Quote
TurningPointReject
Is Your Apostle a Narcissist?

The overall definition of someone with a narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by a combination of severe limitations in understanding other people and their feelings, as well as an excessive pursuit of what are called narcissistic supplies, such as admiration, attention, status, understanding, support, money, power, control, or perfection in some form. While all of us need these supplies in adequate amounts to feel a sense of well being, the narcissist pursues them with an unrelenting desperation and a keen ability to manipulate others...Click on the link to read more. [power2serve.net]

A great example of the narcissist with histrionic emphasis is Tammy Faye Bakker. She epitomized histrionics until her death and the adulation she received from thousands sums up the narcissism. Mike and Cyndi just look better on the outside, but the externalization of the dysfunction is the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 12:03PM by tell the truth.

For those who are new I would like to bring to the table leadership and accountability again. I am a firm believer in accountability. It is biblical and even from a secular view important. There are two types of churches - congregationally accountable churches and staff led churches. TPC is clearly a staff ran church. It is also clear who is in charge. There is one more very key influence on TPC that is toxic - UNDER COVER. The book by John Bevere is doctrine at TPC, lived out by leadership and pushed on anyone who is involved. It is the "pastors choice" almost monthly in the bulletin. The covering principle is dangerous because it places man in the way of a personal relationship with Christ. John's declaration is that God "told him" that the bible does not contain everything that a disciple needs and the pastor is to complete this (see page 147 of this book). That is heresy! Let's now look at the leadership structure:

Who is the lead pastor? MIKE
Who is the head elder? MIKE
Who does the staff report to? MIKE
Who runs the elders meetings and has final say? MIKE
Who do the elders have as their personal discipler? MIKE
Who is the apostle? MIKE

Elders should be part of the congregation, simply meaning that the elders participate and are involved with the church. If you attend TPC for any length of time you can see and feel the detachment of the elders from the congregation. Some I have spoken to saw it from day one. You will find that most churches have leadership coming from three areas - a board of directors, an elder board and the staff. There must be a voice of the people. We see at TPC a dictatorship for lack of a better word. The voice of the people is muted under the doctrine of "the covering" and leadership is left leading with a deaf ear the the body. It is clear in the bible that the body is made up of many parts (1 Cor 12) and that one part cannot say to the other "I don't need you!" TPC lives and operates like a head with nothing from the neck down. Therefore they have no legs so they are stagnant and not progressing forward, they have no hands to do God's work, no neck to allow the head to see other perspectives...I could go on and on with analogies.

Until the leadership allows the body to function as a unified group working toward the same goal they will have problems continue to manifest themselves in various ways.

VERY well said, FormerAttender.

My spouse and I both had to read Under Cover and I am guilty of passing it on to someone else too. Looking back, we all see how damaging that book can be.

As for leadership, I've been saying for some time that TPC is a hierarchy.
Mike>Elders>Inner Circle>Deacons>Leadership>SOMA students (or PNWBC whatever)>Staff>Servants>nobodies. Where do you rank in importance? If you speak, are you really heard? Is this the way a church should be??

Yes, former Attender. I would also like to point out, that not only is Mike in control of everything, and the elders are seperate from the body, but ALL of the elders and/or their spouses (with one exception) are on staff, creating a huge conflict of interest. There are also deacons on staff.

While I don't want to harp on the financial issues at TP, I would like to bring up the question of salaries again. I don't care wht the actual numbers are, how much Mike or Cyndi makes. But, I would like you to consider how the finances are distributed. I'm not sure what changes have been made in the last six months, but prior to that, I can say that salaries were close to 50% of TP's total budget. Of that, I think that Mike and Cyndi received close to half of it, leaving the other half (or about 25% of the total budget) to be distributed among 11 other employees. The remaining 50% of the budget was then used to pay for all other expenses, operating and funding the ministries. (I may have to figure out how to add graphics to this forum, and add a pie chart for you visual people. :) )

***Please, please correct me if I'm wrong in this. ***

I wonder if that is how God had intended it when He said bring your offerings to the storehouse.....Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.

Belongs2Him, I would say that your hierarchy is right on, but would add that if you are a soma student, your chances of becoming a leader/deacon/ect increase substantially.

I just finished listening to part 2 of the current TPc series.

I am flabbergasted that the apostle would state that TPc is experiencing "New Testament" persecution.


Who at TPc has been imprisoned for their faith?
Who at TPc has had their limbs ripped from their bodies for their faith?
Who at TPc has had there eyes gouged out for their faith?
Who at TPc has been burned at the stake for their faith?
Who at TPc has been killed with the gladiator's sword for their faith?
Who at TPc has been fed to the hungry lions for their faith?
Who at TPc has watched while their family members were brutally raped and maimed for their faith?



The leaders are derelict to allow their pastor to call what they are experiencing "persecution".
There are Christians all around the world today who are tortured and murdered simply because they claim to follow Jesus Christ.
MV gets up and trivializes their suffering, pain and loss by saying, "TPc is experiencing New Testament persecution".



TPc is experiencing a crisis. But it is not a crisis of persecution. It is a crisis of leadership.



And lets not forget to mention that there is a very real difference between "persecution" and "discipline".
One occurs as a result of genuine faith in the midst of evil;
the other occurs as a corrective action or measure intended to bring one back to truth.
TPc is not being persecuted for their faith.
No one on this forum has attacked their faith.
They have questioned their teachings and their false doctrines but not their faith.

It is difficult to believe that TPc is being persecuted.
But if TPc is experiencing God's "discipline" then one must ask why?
How has TPc gotten so far off course that God would need to bring His discipline to bear?


For a real look at modern day persecution of Christians please explore the following link: [www.persecution.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2009 06:00AM by TurningPointReject.

Hello everyone. This is my first post and could possibly be my last post. I always told myself that posting on here would probably piss all my friends or "family" at TPC off but I have come to realize who my true friends and family are, and they are not at TPC. Family would not treat someone the way I have been treated. I am frankly tired of being treated like a 2nd class citizen in a place I call "home". I have defended this church for the last 3 years and I have grown sick and tired of defending a group of self centered, egotistical people who could really give a damn about me. Call it self pity if you want to but I am tired of being heartbroken day after day, week after week. This has been bottled inside of me for about 2 years now. I know I am gonna be exposed for writing this but I dont care anymore. Most of the people that read this forum are TPC attendees or "Turning Pointers"..psh. They dont even know what to call themselves because of their "independency". It's a little arrogant if you ask me. But hey what do I know, I am just a pee on who doesnt know his head from his ass..correct. I thought so. The reason this site has 70,000 views now is because the "Turning Pointers" are paranoid and scared about what is happening around them. They dont want to believe the "lies" that are posted on here. Frankly I used to be one of those who read this forum and started saying to myself "what a bunch of cold hearted people, how can these people call themselves "christians" by writing on this forum. It disgusts me how they can just accuse these wonderful and caring leaders so much." Not anymore!! I have for the last 4 months been reading this forum and pretty much agreeing with about 98% of you. Sometimes even a 100%.

I dont care if my "family" at TPC talks to me ever again. Hell they dont talk to me or call me anyways to see how I am doing. I have barely been at TPC in the last couple months and no one seems to care or even notice. Sorry but would a "family" do that to another family member. I didnt think so. I honestly do not miss attending or "serving" there at all. The only thing that honestly keeps me going to TPC is 180 youth. I absolutely love ministering to young people. It is my hearts passion. I love to help broken hearted kids and see them come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. It drives me everyday. Worshipping the Lord with them is an amazing experience.

Anyways back to my experience so far with this church. This will expose me right away. I was a Soma student for 2 plus years and I recently dropped because of financial hardship. I lost my job this year in January and couldnt find a good job until May. So I lost my car in the process and all my bills went into collections. But it was like no one cared at all. I got prayer week after week after week and I would say maybe 2 people would approach me and ask me "hey how's the job search?" I would say "terrible". I am not one to sugar code anything. If I am doing terrible than I am going to say it. When I need prayer believe me I am going to ask for it. My roomates at the time were the only ones that were concerned about me because they knew what I was going through. Most of them went to TPC. A couple of them left the church and now post on this site. They told me the reasons they left and that opened my eyes a little bit more because now it was literally hitting "home". Dropping Soma was no easy thing for me but the more and more I thought about it, the easier it became. The way they changed everything in Soma, from the new building to the whole "Principles of Apostolic Ministry class" to combining the classes together. When I first started Soma I was intrigued by the 2nd and 3rd year students, they had been through what I was going through. The toughness of Soma and the discipline it taught. I was like "WOW, these guys have been through the rigger". I honestly could not wait to be a 3rd year student and be a leader in Soma. I could not wait to lead the other classes and be an example to them. But what happened was not what I was expecting. I was still looked at as a 2nd class citizen, I felt like no one even knew I existed. It hurt bad. I wanted to do something about it but I was slowly but surely telling myself "Why bother?"These guys are not your ministry. The broken young people outside of this "school" are your calling. Soma is not my identity and certaintly TPC is not my identity, JESUS IS!!!!

I had already been through this garbage at another church 6 years ago and now I am seeing and feeling the exact same thing. I can not trust anyone anymore. But I am not here to just bash my church, because I still attend there. I am just pointing out right now that I am hurt and am tired of all the BS. I want to see a church that magnifies the Shekinah glory of God's splendor, not a business looking for the next profit or property. I understand that church has to be run like a business but does it have to look like a freaking business. For crying out loud it's all about business now. Business intensives whoop de do. What about the homeless? The broken? The disinfranchised? The people that need a place to call home? What happened to that? Sorry but this is not a church that I want to be part of for much longer. Call me a backstabber if you will. Call me a liar or a traitor. Call me a man looking for pity from everyone. Trust me I have heard the talk around the church. I overheard a conversation the other day in the offices about the "traitors" and liar's on this site and how "sad it is". That went straight to the heart for me, because they cram the whole "do not gossip" thing down everyone's throats and then they do that crap...I was ready to tell them off but I kept my cool. You can call me what you will, but I am an overcomer in God's eyes, a son of the Most High King. A man who never will never give up. Quitting Soma is not giving up, it's moving forward.

I was told to "finish strong" and I am, just not in Soma. Paul told us to finish the race and I am. It's called the race of life here on earth, the race to my savior Jesus Christ. The race to save this lost and broken generation. The Gen X'rs, Y'rs and so on.
To all the TPC people that actually care if I live or die..I love you!! To all the TPC people who only care about themselves and no one else...well....I love you!! That is my calling is to love. It's actually for all of us.

TPC leadership...you have taught me alot. And I am grateful for it. But what is going on lately, I am not grateful for. I still love you all even if you have forgotten about me already. That is my story and I am sticking to it. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

I agree with Brokenhearted - the actual salary is not the issue it is how it affects ministry. The last budget meeting I went to where they showed what they had agreed upon for the next year also showed what was spent that year. Across the board ministries were not funded, in some cases not even getting 10% of what was allocated to them the previous year. One that struck out in my head was benevolence. There was less than $1200 spent for the entire year in this ministry. That's less than $100 a month! For a church that had tithes of over one million dollars that is deplorable. Two years ago it wasn't any better, benevolence was funded at barely 10% the committed amount but music was over budget by $27,000 (nearly triple its budget). This was the year of the CD. I have to say looking back that ego drove the production of that CD. TPC leadership wanted to say "look at us! We have a CD just like Hillsong!" Very irresponsible to me and if the congregation had a say in the money would they have voted to cut all ministries to fund such a project?? I don't think so, do you?

Here is something to think about. We all committed to the Stewardship Campaign and we were reminded to do whatever we had to do to fulfill our committed dollar amount. It seems that if a church agrees to a specific amount to a ministry, especially benevolence, they should stick to it.

Yes, former Attender, I too was struck by how little money many of the ministries actually received, and how much some of the others spent (and how it was justified)...And upon reflection, how the high salaries meant that some ministries had to be cut all together. Seems like the leaders got rich, while the poor (benevolent) got nothing..........

False humility is deprecating one's own sanctity, gifts, talents, and accomplishments for the sake of receiving praise or adulation from others. The picture next to the definition, well lets just say his initials were Mike Villamor, no, well it should have been because he certainly personifies it; and he does so at everyone elses expense.

A user by any other name is still a user, and Mike uses people in the absolute worst ways. But mostly he uses them for the $$ that he can talk them out of. We gave up vacations and who went to Disneyland?

Saddened