next to me or my gfriend who showed me this place. If I went there to get help so a girl would like me more, then its not the right reason for going. I went there to work on me, me only. So yeah, me me me.

Taken in that light it wounds like I am self-centered. One of the premises of Impact is that we are all in this together and everyone counts. It also starts with me. The concept of hope that has been floated around here kinda illustrates this very idea. Impact says there is no hope because those who hope are basically saying that they want something to magically happen [i:71c02831b7]instead of doing something about the situation[/i:71c02831b7].

I could hope that my children don't get hurt by the child molesters of this world, or I could take an active participation to ensure, as much is humanly possible, that they are taught and act in safe ways to lessen that possibility. I could hope that the neighbor has food for the holidays or I could get her some myself.

So taken together, that I can only change me, can only dictate me, goes along with their concept of hope -I have to do something myself, whether that means solo or getting others to work with me in a cause.

Having lived my Impact training, and having seen the results of it, I wouldn't choose to live any other way. For me, it works. For my fiancee, it works. And neither of us interfere with someone else's choices to live as they would like.

Something uniquely mine? I'm not sure what you mean. Can you rephrase that question please? When you say "step out of your 'me' mode" what mode would you have me step into?

rrmoderator, that would be like telling someone how awful broccoli is and you believe them, but then one day you try it. Either you confirm for yourself that its no good or you find that you like it. Pre-conceived notions created by gathering information perhaps get you to the wrong conclusion. With all the info scientists had for many years, they thought the Earth was flat and the universe rotated around the Earth. Even today there are people who believe that the Earth is flat, despite all the data to show it is round. Some say we have never been to the mood despite all the video and photos taken of us up there, or the fact that the US flag is there and can be seen with a big telescope. As you have said yourself, you haven't gone through Impact or any LGAT's.

I am not saying that LGAT's are either good nor bad - I challenge your thinking that they are the monsters you would have others believe they are. Certainly there are cases where the participants reacted to the training in a manner that defies logic and seem to go off the deep end and do things that seem crazy.

From the posts here and from the study quoted, it does sound horrible. If I had read things like this before going to Impact I probably would have run too. BUT I didn't and having experienced it, I am glad I didn't read stuff online that spoke poorly of it. I can see how the processes and the thoughts expressed by the study participants would sound weird or scary or sick. In reality, for me at least, it wasn't like that. Although the facts were pretty close to what happened, the feeling of what happened and the feeling of the words in the study just don't match up for me.

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Otter
exImpact, you asked me if I thought you were "bitter liars" and the answer to that is no. I am sure you are not lying about your expereinces. The posts you have made do sound a tad bit bitter though. As your experience was just as real to you as mine was to me, I cannot come up with any "cogent arguments" to address your claims. I'm not here to argue anything, only express my opinoin and answer any questions that I can. Arguing gets us nowhere...its two or more people trying to persuade each other that their opinion is better. Remember, opinions are like butts - everyone has one and they all stink (mine included).

An argument in logic and mathematics is any statement presented in premise and conclusion form. Your opinions and decisions are all arguments, you cannot escape making them, here or anywhere else. A cogent argument is one that is coherent, like so:

Premise 1) I believe/think/know X

P2) You believe/think/know Y

P3 through P whatever) this is why X is true….

Conclusion) Y is logically incompatible with X.

Arguing gets us everywhere my friend. Why would you even post from an apologetic point of view for Impact if your whole intention is not to argue against what has been said? Your claim of “not being here to argue” is false. It is my opinion that is exactly what you are here to do (which is great), but that you want to appear that you are taking the moral high road by not participating in the very thing you are participating in. Simply by posting your opinion you are making an apologetic argument for Impact. Also, opinions are all anyone has Otter, and they don’t “stink” as that nonsense platitude implies. If you think your opinion stinks, why bother giving it? As far as being bitter, you are damn right, but your implication that being bitter is somehow an inferior “way of being” offends me. I am aware you did not directly say that it was inferior, but that you made mention of it at all speaks to that opinion. If you believe what I am saying about my experiences, why do they not concern you? You come across as unempathetic. If you want to stay “above of the drama” as you are coached, why would you post here, when from Impact’s point of view this is as dramatic as it gets?

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Otter
Your logical analysis of the "it’s about you" sounded good on the surface but I don't agree with some of the premises you had. Here at my work, I may do things that the employees don't like. They can either say "He's an idiot and incompetent, that new process he implemented sucks and I don't like doing more work" or they can say "he had to make a hard decision and I'm sure there is a good reason for it and I will do my job and use that process." Its how the employee chooses to look at the situation and act on that info. Accountability and being a victim (not being a victim, but lets talk in the language of increase, as someone earlier pointed out

If you disagree with my premises, why won’t you address them? Your anecdote concerning your employees fell far short of achieving this. You aren’t even talking about the same thing; you made an analogous argument that was not analogous. All you succeeded in doing is telling me that if there is mistreatment or unethical behavior being done to you, it’s ok if you are willing to look at it differently. You are describing the rationalization abused women use to stay with their abusers. You cannot use a “lighter” or less severe example to prove your point when the subject is severe and tragic in content. How about, let’s [i:0d68df0401]not[/i:0d68df0401] talk in the language of increase here because it is semantics. Impact states that there are “no victims” in life. Tell me how a little girl chooses to be kidnapped by a neighbor she innocently trusts, trapped in a basement, molested repeatedly and killed, isn’t a victim. Tell me how 1300 people living in Indonesia were killed in an earthquake chose to die because they just wanted to live in Indonesia. Tell me how 30 or so college students chose to be shot and killed at the hands of demented and abused colleague simply because they wanted to go to school that day. If you can prove to me that these people actually CHOSE to die in the manner they did, you win. If you cannot, you MUST see that Impacts logic falls apart and the rest of it is moot. However, I will not accept theodicy as explanation, no “it was an agreement in the pre-mortal life” explanations. I do not assume any of your religious or spiritual premises to explain your logic. While I was facilitating, this accountability logic would always confuse those who were abused as children, and we could only tell them, “But you can choose how it has affects you now, cant you?”. Well, of COURSE they can, but it doesn’t mean they weren’t victims in the first place! If even one person in the history of the world has been victimized, it kills Impacts logic. Even the naïve 16 year old girl who sneaks out to go dancing with friends because she wants to have fun and gets raped in the process is a victim, notwithstanding that it was a bad decision to have underage fun, and that she was no longer an innocent. You want to blame the victims for being victims? That is called mental conditioning by means of traumatizing the ego into believing they are their own rapist/abuser/natural disaster. It is immoral, unclean, and abominable.

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Otter
Madshus, yes this training is a "comtrolled and systematic" method that I expereinced. GREAT! Its what "served me best" as an Impacter would say. Someone earlier said they thought Impact people were lazy because they are taking the easy shortcut. I see it as a way to get what I deserve and whether that's the easy way or the hard way, I am getting there. What's wrong with choosing a course of action that ends up being the easy route? I don't often choose the sheer rock face of a mountain to get to the top because there are trails to hike instead (although I love rock climbing). Whatever I was doing prior to Impact wasn't getting me what I wanted - in my job, in my relationships, in my spirituality, in other areas.

The problem is that you only address my accusation of “laziness” in this paragraph. What I was referring to was mental health and discipline. You, again, are trying to support your position with analogous examples that are not analogous. You say that you got nothing from therapy, and that Impact was better. To have success in therapy, you must be willing to put in the time and effort to achieve true functionality and discipline. I suspect you were not up to the task, and when Impact offered you the short cut, you took it. I do not believe you have the mental recovery you claim to have. I could be wrong, but I have seen it happen so many, many times, I wouldn't bet on it. I have said it before, if you knew that you were being brainwashed or mentally conditioned, it wouldn’t work.

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Otter
I am here to discuss what I can and leave alone that which I know nothing about. I will talk about and answer questions that are asked in sincerity, and I don't respond well to arguments, condescention, or incredulity of my opinion…Former, ex...can you tell me specific ways that Impact screwed you up? Please be careful to differentiate between what they did and what you did. They are two different things.

The problem I have with this statement is that you are wanting to leave alone what you do not know about. Why the hesitancy to go and learn about what we are talking about? Self imposed ignorance is a side-effect of mental conditioning. Do you really think that you have to experience something personally to learn about it? Do you think doing otherwise is committing the sin of the black magic you call “gossip”? They tell you not to gossip in order to control you. The office staff are the biggest bunch of gossip mongers I have ever known, but again, I am repeating myself. I have already stated how, in many ways, Impact affected my life and I have sited many examples I have witnessed of how other people have been traumatized and/or ruined. I will not pander to your unwillingness to read all of what has been posted, not only about Impact, but all of the other LGAT threads. Impact is a rip-off of Lifespring, which is a clone of Landmark etc. To not investigate all of the information available before you grace us with your opinion is…for lack of a better term, lazy. What I did is I decided to trust Impact. What they did to me is what they do to everyone whether you beleive it or not, which was screw me over with their semantics and lies. Go read the rest. It is unfortunate that you do not respond well to these kinds of criticisms to your opinions, but when posting opinions on a site where your views may be unpopular, it is likely that it will happen. The price you pay as it were.

Here are a few questions I think you should ask your TIT fiancé: What do you think of our accusations of TIT being a cult? I was there when we made the damn training, and I know the in’s and out’s of it and what went into making it. The angel readings and the apostolic staffs and the claims of godhood. I mean, for the readers of this post, I think it is valuable for them to know that TIT trainees believe that they are God. Not only A god, but also, literally GOD. How do you remain LDS and ILDS at the same time? How do you bring together the incompatibilities of the Berger doctrines and those of the LDS church? To be in TIT is to disbelieve in the patriarchal passing down of the priesthood. How do you reconcile that paradox? Or are you one of the LDS members of TIT who just thinks it’s all true, or that the truth will ultimately reveal itself? Have you told your bishop that you consider yourself a Christ? That you engage in healing circles with your wooden staff and that LDS men AND women invoke priesthood authority with people who think they have the same authority to create miracles and healing although they are not ordained? Also, if everyone is a god and has the authority to act on His behalf, does that not render LDS ordination impotent, and yes, all of the priesthood ordinances and endowments wholly unnecessary? Or do you just think you and the other LDS TIT members are walking the true Impact path and everyone else will catch up someday. If so, does that not neutralize any of impact’s claims that everyone is equal no matter their religious affiliation? What about other religions? If you believe there is no right or wrong, doesn’t that mean that everyone is right? And if so, why even believe in any religious distinctions and hold on to your now unnecessary LDS affiliations? Your fiancé is not LDS anymore whether she admits it or not. She is ILDS and her attachments to that church are irrational if she truly believes the TIT doctrine. How do you reconcile that everyone can be a prophet/seer/revelator? That eliminates the need to follow an ordained prophet. Also, if Lord Michael and Saint Germaine are so necessary to the progression and salvation of humanity, why has President Hinkley not revealed their necessary involvement? If it’s important enough for God to tell Hans that they are crucial, why not Pres.Hinkley? Or is TIT more pure and important a platform for this information to be given, and if so, why remain affiliated with the inferior LDS organization? The LDS church claims that it is ONLY through their revelation and doctrine that a man/woman may ultimately be saved. If you truly believe this, why wasn’t that organization good enough for you on its own? Or do you remain with that church, as I heard so many other ILDS members claim, because they desire to serve there and contribute to bringing true enlightenment to the organization, which effectively reduces their fidelity to the church down to lip-service. If you ask her these questions, I’d be interested in her responses.

Otter:

If you go through various threads at this message board you find no shortage of identical defenses offered for other LGATs, such as Landmark Education, Est, Sterling, Liefespring etc.

Essentially, you much like the others discount hard research, complaints from former participants, hospital records, court records, etc. in favor of your "experience," which apparently is all that matters to you.

But when others objectively evaluate a product for sale, e.g. Impact training, it's important to balance subjective experiences like yours against objective facts.

It is on this scale that LGATs like Impact come up short.

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I do know that there are people who take Impact to an extreme, shutting out family and jobs to staff, seem to be unaccounable for thier actions and call it a higher calling...Nutjobs are everywhere, clinging to anything and everything they can to make them feel like they fit in or are a part of something big. I saw a few of these people. I don't know if Impact created these weirdos or if they were weirdos already.

In all likelyhood, Impact did not create these people but they do enable them and use them. If someone is a verifiable nutjob (and we both seem to be in agreement that people like that exist around the training even though we probably disagree on the proportion of crazies to non-crazies) then why isn't Impact more proactive in correcting the problem? It reflects badly on the trainings that their most vocal supporters could easily fit in a white jacket, a padded cell or in one case the Utah State Sex Offender Registry.

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Mentally ill people are a whole different breed. I have no training on how to treat them, perhaps Impact does weird things with their minds (that already don't work well) like the two guys in Sacramento who partly blamed their killing someone on the training. I know Impact would never condone or teach anything like that, but unstable people seem to do poorly in all situations.

Impact may not teach it but by enabling these people, Impact does bare a portion of the responsibility. I can't speak in any kind of educated fashion regarding the "Sons of Thunder". The Impact trainings may have broken their ability to reason or the two may have just wanted a lesser sentence by claiming Impact based insanity. What I know for certain is that my loved ones were changed forever by the trainings. They no longer listened to anyone else, accountability never applied to them and their mental illness was much more severe than ever before. By creating, enabling or empowering that behavior the Impact Trainings bare a direct responsibility for the fall-out that occured from that point on. By creating an environment like they have at the Training center and doing no background research on trainee mental stability, Hans and Co are bound to run into the sick and the unstable. If the Training is not a substitute for Therapy, then why do they treat it as one? Why are people merely allowed to pay their thousands then walk away more f$%ked up than they ever would have been otherwise? Do these people constitute acceptable collateral damage? If so then what is the justification?

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One thing I haven't seen discussed here is that the trainers do a lot of talking but never tell a trainee "their own answers." This means they ask a lot of questions that the trainee answers for themselves. Trainers may say what they think or feel but never tell the trainee how they should think or feel about anything about themselves.

The trainers will regularly say that they don't give people their own answers but the statement is not true. The trainers "give people their own answers" in a variety of ways. In some cases (St Germaine, staffs, there is no hope, understanding is the boobie prize of life,..., etc.) the trainers explicitly state an implied truth that the trainee must accept or be "processed". In other instances that trainers will lead the trainee through questions to a pre-determined answer. Once the trainer teaches the trainee how they should think, the end answer becomes an inevitability.

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last night my fiancee read these posts and made an astute observation. She said (and I may have a hard time explaining this thought) that she saw the people on this board doing the very thing they are fighting against - working to change the way people view something.

Our posts don't drive people off the deep end or produce any of the myriad of problems created, generated or called forth (former trainees will recognize that language) by the Impact Trainings. The Impact Trainings twist people's minds using classic mental conditioning techniques (aggresive action combined with a denial of sleep and food, among others). I fail to see how our intentions are similar in any way.

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Otter
I am not saying that LGAT's are either good nor bad - I challenge your thinking that they are the monsters you would have others believe they are. Certainly there are cases where the participants reacted to the training in a manner that defies logic and seem to go off the deep end and do things that seem crazy.

The behavior that many people exhibit does not defy logic. It is an expected result of the training process over an increasingly large random sample of people. Impact does not perform any kind of research on their trainees, as a result terrible results are bound to happen over time. The problem, as I see it, is that Impact does not take this into consideration at all. Their concern is filling seats and collecting their fees. They have no problem washing their hands of certain people once those people have paid their fees and are now viewed as liabilities. That kind of behavior is deplorable. I also question whether or not Impact truly benefits anyone but that is more difficult to judge.

You know what guys? I came here to discuss, not be hammered on and accused if I don't answer your questions as you'd like. I've been giving you straight answer as I can and you choose to read all kinds of stuff into them that wasn't intended. Congratulations, [i:fdb5469604]you win[/i:fdb5469604]. I can't keep up with your intellectualism.

If someone has some valid non-confrontational questions then I will answer them from the viewpoint of someone who isn't here to bash on Impact.

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Otter
I do know that there are people who take Impact to an extreme, shutting out family and jobs to staff, seem to be unaccounable for thier actions and call it a higher calling...Nutjobs are everywhere, clinging to anything and everything they can to make them feel like they fit in or are a part of something big. I saw a few of these people. I don't know if Impact created these weirdos or if they were weirdos already.

Mentally ill people are a whole different breed. I have no training on how to treat them, perhaps Impact does weird things with their minds (that already don't work well) like the two guys in Sacramento who partly blamed their killing someone on the training. I know Impact would never condone or teach anything like that, but unstable people seem to do poorly in all situations.

ExImpact said something earlier that I wanted to comment on. he said most traineed were like him - male and LDS. From the trainings I participated in, I noticed mostly white ladies, and mostly non-LDS. Just my observation. The ratio was close to 2:1 girls to guys. I wonder what that says about women...or men?...rom the posts here and from the study quoted, it does sound horrible. If I had read things like this before going to Impact I probably would have run too. BUT I didn't and having experienced it, I am glad I didn't read stuff online that spoke poorly of it. I can see how the processes and the thoughts expressed by the study participants would sound weird or scary or sick. In reality, for me at least, it wasn't like that. Although the facts were pretty close to what happened, the feeling of what happened and the feeling of the words in the study just don't match up for me.

I speak with over 5 years of experience as a trainee AND as a trainer. Your "experience" with the training is a much smaller sample size than mine, and because you have no first hand experience of being in the Berger’s inner circle or with TIT3, I wouldn't rely on your experience as comprehensive. Trainees before the TIT level only get a smattering of the true expression of delusion Impact is founded upon. As far as disfunction, Impact is directly responsible for this crap. They dodge any accountability by saying it’s all about the trainees choice. In the end, they do not follow their own instructions. Impact creates mental illness as well as aggravates it. The point is that they are irresponsible and don’t care if they make people more ill or not. Also, simply because you survived playing russian roulette with your life, doesn't mean you should tell other people to play, and that it was a good idea in the first place. Actually, I am not convinced that you survived.

Formerimpactgad, you seem to have reasonable questions so let me answer a few of them, from my point of view.

I searched some stuff online today and realized perhaps one of the largest problems with LGAT's, and you just mentioned it. They don't screen the applicants to choose the ones who are likely to remain emotionally healthy. They will enroll anyone and hope for the best, but possibly use a bit og spin control out when someone has a bad reaction and goes wacky.

Empowering someone who then feels it for the first time can certainly be dangerous. They have no experience in how ot use that empowerment and usually end up misusing it to some degee. I told off my mom after Summit and she didn't deserve it (it did feel good though to stand up to her after so many years of henpecking). The more unstabel a trainee, the more potential they have to go off and do something stuid with their "new found power."

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Otter
If someone has some valid non-confrontational questions then I will answer them from the viewpoint of someone who isn't here to bash on Impact.

I haven't been involved in this thread but I'd like to go on record to say that, after personal experience (six years) in an lgat and much analysis, education and examination subsequent to my time in one, I AM here to bash lgats!

skeptic

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Whoa
Pardon my delayed response....had to be offline for a spell.
Ex, you said: "You said it is a love ay? For how long? Are you married? Husband or wife? It matters. If you are gay I can see how it might be revealing to Impact, many do not go through, but any helpful lie would be...helpful." I typed out a big long response, but decided to wait until I have ten posts to PM it to you in private if this info isn't enough. Love, yes. Not married. Relationship roller coaster over a year. He has a Mormon up-bringing, no longer associated with the church. Alcoholic.

I'm at the point of no return already with all of this drama. I want him back and to come around, but his mind-set is he is right and everyone that doesnt understand Impact, is wrong....which I can hardly believe considering this man felt that AA was cultish!

I also wanted to comment on what FormerG said about "While I was involved in Impact, I was weak, confused and depressed. I told myself differently but at my core I was never able to reconcile what I was being told with what was really going on." BINGO! That is exactly what I see when I look at him and I hear his words. Perhaps he will have an epiphany about the program as some of you others have had. I can only HOPE. As far as them saying "There is no hope". PSHH!!! Hope is archaic of trust. If you cannot hope for a better future, or trust that it will be so, then what is the point of living? Again, just my opinion.

You know, whoa, I am really glad you followed up your initial post. I've been hoping you would. I am sorry his situation hasn’t improved. Substance abusers really thrive on the environment Impact provides. Desperation overrides good judgment, and substance abusers have plenty. Patience is needed. If he will be your friend (if you can stand being around him) that is good. But any romantic concerns may have to take a back seat to the priority of his mental health. Logic, I think, will be a hard sell with him. It’s complicated, as you well know :) . We can talk about it on the board or you can PM me, but talking more in depth about “he said this to me today” or “he reacted this way today” etc. may work better in the PM, depending on what you think. With the information you’ve given, it’s a bit better, but I can only speak in generalities at this point. But it is a good start.

The rest of your post is relevant and valuable, I appreciate your contribution. I also hope for your friend and will do what I can to help.

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Otter
Formerimpactgad, you seem to have reasonable questions so let me answer a few of them, from my point of view.

I searched some stuff online today and realized perhaps one of the largest problems with LGAT's, and you just mentioned it. They don't screen the applicants to choose the ones who are likely to remain emotionally healthy. They will enroll anyone and hope for the best, but possibly use a bit og spin control out when someone has a bad reaction and goes wacky.

Empowering someone who then feels it for the first time can certainly be dangerous. They have no experience in how ot use that empowerment and usually end up misusing it to some degee. I told off my mom after Summit and she didn't deserve it (it did feel good though to stand up to her after so many years of henpecking). The more unstabel a trainee, the more potential they have to go off and do something stuid with their "new found power."

YES, this is a key contention! This is unforgivably irresponsible behavior. If this is how they get people in, how else are they acting without a care for the well being of these people? I mean, I KNOW the “how else”, but for someone who does not know, it is a valid question to ask!