Oh crap, I typed this long response and it timed out on me and lost it. If for some reason I double-post somethign similar, that is the reason. let me retype it now.

Madshus: I don't believe I could totally detach myself from my Impact experience and look at it with a totally critical mind. I do believe I could be in a relationship with someone who didn't take the training, but as I am getting married to a TIT'er herself later this month, I won't find that out first-hand.

formerimpactgrad: "Swiped at" was a term I used to say that my observations or opinions would be argued against, not that it is arrogant and beyone criticism. I know it was coming and that's ok, becasue I am the minority voice here where a few people are very vocal. I am the D.O. of my company and I hear criticism frequently, which allows me to knwo the minds of those who are saying it - feedback, if you will. ( I was last in feedback, if that says anything about me. ) I am not an Impact apologist, I do not condone poor business practices or poor behavior from the owners or staff of Impact. Neither would I condone my own bad behavior at any time. I am more aware of my own actions and thoughts now and can use that knowledge about myself to better myself on a constant basis. Some don't do it as often as they could. Some people live by a completely different moral code than I do (I am LDS).

exImpact, you asked me if I thought you were "bitter liars" and the answer to that is no. I am sure you are not lying about your expereinces. The posts you have made do sound a tad bit bitter though. As your experience was just as real to you as mine was to me, I cannot come up with any "cogent arguments" to address your claims. I'm not here to argue anything, only express my opinoin and answer any questions that I can. Arguing gets us nowhere...its two or more people trying to persuade each other that their opinion is better. Remember, opinions are like butts - everyone has one and they all stink (mine included).

Your logical analysis of the "its about you" sounded good on the surface but I don't agree with some of the premises you had. Here at my work, I may do things that the employees don't like. They can either say "He's an idiot and incompetent, that new process he implemented sucks and I don't like doing more work" or they can say "he had to make a hard decision and I'm sure there is a good reason for it and I will do my job and use that process." Its how the employee chooses to look at the situation and act on that info. Accountability and being a victim (not being a victim, but lets talk in the language of increase, as as someone earlier pointed out ;) ) are a big part of the training. Its talked about extensively in all phases, starting from the very first day or two and continuing throughout.

Madshus, yes this training is a "comtrolled and systematic" method that I expereinced. GREAT! Its what "served me best" as an Impacter would say. Someone earlier said they thought Impact people were lazy because they are taking the easy shortcut. I see it as a way to get what I deserve and whether that's the easy way or the hard way, I am getting there. What's wrong with choosing a course of action that ends up being the easy route? I don't often choose the sheer rock face of a mountain to get to the top because there are trails to hike instead (although I love rock climbing). Whatever I was doing prior to Impact wasn't getting me what I wanted - in my job, in my relationships, in my spirituality, in other areas.

I am here to discuss what I can and leave alone that which I know nothing about. I will talk about and answer questions that are asked in sincerity, and I don't respond well to arguments, condescention, or incredulity of my opinion.

Next time just hit the back button after you log in again. Your post will still be there. --Moderator[/color:5c1e10105a]

One thing I left out of my post was something formerimpactgrad asked. Yes Enrollment weekend was our chance to talk to family and friends about our experience. I didn't feel pressured to do that. I did talk to my angry ex-wife (she makes it her duty in life to remain angry about everything) but I didn' tfeel pressured into doing it. I looked at it as a chance to change the relationship we have if she would do something...ANYTHING to stop using her anger at the world to cause interference between my boy and I.

Former, ex...can you tell me specific ways that Impact screwed you up? Please be careful to differentiate between what they did and what you did. They are two different things.

Otter:

You are falling into the very typical pattern of "mass marathon training" supporters, which is a seeming inability to find anything wrong with the program and instead blame anyone hurt by such programs for their own injuries.

This commonly called "victim bashing."

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is research done by a clinical psychologist about training like Impact, Lifespring, Landmark Education, Sterling etc.

Note the 13 liabilities cited and the four danger signs, which are:

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

Quote
Otter
One thing I left out of my post was something formerimpactgrad asked. Yes Enrollment weekend was our chance to talk to family and friends about our experience. I didn't feel pressured to do that. I did talk to my angry ex-wife (she makes it her duty in life to remain angry about everything) but I didn' tfeel pressured into doing it. I looked at it as a chance to change the relationship we have if she would do something...ANYTHING to stop using her anger at the world to cause interference between my boy and I.

Former, ex...can you tell me specific ways that Impact screwed you up? Please be careful to differentiate between what they did and what you did. They are two different things.

[b:825b87d11d]Otter:[/b:825b87d11d] I appreciate the fact that you took the time to comment again. Most Impacters aren't that considerate so I think a sincere thank you is in order. I have detailed many of the specific details of my experience with the Impact Trainings in prior posts. I'm sure you can find what you're looking for there. I don't see the point in posting pages of information a second time.

Impact's negative effects seemed more pronounced in the people around me than in myself. Thankfully I am not as insecure as most of the other people that I know who went through the program. As a result I was able to hold on to some semblance of self and when confronted with the ridiculous (some damaging and some not) notions that arose in TIT, I didn't buy in like most of the others.

The changes that I saw in the people around me turned my stomach on a daily basis. They severed relationships without cause, they bought into the "natural knowing" so completely that they often interpreted dreams or random thoughts to be repressed memories that caused them to confront other people with fabricated "experiences" that they needed to reconcile. Eventually their "natural knowing" lead them into adulturous relationships and Impact severed ties.

I firmly believe that these people have severe mental illnesses and the Impact Trainings empowered them in their dementia. Hans and the other trainers had plenty of chances to change things before they were unreachable but instead the trainers and staff accused me of being non-supportive and judgmental until my loved ones became liabilities, then Impact severed all contact. Impact is not responsible for the mental illness, but they are absolutely responsible for their part in empowering those people into their own insanity.

I observed several instances in the training that were similar to this, it was not an isolated incident. The bottom line is that relatively healthy people can go through the trainings and leave with very few ill effects but the people that are truly sick are the ones that suffer the most. Hans and Sally gave lip service to the "we are not a substitute for therapy" line but realistically, they have no problem picking anyone's pocket and trainees that resort to other kinds of therapy or medication are considered weak. This is especially true in the Trainer in Training levels.

If Impact has empowered people into behavior that is harmful, Impact is responsible. You say that there is a difference between what Impact does and what trainees do. I disagree, any change in behavior that occurs as a result of attending the Impact Trainings is that fault of the Impact trainers and staff. This is true for better or worse. Also, for your benefit I've included the definition of apologist from dictionary.com:

a·pol·o·gist /əˈpɒlədʒɪst/
Pronunciation[uh-pol-uh-jist]
–noun
1. a person who makes a defense in speech or writing of a belief, idea, etc.

rrmoderator, did I blame anyone for anything? No I didn't. Did you attend Impact?

"Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change." Didn't see that behavior from the staff or trainers.

"Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant." They probably don't have any therapy education. They do say this is not therapy many times. Emotions do play a large part in their introspection or self-realization. I don't recall being forced to do anything. I chose to participate. Perhaps some staff or trainer assisted a trainee to keep working on something till they got to the root of their emotion, but forced? No.

"Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation." I don't recall a single time where salvation was talked about.

"Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."" Perhaps there is some truth to this one. I'm not sure either way. I do know I never experienced this myself.

One thing I haven't seen discussed here is that the trainers do a lot of talking but never tell a trainee "their own answers." This means they ask a lot of questions that the trainee answers for themselves. Trainers may say what they think or feel but never tell the trainee how they should think or feel about anything about themselves.

last night my fiancee read these posts and made an astute observation. She said (and I may have a hard time explaining this thought) that she saw the people on this board doing the very thing they are fighting against - working to change the way people view something. Hans has worked long and hard to get trainees to see Impact as something wonderful, the people on this post are working long and hard to get people to stop going and tell everyone that Impact is terrible. Seems like they are one in the same in their intentions - get people to see that they are right and everyone should follow them. Each side can be persuasive in their arguments. While I don't support all that Hans said ( I left it on a shelf as he says, and some of it is still there collecting dust) an observer here could do the same with what has been posted.

Pardon my delayed response....had to be offline for a spell.

First to address the 'poor pitiful me' comment: No, I have always stayed away from LGATs. I have always felt, for whatever reason, that if you need help with something, that speaking with someone close to you that you know genuinely cares for you and can stay unbiased, has your best intrerest at heart etc, is the next best thing to just taking the time yourself to journal and get the emotional junk out. That internalizing stuff you can do for just so long before you feel sick. I dont want to play the 'poor pitiful me' scenario, because it has never proved to be beneficial to my mental health, LOL HOWEVER, sometimes it would be easy to scream out and ask "why are you doing this to me?" Part of it is yes, the person hurting me is to blame, but then again, I'm right here letting it happen. I don't know, I could sit and think myself into insanity on what is "right" and what is "wrong". But maybe the bottom line in all of it is that everyone needs to have the experiences they do, to know what it is they don't want. That sounds like some sort of spiritual double speak, but I don't know how else to phrase it. I know in life situations if something makes me feel bad, I certainly don't repeat it. I learn from it and move on. Kind of like how your mom tells you when you are little not to touch the hot pan on the stove, but I know I touched it just out of curiosity, it did not make me feel good and never did that again! The thing I don't understand is, why some people lack this type of mental discipline. They keep doing the same stuff over and over, and it gets them absolutely nowhere!

Ex, you said: "You said it is a love ay? For how long? Are you married? Husband or wife? It matters. If you are gay I can see how it might be revealing to Impact, many do not go through, but any helpful lie would be...helpful." I typed out a big long response, but decided to wait until I have ten posts to PM it to you in private if this info isn't enough. Love, yes. Not married. Relationship roller coaster over a year. He has a Mormon up-bringing, no longer associated with the church. Alcoholic.

I'm at the point of no return already with all of this drama. I want him back and to come around, but his mind-set is he is right and everyone that doesnt understand Impact, is wrong....which I can hardly believe considering this man felt that AA was cultish!

I also wanted to comment on what FormerG said about "While I was involved in Impact, I was weak, confused and depressed. I told myself differently but at my core I was never able to reconcile what I was being told with what was really going on." BINGO! That is exactly what I see when I look at him and I hear his words. Perhaps he will have an epiphany about the program as some of you others have had. I can only HOPE. As far as them saying "There is no hope". PSHH!!! Hope is archaic of trust. If you cannot hope for a better future, or trust that it will be so, then what is the point of living? Again, just my opinion.

Quote
formerimpactgrad
The changes that I saw in the people around me turned my stomach on a daily basis. They severed relationships without cause, they bought into the "natural knowing" so completely that they often interpreted dreams or random thoughts to be repressed memories that caused them to confront other people with fabricated "experiences" that they needed to reconcile. Eventually their "natural knowing" lead them into adulturous relationships and Impact severed ties.

Sounds exactly like what I am seeing in my situation.

Thanks for the thanks formerimpactgrad. I guess I'm an apologist if that's the definition.

There were things I didn't agree with in the training so I left those alone and took only what worked for me. With a big, diverse group like that there is bound to be material I don't like.

I do know that there are people who take Impact to an extreme, shutting out family and jobs to staff, seem to be unaccounable for thier actions and call it a higher calling...Nutjobs are everywhere, clinging to anything and everything they can to make them feel like they fit in or are a part of something big. I saw a few of these people. I don't know if Impact created these weirdos or if they were weirdos already.

Some people choose to communicate in a way that drives me crazy..."processing me" on everything I say. I told one girl from my Lift-Off family to talk "normally" when she is around me. Maybe I have done it too. :shock:

Mentally ill people are a whole different breed. I have no training on how to treat them, perhaps Impact does weird things with their minds (that already don't work well) like the two guys in Sacramento who partly blamed their killing someone on the training. I know Impact would never condone or teach anything like that, but unstable people seem to do poorly in all situations.

ExImpact said something earlier that I wanted to comment on. he said most traineed were like him - male and LDS. From the trainings I participated in, I noticed mostly white ladies, and mostly non-LDS. Just my observation. The ratio was close to 2:1 girls to guys. I wonder what that says about women...or men?

Quote
Otter
I don't believe I could totally detach myself from my Impact experience and look at it with a totally critical mind...

Exactly the answer I thought you would give. Now I challenge you... step out of your 'me' mode and give it a try.

Quote
Otter
Madshus, yes this training is a "comtrolled and systematic" method that I expereinced. GREAT! Its what "[b:6fff85dec6]served me[/b:6fff85dec6] best" as an Impacter would say. Someone earlier said they thought Impact people were lazy because they are taking the easy shortcut. I see it as a way to [b:6fff85dec6]get what I deserve[/b:6fff85dec6] and whether that's the easy way or the hard way, I am getting there. What's wrong with choosing a course of action that ends up being the easy route? I don't often choose the sheer rock face of a mountain to get to the top because there are trails to hike instead (although I love rock climbing). Whatever I was doing prior to Impact wasn't [b:6fff85dec6]getting me what I wanted[/b:6fff85dec6] - in my job, in my relationships, in my spirituality, in other areas.

In your response above, I've highlighted three areas in this short paragraph that illustrates the point I'm trying to make about thinking subjectively versus objectively... your tone is certainly 'all about you', and also illustrates why many criticize LGATs as breeding ground for narcissism.

I know numerous 'Impacters' as you call them, and it's amazing - everyone uses the same semantics. Where is the individuality? Not only is it always about the self, but there is nothing unique about any of the reponses. Please pause and think about this for a moment, and then respond with something specific and uniquely yours, if possible.

Otter:

It is not necessary to attend an LGAT (large group awareness training) to understand why it's a bad idea.

Again see [www.culteducation.com]

Here are 13 reasons why LGATs like Impact is a bad idea.

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.