Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 06, 2009 10:18PM
floatingfreebear:
"It wasn't for them"?
This is the standard apology to brush aside bad outcomes from LGATs.
Of course it ignores the inherent problems with LGATs and why there are so many bad outcomes, complaints, bad press and litigation over personal injuries and at times wrongful death.
See [www.culteducation.com]
In this research paper regarding "mass marathon training" otherwise often called LGAT (large group awareness training) psychologist Philip Cushman examines what's wrong with such training groups.
Cushman offers 13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
He also offers for warning signs when groups were determined to be dangerous.
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs typically rely upon coercive persuasion techniques.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Sociologist Richard Ofshe offers some research regarding this method of persuasion often called "brainwashing" in popular culture.
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Psychiatrist Robert Lifton offers eight criteria to determine if a group is using what he calls a "thought reform" program.
1. Control of communication
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
4. Obsessive demands for confession
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
These methods differ sharply from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychologist Margaret Singer makes these distinctions in her book "Cults in Our Midst."
Some time ago an anonymous member of this message board posted the training manual of MKP, which is kept secret and not disclosed to the general membership. The manual exposes the fact that MKP training events are highly scripted. MKP objected that its copyright was violated so the complete text has been edited within "fair use" guidelines to demonstrate the pattern of persuasion used by MKP.
See [forum.culteducation.com]
"It wasn't for them"?
This is the standard apology to brush aside bad outcomes from LGATs.
Of course it ignores the inherent problems with LGATs and why there are so many bad outcomes, complaints, bad press and litigation over personal injuries and at times wrongful death.
See [www.culteducation.com]
In this research paper regarding "mass marathon training" otherwise often called LGAT (large group awareness training) psychologist Philip Cushman examines what's wrong with such training groups.
Cushman offers 13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
He also offers for warning signs when groups were determined to be dangerous.
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs typically rely upon coercive persuasion techniques.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Sociologist Richard Ofshe offers some research regarding this method of persuasion often called "brainwashing" in popular culture.
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Psychiatrist Robert Lifton offers eight criteria to determine if a group is using what he calls a "thought reform" program.
1. Control of communication
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
4. Obsessive demands for confession
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
These methods differ sharply from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychologist Margaret Singer makes these distinctions in her book "Cults in Our Midst."
Some time ago an anonymous member of this message board posted the training manual of MKP, which is kept secret and not disclosed to the general membership. The manual exposes the fact that MKP training events are highly scripted. MKP objected that its copyright was violated so the complete text has been edited within "fair use" guidelines to demonstrate the pattern of persuasion used by MKP.
See [forum.culteducation.com]
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 07, 2009 01:45AM
good afternoon mr. ross.
thank you. this is quite a bit of information. i need to read and research on it.
i will.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
thank you. this is quite a bit of information. i need to read and research on it.
i will.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
Quote
rrmoderator
floatingfreebear:
"It wasn't for them"?
This is the standard apology to brush aside bad outcomes from LGATs.
Of course it ignores the inherent problems with LGATs and why there are so many bad outcomes, complaints, bad press and litigation over personal injuries and at times wrongful death.
See [www.culteducation.com]
In this research paper regarding "mass marathon training" otherwise often called LGAT (large group awareness training) psychologist Philip Cushman examines what's wrong with such training groups.
Cushman offers 13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
He also offers for warning signs when groups were determined to be dangerous.
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs typically rely upon coercive persuasion techniques.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Sociologist Richard Ofshe offers some research regarding this method of persuasion often called "brainwashing" in popular culture.
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Psychiatrist Robert Lifton offers eight criteria to determine if a group is using what he calls a "thought reform" program.
1. Control of communication
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
4. Obsessive demands for confession
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
These methods differ sharply from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Psychologist Margaret Singer makes these distinctions in her book "Cults in Our Midst."
Some time ago an anonymous member of this message board posted the training manual of MKP, which is kept secret and not disclosed to the general membership. The manual exposes the fact that MKP training events are highly scripted. MKP objected that its copyright was violated so the complete text has been edited within "fair use" guidelines to demonstrate the pattern of persuasion used by MKP.
See [forum.culteducation.com]
ManKind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend summary
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: November 07, 2009 03:20AM
That is a good report.
You can see MKP is trying to do a number of things. They are trying to mimick the "Initiation" ceremonies from tribal cultures where boys become men.
That is why they feel justified lying to people and tricking them about what is going to happen, as in tribal societies they terrorize the boys in these ceremonies, and don't tell them anything.
This report also shows an important point. That when a regular guy who does not have trauma or serious issues goes to a seminar, its much harder to break him down. But even a guy without serious issues, does feel the peer pressure to do most things.
But MKP and other LGAT target men with trauma, and some of these guys have terrible childhood sexual trauma, rape, abuse, torture, which needs treatment from trained licensed professionals.
But you see how they get the guys to write out their trauma, and then FLOOD them with the trauma, which is the most DANGEROUS thing you can do. It can lead to psychological collapse and suicide.
So a regular guy without trauma might just get the hell out of there after a few days.
But the guy with serious trauma, gets literally RE-TRAUMATIZED, and can have his entire life wrecked by that process.
This is why every LGAT targets vulnerable people. Even people who have "good intentions" will target vulnerable people and trigger their trauma and flood them with it. Their "good intention" is very damaging.
But they seek the drama of the psychological breakdown, which is the worst thing to do with trauma.
The guys who have set up and are running it, seem to have copied other LGAT who push people to breakdown, as that creates "customers" who are dependant for years, and who are desperate, and will buy anything.
MandKind Project is a potentially very damaging LGAT system.
You can see MKP is trying to do a number of things. They are trying to mimick the "Initiation" ceremonies from tribal cultures where boys become men.
That is why they feel justified lying to people and tricking them about what is going to happen, as in tribal societies they terrorize the boys in these ceremonies, and don't tell them anything.
This report also shows an important point. That when a regular guy who does not have trauma or serious issues goes to a seminar, its much harder to break him down. But even a guy without serious issues, does feel the peer pressure to do most things.
But MKP and other LGAT target men with trauma, and some of these guys have terrible childhood sexual trauma, rape, abuse, torture, which needs treatment from trained licensed professionals.
But you see how they get the guys to write out their trauma, and then FLOOD them with the trauma, which is the most DANGEROUS thing you can do. It can lead to psychological collapse and suicide.
So a regular guy without trauma might just get the hell out of there after a few days.
But the guy with serious trauma, gets literally RE-TRAUMATIZED, and can have his entire life wrecked by that process.
This is why every LGAT targets vulnerable people. Even people who have "good intentions" will target vulnerable people and trigger their trauma and flood them with it. Their "good intention" is very damaging.
But they seek the drama of the psychological breakdown, which is the worst thing to do with trauma.
The guys who have set up and are running it, seem to have copied other LGAT who push people to breakdown, as that creates "customers" who are dependant for years, and who are desperate, and will buy anything.
MandKind Project is a potentially very damaging LGAT system.
Quote
SeekingTruth
If anyone is in any doubt that MKP does not run benign healing retreats here's one report:
Newsgroups: sci.psychology.psychotherapy, soc.men, alt.support.ex-cult, alt.self-esteem, uk.people.support.mental-health
Date: 20 Feb 2007 10:27:48 -0800
Local: Tues, Feb 20 2007 6:27 pm
Subject: Mankind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend - 1
I went to a Mankind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend, I was made
to go by my boss who went and returned exclaiming "for once, I'm
making decisions with my heart, not my head!" After crying to me that
I had to go, I relented... this was my boss after all, and I felt that
to not go would seriously jeopardize my job. He demanded that several
of us from the office attend. One of the fellow attendees was a good
friend/co-worker of mine and thank goodness for both of us that we had
each other to rely upon during this BIZARRE weekend.
It started on Friday night, we were told to show up between 6 and 7
pm. As we arrived at the ranch it was being held, a man was guarding
the road, when we pulled up he stared at us for a few seconds as if he
was going to kick our ass (puh-leeze..) then asked in gruff yelling
voice, "Who are you? What are you here for?!" We had to answer him one
at a time as he repeated his yelling question to each of us... "okay",
we thought- "getting weird already..."
We drove up the road to the lodge where we were instructed to get in
line and wait until called into the main building. One at a time we
were called towards the building. Once there, two of the 'elders'
greeted me at the door, they were pleasant, asking if I was willing to
"push my boundaries this weekend" and "experience new things, etc..."
I told them, "yeah, sure..." "Great" they replied, "And do we have
permission to remind you of your agreement to push your boundaries,
etc...?" "Sure" I replied... whatever. "Welcome to MPK and see the man
inside the door" They then instructed me.
I walked through the door, and was greeted by a guy dressed from head
to toe in black, with black face paint and black bandanna, as I
glanced around the room, all of the guys were wearing similar
'commando' type attire.... He glared at me not saying a word.
Obviously trying to intimidate me - I was anticipating some sort of
"breaking down" technique, but COME ON! These guys looked SILLY!
Anyway, he just stared at me for around a minute- I jokingly tried to
make small talk with him, but obviously to no avail- he wanted to
INTIMIDATE me! Of Note: I'm a pretty big guy, in excellent athletic
shape, and I'm not easily intimidated... especially by some goof
trying to act tough... so I just started chuckling to myself... Like I
said, Silliness!
After the silent period he finally yelled at me to "SEE THE NEXT
MAN!'
The next man was only 2 feet away so I side-stepped to in front of him
and asked him how he was doing etc.. once again to no avail- he gave
me the silent treatment too..... until he finally told me to, "SEE THE
NEXT MAN"
The next man then asked for my personal effects, watch, phone, car-
keys, rings, etc--- He put these in a bag for safe keeping during the
weekend and then I was instructed to "SEE THE NEXT MAN"
The next man was actually men, in the next room- the room was dark and
empty except for a couple of tables with a spotlight over each one- at
each table were the guys who where in front of me in the original
line. The commando goof-balls were busy pouring out and searching
everything in everyone's overnight bags.. After each of us was
searched, frisked, etc we were screamed at (all communication at this
point was screaming- as I said, this was the beginning of the breaking
down process...) to go down this hall...
At the end of the hall, was one of the 'elders' again- he was calm and
peaceful again, asked a few questions and then instructed me to go to
the next room...
The next room was full of the other guys who were in line before me,
this was the 'holding-pen' for everyone until everyone showed up. We
had to sit on the floor while another 'elder', a fat old guy wearing
only a loin-cloth was beating a drum and doing these rhythmic
breathing exercises... once again, puh-leeze.....
After 45 min or so, when everyone was there, we were summoned up to
the main hall. All the instructors and elders were there, all still in
commando garb.... (you think that between 15 guys, one of them would
realize that they looked silly.... oh well...) We were welcomed and
then warned that this would be a weekend that will be difficult, but
one we'll never forget... boy, was he right!! He then broke into this
shpeal about, "how you could resist, but that's not why you came....
yes... you could resist, but that's not while you came." repeating
over and over, all dramatic like.... extreme silliness!
After the initial speech/orientation we were instructed to divide into
groups for our instruction/training. The first one was an attempt to
make us recognize that we are men. So we had to go around the group
and finish the sentence, "I am a man because _________." Some of the
instructors when first to demonstrate.. the first one: "I am a man
because I can pee standing up!" WHAT! Did I just somehow revert to 2nd
grade again?? The next instructor to demonstrate announced, "I am a
man because I've GOT A COCK!" I did somehow revert to 2nd grade....
"Geez, could these guys please be a little more infantile??" I thought
to myself. My buddy who was there and I were rolling our eyes at each
other from across the room at this point.... It was going to be a
loooooong weekend.
Next exercise: "Repeat after me, "I wimp out with women by _________."
The instructors demonstrated to begin. The first, "I wimp out with
women by putting the seat back down after peeing!" The next, "I wimp
out with women by letting HER choose the movie!". "Holy Shit! These
guys are ridiculous!" I was thinking!!
We went through a few more exercises like this, all equally silly,
until they called us all together again. I'm guessing it was probably
around 1:00 to 1:30 am at this point- they took our watches away so
nobody really knew. They announced that the night was over and we were
to retire to the cabins to sleep. They told us that we would be woken
in the morning and that when we were awoken, we would each have to get
naked and take a one-minute cold shower. And to make sure that nobody
cheated, each man would go one at time while the rest of the cabin
watched and counted to 60...... "WHAT! Who does that sort of thing? This
is going from silly to WEIRD," I thought to myself. But to be honest,
the real weirdness hadn't even started- just the homoeroticism.
SATURDAY MORNING
We were woken up at who knows what time.... But everyone was still very
tired- here again, my buddy and I had read up before the weekend and
so we were expecting a degree of sleep deprivation. We took our
showers... and watched and counted for each other... It's amazing what the
group dynamic can make a person do, huh?
Then we were escorted to the main hall for breakfast, which consisted
of dry cereal and cold water. This took place during the middle of
winter in upstate NY where it was COLD, so suffice to say, this meal
was less than fulfilling.... All morning we went through more silly
"educational" sessions like the previous night. And did a few
meditation exercises as well, and of course, what warrior training
would be complete without choosing your spirit animal? So we each did
that.... Lunch was the same, handfuls of dry cereal and cold water. But
after lunch, it started....
"It" started with all the instructors/elders yelling and beating drums
and making a huge ruckus- during which they brought in two sections of
carpet- This was going to be the "hero's journey" part of our warrior
training. We were split into two groups, one on each carpet.
These carpets, we were told, represented our universes. An important
part of any Warrior myth, is the "hero's journey." This is where the
hero has to go and face his demons, then harness those powers and come
away stronger because of it- pretty common theme- see Luke Skywalker,
Beowulf, Neo of the Matrix, et al.... But I digress...
So we were told that these carpets were our universes where our
'hero's journey' would play out. We were then warned that we might not
survive due to the difficulty of the journey, it would be perilous, we
would need all of our strength, etc... They asked who would go first-- I
volunteered. I figured I'd get it over with... One of the elders walked
up to me on the carpet, again asking if I was ready, it would be
dangerous, etc etc- "yeah, yeah, I'm fine" I replied.
Then about 5 instructors walked out onto the carpet and began drilling
me with questions. Sidenote: When we first showed up we had to fill
out a questionnaire, asking if we'd ever been molested, raped, were
gay, bisexual, if we'd had any traumatic experiences, problems growing
up...etc- Luckily for me, I haven't been molested, I haven't been raped,
and I haven't had any traumatic experiences that still plague me---
Believe it or not, I had a good childhood and I'm well adjusted now
(thanks mom and dad!) Well, they didn't believe it, so they started
really attacking me verbally, trying to get me to break down. But I
was kind of laughing at their attempts.
Somehow a bunch of old, out of shape men playing Indian warrior
doesn't really intimidate me. As this is playing out, I'm watching
what's going on the other carpet across the room from the corner of my
eye-the guy over there you stepped up first, all of a sudden got
tackled by several of the instructors----- "WHOA!" I thought to
myself, "if any of these guys try to pull some physical bulls$%t on me
I will f#%k them up!...." Let's just say I wasn't in the mood to
tolerate anything like that... They then instructed me to "close my
eyes!"
I figured it was to blindside me... a few of them had circled around to
behind me... I was halfway expecting one of them to clock me in the back
of the head or something. So I told them to essentially go to hell and
that I wasn't not going to close my eyes for them. They didn't like
that answer. So a few more instructors joined in with the others and
amount of screaming at me doubled.... Finally once they realized that
they weren't going to be able to "break" me they started chiding me
for "not being ready!" etc, and to "GET THE F%&K OFF THE CARPET!!!!"...
Whatever guys...
The next guy in our group stepped up, and they began drilling him with
questions. Remember that they had info from each man about his
personal traumas and the instructors were reading off of index cards
as each man stepped forward. So anyway the next guy steps up, they
start drilling him and all of a sudden he breaks down, crying, falling
to his knees.... "WHEN I WAS 9 I GOT RAPED IN MY ASS BY AN OLD MAN!!!!"
"BROTHERS!' the elders screamed, "this man has been abused, anyone who
has been abused like this, step forward and place a hand on this
brother to show your support!" All of a sudden EVERYONE there stepped
forward except for me! I was freaked! What kind of group was this? How
could there be such a large percentage of abused people in one group??
All sorts of questions were running through my head... This was getting
weirder and weirder...
So to "cure" this man, they set up a scenario: He was on one side of
the carpet, in front of him were two instructors, one represented the
man's "shame" the other represented his "loneliness" or something like
that-Behind them was a third man, he represented the old man that
caused the trauma. So the guy then had to connect with his inner-rage,
referred to as his "shadow" by the MKP and break through his "shame"
and "loneliness" and push the old man off the carpet and hence out of
his universe... sound kind of strange? It was!
This went on all day long, with these guys, using each man's
questionnaire to break him down- at one point one guy COMPLETELY broke
down. I mean this guy was BROKEN! Screaming hysterically, shaking
uncontrollably.. I figured they were going to have to sedate him and
take him away in a padded van. AND I'M NOT TRYING TO BE FUNNY OR KID
AROUND HERE!! This guy was broken! They tried to calm him down for
about 30 minutes but couldn't.. so they took him outside, away from
the groups to try to calm him down.
From my spot on the carpet, I could see them trying to console him out
on the porch, but to no avail-this guy was broken! (I've read a few
mentions on this website of people committing suicide after MPK
weekends... I don't know if any of that's true, but this guy clearly
needed to be put under some kind of suicide watch at this point!! Once
again, I'm not kidding.) Finally after about an hour and half of him
being 100% hysterical, they instructors finally 'cured' him... How you
ask? THEY WALKED AROUND HIM 3 TIMES WITH BURNING SAGE!!!!!
At this point I was over it! This couldn't be legal, or ethical! F$
%CKING NEW AGE jerk-offs! Who the f%$k do they think they are!!!?
I'm getting so mad reliving this as I write this.... Relax... mellow....
Okay....
This went on all day until dinner. After dinner (cereal and water) we
did a few more exercises and then were told to retire to our cabins.
"But," they exclaimed, "the night wasn't over..."
Around an hour later, I'd guess it was around 9:00 pm by now, but once
again, who knew? The instructors started drumming again, summoning us
to the lodge. We were all led into a small room, the "holding-pen"
from the first night. Once there we were told to blindfold ourselves.
Once blindfolded, we were told to strip and throw our clothes in the
middle of the room... This was too MUCH! But once again, the group
dynamic... who's going to protest?
Blindfolded, we all stripped, we were then told to hold hands and we
were led in a long line towards the main hall. As we approached the
hall, we could hear drumming and yelling. As we entered the hall our
blindfolds were ripped from our heads- the hall was lighted by only
the large fireplace at one end of the room, in the middle of the room
was an alter comprised of candles, swords and animal pelts..
(Sidenote: our group consisted of about 20 initiates and maybe 15 MPK
instructor/elders) But in the lodge were no fewer than 65 men (not
including us 20 initiates!) and every one of them was buck naked and
writhing to the drumming.... And I mean WRITHING, they were dancing,
shaking their asses at each other, seeing who could shake their
scrotoms the hardest to each other... it was the most bizarre thing I
have ever seen-and I hope to ever see. I was expecting it to devolve
into a huge gay orgy at any second. Once again, I'm not trying to be
crass or funny, this is the truth.
After about 10-15 minutes of the homoerotic dancing melee... we were
called to order. Us initiates were arranged in a semi-circle in front
of the fire while the elders were up front. The other 60-some men were
arranged throughout the room. One at time they introduced themselves
-"I'm Thundering Stallion, I've traveled from NY City to be here!"
"I'm Laughing Wildebeest, and I have traveled all the way from Boston
to be here with you.." And on and on.... Each man used only his 'animal'
name.. and they all traveled far to be with us.... Lucky us....
We then went through a silly drawn-out new age style ritual where we
were each greeted one at a time and declared "Warriors!!" After the
ceremony we given the choice, we could return to our cabins to
contemplate or we could stay at the lodge to dance the night away with
the other men. Naturally my buddy and myself opted VERY QUICKLY for
the return to the cabin option. As did most of the other initiates.
Once returning to the cabin, my buddy and I were PISSED. It was at
that time that we decided that at first light we were leaving.
The weekend was supposed to last until around 6 or 7 pm on Sunday, but
my buddy and I were packed and ready to go at first light- we went to
the instructors cabin and walked in- they told us to get out! We told
then we wanted our car keys etc, because we were leaving. Naturally,
they then got PISSED! We expected them to make a huge scene in front
of the other initiates but after about 20 minutes of a few of them
pressuring us to stay, "But we're not finished!" "We still have the
renaming exercise!," "But we still have to do the sweat lodge!" (I
read the post about them telling guys to touch each other's dicks
during the sweat, and while I can't speak to that, I wouldn't be
surprised) "Yeah, that's great guys, but as we said, we're outta here,
gimme my car keys!"
Finally they relented. Luckily, my buddy and I had carpooled together
so we weren't in that trap. And by the way, we felt that the carpool
request by MKP was exactly that, a trap so people couldn't leave
without a huge hassle...
All in all, it was the strangest weekend of my life. At this point, my
buddy and I feel that the primary goal of MPK is to create a safe spot
for gay men to come out in. Whether or not this is true is debatable,
but the weekend dripped homosexuality constantly, and the complete
lack of ethical guidelines, to this day, bothers the hell out of me.
Sorry this has been so long and rambling, but there was a lot to tell...
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
SeekingTruth
()
Date: November 07, 2009 04:31AM
Quote
floatingfreebear
i do understand that there is a lot of hurt, pain, & emotion surrounding many who attended MKP weekends. It wasn't for them.
One of thre BIG problems with LGATs is that in the ever increasing search for paying punters pre-selection and vetting is not an issue. If MKP is as benign as ffb implies then how come guys are even reporting negative experiences let alone committing suicide. Smoke and fire spring to mind and I'm not talking about sweat lodges. These guys could have been filtered out of the process at the beginning. Yet MKP accepted them in the arrogant believe that amateur Jungian / Gestault experiences supervised by untrained amateurs will heal hurts from the past. But then the amateurish (infantile) culture endemic in MKP indicates that it obviously does not have professionals even vetting applications from intending particants. I opine that this approach is deliberate. MKP WANTS weak and abused men (in common with all LGATS I know of). That is men who will not stand up and challenge the processes, but take the beatings without complaint. How does that create a new world order of assertive and loving men?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2009 04:34AM by SeekingTruth.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 07, 2009 08:16AM
good evening everyone,
with your permission, may we bottom-line this?
i think it's safe to say that you want mkp to hang out the "out of business" sign.
i think it's safe to say that is not going to happen.
there are a lot of things you know about mkp and you don't like and you want to warn people away or at least give them a lot more information before they make a choice to attend an MKP retreat. fine. i support you in what you do.
beyond that, allowing creativity to extend to dishonesty does not work. that is, trying to create a link between the Ray/Sedona incident and mkp simply because they both do sweats is not honest. promoting "guilt by association" is wrong. by doing these things, you "become what you eat".
now these words may seem a bit harsh, but i think it's best to be upfront.
you all make a lot of valid points and mkp has made a lot of changes (including its "vetting" process for attendees) due to the incidences you state.
and anyone can bring just as much (if not more) data espousing the positives of mkp.
and we can debate ad nauseum...
i don't want to do that.
so, i am happy that this forum exists for:
1. those who need a haven like this.
2. those who can get "the other point of view" that might help them in their choice of workshop attendances
3. historical references.
so, please keep on doing what you're doing AND do it with the utmost intent of honesty and integrity.
thank you.
ffb
with your permission, may we bottom-line this?
i think it's safe to say that you want mkp to hang out the "out of business" sign.
i think it's safe to say that is not going to happen.
there are a lot of things you know about mkp and you don't like and you want to warn people away or at least give them a lot more information before they make a choice to attend an MKP retreat. fine. i support you in what you do.
beyond that, allowing creativity to extend to dishonesty does not work. that is, trying to create a link between the Ray/Sedona incident and mkp simply because they both do sweats is not honest. promoting "guilt by association" is wrong. by doing these things, you "become what you eat".
now these words may seem a bit harsh, but i think it's best to be upfront.
you all make a lot of valid points and mkp has made a lot of changes (including its "vetting" process for attendees) due to the incidences you state.
and anyone can bring just as much (if not more) data espousing the positives of mkp.
and we can debate ad nauseum...
i don't want to do that.
so, i am happy that this forum exists for:
1. those who need a haven like this.
2. those who can get "the other point of view" that might help them in their choice of workshop attendances
3. historical references.
so, please keep on doing what you're doing AND do it with the utmost intent of honesty and integrity.
thank you.
ffb
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: November 07, 2009 09:30AM
SeekingTruth, thanks for the very enlightening posts from "survivors" of MKP. I really enjoyed them and think anyone who is lurking here should read before going to the crazy MKP weekend.
floatingfreebear, What rrmoderator gave you is simple and to the point and does not need much to "research on". This is posted here and elsewhere on this website and reiterated again and again. As an 'elder' of MKP you have a vested interest in keeping the insecure men rolling through the ever-chewing MKP maw.
I question the tax-exempt status the USA apparently gives your org. With all the mental damage done, perhaps instead of a government-run health scheme the country would be better served taxing your org to help pay for the strain on the mental health system.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2009 09:52AM by Sparky.
floatingfreebear, What rrmoderator gave you is simple and to the point and does not need much to "research on". This is posted here and elsewhere on this website and reiterated again and again. As an 'elder' of MKP you have a vested interest in keeping the insecure men rolling through the ever-chewing MKP maw.
I question the tax-exempt status the USA apparently gives your org. With all the mental damage done, perhaps instead of a government-run health scheme the country would be better served taxing your org to help pay for the strain on the mental health system.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2009 09:52AM by Sparky.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 07, 2009 02:00PM
good evening sparky
i hope your day has gone well.
I support you in your statements about people reading the posts before going to an MKP weekend.
sparky, i always do my own research and come to my own conclusions. i invite everyone to always do the same in every situation.
never take anything for granted fron anybody. i think mr. ross and i would find mutual ground on this.
you wrote: As an 'elder' of MKP you have a vested interest in keeping the insecure men rolling through the ever-chewing MKP maw.
i have no interest vested or otherwise in whether or not men keep coming through or not.
yes, i support the existence of mkp. yes. i believe it has done enormous good. yes, there have been many problems.
however, i believe the good outweighs the problems. if i believed the problems outweighed the good, then i would work towards putting mkp out of business. i will not do that.
if people chose to believe the mkp retreat is crazy that is ok with me.
as to the comments about tax-exempt status, i will leave that in your hands.
i think that mr. ross is doing good work by bringing these issues to the forefront for discussion and creating a space for those who may have experienced some type of pain due to cults, LGATs, etc. and i applaud mr. ross for this.
for the rest of you, it is good the support you give to mr. ross. i caution you however.... doing such things as "guilt by association" tactics puts you in the same category as those you complain about. don't lower yourself to a bad standard.
we are almost at an end on this thread.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
i hope your day has gone well.
I support you in your statements about people reading the posts before going to an MKP weekend.
sparky, i always do my own research and come to my own conclusions. i invite everyone to always do the same in every situation.
never take anything for granted fron anybody. i think mr. ross and i would find mutual ground on this.
you wrote: As an 'elder' of MKP you have a vested interest in keeping the insecure men rolling through the ever-chewing MKP maw.
i have no interest vested or otherwise in whether or not men keep coming through or not.
yes, i support the existence of mkp. yes. i believe it has done enormous good. yes, there have been many problems.
however, i believe the good outweighs the problems. if i believed the problems outweighed the good, then i would work towards putting mkp out of business. i will not do that.
if people chose to believe the mkp retreat is crazy that is ok with me.
as to the comments about tax-exempt status, i will leave that in your hands.
i think that mr. ross is doing good work by bringing these issues to the forefront for discussion and creating a space for those who may have experienced some type of pain due to cults, LGATs, etc. and i applaud mr. ross for this.
for the rest of you, it is good the support you give to mr. ross. i caution you however.... doing such things as "guilt by association" tactics puts you in the same category as those you complain about. don't lower yourself to a bad standard.
we are almost at an end on this thread.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
Sparky
()
Date: November 08, 2009 02:56AM
Quote
floatingfreebear
i think that mr. ross is doing good work by bringing these issues to the forefront for discussion and creating a space for those who may have experienced some type of pain due to cults, LGATs, etc. and i applaud mr. ross for this.
for the rest of you, it is good the support you give to mr. ross. i caution you however.... doing such things as "guilt by association" tactics puts you in the same category as those you complain about. don't lower yourself to a bad standard.
we are almost at an end on this thread.
i'll be in touch
floatingfreebear
"we are almost at an end on this thread."???
I was unaware this thread was coming to an end; or do you mean you are almost done posting here? It's tough to be an apologist.
Re: Mankind project
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 08, 2009 06:12AM
Good Afternoon Sparky. I hope you're having an enjoyable Sat.
you wrote:
Definition of apologist:
n. [French apologiste; see APOLOGY],
a person who writes or speaks in defense or justification of a doctrine, faith, action, etc.
Definition of apology
n. Latin apologia Germana apologia a speaking in defense , apo-,, from + logos, word]
1. a formal spoken or written defense; argument to show that some idea, religion, etc. is right.
2. an acknowledeging and expressing regret for a fault, injury, insult , etc; asking for a person's pardon.
interesting. while i certainly call myself an mkp supporter, i would never have used the expression "apologist". no, this has not been a "tough" process. it's been a relatively easy one, and thankfully, a respectful, courteous one. when i wrote "we are almost at an end on this thread", i meant that we have covered the issue of "guilt via association" concerning the Ray/Sedona incident and mkp's sweats and there is no association & no guilt. we have covered "sweat safety" in mkp's p&r ceremonies. (in a somewhat brief fashion) and that is complete.
those are the reasons why i joined this thread. beyond that, i have just a few more things to understand, based on what mr. ross has submitted, therefore my time & reason is coming to closure.
as i've stated, this forum and mr. ross, serves a great purpose and i support him and you in what you do, as long as you do it with fact, proper intestigation & ethics. so, i guess that makes me an RR Forum apologist (smile).
if there is anything else i can assist, please do share.
floatingfreebear
(just a nickname, absolutely nothing to do with Native culture and nothing to do with mkp)
you wrote:
Quote
Sparky
"we are almost at an end on this thread."??? I was unaware this thread was coming to an end; or do you mean you are almost done posting here? It's tough to be an apologist.
Definition of apologist:
n. [French apologiste; see APOLOGY],
a person who writes or speaks in defense or justification of a doctrine, faith, action, etc.
Definition of apology
n. Latin apologia Germana apologia a speaking in defense , apo-,, from + logos, word]
1. a formal spoken or written defense; argument to show that some idea, religion, etc. is right.
2. an acknowledeging and expressing regret for a fault, injury, insult , etc; asking for a person's pardon.
interesting. while i certainly call myself an mkp supporter, i would never have used the expression "apologist". no, this has not been a "tough" process. it's been a relatively easy one, and thankfully, a respectful, courteous one. when i wrote "we are almost at an end on this thread", i meant that we have covered the issue of "guilt via association" concerning the Ray/Sedona incident and mkp's sweats and there is no association & no guilt. we have covered "sweat safety" in mkp's p&r ceremonies. (in a somewhat brief fashion) and that is complete.
those are the reasons why i joined this thread. beyond that, i have just a few more things to understand, based on what mr. ross has submitted, therefore my time & reason is coming to closure.
as i've stated, this forum and mr. ross, serves a great purpose and i support him and you in what you do, as long as you do it with fact, proper intestigation & ethics. so, i guess that makes me an RR Forum apologist (smile).
if there is anything else i can assist, please do share.
floatingfreebear
(just a nickname, absolutely nothing to do with Native culture and nothing to do with mkp)
Re: ManKind Project 'New Warrior Training' weekend summary
Posted by:
floatingfreebear
()
Date: November 08, 2009 06:57AM
good evening all,
1. speaking honestly, i don't read very long posts.
2. the anticult, i want to speak to your points.
you wrote:
MandKind Project is a potentially very damaging LGAT system.
so the question is... IS mkp a damaging LGAT system and what empirical, objective testing/results can be used to decide that?
and if that testing methodology were to show that mkp IS a damagaing LGAT system, then what?
and if that testing methodology were to show that mkp IS NOT a damagaing LGAT system, then what?
thank you.
i'll be in touch.
ffb
1. speaking honestly, i don't read very long posts.
2. the anticult, i want to speak to your points.
you wrote:
MandKind Project is a potentially very damaging LGAT system.
so the question is... IS mkp a damaging LGAT system and what empirical, objective testing/results can be used to decide that?
and if that testing methodology were to show that mkp IS a damagaing LGAT system, then what?
and if that testing methodology were to show that mkp IS NOT a damagaing LGAT system, then what?
thank you.
i'll be in touch.
ffb
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