Judge Not ?

From the first hour of Quest, trainees are conditioned to be non judgmental of “the process.” Eventually many trainees come out of the Impact ether and begin to question the process and use right and wrong as these word should be used by rational people. As Hope&Joy so correctly stated, Impact trainers quote from Him whenever it serves their self-serving purpose. The best example of their clever and insidious corruption of the scriptures is their use of Matthew 7:1. “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” On the face of it they are correct, but the real intent of Him was just exactly the opposite of the Impact theology. Many bibles in the Salt Lake Valley contain a revision of this verse which states, “Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.” Can you see why they want you to get rid of the right/wrong concept early on? When they achieve this, they can deflect any and all critical thinking about the process and Impact type training and get you to believe whatever thy feed to you. How does this build trust?

This forum has a purpose to inform with truth, facts and objective critical thinking. It isn’t judgement per se that is bad of course, it is only un-righteous judgement that is bad. No judgement at all is more than bad, it is stupid, suicidal, and responsible for much of the insanity that is caused by Impact Trainings and other LGATs.

Hopeful

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Hopeful Soul
Judge Not ?

From the first hour of Quest, trainees are conditioned to be non judgmental of “the process.” Eventually many trainees come out of the Impact ether and begin to question the process and use right and wrong as these word should be used by rational people. As Hope&Joy so correctly stated, Impact trainers quote from Him whenever it serves their self-serving purpose. The best example of their clever and insidious corruption of the scriptures is their use of Matthew 7:1. “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” On the face of it they are correct, but the real intent of Him was just exactly the opposite of the Impact theology. Many bibles in the Salt Lake Valley contain a revision of this verse which states, “Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment.” Can you see why they want you to get rid of the right/wrong concept early on? When they achieve this, they can deflect any and all critical thinking about the process and Impact type training and get you to believe whatever thy feed to you. How does this build trust?

This forum has a purpose to inform with truth, facts and objective critical thinking. It isn’t judgement per se that is bad of course, it is only un-righteous judgement that is bad. No judgement at all is more than bad, it is stupid, suicidal, and responsible for much of the insanity that is caused by Impact Trainings and other LGATs.

Hopeful

Hear! Hear! Hopeful Soul - Thanks for the Welcome...
For the record, it makes my skin crawl that they would quote from Him and use His words to make them 'appear' reputable in order to fool the trainees. :x

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Hopeful Soul
Judge Not ?

From the first hour of Quest, trainees are conditioned to be non judgmental of “the process.” Eventually many trainees come out of the Impact ether and begin to question the process and use right and wrong as these word should be used by rational people.

I, for one, am really tired of 'trying' to change the way my words come out of my mouth! It was an effort to learn the Impact Language in the first place, most of the time it made me appear a little stupid as I stumbled over the words and constantly corrected myself. Now I'm doing it again, only backwards this time, regaining a much broader vocabulary again as opposed to their rather small one: get to; I got that; create; there is no hope; working (or not); take it to the source; how is that a mirror of your life?; BE your word; deserve (that one really gets me!). It's amazing how many times they can repeat these words in a sentence/paragraph and think it makes sense! To me it all sounds too much like they've got a big mouth, a big head, and they're a big talker...all definitions of an egotist...interesting word for someone in Impact, don't you think? :lol:

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Hopeful Soul
eye witness accounts and experiences will build understanding of what is really going on in Bluffdale, UT. This is posted in that spirit.

And continuing in that spirit, I decided to post my experience with Impact:

A few years ago, my first child was born. It was a wonderful time at first, however a week after I gave birth, my hormones went crazy and I was overcome with severe Post Partum Depression, anxiety and Panic Disorder. I went into deep despair, depression, anxiety, had nightly gory dreams and constant panic attacks. (Very similar to what "sane again" described in a recent post.) The birth of an expected child is a cause for celebration, not deep despair, and there had been no recent tragic events in my life so it was obvious that I was sick solely due to fluctuating body chemistry. Because of this, most of my own efforts to get better were futile and luckily, antidepressants prescribed by my obgyn were a great antidote. Within a couple weeks I improved and within 4 months I was able to stop taking the antidepressants and I was pretty much back to normal. However, I did have a lingering problem. I had, a shaken faith in religion, feelings and spirituality. The problem was that my logical mind was the only thing that kept me remotely sane for awhile, and I didn't trust my feelings anymore. Also, my previous and flawed understanding of religion was that if you were living it right, you were happy. I was living a good life, yet I had temporarily been as far from happiness as I'd ever been. I struggled over the next few years to trust spirituality and my emotions, but wasn’t making any headway.
Anyway, fast forward 2 years. A friend of mine was convinced to attend Impact by a friend of hers, and returned from quest highly recommending it. She thought that Impact could help me recover the trust in my feelings and spirituality that I had lost after dealing with my post partum issues. She also said it could help better parts of my life that were already good, heighten my self confidence and I could meet new friends. I was very skeptical at first, but when my Mom offered to pay for it, I decided to try it out.

When I was at Quest I followed all of the instructions to a tee in hopes that I could attain all that was promised. This of course, had me unknowingly turn off the logical part of my mind, so I didn’t have a real chance to analyze what was really going while I was there. I am naturally a shy person, and I've worked on this over the years, and while I was there I put my most confident and friendly self forward. Whenever I had a question or comment, I stood and spoke, after which, Justin usually made a fool of me. I ended up in a generally mean, cliquish, and contentious group. When Justin told one person to leave because they weren't open, the group started yelling "Get the hell out, we don't want you here!" and some started to get up to physically remove him. I was ripped to shreds during the feedback arcs. (Things were said like: you are a loser, I couldn't be in a relationship with you because you wouldn't be worth the work it would take, you’re weak and I would walk all over you, you’re a scared little girl, you sucked all the energy and joy out of this space when you entered it, etc) I listened as Justin said things like "I'm not talking about religion here" and then 5 min later "There wasn't a war in heaven because heaven is unconditional love". The "screaming and beating of the chairs" to release past hurt, was almost pointless for me because I didn't have any major lingering problems with my parents or other relationships. So I didn't have the release that many others did.

After graduation, I was excited to be home with my family again, and the euphoria from that was stronger than anything from Impact. I left kind of confused, but I found myself recommending it to a couple people (I’ve talked to all of them recently and told them not to go). I wrote down everything that I thought I learned from Quest and implemented the teachings into my day-to-day life. Being the "real me" all the time was feeling pretty good at first, but I started hurting people's feelings because I wasn't being as sensitive to others as normal. The other "tools" just weren't working, and I started noticing that all they were doing was making me blame myself instead of the "tool" when it wasn't helping.

Then one day, when I was playing a computer game with my competitive brother-in-law, he was egging me on and said something that hurt my feelings a little bit. It wasn't something that should have been a big deal, but on the way home I started sobbing. That night, I had a nightmare about being back in the feedback arcs. The next day I noticed I had anxiety whenever I was talking to someone I didn't know very well. Whenever someone inadvertently used an "impact word" I also noticed that it was an anxiety trigger. Because of my experience with anxiety and depression before, I recognized these feelings pretty quickly, and it really scared me that anything to do with Impact was triggering this kind of stuff. I was reluctant to answer the phone or talk to anyone, because I was afraid that my group’s impressions of me from the feedback arcs, were a reflection of everyone’s honest opinions of me. If that was what people generally thought of me, when I was trying to be my best, I wondered why I should even try anymore. I realized that my "walls" that impact had tried to take down in Quest, were mostly there to protect me, and that all it was really for was to have me be more open to their "processing" and as a side effect, I was open to reckless psychological damage.

That's when I first joined the rickross board. Reading throught it confirmed my fears that Impact was psychologically reckless, but I also saw that Impact was even worse in the upper levels. Around that time was when the full realization hit me. I was shocked at how easily I had accepted there now obviously flawed and dangerous beliefs. It sickened me how so many people in my group were completely convinced that Impact had life's answers, and that their life was changes in the space of four days. I recalled a person in our group who was a convicted sex offender, and since he thought he had been "cured", he nor anyone else saw a problem with him bonding with the 17 year old girls in our group. (I don't mean that to sound so judgmental, however, it showed me how potentially dangerous their philosophies were.) I saw how easy it was for someone to be brainwashed without them having any idea it was going on. I started noticing similarities between Impact's mind manipulation, and techniques used by: my parents raising me, church, school, peer pressure, etc. All of a sudden it seemed as my reality had become an illusion and I had no idea what was truth or real anymore. When someone's reality seemingly crumbles before them, it is a very psychologically damaging experience. I had a relapse of the deep despair I'd experienced with post-partum depression and I could barely function for a week. My self-esteem was shattered, my feelings had "betrayed" me again, and my trust was non-existant. (Ironically, when I did the "trust exercise" at Quest, I told almost everyone I trusted them.)

Since then, I've been talking to a therapist, to friends and family, and researching a lot. I'm starting to find out the difference between mind manipulation and parenting, religion and school. Reality has started coming back into focus. I am now able to recognize "cultish" behavior fairly easily, and conversely also recognize healthy methods of teaching, parenting, religion, and self improvement. For example: I recognize more ways that authoritarian parenting can damage a child, or how some people can essentially be in a cult, (even when what they belong to isn't necessarily all that cultish), simply because of the fanatical way they treat and view their the organization or belief system. I still have a lot to work through, though, I'm still reacting psychologically to "impact triggers" and I have trust and self-esteem to rebuild.

Hope&Joy wrote, "To me it all sounds too much like they've got a big mouth, a big head, and they're a big talker...all definitions of an egotist...interesting word for someone in Impact, don't you think?"

Yes! There is another word however that applies better. It is the opposite of humble, humility, not the opposite of shameful, slovenly, sloppy etc. That word is PRIDE!

My first impressions of Impact, (based on results) was that it was concentrated, intense, wreckless, shameful PRIDE training.

This notion will resonate with many, and they will know what the antidote is.

Hopeful

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Hope&Joy
Afterall, to quote someone they were ALWAYS quoting: [i:17fccb0749]"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."[/i:17fccb0749] John 15:13. Apparently, you can only quote from Him when it served their purpose.

Actually, I heard this addressed many times during the lifeboat experience. I only bring this up to point out the stark contradiction that was later revealed to me.

Many people would use this quote to justify why they had chosen to die on the lifeboat and I remember as a staff member LOVING when it would come up because I always thought it was a great lesson (makes me want to puke now). The way the trainers would address it is by saying that while Jesus the Christ could lay down his life for others the only reason he could do it is because he HAD a life to begin with; i.e. if you haven't lived your life to its fullest, if you're still holding on to past pain, anger, frustration, or contention (the moldy peanuts), if you haven't learned to unconditionally love, if you're not living completely from spirit, or you haven't TRULY embraced your inner child then YOU ARE NOT WORTHY TO GIVE YOUR LIFE FOR SOMEONE ELSE BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T TRULY LIVED YOURS AND THUS DON'T HAVE ONE TO GIVE. (Emphasis added as something similar to this is often yelled by Pamela). This also encompasses what I think they are trying to teach through the whole life boat process, of course, few really understand in all the yelling and confusion. (It took me several times staffing to "get it".)

Now, here's where the contradiction comes in. In TIT you learn that you were always perfect, you are perfect, and that you will always be perfect. If this is the case then the whole argument above falls flat on its face. If everything I've done that "appeared" wrong was only to benefit the learning of someone else then why am I "unworthy" to give my life. This is another example of the trainers justifying the information they give to the trainees in the core trainings versus the upper level trainings. They would say they only go through this whole discussion during life boat to give the trainees feedback about how they feel about themselves and their lives; that they must give milk before the meat, when in reality it's all just a justification of their own contradictions.

BTW, if I'm so "unworthy", why do I "deserve" the abundance of life from the abundance table later on in Summit?

I had a different experience in Lifeboat. I kept my own vote and received the second highest number of votes in the training. For me, in my core training, this was one of the few processes that didn't tear me down.

Spiritual?, in reference to the perfection they teach, I saw it a bit differently. I didn't see that they actually taught that we are perfect in the literal sense, like Jesus ws said to have been perfect because he didn't sin, but that I am the perfect me no matter what I do. All of my actions are a total reflection of who I am. My personality, beliefs, thoughts and actions are at all times mine. It doesn't mean I live a moral life (morality is relative) or that I might not have room for improvement, just that I am me. I might not have described that well but I did my best.

With that thought, would there still be the contradiction that you pointed out earlier?

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Passionate
I had a different experience in Lifeboat. I kept my own vote and received the second highest number of votes in the training. For me, in my core training, this was one of the few processes that didn't tear me down.

Spiritual?, in reference to the perfection they teach, I saw it a bit differently. I didn't see that they actually taught that we are perfect in the literal sense, like Jesus ws said to have been perfect because he didn't sin, but that I am the perfect me no matter what I do. All of my actions are a total reflection of who I am. My personality, beliefs, thoughts and actions are at all times mine. It doesn't mean I live a moral life (morality is relative) or that I might not have room for improvement, just that I am me. I might not have described that well but I did my best.

With that thought, would there still be the contradiction that you pointed out earlier?

Of course the contradiction still exists! The insinuation in lifeboat was not that Jesus was perfect so giving up his life made a difference but rather that Jesus' life was valuable and the Lifeboat trainees' lives were not. The example used in Lifeboat only works if the implication is that the trainees' lives have absolutely no value!

As far as the Otter thing goes, there are plenty of ways to not get banned. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to alter an IP address or use a different email account. Otter is/was an absolute fanatic and it seems unlikely that his departure from the site coincided seamlessly with your arrival. Especially since you seem to have the same MO as Otter.

Let's say there was a carnival that traveled to town to town. The crew was extremely reckless and many of the rides weren't set up properly. Because of this a number of the riders were severely injured everytime a ride finished. Unfortunately, the injured riders exited the ride where the oncoming passengers couldn't see what had happened and unsuspecting riders continued to stand and line and ride the rides. After the carnival left town, word got out that this carnival was injuring people and people started speaking out about the injuries and calling for the carnival to be shut down before it visits another unsuspecting town. Although not every rider was injured, the family members, friends and generally caring community members were alarmed by the injuries.
When you say things like this:

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Passionate
I had a different experience in Lifeboat. I kept my own vote and received the second highest number of votes in the training. For me, in my core training, this was one of the few processes that didn't tear me down.

You are essentially telling an injured rider: "I had a different experience at the carnival. I had a fun time on the rides and none of [i:e60462bf0f]my[/i:e60462bf0f] hands or feet were cut off, I didn't suffer any head injuries or heart problems."
Would you not agree that a comment like this would be insensitive and utterly pointless?

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Passionate
I am the perfect me no matter what I do. All of my actions are a total reflection of who I am. My personality, beliefs, thoughts and actions are at all times mine. It doesn't mean I live a moral life (morality is relative) or that I might not have room for improvement, just that I am me.

So for thousands of dollars, one of the things you learned is that “today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You.”
I recall Dr. Suess teaching me that for under $15.

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Passionate
morality is relative

I don't even know where to start with this one...