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Passionate
If I were to go about life without emotion then everyone would think I WAS a moron. I suggest the imbalance in the two is what creates a moron or idiot.

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Forrest Gump
Stupid is as Stupid Does.

A moron or idiot is a person who engages in moronic or idiotic behaviour. Taking the conversation too far beyond that unnecessarily complicates the issue.

I think Ex was implying that rather than attempting to work out some agreement between our mind and our "heart" (apparently a different organ than the one the pumps blood) in the hopes that somehow we end up improving ourselves, we are better off just observing our actions and tweeking behaviour when we see that it doesn't suit us.

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Passionate
Ex,

Interresting way of looking at it. Each of us seems to have a different way of envisioning the heart-mind connection. You seem to be very logic-based. Do you ever use your emotional side in a constructive way? I have seen emotion from you here..anger and such...which may be justified. Are you telling me you don't like emotion and that it doesn't have a big role in your life?

If I were to go about life without emotion then everyone would think I WAS a moron. I suggest the imbalance in the two is what creates a moron or idiot. Too much emotion creates someone who cannot see logic, and too much logic creates someone who cannot feel in touch with other humans on a non-intellectual level.

My mom is a perfect example in my life of someone who is unbalanced. She is pure emotion and wouldn't be able to see logic if it bit her on her nose.

Which came first the chicken, or the egg? This is a never ending argument on what is balance.

The more important aspect is how LGAT's do not create balance in people. They create imbalance in our society, while creating an illusion of balance for some.

This balance is confronted when someone doesn't agree with this balance for them in connection to this brainwashed person.

Good point Former. I still struggle with how the mind-spirit work together. Perhaps the mind is teh physical part of it and the spirit is more like the electricity that makes it work. who knows - certainly not me.

Sane, I am here to ask if anyone knows how to talk to their friends and former trainees about Impact. Surely someone here has some good experience with this as that is exactly what you all profess to want to do so badly. Any success stories out there? One person very early on this thread said their friend was patient with them and when the time was right they discussed how that Impact trainee had been acting and they saw the light of their actions.

I'm afraid that at the Pearly Gates literally thousands of people will be waiting there to say how I impacted their lives...some saying I was an inspiration to them and others saying how I was a part of their own misery on Earth from enrolling them in Impact and staffing their trainings. I'd rather do something about the latter now.

Sane, I never said I support Impact's processes or methods of getting the results they are after. I do think that there are a few jewels to take away from it. I do that every day at the grocery store or at work.

Oh and one more tidbit - there are a [i:6ac8f5ed04]BILLION[/i:6ac8f5ed04] Hindu / Buddhist followers who would disagree with you on this point. Perhaps a few Christians too. Our way of thinking seems psychotic to them. Just because it can't be proven in a laboratory doesn't mean they don't believe it. Prayer is the same thing - we can't prove it does anything but millions in this country do it every day. Do you think all those Eastern religion people are psychotic for doing that? If you do then I'd say, with majority rules, you are the psychotic one because there are a lot more "realities" supporting their way of expressing their beliefs.

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Sending energy is totally arrogant psychotic behaviour, whether you wrap it up in eastern religion or quantum mechanics. By 'psychotic' I mean out of touch with reality

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SaneAgain
People are welcome to their beliefs but when its covertly indoctrinated as is done in large group awareness training, personally I have a HUGE problem with it.

Somehow when a bunch of people are let out from an lgat and they all "think" alike I don't consider that their thoughts or beliefs are theirs. They THINK they are theirs, due to the tricky way they were implanted into their minds, but it's too weird that they all went in as individuals and all came out as carbon copies.

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Passionate
Oh and one more tidbit - there are a [i:9e352bf8f5]BILLION[/i:9e352bf8f5] Hindu / Buddhist followers who would disagree with you on this point. Perhaps a few Christians too. Our way of thinking seems psychotic to them. Just because it can't be proven in a laboratory doesn't mean they don't believe it. Prayer is the same thing - we can't prove it does anything but millions in this country do it every day. Do you think all those Eastern religion people are psychotic for doing that? If you do then I'd say, with majority rules, you are the psychotic one because there are a lot more "realities" supporting their way of expressing their beliefs.

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Sending energy is totally arrogant psychotic behaviour, whether you wrap it up in eastern religion or quantum mechanics. By 'psychotic' I mean out of touch with reality

You are implying that the "energy work" taught in TIT is the same as what is taught in the Hindu and Buddist religions and that is factually untrue. Hans and Co created their own doctrines and stole some others from new age philosophy. At that point they manipulated principles from a number of religions (Buddism, Hinduism and Christianity) in order to give an artificial credibility to what they were doing. Saying that Buddists and Hindus would relate to the TIT teachings is completely ridiculous.

No Former, I wouldn't suggest the Hindus or Buddhists would recognize Hans' Impact teachings because they have been adulterated to the point of no return. They do believe in Energy and Universal stuff that was probably the origin of Hans' teachings...or should I say the teachings of Harmony...er I mean the teachings of Lifespring...oops I mean EST.

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Passionate
No Former, I wouldn't suggest the Hindus or Buddhists would recognize Hans' Impact teachings because they have been adulterated to the point of no return. They do believe in Energy and Universal stuff that was probably the origin of Hans' teachings...or should I say the teachings of Harmony...er I mean the teachings of Lifespring...oops I mean EST.

If they wouldn't recognize Impact's perversion of some of their religious terms then why bother using the "Billion Hindu" example as a way to refute a statement about Impact's "energy work"? They are not the same thing and therefore your use of the one to justify the other is a manipulation of the facts to support an illogical conclusion.

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Rswinters
I am considering taking a break from this website not because I am in disagreement with what is being shared. It is however touching on the severe emotional wounds from my very recent enmeshed involvement with Klemmer…

Hi Rs,
You posted this quite awhile ago, and I wanted to tell you from personal experience that “taking a break” can be very helpful. I didn’t go cold turkey, but I do consciously moderate how often I check the boards and how often the boards and Impact are in my thoughts. Healing from the LGAT wounds requires one to be able to separate ones ego from all things LGAT. To make the relationship extrinsic as opposed to intrinsic. The LGAT must become an observable external object that is not associated with the individual’s identity that may be a trigger for stress and extreme emotion, as opposed to an internal trigger. Some separation from the subject is required to externalize obsession and create health and well-being. And from one obsessed man to another, based on your profound and prolific responses on this board, you are obsessed. This is NOT a criticism, I am too. But I think your idea I quoted here is a good one :)

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fatherof3
Another truth that robert talked about is that we all experience things differently. It is just like the scriptures. We all get different things out of it when we read them. That is why there is so many different versions of the Bible and so many different churches. I believe that is why i still feel like i had a good experience and i am not brainwashed. There was a lot of things that i enjoyed.

Yes Quest is mostly about degrading and putting everyone down but Summit and Lift off are about building you back up. It is just like boot camp. I am sure there are some people that come out of boot camp or military that have problems also. I think even thought what i read about Robert he had some valid points that maybe he was not meaning what he said it was still a decent point of view.

This statement could also be analogous with having Ted Bundy walk up to me and say, “Love thy neighbor.” Good advice, but its creepy no? And who would you give credit to this good advice? Jesus or the serial rapist/murderer? Hitler said “Death to the Jews!” but also was a patriot and loved his Germany. Patriotism and a desire for strength is good, right? Robert is a documented hypocrite, sex offender and a liar, and you give him mad props for making a good point?
Also, you may want to be careful with making generalized comments concerning relativist interpretations of scriptural texts. It is not always a good thing. If you are going to be a proponent of it you also have to champion the horrible atrocity caused by those who interpret the scriptures to rationalize genocide, homicide and much, much more.
Impact utilization of mental conditioning techniques goes all the way through TIT. Summit doesn’t break you down? Do you remember Life-Boat or Stretch-Day? Beg pardon, but you are seeing what you want to see. And Impact IS NOT a 1:1 comparison with boot camp! The purpose for the negative reinforcement techniques used in boot-camp is for one purpose and one purpose only, to make sure that when the solider next to you gets put down by enemy fire, you don’t stop to smell the roses while the rest of your platoon is cut to pieces! Boot-camp does what it does so that you can not only keep yourself alive, but also the soldiers you risk your life with. Impact does it to enforce Hans’s twisted theology into you while he picks your pocket. I suggest you do some research before you make generalizations like this.

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fatherof3
(a response to Rswinters) I feel like you are being a little defensive and need to not be so angry. I am saddend that you had a bad experience and wish you the best but because we all have been to different LGAT's also means that our experiences were different. No LGAT is the same except the mechanics of it most likely. You cant get the same experience unless you have the same exact trainer at the same time. So there is no need to feel like a victim. We are all wonderful people in a great discussion.

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fatherof3
I have never been quick to judge (at least in my mind my mouth might suggest otherwise some times )

Your mouth betrayed you here. Why this aversion to the expression of anger? People do not come to this site to happily express how they were mentally raped, spiritually corrupted and financially bankrupted! This is not a place for congenial conversation! We have BEEFS. HUGE intellectual, ethical and financial BEEFS. If you want nice and fluffy, go hit up Myspace.com. I (as are the majority are on this ANTI- cult site) am here to be indignant, not agreeable.

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fatherof3
(response to Rswinters) I did say however that every LGAT is different from the trainers to the trainees and so forth. I am not saying that any of them are right I just said for someone to talk about a different class shouldnt be comparing it to Impact it isnt a fair comparison. The mechanics are the same yes but not the learning. You are correct i have not read in depth this website i didtn know that was a requirement to have a discussion. When i have the time i will. I am learning about the distruction and harm. I have only seen one person so far that it has damaged out of my group. I AM STILL LEARNING but when you become defensive like you are it makes me wonder what your intentions are. There are better ways of getting your point across then attacking others. I thought you might have learned that from your experiences in your trainings.

fatherof3

Reading every thread word for word is not a requirement for posting on this site. But generally, research is a minimum requirement if you want to be educated about anything before you give a presumptuous and inaccurate opinion.

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fatherof3
. I am LDS but i have read a lot of bad about our church and am not afraid to learn. One thing I know is that God will always give us what we need weither it be a feeling or material. He is the one who will never lead us astray.

I am sure there are many people in TIT 3 who feel the same way.

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Passionate
My life is mostly great but I know others have been harmed by my angeling and staffing. Does anyone here know how I begin to talk to them and show them the truth?

I also need deprogamming in many areas. Any success stories on how I can do that too?

Deprogramming in what capacity? You really haven’t admitted to any kind of personal problems due to your exposure to Impact’s nonsense.

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Passionate
Rswinters, thank you for posting about how you are overcoming your stuff and for admitting that you have some deep-seated issues about yourself that were present for many years. I know that people who have problems are harmed by Impact at a greater level than people who are fairly stable before going throught it. Maybe you could look at Klemmer in a slightly different light that you have been - your experience with them allowed you to FINALLY get to those problems, maybe not in a way you would have chosen and certainly not in the training room at Klemmer but you ARE working them out now with a therapist when before you weren't because you were not aware they were problems to even work on. Klemmer awakened them in you...just a thought. Just think of how much better off you will be in 6 months as you clear these issues from your life.

In a sick twisted way, Klemmer did you a service. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't see it that way though. I wouldn't want to admit that either if were in your shoes.
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Then I began a very in depth look within myself with full critical thinking turned on in this introspective look.


This line brought out a bit of curiosity in me. I know in Impact this "getting real with ourselves and getting to the bottom line" was stressed at many times. How is a counselor different than Impact in this area? I don't see that I need a therapist right now but who knows.

Actually, I found your implication here sick and twisted. Rsw is a victim. LGAT’s make things worse. This is victim bashing. If you don’t understand the difference between the LGAT and professional psychotherapy, you need to go do research.

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Passionate
army-of-me, I agree with you on the heart - mind thing. One of the reasons the trainees do the stretches is to use them both in the extremes. Impact teaches us to balance the two. That balance will allow us to go about life in the most effective way. I agree with this. Balance is important. Their methods of getting us there may not be the best approach but the theory of balancing the two I cannot discount.

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exImpact
Well, how about instead of using your mind or your heart, why not use your brain? I mean, it controls the heart muscle and all emotional and rational processes occur there. Why is it that the most complicated organ in the world shouldn't get the nod for all the credit. Evidentially it is quite well documented that your brain can do all the things attributed to both the mind and "heart", and these various states of activity can be tracked and documented in the brain through the use of technology. As far as balance goes, yeah, its good I suppose, but I think logic and reason have to come first. Why else do you think this new-age therapy bullshit doesn't work? Emotions first then logic third or fourth even (if at all).

I think if people stopped focusing on balance and started focusing on how to stop being total morons, things would be better all 'round.

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Passionate
Ex,

Interresting way of looking at it. Each of us seems to have a different way of envisioning the heart-mind connection. You seem to be very logic-based. Do you ever use your emotional side in a constructive way? I have seen emotion from you here..anger and such...which may be justified. Are you telling me you don't like emotion and that it doesn't have a big role in your life? If I were to go about life without emotion then everyone would think I WAS a moron. I suggest the imbalance in the two is what creates a moron or idiot. Too much emotion creates someone who cannot see logic, and too much logic creates someone who cannot feel in touch with other humans on a non-intellectual level.

My mom is a perfect example in my life of someone who is unbalanced. She is pure emotion and wouldn't be able to see logic if it bit her on her nose.

Your response to my post was…an interesting way of looking at it. I don’t think you really read my post, you only read [b:e6ed9211d8]into[/b:e6ed9211d8] my post. The only think I told you was what I wrote. I do not have a different way to envision the heart/mind connection, I refute that there even is one. I never once said emotion was less important than logic. I did say that in general there is too much emphasis on emotion and not enough on logic. I also do not believe they are mutually exclusive processes (neither does psychology). Emotion is a complicated response to a logical (even when irrational) process. I made no statements in my post concerning my personal life, yet you made it out to be a personal one. Do not presume to know me solely based on my posts here. This is not a happy place, and talking about Impact is not a subject I am fond of visiting, but anger is far from the only emotion I have expressed on these boards. I am here because I want to prevent as much damage from the LGAT/Impact garbage as I possibly can, and I have the wherewithal to do it! (repeating myself….)

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Passionate
Rswinters, I didn't know you were attending therapy before Klemmer. Did your therapist want to say "I told you so" when you went back?

One thing I am glad about - I never enrolled any family member in Impact. Not even my passionately emotional mother.

That crystal of mine was really neat. As was the staff that asked me to carve neat patterns in it. They will be missed...temporarily.

Now where to start with the people who come up to me and say "I really connected with you in Quest as you staffed it." Smile and say thanks and let them decide their own fate?

Your initial question to Rs is insensitive. If your enrollments are conditioned into loving the training they have no reason to dislike you and if they hate the training it very well could be they won’t look kindly upon you. That’s the reality of it, I don’t think there’s anyway out of it. What do you mean your staff will be missed “temporarily”? Are you keeping it in the closet just incase you decide to go crazy again?

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Passionate

Oh and one more tidbit - there are a BILLION Hindu / Buddhist followers who would disagree with you on this point. Perhaps a few Christians too. Our way of thinking seems psychotic to them. Just because it can't be proven in a laboratory doesn't mean they don't believe it. Prayer is the same thing - we can't prove it does anything but millions in this country do it every day. Do you think all those Eastern religion people are psychotic for doing that? If you do then I'd say, with majority rules, you are the psychotic one because there are a lot more "realities" supporting their way of expressing their beliefs.

The majority of the people on the planet used to believe the earth was flat. The majority of the people on earth used to believe the planets the sun and moon revolved around the earth. The majority of people used to believe that bad thoughts and actions caused disease, not bacteria and viruses. The majority of people used to believe that flies simply appeared where waste collected. The majority of people used to believe AIDS could be passed on through casual contact. The majority of people used to believe that African people were not human and only as good as animals.

Majority rules?

What are these “realities” you claim exist that support their way of expressing their beliefs over science or other religion? (I thought you said evidence wasn’t important…).