TESTY ASKS:

My sister until recently you have said nothing for what almost a year (09-25-06). Now you have plenty to say. Where have you been?

You said:
I still think the Pope has more influence on WORLD economic events than is generally believed, after all his church IS ALSO A STATE that sends and receives ambassadors, AND the Papacy takes great credit to itself for creating conditions allowing the Iron Curtain to fall and economic communism in Eastern Europe to implode.

My comment:
The Iron Curtain falling would be a "good" thing. If Catholics helped then that would be a good thing also. However, I am more skeptical than you about the USA's motives and involvement in WORLD economic events. I will offer you this (If you click "watch 256k stream" you can watch it like tv) [www.democracynow.org]

The YLT is Young's Literal Translation. The YLT is what Dr. Wall suggested to use. Dr. Waite uses the KJV. Both doctors are graduates from Dallas Theological Seminary. Both, the YLT and the KJV are based off the the "Textus Receptus". Both versions and more can be accessed at www.crosswalk.com

We agree on the Diotrophes syndrome and RBT jr. However, where I am "at" is that the authority structure of christianity in practice has been "wrong" for thousands of years. That's me, not Chafer, not Dr. Wall, nor Waite. Christianity has been twisted and used, as have other religious texts (ie Torah, Koran) and non-religious texts such as Buddhist text, for the manipulation of the masses. Power and control of the masses. I am not sure if you are aware or not of the current media manipulations. Thier most famous move is to present "positive" or "negative" information (as profits dictate) on what corporations (the rich) can benefit from, while censoring the "whole truth". The current media we see today is a dramatic example of how intense the desire is of the rich of whom must manipulate the masses. Before electronic communication and massive paper communication, the "media" manipulation of yesteryear must have been religious texts and catchy songs or psalms. So forgive me for where I am at in my study and skeptical perception of the Apostle Paul. Too me, Pauline christianity is just "too convienient" for the rich people of Imperial Rome to have benefitted from. Perhaps after further study I can find reconciliation. As Chafer said when good scholars disagree sometimes simply not enough has been revealed.

I know this though, it is corrupt man's assumption of authority EQUAL to that of God's authority, which is causing the evil destructive cults within Christianity today. Satan must know this to try to "be like the most high". Satan must assume God's authority. To me, they only authority which can be blindly followed without corruption is that of God's perfect authority, not corrupt man.

Also, I disagree with you on the "original manuscripts" subject. I think they would be most helpful.

Truthtesty[/quote]


Where have I been for a year? I have been very busy at home and have had to limit time online due to a neurological condition which makes extended time on the computer interfere with my sleep patterns and worse. So I was scarce. I have been overdoing it again lately and will have to cut back. But my interest has never flagged.

About world economic affairs, it is a good thing to have communism weakened in Eastern Europe as it frees people from a terrible oppression. But the ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS NOT NECESSARILY MY FRIEND.

I think you are mistaken about Young's "Literal" Translation being "based" on the Textus Receptus.

As for the media these days, they have been corrupted by pride and ignorance for a long time now. They are a force mainly for evil which is sad because they could do so much good if they would only report impartially instead of shaping their stories against those with whom they not only disagree, but are totally ignorant of.

I don't hold against you where you are Testy. That is your affair. I also thank you for not holding against me where I am. The same Jesus whose words you revere commanded Paul to report and preach what he did preach and which he recorded in his epistles. So to write him off as a conflict with Jesus is an absurd notion as far as I can see.

The original manuscripts COULD NOT HAVE LASTED all this time. Faithful copies are just as good. Having the "originals" did not stop heresy while they were still in existence, as the apostles said heresy was already at work in their lifetime. SINCE GOD DID PROMISE TO PRESERVE HIS WORDS TO ALL GENERATIONS, and SINCE JESUS SAID HE WOULD SEND HIS SPIRIT TO CAUSE the writers of the New Testament to remember what He told them and LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH, I take Him at His Word that He did just that.

Jesus approved the COPIES he had at his disposal as SCRIPTURE which means that the "Old Testament" He had in his hands was just as inspired as any possible "originals" and if someone chooses not to believe that, then they are rejecting the Words of Jesus.

He did say the Scripture cannot be broken.

Peter called Paul's epistles SCRIPTURE meaning they were also inspired of God and to be held as such. That is a fact.

Cheers,
Sister

SPIRITUALIBERTY SAID:
quote="SpiritualLiberty"]

Quote
sistersoap
As I was reading in Romans this morning I came across

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I know this verse is used by some to claim partial forgiveness. I know there is an answer, but right now I ca n't come up with it Can you help?

Sistersoap

Good question, Sistersoap. In Romans 3, Paul is explaining law and grace. He tells us that the purpose of the law was to expose the sinfulness of mankind, so that “all the world may become guilty before God.”

[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:19 [/b:b61fe688d3]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are [b:b61fe688d3]under the law[/b:b61fe688d3]: that every mouth may be stopped, and [b:b61fe688d3]all the world may become guilty before God[/b:b61fe688d3].

The same principles are also laid out for us in Galatians 3:22-25.

[b:b61fe688d3]Gal 3:22 [/b:b61fe688d3]But the scripture hath [b:b61fe688d3]concluded all under sin[/b:b61fe688d3], that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[b:b61fe688d3]Gal 3:23 [/b:b61fe688d3]But [b:b61fe688d3][u:b61fe688d3]before faith came[/u:b61fe688d3], we were [u:b61fe688d3]kept under the law[/u:b61fe688d3][/b:b61fe688d3], shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[b:b61fe688d3]Gal 3:24 [/b:b61fe688d3]Wherefore the [b:b61fe688d3]law was our [u:b61fe688d3]schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ[/u:b61fe688d3][/b:b61fe688d3], that we might be justified by faith.
[b:b61fe688d3]Gal 3:25 [/b:b61fe688d3]But after that faith is come, we are [b:b61fe688d3]no longer under a schoolmaster[/b:b61fe688d3].

The law, as we know, was never intended to provide salvation; it was designed to expose our need for God’s grace and lead us to Christ. Therefore, Paul continues:

[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:20 [/b:b61fe688d3]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for [b:b61fe688d3]by the law is the [u:b61fe688d3]knowledge of sin[/u:b61fe688d3][/b:b61fe688d3].

Now that the law has fulfilled its purpose as our “schoolmaster,” to reveal our sin and bring us to Christ, the righteousness of God [u:b61fe688d3]without the Law[/u:b61fe688d3] is manifested, and we are justified by faith in Christ:

[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:21 [/b:b61fe688d3][b:b61fe688d3]But [u:b61fe688d3]now[/u:b61fe688d3] the righteousness of God [u:b61fe688d3]without the law[/u:b61fe688d3] is manifested[/b:b61fe688d3], being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:22 [/b:b61fe688d3]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:23 [/b:b61fe688d3]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:24 [/b:b61fe688d3]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Christ has now come to fulfill the Law, and the righteousness of God without the Law is now manifested. But what about those who lived previously under the Law? What about all those sins committed before the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross?

[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:25 [/b:b61fe688d3]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness [b:b61fe688d3]for the remission of [u:b61fe688d3]sins that are past[/u:b61fe688d3], through the [u:b61fe688d3]forbearance of God[/u:b61fe688d3][/b:b61fe688d3];

The “sins that are past” are the sins previously committed under the O.T. Law—the transgressions that were under the first testament. And the “forbearance of God” covered these sins in view of the future work of Christ at the Cross:

[b:b61fe688d3]Heb 9:15 [/b:b61fe688d3]And for this cause he is the mediator of the [u:b61fe688d3][b:b61fe688d3]new testament[/b:b61fe688d3][/u:b61fe688d3], that by means of death, [b:b61fe688d3]for the redemption of [u:b61fe688d3]the transgressions that were under the first testament[/u:b61fe688d3][/b:b61fe688d3], they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Paul’s main point in Romans 3 is that the law has been fulfilled at the Cross, and we are justified by faith rather than the Law. He goes on in verses 26-28:

[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:26 [/b:b61fe688d3]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:27 [/b:b61fe688d3]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[b:b61fe688d3]Rom 3:28 [/b:b61fe688d3][b:b61fe688d3]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith [u:b61fe688d3]without the deeds of the law[/u:b61fe688d3][/b:b61fe688d3].

The sins that are past are the sins previously committed under the Law. The remission of these sins was made possible by the forbearance of God until the Cross of Christ. Paul is explaining “the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament.” There is not the slightest indication in this passage that Paul is referring to a believer’s pre-salvation sins.

As always, we find our answers by reading through the general context of the passage (rather than “atomizing” the scripture), and searching other relevant passages (rather than playing the Greek Game just to make the passage say what we want).

I hope this helps, and I’ve been enjoying our discussions on these subjects. Also, that was an interesting point on Thieme’s condition. How ironic that the man who hyper-emphasized “rebound” for decades (and made so many others live in fear of what would happen if they didn’t “rebound”) will no longer able to “rebound” for the final years of his life.

Forgiven in Christ,
Liberty[/quote]

MY REPLY:
Thanks for your answer. I appreciate your dependence upon the Scriptures themselves to answer questions. I am going to have to chew over this one and get back to the issue. It is important I see it right. I have almost finished going through this whole RBT thread so I can begin to answer and comment on things that caught my eye.....

Cheers,
Sister

voltaic,

Welcome to the forum. You may get all sorts of replies to your assertions ranging from mild to wild. As has been suggested, you should definitely be more specific rather than general so specifics may be addressed.

A lot of the posters on this thread are people that believe and have demonstrated how they have been adversely affected by Thieme's teaching ministry.

Some things here and elsewhere on-line represent Thieme's position fairly and others don't. That is the nature of discussions like these and is driven by people's memories among other things. With that said, I think there is enough publicly available information that demonstrates where several of the doctrines taught by Thieme deviate drastically from the historic Christian faith and how those false teachings have had very adverse and harmful logical conclusions or applications in the lives of Thiemites and others influenced by Thieme. As far as I know, most of the information that I'm aware of was made known to Thieme before it was made public as it should have been. The church as a whole has an obligation to all people to point out error and help people, especially fellow Christians, steer clear of bad teaching and false teachers.

Not everyone on this forum is a professing Christian so, expect them to not share your viewpoint on how things should be handled.

Voltaic, what is your name and where do you go to church?

All, here is some additional information about Thieme and his ministry:
[en.wikipedia.org] ( You may want to contribute your own information to the entry )

The latest update on Thieme's dimentia here:
[www.berachah.org]

Cheers,
Chris
[thiemite.blogspot.com] - a compilation of Thieme quotes and other information about a most unusual theological system.

Quote
thiemite
Welcome to the forum. You may get all sorts of replies to your assertions ranging from mild to wild. As has been suggested, you should definitely be more specific rather than general so specifics may be addressed.

Thanks. I believe that pointing out what I think are errors when the person hasn't asked and in front of others is sinful, so I won't be doing it even if it seems like the right thing to do.

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thiemite
A lot of the posters on this thread are people that believe and have demonstrated how they have been adversely affected by Thieme's teaching ministry.

Again, I have no problem with people disagreeing with any pastor's teachings (Thieme or otherwise) and pointing out those differences and why they hold them. There are side discussionw in this thread which I think are doing that in a legitimate and beneficial way. I don't even have a problem with someone going further than Wall or others have done in comparing Thieme's teachings to orthodoxy, etc.

What I was hoping is simply that everyone who is participating would simply examine their own souls and make sure that their attitudes were loving, patient, and brotherly. If Thieme is a Christian, then he is a fellow heir and brother in Christ, and the Bible is very clear on how brother treats brother, even when one is in error.

As an extreme example: pointing out a brother's error to help him and others is bona fide; pointing it out because of hatred or some kind of vengeance is not. Even though the two actions are the same, the motivations of the heart are what God sees. And some of the posts here appeared to me, as someone who came in from the outside, to be quite full of more of the latter motivation than the former.

Quote
thiemite
Voltaic, what is your name and where do you go to church?

I live in Northern California, in the Sacramento area.

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thiemite
All, here is some additional information about Thieme and his ministry:
[en.wikipedia.org] ( You may want to contribute your own information to the entry )

That's where I found out about this discussion thread, actually.

To understand what went wrong with the ministry of Thieme, it is necessary to look beyond theology.

Indeed, on the whole, the theology of Thieme is is unremarkable, being in essence the theology of traditional Protestantism, with the attendant legacy of heresy which Protestantism inherited from Papistry. Those who consider the theology of Thieme to be aberrant need to become aware of the aberrations of other Protestant groups which are considered mainstream. For example, there are the Presbyterians (exemplified by R. C. Sproul) who embrace the concept of "covenant theology", in which it is deemed that covenantal relationship with the Eternal may be inherited from one's parents.

While the errors of Thieme are many, the most egregious of them have to do with his teaching regarding service to Caesar -- and specifically, military service -- as a Christian virtue. There can hardly be a greater blasphemy than that of Thieme's "military communion".

Again, I recommend the comprehensive article on Thieme in the "Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" section of the web site:
[www.gospelbroadcasting.org] .

Dear Sister:

I don't know if you have read Chafer's 8 volumes of Systematic Theology or not. If you haven't, I think you would really enjoy reading them. I also think you would be shocked at times, at the differences between Thieme and Chafer.


Truthtesty

Hello everyone,

I have been taking more interest in reading the posts, rather than posting myself, but I do feel that something should be noted about this person "expositor", who has made two posts above. I have read his exposition on R.B. Thieme, Jr. ,and rather than get into a debate or point fingers, I will simply copy parts of it and let what is said speak for itself.

Pg. 29

c. The Jew as a Curse

While he was quick to assert that the Jew has been a blessing
to America, Thieme never addressed the inestimable and
irreparable harm which has come to America at the hand of the
unregenerate Jew.

The thinking of Americans has been manipulated and
their moral standards have been degraded by the propaganda
machines of Hollywood, television, and the news media—
institutions which almost entirely are Jewish. The usury-based
banking system of the Jew—a system which expressly is forbidden
by the Scripture—ensures that, on a national level,
Americans incur indebtedness which never can be repaid. Jewish
judges on a daily basis rule against the display of Christian
symbols and forbid traditional American practices which are
based upon the Christian Faith. The Jew in America has promoted
the pseudo-science of psychology until it today pervades
virtually every realm of life, and even is being promoted by
the Christian Pulpit, including the pulpit of Thieme. The Jew
greatly has influenced military policy and procedure, introducing
the strategy of preemptive war, the practice of torture, and
the policy of contaminating the soil and the aquifers of enemy
lands with radioactive dust142 so as to render them uninhabitable
until the end of time. Jews residing in American, many
of whom enjoy citizenship not only in the United States, but
also in the contemporary Jewish state, have an influence in the
realms of politics, law, the news media, entertainment, education,
and medicine which is grossly disproportionate to their
number. Moreover, not a few Christian pulpits are occupied by
cryptic Jews.

and.... also on page 29

e. The Penalty for Befriending the Jew

Thieme appears not to have understood the hatred of the Lord
for the unregenerate Jew, or the curse which the Christian
brings upon himself by helping or even by acting friendly to
the unregenerate Jew.

pg. 32

9. Token Integration

The congregation of Thieme was white, virtually to a man, the
sole exception being a mulatto. The mulatto, a male who appeared
to be in his twenty’s and was in regular attendance,
was the proverbial ‘elephant in the room’ concerning whose
presence few, if any, members of the congregation dared remark,
because of the intimidation of ‘political correctness’.154
While not actively promoting integration or interracial marriage,
Thieme silently tolerated not only the presence of the
mulatto, but also the fact that the mulatto was dating a white
woman within the congregation. Never addressing the matter
from the pulpit, Thieme thus gave tactic approval to interracial relationship within the local assembly

footnote on pg. 32

Treacherous men serving the Establishment in
the guise of evangelist—men such as Billy Graham—aided the effort by insisting that their meetings and ‘crusades’ be open to all races.

source of above information:

[www.gospelbroadcasting.org]

In Christ,
Zams

Truthtesty wrote:

Quote

You seem detached. I would bet that most people would call for the heads of a false teacher if they were physically harming someone in thier family and teaching the bible at the same time. Would you?

Voltaic quote

Quote

Yes, because of the physical harming; not because of the teaching.

Truthtesty:
Would you mind showing me the verse that would call for the heads of a false teacher if they were physically harming someone in thier family and teaching the bible at the same time?




Truthtesty

expositor, what you have asserted about Sproul, do you have any proof of that? I've never heard of such a thing and that definitely does not represent covenant theology. For anyone interested in learning about what Covenant Theology actually is, there is a lot of information available here ( [www.monergism.com] ) that ranges from quick easy stuff to more detailed and in-depth stuff.

Also, expositor, where would you recommend someone go to church? Any particular denominations?

voltaic, you still have not answered my question in regards to where you go to church. That would at least give me an understanding of where you are coming from doctrinally. I am a Christian by God's grace and Reformed & Presbyterian by conviction. It is helpful to know where people are coming from so that when we use similar terms we can understand the different nuances that should be applied. Most of the posters here have, in previous posts, said what there background is (professing Christian or not).

zams, yes, expositor would seem to differ doctrinally from Thieme but appears to have his own set of issues. Thanks for posting the information from his article. With that said, I've read his article and the information regarding Thieme is pretty accurate. Some of the other information, as the quotes you posted, seems very bad and conspiracy driven, much like Thieme but in other directions.

Cheers,
Chris
[thiemite.blogspot.com] - a compilation of Thieme quotes and other information about a most unusual theological system.

I stand by my assertions.

With respect to Sproul: Within the past few months, Sproul on his radio broadcast said that he once was of the opinion that he had become "saved" about the age of twelve, but that subsequently he learned that he had been saved "all his life".

The rallying cry of Reform Theology is "God is sovereign!" While the Lord God indeed is sovereign, the ramifications of that sovereignty are not as Reform Theologians imagine. As a consequence to its unreasoned devotion to the concept of divine sovereignty, Reform Theology has embraced a non-Biblical concept of predestination, which, logically, proceeds from a mistaken view of the concept of omniscience.

Reform Theology is not alone in this error; Protestants in general misunderstand divine omniscience, but few other than the Reform Theology crowd have carried their erroneous beliefs to the logical conclusion. Thus, it generally is only among the adherents of Reform Theology that one hears an open declaration of the belief that man has no volition -- that man is but an actor on the stage of life, living out a script which God has written in infinite detail, and totally incapable of independent action or thought. Of course, such a concept of omniscience (and thus, of predestination) makes a mockery of the Scripture. In particular, it makes a mockery of every command and exhortation found in the Scripture.