Quote
skeptic
I haven't been involved in this thread but I'd like to go on record to say that, after personal experience (six years) in an lgat and much analysis, education and examination subsequent to my time in one, I AM here to bash lgats!

Cheers, skeptic. Same here.

Quote
Otter
You know what guys? I came here to discuss, not be hammered on and accused if I don't answer your questions as you'd like. I've been giving you straight answer as I can and you choose to read all kinds of stuff into them that wasn't intended. Congratulations, [i:655f71a6df]you win[/i:655f71a6df]. I can't keep up with your intellectualism. If someone has some valid non-confrontational questions then I will answer them from the viewpoint of someone who isn't here to bash on Impact.

This is not about intellectuallism or [i:655f71a6df]arbitrary[/i:655f71a6df] "bashing" or "winning", the issues you want to address are complex and cannot be discussed in the simplistic terms you wanted to discuss them. Also, if you didn't want to talk to people who want to bash Impact, this was the absolutely WRONG place to post. I suggest you go to one of the many grad group sites that are out there. This is called the "Cult Education Forum", not the "GO CULTS GO!" pages. Besides, you don't have to be an intellectual giant to grasp what we are saying here.

Quote
rrmoderator
Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

You mean how I was told by an Impact trainee that their 'coach' MADE them do an assignment? But, they were told "You get to" and it was something humiliating. And they had to do it outside Impact as well as inside.

I suppose everyone has a choice whether to do the 'assignment' or not, however if you don't do it, you are told you cannot participate in the group anymore. To me, it sounds like a form of peer pressure you teach your children not to succumb to.

What, join the grads in seeing who sounds more like a Hans clone? No thanks. You guys may frustrate me a bit but at least its entertaining.

The Impact "official" yahoo group is moderated my someone you guys already know - Robert Paisola. He cybersquatted on impactrainings.com and the real site is impacttrainings.com - a difference of one letter.

Quote
Otter
The concept of hope that has been floated around here kinda illustrates this very idea. Impact says there is no hope because those who hope are basically saying that they want something to magically happen [i:285e36c6d0]instead of doing something about the situation[/i:285e36c6d0].

I could hope that my children don't get hurt by the child molesters of this world, or I could take an active participation to ensure, as much is humanly possible, that they are taught and act in safe ways to lessen that possibility. I could hope that the neighbor has food for the holidays or I could get her some myself.

I understand taking a pro-active approach to certain situations, because in a lot of situations that is how one changes something they may not like. BUT, that does not apply to all aspects of life. If someone I love comes down with a terminal illness, all steps are taken for treatment and it comes up to no avail., what do you do then? You can HOPE. And who is to say that something cannot magically happen? There are medical phenomenons you read/hear about, 'miracles', and in a lot of those articles/interviews you will hear them say, "We had hope." With all due respect, I disagree with the 'there is no hope' concept.

Quote
exImpact
You know, whoa, I am really glad you followed up your initial post. I've been hoping you would. I am sorry his situation hasn’t improved. Substance abusers really thrive on the environment Impact provides. Desperation overrides good judgment, and substance abusers have plenty. Patience is needed. If he will be your friend (if you can stand being around him) that is good. But any romantic concerns may have to take a back seat to the priority of his mental health. Logic, I think, will be a hard sell with him. It’s complicated, as you well know :) . We can talk about it on the board or you can PM me, but talking more in depth about “he said this to me today” or “he reacted this way today” etc. may work better in the PM, depending on what you think. With the information you’ve given, it’s a bit better, but I can only speak in generalities at this point. But it is a good start.

The rest of your post is relevant and valuable, I appreciate your contribution. I also hope for your friend and will do what I can to help.

Logic will be a hard sell with him? Absolutely. I feel as though I am watching a train wreck from the sidelines. (Have I said that before? I felt a de ja vu when I typed it.) I tried to speak up, but he somehow managed to flip it around and put it back on me. I'm not saying that I am an all knowing being, I learn new things every day! Since he joined this group, it is like his mind blurs out personal ethics and values and only cares about feeding its desires and pleasures. "I deserve". I don't want to go into the personal stuff on the board, but trust me, he's already crossed lines that he shouldn't have - it's costing him a lot and he doesn't even see it.

Do they really use staffs in the later trainings? Staffs? Like what....a wizard? Are they Lord of the Rings fans? I don't get it. :/

Note that psychiatric casualties also occur in previously normal people with no history of psychiatric problems in themselves or their families.

Otter,

Quote

one of the largest problems with LGAT's, and you just mentioned it. They don't screen the applicants to choose the ones who are likely to remain emotionally healthy.

They are not qualified to screen people to determine who is likely to remain emotionally healthy.

The main criteria seems to be that people who don't do the trainings remain healthy :)

Even those who claim to have benefitted have been found not to be emotionally healthy.


[www.culteducation.com]

Quote

Case histories suggest that the powerful psychological techniques and emotional stressors used in LGAT can in some cases overwhelm the coping mechanisms even of "normal" people who otherwise were functioning well, leading to decompensation, mental breakdown, or transitory psychosis

(#2). There is little to suggest that these mental breakdowns lead to long-term patterns of psychopathology. However, the outcome of transitory psychosis by itself is a severe injury.

Although some people seem to enjoy the psychoactive effect of their LGAT participation, others who decompensated as a result of their participation have described it as "hellish". Even though the benefits sought by many participants are those of personal growth and psychological well-being, to my knowledge there is no credible evidence that LGAT participation leads to significant improvement in core measures of mental health. If it were not for the intangible nature of the psychological process, this form of amusement product would most likely be banned as unsafe.

[www.culteducation.com]

Quote

Yalom and Lieberman's primary interest was in assessing the types and causes of psychiatric "casualties." The operational definition of a casualty was "an enduring, significant, negative outcome which . . . was caused by…participation in the group" (1972, p. 223)


In a startling finding, Yalom and Lieberman reported that 9.4% of the subjects met their stringent criteria and were therefore identified as casualties. The authors viewed this as a serious challenge to the entire movement.

The authors also determined that it was neither the psychological traits of the subjects (i.e., predispositional factors) nor the ideology of the leaders (i.e., doctrinal factors) that determined the casualty rate. Instead, surprisingly, it was the style of leadership that was primary. Leaders who were aggressive, stimulating, intrusive, confrontive, challenging, personally revealing, and authoritarian were the leaders who caused the casualties.

[www.culteducation.com]

Quote

We have argued that while many participants experienced a sense of enhanced well-being as a consequence of the training, these experiences were essentially pathological.

First, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted by environmental structuring, infantilizing of participants and repeated emphasis on submission and surrender.

Second, the ideational or interpretive framework provided in the training was also based upon regressive modes of reasoning--the use of all-or-nothing categories, absolutist logic and magical thinking, all of which are consistent with the egocentric thinking of young children.

Third, the content of the training stimulated early narcissistic conflicts and defenses, which accounts for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants. The devaluation of objective constraints upon a person's action promoted grandiose fantasies of unlimited power. A corollary to this devaluation of the external world wits that interactions with others lacked substance. People appeared to be interchangeable so that ephemeral, indiscriminate emotional contacts were experienced as profound and meaningful.

Identification with Lifespring necessitated considerable idealization so that any threat to this experience was aggressively defended against.

[www.culteducation.com]

Quote

Psychiatric disturbances associated with Erhard Seminars Training:
I. A report of cases.
L. L. Glass, M. A. Kirsch and F. N. Parris.
American Journal of Psychiatry 1977;134(3):245-7.
Erhard Seminars Training (est) is a large-group experience that is becoming widely available in this country. This is the first case report in the professional literature of psychiatric disturbance following est training. Five patients, only one of whom had a history of psychiatric disturbance, developed psychotic symptoms including grandiosity, paranoia, uncontrollable mood swings, and delusions. Further work is necessary to ascertain the factors that determine outcome in est.

Now, considering all the secrecy and so-called integrity conditioning, how many people who become casualties actually TELL their health workers what they've been through? Or even that they've attended an LGAT at all? The reported cases are the tip of the iceberg.[/quote]

ExImpact or Former impact grad:

Have either of you compiled a day by day description of the training, what is "taught", and what the docterine is from all levels or any levels from quest to TIT 3? I know there is a lot of info and tidbits throughout the forum, but I get the feeling that what is covered is just the tip of the iceberg and there is a lot more.

Quote
Otter
What, join the grads in seeing who sounds more like a Hans clone? No thanks. You guys may frustrate me a bit but at least its entertaining.The Impact "official" yahoo group is moderated my someone you guys already know - Robert Paisola. He cybersquatted on impactrainings.com and the real site is impacttrainings.com - a difference of one letter.

Well, this may surprise you, but I'm glad you are going to hang around Otter. I will henceforth call him, Robert Pervisola unless I am told not to.

Quote
jeffaroonyo24
ExImpact or Former impact grad: Have either of you compiled a day by day description of the training, what is "taught", and what the doctrine is from all levels or any levels from quest to TIT 3? I know there is a lot of info and tidbits throughout the forum, but I get the feeling that what is covered is just the tip of the iceberg and there is a lot more.

I am compiling a list. I also have tons of Trainers In Training material I want to ask Mr. Ross about before posting.

Quote
Whoa
Do they really use staffs in the later trainings? Staffs? Like what....a wizard? Are they Lord of the Rings fans? I don't get it. :/

In TIT 2 there is a lecture given about the sacred staffs that Jesus talks about in the New Testament, and that he told his apostles that their staff was the only worldly possession they require to sustain themselves (I am paraphrasing). So, your homework for the next week or two is to listen with your spirit and your natural knowing to find the Apostolic staff that will chose you to be used as a tool so that you can partake in the ancient traditions of the Masters of the Universe. Skeletor had one remember? Then you use crystals, symbols, words and/or sacred geometry to adorn that staff (if such trinkets are “called forth” by your wood) and you have a literal pillar of light to go along with your figurative one that supposedly shoots out of the top of your head like a divine umbilicus and connects you to the Source which is (trumpet fanfare) The GREAT CENTRAL SUN! The home of the Elohim, the Christs and all the other Superfriends. There ya go. I don’t think Skeletor is there though.

Quote
Whoa
Since he joined this group, it is like his mind blurs out personal ethics and values and only cares about feeding its desires and pleasures. "I deserve". I don't want to go into the personal stuff on the board, but trust me, he's already crossed lines that he shouldn't have - it's costing him a lot and he doesn't even see it.

I could relate to this behavior when I was one of the collective.