Thiemite, we were obviously there at the same time. Feel free to repost what I have written.

Truthtesty, you're right on - "Seek, and ye shall find." When the followers are directly encouraged NOT to question the leader, it's a cult.

"Christian Soldier" was sung to the tune "Men of Harlech" (sp), an old English song. (Rent the film "Zulu" and you can hear it sung during the battle.) Perhaps I am wrong on this point, but I always thought he wrote the lyrics - I'm sure we were told that - because they were printed in the bulletin. I remember the Sunday morning when it first appeared, and he announced that it would be the new "hymn".

Yes, there was a time in the early years when questions were allowed. As the congregation swelled, this was replaced by an iron rule of no moving, no talking, no comments, no looking around. The joy of worship was severely tempered by the abject fear of being "called down by the Colonel" - wherein he would stop his class (I refrain from calling it a sermon) and rip someone a new one who was fidgeting or "looking around". It was clearly a maneuver used to cement his iron rule: harsh, bitter words, always accompanied with a good head shaking. Just what you want from your shepherd.

It was his total authoritarianism that kept people from asking questions. I was there 7-8 times a week for years, and know of no one else who dared attempt to breach the inner sanctum, get past the goon squad, and ask a question. Picture Dorothy and friends first approaching the Wizard and you'll get a clear picture. The man who did attempt it was a man I worked with at the time, at a cleaning service. I was in high school, he was in college, and Thieme had thrown in that the woman in this verse was naked. I cannot recall for the life of me what passage we were in, but I clearly remember standing outside and this man saying, "I can't figure out where he got that she was naked." So, he went in seeking knowledge, and was humiliated. He left the church shortly thereafter, convinced that Thieme had thrown in the nakedness to get the attention of the congregation and "spice up" the night's class. I was there, this happened, and I would attest to it in court.

Now tell me - is that what people should expect from a pastor? Is total reverence/fear what a pastor should instill? I say NO. If you weren't in the inner circle, you wouldn't even think of strolling up to "the Colonel". All the years I was there his published biography mentioned his attendance at Beverly Hills High School (big whoop), and I think he was more interested in movie star status than he was in tending the flock. Let's be clear - he was handsome, dynamic, a truly gifted teacher, brilliant in many aspects but none of them relating to theology.

[b:d50682c3e1]ADDENDUM:[/b:d50682c3e1] After reading many of the previous posts, I would like to add that I speak and write of R.B. Thieme, Jr. like no other man - meaning I hold him in singular contempt for his retardation of God's precious Word and the horrible effect he has had on the lives of thousands. I have become a student of the Bible, "studying to show (myself) approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth." It is my prayer that everyone who was sucked into his regime and never got out will be led to spiritual freedom by the Lord. I am convinced that only He can open eyes, and show His children the truth of His Word.

Every time I read Revelation 22:18, I think of Thieme.

In 1974, no later than 1975, the last "assistant pastor" left Berachah. He was a full bird colonel named McConnell; he officiated at my sister's wedding at Berachah. Thieme didn't/wouldn't do it for reasons I do not recall. McConnell held this position for a couple of years, following the Buddy Dano period. (Sidebar: As I recall, Thieme got Dano a commission in the Air Force Reserve, so he could have a uniform to wear to church.)When McConnell was "dismissed", he sent out a letter to many church families/members revealing some lurid details of behind-the-scenes activities at Berachah, some of which defied imagination. I have not personally seen this letter, so I won't stoop down and write here what was in it. Spicy stuff, I can tell you that.

I have no idea what happened to this man. The letter was decried as outright lies by someone who had been fired. I am sure now that those who received it, and were later led by the Lord from Berachah, came to be convinced that what he wrote was true.

Welcome Juker,

And thank you for your wonderful and refreshing testimony. I truly enjoyed it. I was also at Berachah from 1971 through the mid 1980's. You brought to mind some of the things I had forgotten. I too, came to realize later that many of Thieme's teachings were designed to insulate him from people and from doing what he did not want to do. Amazing how he twisted scripture and got by with it....mostly because we were discouraged to read our Bibles....being too dumb to understand them of course.

What about his definition of "impersonal love"? It's not love at all, but indifference. Actually, I don't believe he had any concept of real love.

"the 196th level of reversionism".......funny!!

Oh, yes.....who can forget "Christian Soldier"....sung every Sunday. When was there ever any worship of God at all there? Worship of the pastor is more like it.

"Thieme stepped to the side of his pulpit, put one hand on his hip, leaned forward, and sneered to the congregation"
I remember this posture well....it happened often. What arrogance!!

I knew for a long time that he was inserting his own opinion into his teaching, but because of my family I kept going....long after I lost all respect for him.....until once when he berated and humiliated me openly during class for wearing a knit cap (it was winter). He was against anyone wearing hats in church because they supposedly would distract others and block their view. This was a very close fitting cap and ivory in color.....not at all a distraction to anyone.....no more so than someone with white hair would be. But a control freak cannot stand to have anyone dare to break his rules. It occured to me later....what if I had been a cancer patient who was undergoing chemotherapy, had lost my hair and was wearing a cap to cover the baldness? What an utter display of hostility and insensitivity!

Thieme had no business being a pastor. A true pastor is a shepherd, and shows love and kindness toward the sheep....not contempt. The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. How many of these qualities were evident in Thieme?

I didn't realize until a long time later how wrong he was on so many things. Now I read and study the Bible myself and make sure that what I am taught agrees with scripture before I accept it. The Holy Spirit teaches and affirms the truth to me.

Regarding Rev 22:18....do not forget verse 19 either!

truthlover

Thank you, dear. Gosh, I never actually knew any of the sheep upon whom Thieme reigned down the thunder. It is an honor to make your acquaintance. It took me many post-Berachah years to feel comfortable being greeted in church; being identified as a visitor; being welcomed and asked to dinner; and feeling the call to say, "Amen!" or "Hallelujah!" when the Spirit so moves me - as opposed to sitting stock still like a good little robot.

I remember another occasion where some odd sound was swelling up from down in the front left area of the pews. Thieme stopped preaching (correction, he stopped talking) and demanded to know what was going on, what that sound was. Turned out to be someone having a seizure. He commanded one of the T&P ladies to stick her fingers in the guy's mouth to make sure he didn't swallow his tongue. (I'll leave you to dwell on how easy it is to lose a finger doing this.)

Dear Friends:

I have been trying to read through all of the messages posted here; I haven't finished yet, but would like to address two items.

1. I have seen both sides of the Berachah exodus - those who leave and are drawn to the true Word of God, and those who leave and never enter a church again. It is my prayer that anyone who departs Berachah, or who has been under the mind-numbing, soul-draining routine of listening to RBTJr's tapes, finds their individual peace through the true love of God. It took me many years to realize that although I could spout various formulas and doctrines and acronyms, although I had claimed to be saved at the age of five, although I called myself a Christian - I had no idea what a real Christian was. To be concise, we should be known by our walk, by our faith, by our love for others, by striving to be like Christ. Those of who spent numerous years in the Bunker for the Doctrinally Insane (with apologies, but that's what my family has come to call BC over the past 20 years) know all about this complete absence of love. The BC ministry seems more about folks mastering the teaching of Thieme, than it does about people seeking to do God's Will and truly understanding His precious Word - which we can do simply by opening our Bibles and letting the Holy Spirit lead us. In the past 23 years my senses have become quite keen to those who want to study, study, study but never seem quite able to put their faith into practice. See James 2:15-17. Get a concordance and see how many times "love thy neighbor" appears in God's Word - then ask why. I well remember my own cocky superiority, my own swaggering arrogance, when I attended Berachah as a young man; my better-than-you, sucking-down-the-doctrine attitude. It wasn't until years later that the scales fell from my eyes, and I got on my knees in tears and asked the Lord to show me. [b:ce8ba69dea][i:ce8ba69dea]And oh, how He has answered that prayer!!![/i:ce8ba69dea][/b:ce8ba69dea]


2. Please don't confuse the ridiculous concept of 'rebound' (confession of sin as a free pass to go sin again) with true confession of sin. I have read some posts that disturb me, saying that once saved you never need to confess your sins. Christ accepted the penalty on the cross for the sins of all men. That debt is paid in full, so that we do not have to bear that punishment. But once saved, we should have a heightened awareness of sin in our lives, and seek as best we can to turn away from sin. Yes, we are all sinners. With regards to PRIVATE confession, see I John 1:5-10. John writes, "If WE confess our sins.." WE, meaning believers. Confession of sin should be an active part of our prayer life. No, you will not be philagaticolzolically zapped into the 267th sub-level of dynaspheric cross-abandonization (Pz=267D/C-A) if you don't confess your sins. It is your privilege as a Christian to have unfettered access to a "throne of grace", and as one beautiful commentator wrote, "... and you should clean off your shoes before you step to that throne." Meaning, willing confession. Confession isn't a drill, it isn't a game, it isn't a chore - it is, I am convinced, a wonderful way to draw closer to God.

I offer this to all of you not to demonstrate what a wonderful Christian I am, but simply as a measure of the importance of prayer. I pray ten to twenty times a day, sometimes a quick prayer for others, sometimes lengthy prayers that go on as long as I am led to keep praying. I always open my prayers with a confession of my sins to the Lord. Not only do I believe this is Scripturally correct, but I know from the Holy Spirit that it is the proper thing to do both in my prayer life, and in my growing walk with the Lord. This "prayer life" is something I never had at Berachah. Never.

I'm not looking to fire up a theological argument here - I merely encourage anyone interested in love, true Christian service, works, and prayer to go to the Bible and study for themselves. If there's one thing I know to be true, it's that the answers are there and that the Holy Spirit joyfully reveals them to us. In English.

Juker, I agree with you regarding prayer & confession.

On another note, I was speaking to one of my elders after Bible study last night and mentioned the "mint juleps and plantation" where "looser believers" would serve the super grace crowd, etc. I thought his jaw was going to drop off. His reply was, if you can get people to stop reading their Bibles, I guess they'll believe just about anything.

Juker and others:

I have several acquaintances who have listened to Thieme's tapes for a good many years. Of course they are great admirers of "the Colonel" and are very interested in all the stories he tells about his personal life. I have heard comments about his childhood, and especially his father and the effect Thieme's choice of career had on the relationship between himself and his father. Can some of you who were or are currently in Thieme's ministry relate what you have heard Thieme say regarding these things? Before I comment further I want to be sure I have received accurate information.

--Thanks

Hello mile2,

Thieme is from a wealthy family. From what I remember, when he decided to become a pastor, his father cut off his family inheritance. Before the father died I believe they reconciled and he became a believer. He had/has a sister whom he did not get along with and hadn't seen or talked to in years. I believe she was a Christian, but may have been charismatic or had some different beliefs. Anyway I understand they were in disagreement about their Christian views. This is just what I can recall.

truthlover

I couldn't say for sure; I believe there was old family money. It strikes me that his grandfather founded an insurance or title company...

Thank you Truthlover and Juker--

Actually, Truthlover, what you say matches exactly with what several other students of Thieme's ministry have told me, i.e. that Thieme grew up in an extremely wealthy family in Beverly Hills with maids and even a butler. His father was a very successful businessman who socialized with movie stars, directors and producers. His grandfather and father founded a huge clothing company in L.A. When Thieme decided to become a pastor, his father was so angry that he was not planning to go into the family business, that he disinherited him.

After reading the recently published biography entitled "Robert B. Thieme, Jr.: His Ancestry: His Life" by C.G. Hunt, I discovered that none of these things were true. Thieme's father was a water purifier salesman who rented a house in Beverly Hills. After Thieme's grandfather died and the financial support from him ended, Thieme's father moved into a triplex. He was a man of modest means and when he died in Redlands, CA he left no will and his estate was so small it did not go through probate. All these facts are thoroughly documented with public records in this biography.

It is very clear that Thieme was not truthful about his background and especially deceptive about his supposed monetary sacrifice when he decided to choose service for the Lord over worldly riches.

In Acts 5 we see that God takes a very dim view of people who lie in that fashion. Ananias sold a plot of land he owned and then gave only a portion of the proceeds to the work of the church. However, he told the believers he had given up all he had received for the sale. Why did he lie? He did so to elevate himself in the eyes of his fellow believers and bring admiration and praise to himself. The scriptures say his wife Sapphira was "privy" to what her husband had done. But when she was questioned she decided not to speak the truth and condemn what her husband had done, but to remain in support of her husband. God's judgement was swift, and both fell dead when confronted with their lies.

What Thieme has done almost exactly parallels this portion of scripture. Why did he lie about giving up a huge inheritance? For the same reason as Ananias. Thieme wanted to elevate himself, to bring admiration and praise to himself. Such behavior alone would disqualify him from teaching the truth of God's Word. A liar cannot know God's truth, because it is "spiritually discerned".

All those who become aware of Thieme's deception (and this example is only one of many) should be careful not to follow in the footsteps of Sapphira. No matter how long a person has been committed to Thieme and his teachings, in order to follow the Lord, he or she should condemn what Thieme did and discontinue their association with that ministry. I know first hand how difficult and heartbreaking that realization can be. But our precious Lord will not fail to bring understanding, comfort and strength.