Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 05, 2009 01:59AM
hello mr. ross,
i think that the questions/statements that come to mind are:
1. i'm thinking that a sweat lodge (or sauna) is not something "owned" by any culture and not something that requies "official sanction" by a
tribal authority (i.e. Native American or Russian or African or Turkish).
2. if an organization is touting it's sweat (or sauna) as Native American, is there some legal requirement as to obtaining "official sanction"
from Native American tribal authority? i'll have to research that one.
3. yes, the sweat utilized in mkp is a part of what one pays for. so, i guess that fits into commercialization.
4. yes, groups can disagree with/about organizations charging money for a sweat. does that negate the authenticity of said sweat?
i can't make a blanket statement such as that without hard core data.
5. if an organization wanted "official sanction", who/what is the "one size fits all" tribal authority that can grant such sanctioning?
i just got off the phone with an mkp person who stated that he is Native American and he performs the sweat (although he would not call it a sweat).
i'm still processing in my head what he shared with me. i guess what i'm saying is that i'm not at all happy with what he shared in that i believe
his responses were politically tinged and protective. i was hoping for strictly objective responses.
i'll be in touch
thank you.
floatingfreebear
i think that the questions/statements that come to mind are:
1. i'm thinking that a sweat lodge (or sauna) is not something "owned" by any culture and not something that requies "official sanction" by a
tribal authority (i.e. Native American or Russian or African or Turkish).
2. if an organization is touting it's sweat (or sauna) as Native American, is there some legal requirement as to obtaining "official sanction"
from Native American tribal authority? i'll have to research that one.
3. yes, the sweat utilized in mkp is a part of what one pays for. so, i guess that fits into commercialization.
4. yes, groups can disagree with/about organizations charging money for a sweat. does that negate the authenticity of said sweat?
i can't make a blanket statement such as that without hard core data.
5. if an organization wanted "official sanction", who/what is the "one size fits all" tribal authority that can grant such sanctioning?
i just got off the phone with an mkp person who stated that he is Native American and he performs the sweat (although he would not call it a sweat).
i'm still processing in my head what he shared with me. i guess what i'm saying is that i'm not at all happy with what he shared in that i believe
his responses were politically tinged and protective. i was hoping for strictly objective responses.
i'll be in touch
thank you.
floatingfreebear
Quote
rrmoderator
floatingfreebear:
There is no such official sanction by Native American tribal authority for any of the phony "sweat lodges" being hyped and sold by for-profit companies or groups like MKP.
Again, all the source you cited/linked demonstrates is the commercialization of so-called "sweat lodges" and nothing else.
Please stay on topic.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 05, 2009 02:19AM
floatingfreebear:
Official sanction would be from tribal officials, such as Navajo, Hopi, Apache, Pueblo, etc.
MKP has no such sanction per your admission and is using a "bastardization" of a Native American tradition.
There is no law about this per my understanding and it seems anyone can rip off the religious tradition of a group to make money. It is unethical though, and the Native American leaders have objected to it.
I doubt a tribe will sue MKP and/or another group that has ripped off their tradition.
But calling what MKP does a "sweat lodge" is misleading and causes Native American leaders legitimate concern.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 02:22AM by rrmoderator.
Official sanction would be from tribal officials, such as Navajo, Hopi, Apache, Pueblo, etc.
MKP has no such sanction per your admission and is using a "bastardization" of a Native American tradition.
There is no law about this per my understanding and it seems anyone can rip off the religious tradition of a group to make money. It is unethical though, and the Native American leaders have objected to it.
I doubt a tribe will sue MKP and/or another group that has ripped off their tradition.
But calling what MKP does a "sweat lodge" is misleading and causes Native American leaders legitimate concern.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 02:22AM by rrmoderator.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 05, 2009 12:23PM
good evening to all and I hope your day has been fruitful...
so far in my asking questions in mkp, here is what i've been told:
1. the original ceremony was "gifted" way back in the early '90s.
2. in 1994, 20 men came together to review and create a ceremony that
was not a Native American sweat lodge, but similar in intent
3. it is called "The Purification & Renewal Ceremony". It is NOT called a sweat lodge.
4. there are many safety factors invovled.
5. there has been increased awareness because of the Ray/Sedona incident.
6. there is a concern on the concept of cultural appropriation.
7. i still have several more mkp organizations checking in with me on their sweat safety situations.
based on my very brief research, what i've discovered is:
1. regardless of what it is called (sauna, bath, sweat, sweat lodge or Purification & Renewal), many countries & cultures
have them as a part of their histories.
2. mkp inserted the P&R ceremony, in its weekend retreat back in the late 80s. however it is not advertised.
3. yes, apparently, Native American traditions have been gifted and/or modified and inserted not only in the p&r ceremony
but also in other parts of mkp's weekend retreat.
4. there is concern & emotion from Native Americans (also called First Nation) on non-Natives learning their culture
and heritage and using or mis-using it.
5. there is no law or requirements or legal regulations over the usage of "sweats, sweat lodges, saunas, p&r ceremonies", except, of course
in gyms and the like.
overall, there is no "guilt by association". That is:
1. Native Americans are not to be blamed for the deaths in Sedona.
2. mkp is not to be blamed for the deaths in Sedona.
3. just because "the spiritual warrior" folks badly executed a sweat does not mean that all sweats are badly executed.
4. there is no relationship between James Ray and mkp. Ray did not learn and execute his sweat lodge from mkp.
4. there are no requirements or ethics or policies that require anyone in any part of the globe to obtain any approval from any group to execute
a sweat.
5. although i don't like the word bastardization... mkp apparently has taken things from several cultures in devising its p&r ceremony
on the concept of cultural appropriation...
we exist in a country where a lot of appropriation and damange has been done to the group of people known as Native Americans or First Nation.
everyone can choose to be respectful and kind to that group and ask for their permission & approval for rituals. If it is not given, then don't use
the rituals. however realistically, there is no moral, legal or ethical requirement to ask for approval. one need only do a goole search on "sweat lodge" or "how to build a sweat lodge" and one will be presented with a myriad of choices from which one can learn how to build & execute
a "sweat".
where do i stand in all this? first, my condolences to the victims and families of the Sedona incident. second, i would encourage mkp to review it's protocols that include Native American symbols/rituals and seek out some overall approving authority, within the First Nation and work with them. or challenge mkp men to look at their own non-Native pre-Christianity histories and find very similar things and add/replace them in the weekend retreats. if the Natives did not give their approval, then my advice to mkp would be "don't use the rituals" anymore.
yes, i do understand that most in this forum believe that LGAT organizations should not do what they do. and in regards to mkp, i believe that mkp should stay in business.
i hope this clarifies and have a good nite.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
so far in my asking questions in mkp, here is what i've been told:
1. the original ceremony was "gifted" way back in the early '90s.
2. in 1994, 20 men came together to review and create a ceremony that
was not a Native American sweat lodge, but similar in intent
3. it is called "The Purification & Renewal Ceremony". It is NOT called a sweat lodge.
4. there are many safety factors invovled.
5. there has been increased awareness because of the Ray/Sedona incident.
6. there is a concern on the concept of cultural appropriation.
7. i still have several more mkp organizations checking in with me on their sweat safety situations.
based on my very brief research, what i've discovered is:
1. regardless of what it is called (sauna, bath, sweat, sweat lodge or Purification & Renewal), many countries & cultures
have them as a part of their histories.
2. mkp inserted the P&R ceremony, in its weekend retreat back in the late 80s. however it is not advertised.
3. yes, apparently, Native American traditions have been gifted and/or modified and inserted not only in the p&r ceremony
but also in other parts of mkp's weekend retreat.
4. there is concern & emotion from Native Americans (also called First Nation) on non-Natives learning their culture
and heritage and using or mis-using it.
5. there is no law or requirements or legal regulations over the usage of "sweats, sweat lodges, saunas, p&r ceremonies", except, of course
in gyms and the like.
overall, there is no "guilt by association". That is:
1. Native Americans are not to be blamed for the deaths in Sedona.
2. mkp is not to be blamed for the deaths in Sedona.
3. just because "the spiritual warrior" folks badly executed a sweat does not mean that all sweats are badly executed.
4. there is no relationship between James Ray and mkp. Ray did not learn and execute his sweat lodge from mkp.
4. there are no requirements or ethics or policies that require anyone in any part of the globe to obtain any approval from any group to execute
a sweat.
5. although i don't like the word bastardization... mkp apparently has taken things from several cultures in devising its p&r ceremony
on the concept of cultural appropriation...
we exist in a country where a lot of appropriation and damange has been done to the group of people known as Native Americans or First Nation.
everyone can choose to be respectful and kind to that group and ask for their permission & approval for rituals. If it is not given, then don't use
the rituals. however realistically, there is no moral, legal or ethical requirement to ask for approval. one need only do a goole search on "sweat lodge" or "how to build a sweat lodge" and one will be presented with a myriad of choices from which one can learn how to build & execute
a "sweat".
where do i stand in all this? first, my condolences to the victims and families of the Sedona incident. second, i would encourage mkp to review it's protocols that include Native American symbols/rituals and seek out some overall approving authority, within the First Nation and work with them. or challenge mkp men to look at their own non-Native pre-Christianity histories and find very similar things and add/replace them in the weekend retreats. if the Natives did not give their approval, then my advice to mkp would be "don't use the rituals" anymore.
yes, i do understand that most in this forum believe that LGAT organizations should not do what they do. and in regards to mkp, i believe that mkp should stay in business.
i hope this clarifies and have a good nite.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
Quote
rrmoderator
floatingfreebear:
Official sanction would be from tribal officials, such as Navajo, Hopi, Apache, Pueblo, etc.
MKP has no such sanction per your admission and is using a "bastardization" of a Native American tradition.
There is no law about this per my understanding and it seems anyone can rip off the religious tradition of a group to make money. It is unethical though, and the Native American leaders have objected to it.
I doubt a tribe will sue MKP and/or another group that has ripped off their tradition.
But calling what MKP does a "sweat lodge" is misleading and causes Native American leaders legitimate concern.
Re: Sweat Lodge Deaths from JAR Retreat
Posted by:
SeekingTruth
()
Date: November 05, 2009 10:51PM
What's this crap from floatingfreebear. That's what I find curious - MKP claims to be a bonafide organisation yet its members hide behind pseudo-Native American names. The Rajneesh Osho cult do exactly the same using pseudo-Indian (Asian) names. ST
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 10:56PM by SeekingTruth.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 10:56PM by SeekingTruth.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 05, 2009 10:51PM
To whom it may concern:
For those reading this thread "floatingfreebear" has demonstrated through his posts that MKP use and/or abuse Native practices and traditions and has in fact "has taken things from several cultures in devising its p&r ceremony." And there "are no requirements or ethics or policies that require anyone in any part of the globe to obtain any approval from any group to execute a sweat."
Buyer beware.
See [www.culteducation.com]
MKP has already settled one wrongful death lawsuit linked to its programs.
Also see [www.culteducation.com]
"floatingfreebear" says "that mkp should stay in business."
But based upon the group's history of bad press and complaints I would warn anyone considering MKP to beware.
For those reading this thread "floatingfreebear" has demonstrated through his posts that MKP use and/or abuse Native practices and traditions and has in fact "has taken things from several cultures in devising its p&r ceremony." And there "are no requirements or ethics or policies that require anyone in any part of the globe to obtain any approval from any group to execute a sweat."
Buyer beware.
See [www.culteducation.com]
MKP has already settled one wrongful death lawsuit linked to its programs.
Also see [www.culteducation.com]
"floatingfreebear" says "that mkp should stay in business."
But based upon the group's history of bad press and complaints I would warn anyone considering MKP to beware.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
SeekingTruth
()
Date: November 05, 2009 11:46PM
Quote
rrmoderator
To whom it may concern:
But based upon the group's history of bad press and complaints I would warn anyone considering MKP to beware.
Yet more reasons to give this abusive cult a wide miss is from the comments here:
[blogs.houstonpress.com]
"MKP's NWTA and subsequent training is amateur in its Jungian therapy approach. The leaders of the weekend tend to be relatively intelligent, however usually have no professional training in counseling."
"MKP steeps itself in a soup of various pagan, druid, and native american belief systems. Interestingly, none of the beliefs represented by the group are Christian in any shape or form."
ST
Re: Mankind project, internet marketing
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 06, 2009 03:02AM
@ floatingfreebear
is clearly some type of MKP internet marketer, trying to do a little damage control for MKP.
MKP cannot stop threads and posts that turn up in the search engines about MKP, so instead they figure what they can do is spam the threads with a bunch of junk that will at least attempt to confuse those MKP people who are on the fence.
The worst thing about the approach of poters like "floatingfreebear" is they try to come off as seeking a "gentle debate".
Meanwhile, once people arrive in the MKP LGAT bootcamps, its a different story, its an intense bootcamp, where they use every mind-crushing technique in the book on people and hammer away at their minds, and break down their core belief and identity systems in 48 hrs.
The only conclusion one can draw from that, is that they are doing a deliberate bait & switch, targeting the Sensitive New Age Guy, and then eating his lunch.
No one wants to get duped, and then ripped off.
On top of that, amateurs fooling around with the Jungian archetypes, and the rest of it can really mess people up.
On top of that, the clear LGAT style bootcamp "mental breakdown" techniques being used by MKP are quite obvious and apparent.
MKP is something to stay away from.
is clearly some type of MKP internet marketer, trying to do a little damage control for MKP.
MKP cannot stop threads and posts that turn up in the search engines about MKP, so instead they figure what they can do is spam the threads with a bunch of junk that will at least attempt to confuse those MKP people who are on the fence.
The worst thing about the approach of poters like "floatingfreebear" is they try to come off as seeking a "gentle debate".
Meanwhile, once people arrive in the MKP LGAT bootcamps, its a different story, its an intense bootcamp, where they use every mind-crushing technique in the book on people and hammer away at their minds, and break down their core belief and identity systems in 48 hrs.
The only conclusion one can draw from that, is that they are doing a deliberate bait & switch, targeting the Sensitive New Age Guy, and then eating his lunch.
No one wants to get duped, and then ripped off.
On top of that, amateurs fooling around with the Jungian archetypes, and the rest of it can really mess people up.
On top of that, the clear LGAT style bootcamp "mental breakdown" techniques being used by MKP are quite obvious and apparent.
MKP is something to stay away from.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: November 06, 2009 06:33AM
Gee, folks...I don't know. After reading everything that floatingfreebear wrote I have changed my mind.
I will strip off my clothes, run naked in the woods beating drums and cursing my mother and maybe walk on hot embers as 'proof' of my manhood. Don't forget the other pseudo-homosexual doings that goes on with passing the sacred dildo and other bizarre behaviour.
And as a cherry on top, for their 'wisdom' and 'knowledge' which they will give me all I have to do is give them some greenbacks to the salesman (read: 'elder') and sign away my legal right to sue for damages done.
I can't wait to humiliate myself, have a mental breakdown (or worse) and require years of therapy!
I think I will call myself 'nothingsfree&bare'. That sounds macho and semi-native-american, right? It's also right to the point...
I will strip off my clothes, run naked in the woods beating drums and cursing my mother and maybe walk on hot embers as 'proof' of my manhood. Don't forget the other pseudo-homosexual doings that goes on with passing the sacred dildo and other bizarre behaviour.
And as a cherry on top, for their 'wisdom' and 'knowledge' which they will give me all I have to do is give them some greenbacks to the salesman (read: 'elder') and sign away my legal right to sue for damages done.
I can't wait to humiliate myself, have a mental breakdown (or worse) and require years of therapy!
I think I will call myself 'nothingsfree&bare'. That sounds macho and semi-native-american, right? It's also right to the point...
Re: Mankind project, internet marketing
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: November 06, 2009 06:37AM
Quote
The Anticult
@ floatingfreebear
The worst thing about the approach of poters like "floatingfreebear" is they try to come off as seeking a "gentle debate".
Meanwhile, once people arrive in the MKP LGAT bootcamps, its a different story, its an intense bootcamp, where they use every mind-crushing technique in the book on people and hammer away at their minds, and break down their core belief and identity systems in 48 hrs.
On top of that, the clear LGAT style bootcamp "mental breakdown" techniques being used by MKP are quite obvious and apparent.
MKP is something to stay away from.
Gee, The Anticult, from your description this sounds like torture almost as bad as 'waterboarding' and probably a lot more effective and damaging in the long run. Why can't businesses like MKP be brought up on charges in the courts? Couldn't some lawyer start a class action lawsuit for the families and loved ones of MKP victims (read: attendees).
It sounds like clear and vicious torture to me...Even if the 'attendees' signed away their rights, what about the rights of the families caring for the tortured souls who are scarred for years from these bastards? Can't monetary damages be leveled of such a huge amount (class-action) that MKP and other LGATS can be bankrupted and put out of business for good?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2009 06:43AM by Sparky.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 06, 2009 06:43AM
LOL!!! thanks sparky. that was good!!!
floatingfreebear
floatingfreebear
Quote
Sparky
Gee, folks...I don't know. After reading everything that floatingfreebear wrote I have changed my mind.
I will strip off my clothes, run naked in the woods beating drums and cursing my mother and maybe walk on hot embers as 'proof' of my manhood. Don't forget the other pseudo-homosexual doings that goes on with passing the sacred dildo and other bizarre behaviour.
And as a cherry on top, for their 'wisdom' and 'knowledge' which they will give me all I have to do is give them some greenbacks to the salesman (read: 'elder') and sign away my legal right to sue for damages done.
I can't wait to humiliate myself, have a mental breakdown (or worse) and require years of therapy!
I think I will call myself 'nothingsfree&bare'. That sounds macho and semi-native-american, right? It's also right to the point...
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