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Truthtesty
Show me where the [u:84b07fe19d]outright false statements[/u:84b07fe19d] and [u:84b07fe19d]personal attacks [/u:84b07fe19d]are, [b:84b07fe19d]specifically[/b:84b07fe19d]. Because if you can't, then your opinion is not fact based. Then it is you who is making false accusations.

I can provide those links, I simply choose not to to because it's not my business to publicly point out someone else's errors. I also said that these were my opinions upon reading the various posts, so if I were to point someone else's error out and I ended up being wrong, that's a double whammy against my own account: one for misreading and two for bashing them about it.

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Truthtesty
Evil festers because it is not confronted and defeated. Plain and simple logic, the same logic used in driving your car.

I believe this is unbiblical. Evil will only be defeated by Christ Himself when he finally casts all sin and death and unbelievers and fallen angels and Satan away forever; even during Jesus Christ's personal thousand year reign (prophesied in Revelation), malcontents rise up against Him. In the strongest terms possible, I challenge you to find scriptures supporting your statement that Christians are called to defeat evil.

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Truthtesty
The answer to your question is yes you should go to the internet and point out the truth. Have the debate. Put all the facts on the table. You might be right or you be wrong, but the truth is out there.

If there is a chance that a person is wrong, then this person is guilty of incredible evil in making trouble against others. I will simply have to disagree with you on this point. I don't believe we are called to debate and all this out there to the world at large, and I've never seen a passage in Scripture that supports this idea. Can you provide one?

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Truthtesty
Not all love is gooshy, pal.

1 Corinthians 13 teaches us what love is. Even if you do every outwardly good thing for others but inside you have no love, you gain nothing. I propose that preventing your buddy from driving drunk is different than getting in a snippy little jab on an internet discussion forum.

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Truthtesty
Voltaic when I tell you something like "I am just putting up a big red warning sign" THEN THAT IS WHAT I AM DOING. I don't have time to play games.

I didn't imply you should leave, you did. You should stay, you will probably learn something.

I would love to learn something. Let's start with the only source of information that truly matters in this life, the Holy Bible. Teach me, and I mean this genuinely and honestly, teach me the verses which call for the very things that are said about Thieme and his followers in this thread. Not your personal beliefs, not your opinions, and not metaphors for real-world criminals; show me scripture. I want to see where "It Is Written". I've quoted dozens of passages showing why I have my point of view.

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Truthtesty
Quit wasting my time. Either have the guts to be specific so that I can at least see what your saying specifically so I can answer specifically or quit making generalized accusations about me.

It has nothing to do with guts. I will not say something that I believe is wrong to say. Perhaps I am the weak brother of 1 Corinthians 8 and Romans 14 and I do not have enough faith; or perhaps I have the log in my eye of Matthew 7 and Luke 6 and I cannot see clearly enough to help others with their own speck; or perhaps I am the newborn babe of Hebrews 5 and 1 Peter 2 and I am only able to take in the most basic spiritual milk because I have only just begun to taste the Lord's goodness.

Do those passages call for others to bash or accuse or debate or challenge or brow-beat the weak or the spiritual newborn?

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Truthtesty
I can answer partially. Sometimes the "theologians" did not go far enough.

Now you vaguely insult even the very people you quote in some of your posts, by putting quote marks around "theologians", as if to question even their own learning. You truly are a great man. I can't even touch that. I think we're probably done here.

To Voltaic:


Did you forget one? It seems the only time you have the "spiritual guts" to answer a straight forward question.

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Truthtesty wrote:
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You seem detached. I would bet that most people would call for the heads of a false teacher if they were physically harming someone in thier family and teaching the bible at the same time. Would you?


Voltaic quote:
"Yes, because of the physical harming; not because of the teaching."



Truthtesty
What if the teaching from the teacher was causing people in the family to "rebound" so much that they would bump into walls or fall down stairs, hurting themselves? What if the teaching from the teacher was causing people in the family to have dysfunctionalizing nervous breakdowns, breaking down the individual's identity? causing them to hear voices? (and on and on you can read what damage people have witnessed on this forum) WOULD YOU CALL FOR THE FALSE TEACHER'S HEAD IN THIS CASE? THIEME IS STILL CAUSING PHYSICAL HARM IS HE NOT?

This clearly relates to reality of what has happened to some Thiemites. Yet you do not answer.

WOULD YOU CALL FOR THE FALSE TEACHER'S HEAD IN THIS CASE? THIEME IS STILL CAUSING PHYSICAL HARM IS HE NOT?



Truthtesty

To Voltaic:


Truthtesty wrote:

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Show me where the outright false statements and personal attacks are, specifically. Because if you can't, then your opinion is not fact based. Then it is you who is making false accusations.

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I can provide those links, I simply choose not to to because it's not my business to publicly point out someone else's errors.

Truthtesty
This is a bit hypocritical don't you think? Are you not pointing out errors on this forum? albeit "generalized" without being too specific? You are still pointing out errors "publicly" (at least from your perspective).


So far I count: hypocrite and complicit in the face of evil.



Truthtesty

Truthtesty wrote:

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I can answer partially. Sometimes the "theologians" did not go far enough.

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Now you vaguely insult even the very people you quote in some of your posts, by putting quote marks around "theologians", as if to question even their own learning. You truly are a great man. I can't even touch that. I think we're probably done here.

THIS IS IN NO WAY INSULTING TO THEOLOGIANS. YOU HAVE DRAWN THAT FALSE CONCLUSION. YOU ARE NOW PUBLICALLY, SPECIFICALLY, AND FALSELY ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING THAT I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING. THE QUOTATIONS ARE THERE FOR THE EMPHASIS OF DRAWING ATTENTION TO THE WORD "THEOLOGIANS", BECAUSE I HAVE REFERENCED VERY MANY THEOLOGIANS ON THIS FORUM. I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR THOSE THEOLOGIANS. POSSIBLY IF YOU ACTUALLY TOOK TIME TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT SPECIFICS, INSTEAD OF JUMPING TO FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND FALSE CONCLUSIONS, IT MIGHT ACTUALLY HELP YOU TO "NOT FALL INTO ERROR". YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE A "CLUE" ABOUT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS THINKING.





Truthtesty

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Truthtesty
Did you forget one? It seems the only time you have the "spiritual guts" to answer a straight forward question.

You're right, I did forget one. It would be easier to follow your points if you kept replies in one post, used the quote boxes, etc. But nevermind that honest mistake, I'll take all the blame and agree that I have no spiritual guts whatsoever.

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Truthtesty

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Truthtesty
What if the teaching from the teacher was causing people in the family to "rebound" so much that they would bump into walls or fall down stairs, hurting themselves? What if the teaching from the teacher was causing people in the family to have dysfunctionalizing nervous breakdowns, breaking down the individual's identity? causing them to hear voices? (and on and on you can read what damage people have witnessed on this forum) WOULD YOU CALL FOR THE FALSE TEACHER'S HEAD IN THIS CASE? THIEME IS STILL CAUSING PHYSICAL HARM IS HE NOT?

This clearly relates to reality of what has happened to some Thiemites. Yet you do not answer.

WOULD YOU CALL FOR THE FALSE TEACHER'S HEAD IN THIS CASE? THIEME IS STILL CAUSING PHYSICAL HARM IS HE NOT?

I don't think someone bumping their head into a wall is enough cause to vilify a pastor.

As for people who end up with legitimate psychological problems and damage, I'd definitely agree that their situations should be studied by accredited, legitimate people and, if it can be shown that a pastor is personally responsible, he should be taken to task yes. But I would not agree that an internet-based smear campaign is the right way to go about it. I don't agree that going behind a person's back or over their head or whatever metaphor you want is ever advocated by the Bible.

I don't believe that every person who takes teachings into wrong conclusions or actions necessarily is the pastor's fault, either. Certainly in many cases it is, but not always. For example, Peter [i:7a2c5085ec]continually[/i:7a2c5085ec] made errors in understanding teaching (see passages in Matthew 16-19 and 26), and even cut off some poor slave's ear, and he was a personal disciple of the living Christ!

Certainly if you have the majority of a congregation who, for instance, hear voices and bump into walls, then there is something genuinely endemic in the teaching. But if you have hundreds or thousands of people in a group and maybe 1% have issues, it's time to honestly examine the cause. Perhaps it is the teacher; or perhaps he's just a convenient scapegoat.

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Truthtesty
This is a bit hypocritical don't you think? Are you not pointing out errors on this forum? albeit "generalized" without being too specific? You are still pointing out errors "publicly" (at least from your perspective).

So far I count: hypocrite and complicit in the face of evil.

No, I don't think it's hypocritical. My purpose was not to rub anyone's noses in their past mistakes. You yourself admitted you had made them and later retracted. All of our sins and mistakes have already been forgiven by God through the blood of Christ, so who am I to remind everyone?

I did, however, post in the hopes that people would [i:7a2c5085ec]self[/i:7a2c5085ec]-examine; and I said as much a couple of times in that first post. If, after such a self-exam, everyone here believes that they are living spiritually and filled with the Spirit and honoring Christ and loving neighbors as they love themselves and sacrificing all that Christ may be lifted up, then great. If you think your last few posts to me honor God, then it's none of my business to criticize you for it.

It would be hypocritical of me to urge every brother to self-examination and then not do it myself. But as to everyone else, who am I to judge another man's servant?

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Truthtesty
THIS IS IN NO WAY INSULTING TO THEOLOGIANS. YOU HAVE DRAWN THAT FALSE CONCLUSION. YOU ARE NOW PUBLICALLY, SPECIFICALLY, AND FALSELY ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING THAT I HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING. THE QUOTATIONS ARE THERE FOR THE EMPHASIS OF DRAWING ATTENTION TO THE WORD "THEOLOGIANS", BECAUSE I HAVE REFERENCED VERY MANY THEOLOGIANS ON THIS FORUM. I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR THOSE THEOLOGIANS. POSSIBLY IF YOU ACTUALLY TOOK TIME TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT SPECIFICS, INSTEAD OF JUMPING TO FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND FALSE CONCLUSIONS, IT MIGHT ACTUALLY HELP YOU TO "NOT FALL INTO ERROR". YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE A "CLUE" ABOUT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS THINKING.

OK, my mistake.

Truthtesty, Just as I finished posting above I had an idea. Here's what I'll do if you really, earnestly desire it. When I have time, perhaps tomorrow or this weekend, I'll go through the [i:723087ab73]entire[/i:723087ab73] thread of 500+ posts and find any of your posts which appear, to me, to be personal attacks which are unloving and un-Christian act against a fellow believer and member of the body of Christ. I will send you those links in a private message with an explanation of why they read that way to me, or why they might offend a weaker brother like me. This way, I am not pointing out these things publicly.

I would consider that a private and personal discussion, which as I have said I believe is a legitimate, Biblical way of handling disagreements of faith. Reply to this post publicly if you agree to this.

You have some nerve coming in here rebuking people who have been severely traumatized by SERIOUS FALSE TEACHING for many years, and so delicately refusing to quote the things you say are unchristian of us to say about a fellow believer!

I AM CHEWING NAILS AND GETTING READY TO SPIT!

What about the Scriptures that tell us to REBUKE AND EXPOSE THE ERROR and the ERRANT ONE. Thieme WAS NOT ONE to just walk up to and REBUKE, or have you missed that part in his literature and tapes?

You should at least know what you are talking about before criticizing us FOR STANDING UP IN PUBLIC AND TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT A FALSE TEACHER WHO WASTED many precious years of our Christian lives separating us from God's Word and our right to learn directly from it.

I suggest you start over. If all you ever wanted was to "rebuke" the slanderer then why don't you just do that privately instead of "dropping in" on us to inform us how bad we are for CLAIMING THE RIGHTS OF VICTIMS TO WARN OTHERS?

You are blowing smoke in our faces and accusing us of the wrong instead of the one with greater responsiblity as a SUPPOSED MINISTER OF THE GOSPEL.

If SLANDER was done, why don't you just quote it and do the dirty work like a man instead of sneaking around self righteously using the VILE NIV "Bible" trying to hide behind the Word of God to correct us?

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Thieme with his gifts and advantages created his own version of the Word of God and used it scurrilously to BEAT AND DECEIVE THE SHEEP and render us HELPLESS and subjected to lies about God Himself and His Truth. I say such a one deserves AT LEAST TO BE PUBLICLY EXPOSED as a serious flaw in the Body, and one who would never repent. He seemed well able to defend himself, but curiously never would face those who disagreed with him, so how are we supposed to "entreat" him?

Joe Wall bent over backwards trying to be fair and courteous to Thieme. He also left us with an ADMONITION: That Thieme's false teachings were liable to get worse and worse because of his blind spots and his faulty methodology. AND HE WAS TERRIBLY HORRIBLY CORRECT.

A great damage has been done to the Body of Christ FROM WITHIN by this man's errors, and you want us to dress it up and put fine clothes on it? It is almost like you are lecturing us IF YOU CAN'T SAY SOMETHING NICE, DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL.

Well that might work on a school playground, but not here.

Personally I am skeptical that your "neutrality" re Thieme is as you say it is. Lurking on a cult message board for a long time without mentioning any of Thieme's errors is a little suspicious. I think you agree with Thieme and you wanted an easy way to show us how awful we are for complaining.

Check your baggage at the door.

Go home and do your "homework" and earn the right to come back here and rebuke us for something we have really done. You have to read it all and not just here, either. There are LOTS of sources of information on Thieme both pro and con at all levels of discourse. Then maybe you might have something really useful to say.

Thieme invented COUNTLESS FABLES mentioned in the Scripture to divert us from the truth. How much worse can it be for a preacher to do than to mislead the sheep away from the Shepherd and take His place in their lives????

SPITTING NAILS! PITOOEY!

Sistersoap

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I don't think someone bumping their head into a wall is enough cause to vilify a pastor.

Truthtesty
If you are going to continue to claim (and publicly point out error) that I villified Thieme, then be specific as to the specific case. [b:d8665d3e91]If you can't be specific, then quit accusing me of doing it.[/b:d8665d3e91]




Truthtesty

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sistersoap
You have some nerve coming in here rebuking people who have been severely traumatized by SERIOUS FALSE TEACHING for many years, and so delicately refusing to quote the things you say are unchristian of us to say about a fellow believer!

I do not intend to rebuke anyone who has suffered harm, I only intended to urge everyone to make sure they are acting in accordance with our membership in the body of Christ, and to do so in their own self-examination. There's a huge difference between a general "call to repentance" and pointing fingers at anyone specifically.

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sistersoap
What about the Scriptures that tell us to REBUKE AND EXPOSE THE ERROR and the ERRANT ONE. Thieme WAS NOT ONE to just walk up to and REBUKE, or have you missed that part in his literature and tapes?

I agree that we are taught by Scripture to rebuke brethren in false doctrines and errors and such, but I take this to mean going to them directly. I don't agree that maligning someone where they don't know about it or taking out an ad in the newspaper or some other indirect public discourse is the same as a Christian rebuke. I also would note that in the very Scripture you posted (1 Timothy 4:2-4), Paul reminds Timothy to rebuke and reprove "with all long-suffering", which is patience. If you believe that this is what you are doing here, then fine; you have at least honestly examined yourself.

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sistersoap
If SLANDER was done, why don't you just quote it and do the dirty work like a man instead of sneaking around self righteously using the VILE NIV "Bible" trying to hide behind the Word of God to correct us?

The NIV translation is vile?

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sistersoap
Thieme with his gifts and advantages created his own version of the Word of God and used it scurrilously to BEAT AND DECEIVE THE SHEEP and render us HELPLESS and subjected to lies about God Himself and His Truth. I say such a one deserves AT LEAST TO BE PUBLICLY EXPOSED as a serious flaw in the Body, and one who would never repent. He seemed well able to defend himself, but curiously never would face those who disagreed with him, so how are we supposed to "entreat" him?

We are supposed to follow the commands of scripture, the Mind of Christ, no less and no more. The Bible clearly states, as I have previously quoted in a number of verses, that if a brother will not listen to counsel and entreaty, then we are to separate from him. That's it. I do not see the scripture that calls for anything more than this.

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sistersoap
Personally I am skeptical that your "neutrality" re Thieme is as you say it is. Lurking on a cult message board for a long time without mentioning any of Thieme's errors is a little suspicious. I think you agree with Thieme and you wanted an easy way to show us how awful we are for complaining.

I stated in my opening post that I agree with Thieme on some issues and disagree on others. If this is a lie, then I have sinned for little gain.

I didn't actually lurk on the message board for a long time, although I did try to make a funny by saying "long time lurker, first time poster". I was alluding to a famous line that people use when phoning in to radio shows, but I can see there is little room for humor here. To be honest I've only known about this forum for about a month, and I really only read this discussion thread.

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Truthtesty
If you are going to continue to claim (and publicly point out error) that I villified Thieme, then be specific as to the specific case. [b:ea3ec91147]If you can't be specific, then quit accusing me of doing it.[/b:ea3ec91147]

I have not claimed that [b:ea3ec91147]YOU[/b:ea3ec91147] did anything. Frankly I don't remember who said what in the past as I only read through the whole thread one time and posted based on general impressions.

I admit that [b:ea3ec91147]YOU[/b:ea3ec91147] may not have said anything which I took to be a personal attack against a fellow brother in Christ. I simply don't remember who said what; I only remember the general thoughts expressed in the thread. It may turn out that if I go back I will only see unChristian posts from people who aren't here any more.