No thanks on the email exchange.
I'll try to be a little more expressive. Perhaps I am misreading you, but it appears to me that you are equating a leader in MKP with a therapy practice with professional oversight. IMHO that is a bit of a stretch.

IMO oversight would include adherence to the APA's code of ethics and standards such as those listed below. With a mechanism for adressing problems and complaints and ensuring proper training and accountability.


(from APA)
Principle C: Integrity
Psychologists seek to promote accuracy, honesty, and truthfulness in the science, teaching, and practice of psychology. In these activities psychologists do not steal, cheat, or engage in fraud, subterfuge, or intentional misrepresentation of fact. Psychologists strive to keep their promises and to avoid unwise or unclear commitments. In situations in which deception may be ethically justifiable to maximize benefits and minimize harm, psychologists have a serious obligation to consider the need for, the possible consequences of, and their responsibility to correct any resulting mistrust or other harmful effects that arise from the use of such techniques.

10.01 Informed Consent to Therapy
(a) When obtaining informed consent to therapy as required in Standard 3.10, Informed Consent, psychologists inform clients/patients as early as is feasible in the therapeutic relationship about the nature and anticipated course of therapy, fees, involvement of third parties, and limits of confidentiality and provide sufficient opportunity for the client/patient to ask questions and receive answers. (See also Standards 4.02, Discussing the Limits of Confidentiality, and 6.04, Fees and Financial Arrangements

5.03 Descriptions of Workshops and Non-Degree-Granting Educational Programs
To the degree to which they exercise control, psychologists responsible for announcements, catalogs, brochures, or advertisements describing workshops, seminars, or other non-degree-granting educational programs ensure that they accurately describe the audience for which the program is intended, the educational objectives, the presenters, and the fees involved




On your point about the vision quest, if the leader of the vision quest experience searched my clothes, went through my medicines and took my personal possesions and then did a pat down, you are correct, I would complain. IMO that would be wrong and if that hadn't been disclosed prior to coming to a vision quest I would be irritated.

MKP does not pretend to provide therapy or psychological counseling. The therapist I mentioned told a young man attending an I-group for the first time, "As you can see, this is not therapy." The young man agreed. I take it he knew what therapy felt like.

What MKP does provide at the weekend training is a number of "processes" which I think are designed to shift our attention to important considerations. For me, the most powerful one involved the concept, mentioned several times before the process actually began, that someone's life might depend on my giving not up. I really got into that one, though no actual danger was involved during the "process."

This provided a powerful experience and alternative to cutthroat competition. A good counter-cultural lesson. (I hope you are not so loyal to our culture that your behavior shows that you endorse mindless consumerism, cutthroat individualism, excessive rationalism, and other little goodies that various aspects of our culture endorse.)

For me, the main proof that MKP is not a cult is that each of us is encouraged learn some new perspectives and new skills if we are FIRST convinced that what we''ve been doing isn't working very well.

Not all men need MKP. But all can benefit from it -- unless first they need some serious therapy.

sol37:

Most mass marathon training groups are clever enough to make statements that they are not "therapy" to avoid licensing problems, meaningful accountability or liability issues.

What is interesting about MKP is its notes to leaders through its manual.

Anyone interested should start at the beginning of this thread and see how these notes guide the group leader to manipulate the thoughts and emotions of participants through each activity and exercise.

See [board.culteducation.com]

Of course no one, but the leader knows this and of course those individuals that wrote and distributed the MKP manual.

MKP actually threatened litigation in an attempt to keep this information off this message board. But it has been excerpted within "fair use" guidelines so that anyone interested in MKP can see how it really operates.

Also the parallels have been noted on this thread (start from the beginning) between what MKP does, mass marathon training and coercive persuasion techniques.

See the following links on these subjects:

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

I'll respond insofar as I am able, one part at a time.

"...see how these notes guide the group leader to manipulate the thoughts and emotions of participants through each activity and exercise."

Sounds accurate to me. The word "manipulate" sounds ugly, but we get attempted manipulation of thoughts and emotions in class, in church, at political gatherings...and any time we engage in communication.

I hope you are not suggesting that manipulation of thoughts and emotions proves existence of dangerous cult activity. Better I think to judge a tree by the fruit it bears.

Second item: I've read about the following and agree that such pressure can harm people. I did not see this at my weekend training. What I saw was people challenged to work on issues that they themselves chose to work on. I also saw an individual invited to work on an issue he might not have known he had, and it was very similar to inviting someone to break free of a dangerous cult. He accepted the invitation.

"Of the categories that caused casualties, "rejection" was the most damaging. "Failure to achieve unrealistic goals" was the second most dangerous category. Each of these subjects reported being pressed for a breakthrough without being able to deliver. "Leader attack"-"group attack" tied for third. The fact that participants were restrained from leaving, that they had "no place to hide," was thought to be a crucial element. "Group pressure to experience and express feelings" also caused casualties. When subjects couldn't comply, they felt a "sense of hollowness" which led to a "deficient or empty self-image" (1972, p. 243).
"

Sorry. Nothing I've read about brainwashing and damage to individuals applied to my experience.

My only objection concerned an individual to chose to work on his issue by emotionally revisiting a traumatic event in his life, not just once, but apparently two or three different times. My readings indicates this causes harm. I spoke up and I think I did some good, long-term, for all present.

I think you provide an important service, at least potentially.

sol37:

Education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination are different forms of persuasion than coercive persuasion or thought reofrm, which is what MKP and other mass marathon training has been compared to.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the gradations of persuasion on the chart established by psychologist Margaret Singer.

The MKP notes, which have been exposed through this message board, put MKP and its leaders repeatedly in the category of thought reform, in my opinion.

Your subjective experience is not the objective proof of what MKP does, but rather the leader's notes, which the organization has not refuted.

You say that within MKP programs "people [are] challenged to work on issues" in their personal lives. And you admit that you personally witnessed someone doing so "by emotionally revisiting a traumatic event in his life" during an MKP program.

These are very telling admissions, which further demonstrate what MKP is really promoting and providing is a type of group therapy, but without the necessary certification and educational requirements for its leaders. And without the accompanying accountability provided as expected from psychologists, psychiatrists and other licensed professional counselors and therapists.

This is why mass marathon training like MKP is frequently the cause of serious problems as the research points out and is therefore potentially unsafe.

Re/ cults in our midst: so much doesn't apply. What does apply is so general that you would need a professional to determine if MKP is a cult.

Betcha a good lawyer would move quickly if he even thought he had a case against MKP. And that would be good. Not in the sense that it might destroy MKP but that it would cause a course correction. I'm all for that if one is needed.

I have not said that MKP is a "cult" and the persuasion chart doesn't determine if a group is a "cult."

The purpose of the Singer chart is to distinguish different types of persuasion and demonstrate those differences plainly.

Please understand that your personal "experience" is not the determining factor, but rather the MKP notes, which place much of what the organization does in its programs within the parameters of "thought reform" or coercive persuasion.

There have also been serious complaints posted here about MKP and its programs.

Whether or not someone has chosen to sue the organization is another matter based upon personal choice and again not a determining factor for the purpose of this discussion.

I haven't found what I would consider a serious complaint, though maybe I missed something.

Can you give me an example of a serious complaint?