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sistersoap
As I was reading in Romans this morning I came across

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I know this verse is used by some to claim partial forgiveness. I know there is an answer, but right now I ca n't come up with it Can you help?

Sistersoap

Good question, Sistersoap. In Romans 3, Paul is explaining law and grace. He tells us that the purpose of the law was to expose the sinfulness of mankind, so that “all the world may become guilty before God.”

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:19 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are [b:2e8dcbdb62]under the law[/b:2e8dcbdb62]: that every mouth may be stopped, and [b:2e8dcbdb62]all the world may become guilty before God[/b:2e8dcbdb62].

The same principles are also laid out for us in Galatians 3:22-25.

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Gal 3:22 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]But the scripture hath [b:2e8dcbdb62]concluded all under sin[/b:2e8dcbdb62], that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Gal 3:23 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]But [b:2e8dcbdb62][u:2e8dcbdb62]before faith came[/u:2e8dcbdb62], we were [u:2e8dcbdb62]kept under the law[/u:2e8dcbdb62][/b:2e8dcbdb62], shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Gal 3:24 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Wherefore the [b:2e8dcbdb62]law was our [u:2e8dcbdb62]schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ[/u:2e8dcbdb62][/b:2e8dcbdb62], that we might be justified by faith.
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Gal 3:25 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]But after that faith is come, we are [b:2e8dcbdb62]no longer under a schoolmaster[/b:2e8dcbdb62].

The law, as we know, was never intended to provide salvation; it was designed to expose our need for God’s grace and lead us to Christ. Therefore, Paul continues:

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:20 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for [b:2e8dcbdb62]by the law is the [u:2e8dcbdb62]knowledge of sin[/u:2e8dcbdb62][/b:2e8dcbdb62].

Now that the law has fulfilled its purpose as our “schoolmaster,” to reveal our sin and bring us to Christ, the righteousness of God [u:2e8dcbdb62]without the Law[/u:2e8dcbdb62] is manifested, and we are justified by faith in Christ:

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:21 [/b:2e8dcbdb62][b:2e8dcbdb62]But [u:2e8dcbdb62]now[/u:2e8dcbdb62] the righteousness of God [u:2e8dcbdb62]without the law[/u:2e8dcbdb62] is manifested[/b:2e8dcbdb62], being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:22 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:23 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:24 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Christ has now come to fulfill the Law, and the righteousness of God without the Law is now manifested. But what about those who lived previously under the Law? What about all those sins committed before the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross?

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:25 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness [b:2e8dcbdb62]for the remission of [u:2e8dcbdb62]sins that are past[/u:2e8dcbdb62], through the [u:2e8dcbdb62]forbearance of God[/u:2e8dcbdb62][/b:2e8dcbdb62];

The “sins that are past” are the sins previously committed under the O.T. Law—the transgressions that were under the first testament. And the “forbearance of God” covered these sins in view of the future work of Christ at the Cross:

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Heb 9:15 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]And for this cause he is the mediator of the [u:2e8dcbdb62][b:2e8dcbdb62]new testament[/b:2e8dcbdb62][/u:2e8dcbdb62], that by means of death, [b:2e8dcbdb62]for the redemption of [u:2e8dcbdb62]the transgressions that were under the first testament[/u:2e8dcbdb62][/b:2e8dcbdb62], they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Paul’s main point in Romans 3 is that the law has been fulfilled at the Cross, and we are justified by faith rather than the Law. He goes on in verses 26-28:

[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:26 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:27 [/b:2e8dcbdb62]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[b:2e8dcbdb62]Rom 3:28 [/b:2e8dcbdb62][b:2e8dcbdb62]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith [u:2e8dcbdb62]without the deeds of the law[/u:2e8dcbdb62][/b:2e8dcbdb62].

The sins that are past are the sins previously committed under the Law. The remission of these sins was made possible by the forbearance of God until the Cross of Christ. Paul is explaining “the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament.” There is not the slightest indication in this passage that Paul is referring to a believer’s pre-salvation sins.

As always, we find our answers by reading through the general context of the passage (rather than “atomizing” the scripture), and searching other relevant passages (rather than playing the Greek Game just to make the passage say what we want).

I hope this helps, and I’ve been enjoying our discussions on these subjects. Also, that was an interesting point on Thieme’s condition. How ironic that the man who hyper-emphasized “rebound” for decades (and made so many others live in fear of what would happen if they didn’t “rebound”) will no longer able to “rebound” for the final years of his life.

Forgiven in Christ,
Liberty

sister quote Posted: 08-23-2007 10:20 PM Post subject: THIEME ADVOCATING JIHAD?

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I have been going slowly through all the posts in this Thieme thread. Sometimes I just have to stop and offer a challenge or a comment.

YOU SAID: In part
03-24-2007 10:32 AM
I could not wait to become a "Army Ranger, Marine Corps Recon or Navy Seal" So I could die for the honor of the United States, christianity, Berachah and my family and especially to be remembered on the Berachah prayer list. Not being capable of keeping up Thieme's teaching of the "super-grace" role with it's repetitive rebound mantra and with a visceral self-hatred of who I was, it was much simpler to cut my life short by dying for christianity in the status of "super-grace" while in combat, in the US military special forces. Besides I might posthmously be awarded the congressional medal of honor. Thieme often read congressional medal of honor winner's citations from the pulpit.

[b:c64345b2a9]Is this any different than a Muslim Jihadist strapping on a explosives belt and dying for Islam and family? [/b:c64345b2a9]

COMMENT:
If I uderstand you correctly, you are saying that Thieme's super militaristic ESPRIT DE CORPS as he would call it, equates in your mind to Muslim Jihad.

As far as I know he never advocated terrorist action against innocent civilians. Because of that, I respectfully disagree with comparing him with Muslim Jihadists. We have enough trouble from CNN and Larry King and others putting us "fundamentalists" in with the Muslim "fundamentalists" as it is.

I have to disagree you with you sister. You know Thieme advocated "glass bowl" bombing of Syria, Iraq, and Iran. This was in the 70s.

Thieme did advocate atrocities against innocent Muslim children. The same as Osama advocated the atrocity of 911, even though neither one was there to actually commit the violent act themself.

You can try to sugar-coat what went on/goes on at Berachah all you want. I know what happened to me from personal experience. I was broken down and re-educated. I felt I could have easily given my life(at that time) in killing Muslims or Communists, BECAUSE OF THIEME! [b:c64345b2a9]If that had meant strapping on a explosives vest, I would have done that, with extreme prejudice.[/b:c64345b2a9] The violent teachings of Thiemite idealogical fundamentalism is exactly the same as Islamic idealogical fundamentalism. Islam just doesn't have the same advanced military hardware as the United States. Personally, I am against any and all fundamentalism.

I was just a kid - a young teen and I trusted people that I should not have. Now I know better.

This is actually insulting. You would [b:c64345b2a9]minimize[/b:c64345b2a9] the psycological torture that I went through, because you "[u:c64345b2a9]have enough trouble from CNN and Larry King and others putting us "fundamentalists" in with the Muslim "fundamentalists" as it is[/u:c64345b2a9]." Are you kidding me? Your worried about an "image"? that people might have? Your worried about an image? UNBELIEVEABLE![b:c64345b2a9] WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH![/b:c64345b2a9]

You think that Thieme was not wrong in everything he taught? I strongly urge you to get Chafer's Sytematic Theology and actually compare what Chafer said. Many people have said to me that Thieme taught Chafer(one who even wrote a dissertation on Thieme). This is not true. Thieme [u:c64345b2a9]twisted[/u:c64345b2a9] Chafer for the most part. People who believe that Thieme was teaching Chafer are still believing Thieme's deception. I assume they say this because they never actually read all 8 volumes of Chafer, and they took Thieme's word for it. Thieme did manage to teach [u:c64345b2a9]some[/u:c64345b2a9] Chafer, but if Thieme taught you something and you think that it is Chafer or biblical - you need to check it out.

Rest assured I will make Larry King and the world gets a correct image of Thieme.


Truthtesty

sistersoap wrote:

"The one flock of today, if you want to call it that, is THE BODY OF CHRIST, which Peter was not part of."

Comment:

THE BODY OF CHRIST is the Church which ALL the apostles were a part of. This would include Peter.

I Cor 12:28: "And God hath set some [b:bef18a05ae]in the church[/b:bef18a05ae], first [b:bef18a05ae]apostles[/b:bef18a05ae]....."

In Christ,
truthlover

Long time lurker, first time poster. Sorry for the length of this post, but as it is I cut quite a bit out during editing.

Let me begin by saying that I agree with some of Thieme's teachings and disagree with others. I am not a "Thiemite" and was never a taper, although I do have many of his booklets. This post is not intended to defend or attack Thieme, or to defend or attack anyone here on this forum. This is just based on my impressions as a random internet reader. I have read most of the posts in this thread since the beginning and am concerned about one thing that I would like to bring to everyone's attention, but I am not going to quote threads or cite specific instances because that gets away from my point.

I am a believer in Christ. By faith in His saving work on the cross, I am a member of His body as I imagine most of you here are. This makes us family, in Christ. Thieme is also a believer in Christ by faith, and he is also therefore part of this family and a member of the body of Christ.

This is not to defend his teachings, this is to lead me to a new point. Scripture makes very clear how we are to treat the brethren, our fellow members of the body of Christ. It is my [i:e027a53842]opinion[/i:e027a53842] that some here, in their zealous desire to expose their disagreements with Thieme's teachings, have gone far beyond this and are in danger of acting in sin; not because they are right or wrong, but because of the motivations of their hearts. I think this has been demonstrated a number of ways, both by outright false statements and personal attacks.

Again, please note that I am not defending Thieme's teachings and I am not going to quote people in this thread where these things apply, else I fall into this same trap. I am only urging self-examination and temperance as is fitting for members of the body of Christ.

Romans 14:10-13 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."

Colossians 3:15 "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful."

1 Peter 1:22 "Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart."

1 John 2:9-11 "Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him."

Having said all that, if the teachings of Thieme are as bad as some here claim, it is not up to us to chastise or criticize. One could agree that going directly to him for a discussion of his doctrines is legitimate, but continually attacking his person to others is a heinous sin. There is not one passage in the New Testament under which we live which instructs us to criticize and evaluate another person; in fact there are many instructing us to do exactly the opposite.

Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Romans 15:5-6 "May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God."

1 Corinthians 4:4-5 "My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

James 5:9 "Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!"

Finally, [i:e027a53842]even if some of Thieme's teachings are unsound[/i:e027a53842], or going to the extreme if everything he teaches is false, then the Bible still does not allow us as brothers to attack him to anyone else. Best case scenario, we may bring it to his attention alone, or separate from him. We may even point out doctrinal issues with others and encourage them to separate from him. But never are we called to public excoriation of his person.

Matthew 24:10-13 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Romans 16:17 "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."

Philippians 1:18 "But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

1 Thessalonians 5:14-15 "And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone. Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else."

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you."

Titus 3:10-11 "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."
(all quotes above from the NIV)[/size:e027a53842]

I hope that these scriptures, which were written for many different situations, will help remind all of us what the general expectation is for us to each other as fellow heirs and sons in Christ. I would also like to refer to J. L. Wall's thesis, an oft-quoted source on this forum, which was critical of many of Thieme's teachings (and, I believe, was part of the reason Thieme did change some of his doctrines in the early 80s). Note, however, the well-considered statements used to convey a careful approach:

"To embark on such a study and critique is fraught with dangers. To attack a man of God without cause is worthy of divine discipline. To evaluate the ministry of one of God's servants, when it is not one's responsibility to do so, likewise is a precarious position to be in." (p. xvi)

"It is the prayerful desire of the author that no part of this dissertation will be construed as a malicious attack on a man but rather a fair evaluation of doctrine, and that the ultimate impact of this study will promote the unity, growth, purity, and stability of the body of Christ and will bring glory to our blessed matchless redeemer and Lord, Jesus Christ." (p. xvi)

"The thesis of this dissertation is that R. B. Thieme, Jr., is a gifted brother in Christ who has had some significant exegetical and theological contributions to make to the body of Christ, but that certain of his current teachings and emphases, will not bear up under close exegetical scrutiny and, therefore, have resulted in faulty and erroneous doctrinal and practical conclusions, which, though still within the limits of historic Christian orthodoxy, tend to affect negatively the lives of his disciples and to hinder the maintenance of Christian unity." (p. 151)

You and I and Thieme and all other Christians are brothers in Christ, so exhort and encourage; but for our own sakes, we should be vigilant against the trap of divisiveness and judging and other sins.

James 3:5-6 "Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell."

May we all take these things to heart. Grace be with God's people.

To sistersoap:



Chafer does say that Matthew 23:1-36 is Jesus condemning the scribes and Pharisees. Chafer does say it is addressed to the Apostles for the end time, when these instructions will apply. (Vol 5 p 114)

However, Chafer references 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:". Chafer addresses the difference between primary and secondary applications of scripture. Some scripture is addressed to Jews, some Gentiles, some Angels, etc... Just the same, [b:44632b1d54]all scripture is [/b:44632b1d54][b:44632b1d54]profitable[/b:44632b1d54] to everyone. Chafer equates [b:44632b1d54]profitable[/b:44632b1d54] with [b:44632b1d54]moral application[/b:44632b1d54], [b:44632b1d54]spiritual application[/b:44632b1d54] and [b:44632b1d54]secondary application[/b:44632b1d54]. The primary application being scripture address to a a person or particular class of people ie. Jew, Christiane etc... (Vol 7 p 212)

Chafer does address the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God numerous times with major distinctions noted between the two in the following: Vol. 4, Page 214 Vol. 5, Page 315 Vol. 5, Page 342 Vol. 7, Page 224.



Truthtesty

Hello Voltaic


I have an exercise for you. Replace the word Thieme with the word BTK killer, David Koresh, or Jim Jones. Now all these People supposedly "taught" the Word. SO knowing what you know now about thier histories and what you have just cited about "criticism" of a christian brother, How would you react differently? or would you? Would you just let the 900 plus drink poisonous koolaid? would you say or do nothing? Because he was teaching? Would you let the BTK killer (President of church congregation) just go on sadistically murdering? because he was a teacher? It boils down to this, at what point is responsibility to conscience more important than a "christian" teacher teaching?

At one level I could say how many would you let die? At another level, I say how many and how far would you let people suffer in a psycotic hell of false teaching (Andrea Yates). Or is that none of your "christian" business?



Truthtesty

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Truthtesty
I have an exercise for you. Replace the word Thieme with the word BTK killer, David Koresh, or Jim Jones. Now all these People supposedly "taught" the Word. SO knowing what you know now about thier histories and what you have just cited about "criticism" of a christian brother, How would you react differently? or would you? Would you just let the 900 plus drink poisonous koolaid? would you say or do nothing? Because he was teaching? Would you let the BTK killer (President of church congregation) just go on sadistically murdering? because he was a teacher? It boils down to this, at what point is responsibility to conscience more important than a "christian" teacher teaching?

At one level I could say how many would you let die? At another level, I say how many and how far would you let people suffer in a psycotic hell of false teaching (Andrea Yates).

These are odd points for this discussion. We are talking about matters of faith and orthodoxy, not criminality. If you want to talk about the merits of their beliefs, fine. But instead, you are appealing to mass murders and blatantly non-Christian beliefs (Koresh taught that he was the Messiah, so he clearly had not placed his faith in Christ) seems to be unrelated to the matters of Christian faith under discussion.

Joe Wall, after writing over 100 pages on Thieme's doctrinal errors, hardly had the courage before God to compare Thieme to mass murderers and serial killers. I urge you, honestly, to examine whether you are going about this the right way.

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Truthtesty
Or is that none of your "christian" business?

Now you misquote me. I never said it is none of anyone's business. In fact, I explicitly said that discussing doctrinal disagreements and helping to show others errors in their beliefs is OK. I even said that taking this kind of discussion directly to the teacher was acceptable. The Bible teaches this very clearly. My entreaty concerned personal attacks against a brother, nothing more.

Voltaic,


Voltaic

Quote

Joe Wall, after writing over 100 pages on Thieme's doctrinal errors, hardly had the courage before God to compare Thieme to mass murderers and serial killers. I urge you, honestly, to examine whether you are going about this the right way.

We clearly see they are criminal now. Hindsight is 20/20. What about beforehand? Would taking your disagreements to the teacher have been enough? What minimum violation of conscience do you have to see or hear being taught, before you [b:1b78ab2274]act[/b:1b78ab2274] out of good conscience? Or do you?

Voltaic

Quote

Koresh taught that he was the Messiah, so he clearly had not placed his faith in Christ

Ok you understand that. The Koresh cult followers "thought" they were christians. Everyone teaches differently, do they not? Everyone has a different understanding, do they not? Thieme teaches differently, does he not?

Do we really know who Thieme was? Thieme was extremely secretive about his personal life. As Dr. Wall said

Dr. Wall

Quote

"Finally, his differentiation between the "message" and the "man" is not completely a biblical view. It is true that honoring the teacher is not appropriate. However, God desires that the vessel he uses to communicate his message be one that does not detract from the message. [b:1b78ab2274]The argument that the life of the teacher is irrelevant is one also used by some cult leaders to excuse their life styles.20[/b:1b78ab2274]"

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"20 For example, the leaders of the Children of God teach that their people are[b:1b78ab2274] to ignore their blatant immorality and submit to their authoritative teaching because they are God's appointed authoritative teachers.[/b:1b78ab2274]

I just gave you a logical exercise to make a point and asked a few questions. I notice that you left out the BTK Killer. BTK was President of his church's congregation, and was an undercover sadistic killer for 30 years. Now if someone had leveled personal attacks against him, while he was teaching, what would you have done? Honestly? Would taking your disagreements to the teacher have been enough? And after BTK said leave my church, then what? I'll tell you "then what" more people would be sadistically totured and murdered.

Also, what personal attacks are you referring to? And what about Thieme's attacks on christians lives? What do you have to say about that?

For those capable of skepticism of Thieme, I would like to add Dr. Lifton was an [b:1b78ab2274]AIR FORCE[/b:1b78ab2274] psychologist from 1951 to 1953.


Truthtesty

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Truthtesty
We clearly see they are criminal now. Hindsight is 20/20. What about beforehand? Would taking your disagreements to the teacher have been enough? What minimum violation of conscience do you have to see or hear being taught, before you [b:0ea7e20051]act[/b:0ea7e20051] out of good conscience? Or do you?

You are conflating various issues again by putting defending lives from murder in the same note as teaching and instruction. There is no call in Scripture to "act" against any kind of doctrinal teachings. Paul and Peter were dealing with all kinds of heresies during the early church including so-called Christians denying Christ as well as pagan rituals of sacrifice, Roman polytheism, etc.; and not once did they entreat or invite any Christians to do anything about it. They commanded caution and vigilance and separation, nothing more or less. Even when Paul and Peter were naming people in their epistles, they didn't slander and malign them; they simply advised the brethren to remove them, encourage them to come back to the truth, etc.

So I need a better defintion of what you mean by "acting in good conscience" before I can answer. Does the NT say that we can point out false teachers and their doctrines of demons? Sure. Does the NT say that we can vilify them and slander them and make fun of them and (metaphorically) call for the heads of false teachers or their followers? Not once.

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Truthtesty
Ok you understand that. The Koresh cult followers "thought" they were christians. Everyone teaches differently, do they not? Everyone has a different understanding, do they not? Thieme teaches differently, does he not?

This is why, as I said in my post, discussing beliefs with Koresh and his followers would be allowed scripturally. But calling Koresh a jerk is not allowed, scripturally. In fact, the NT doesn't even say we can slander and bash on unbelievers and heretics. So frankly, in the matter of personal attacks, members of the body of Christ have no place whatsoever in this kind of business, especially against the brethren.

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Truthtesty
Do we really know who Thieme was? Thieme was extremely secretive about his personal life. As Dr. Wall said

As I said before, it is not my purpose here to discuss specific doctrines. I may agree with you and Dr. Wall that this was a false teaching, but I do not agree (nor does Wall) that this calls for public vilification or hatred or whatever else.

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Truthtesty
I just gave you a logical exercise to make a point and asked a few questions. I notice that you left out the BTK Killer.

I didn't leave out anyone. I specifically mentioned Koresh because I know more about him off the top of my head, but my reply was to all three of the people you mentioned as I quoted. In any case, the NT doesn't authorize me to call him names or slander him. He is a criminal and I hope he gets the chair, but that's a value judgment of his actions or beliefs, not his person.

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Truthtesty
Also, what personal attacks are you referring to?

I previously said I was not going to go through the thread and point out examples because then I am doing the very same thing I am trying to talk about, but the examples are many. Perhaps some of them were from a long time ago (the thread does go back over 18 months) and so I only recently read them but people who have been here awhile have forgotten the specifics.

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Truthtesty
And what about Thieme's attacks on christians lives? What do you have to say about that?

I'd probably decline to answer until I received more information. For example, did he say "members and teachers of denomination ABC are wrong because their doctrine XYZ" or did he say "Bob Jones of Poughkipsie, NY is a big fat jerk and he is going to hell!" or what?

And in [i:0ea7e20051]either[/i:0ea7e20051] case: does that make it OK for someone else to do it back? If someone curses you, are you allowed to curse him back? Even 1 Corinthians 2:15 says that the spiritual man judges things, not people.

-

I'm curious, do you believe that Thieme was a believer in Christ, saved by faith to be in heaven forever?

Truthtesty wrote:
We clearly see they are criminal now. Hindsight is 20/20. What about beforehand? Would taking your disagreements to the teacher have been enough? What minimum violation of conscience do you have to see or hear being taught, before you act out of good conscience? Or do you?

Voltaic

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You are conflating various issues again by putting defending lives from murder in the same note as teaching and instruction. There is no call in Scripture to "act" against any kind of doctrinal teachings. Paul and Peter were dealing with all kinds of heresies during the early church including so-called Christians denying Christ as well as pagan rituals of sacrifice, Roman polytheism, etc.; and not once did they entreat or invite any Christians to do anything about it. They commanded caution and vigilance and separation, nothing more or less. Even when Paul and Peter were naming people in their epistles, they didn't slander and malign them; they simply advised the brethren to remove them, encourage them to come back to the truth, etc.

Truthtesty
Conflating nothing. You are not answering the questions. I am showing the weakness and irresponsibility of your human approach to evil. I just inserted a known evil person BTK killer into the same scenario as Thieme and all you will do in that scenario is approach the the evil teacher with your disagreement. No more no less. This allows evil in this world to fester. Do you really consider yourself a contributing competent member of society? Or do you just parasite off of society?

Voltaic

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So I need a better defintion of what you mean by "acting in good conscience" before I can answer. Does the NT say that we can point out false teachers and their doctrines of demons? Sure. Does the NT say that we can vilify them and slander them and make fun of them and (metaphorically) call for the heads of false teachers or their followers? Not once.

Truthtesty
I think the definition is pretty simple. I'll rephrase the question. If you see something evil do you scream in fear or do you fight it verbally and if necessary physically?

You seem detached. I would bet that most people would call for the heads of a false teacher if they were physically harming someone in thier family and teaching the bible at the same time. Would you?


Truthtesty wrote:
Ok you understand that. The Koresh cult followers "thought" they were christians. Everyone teaches differently, do they not? Everyone has a different understanding, do they not? Thieme teaches differently, does he not?

Voltaic

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This is why, as I said in my post, discussing beliefs with Koresh and his followers would be allowed scripturally. But calling Koresh a jerk is not allowed, scripturally. In fact, the NT doesn't even say we can slander and bash on unbelievers and heretics. So frankly, in the matter of personal attacks, members of the body of Christ have no place whatsoever in this kind of business, especially against the brethren.

Truthtesty
The NT doesn't give us instructions on how to drive a car either. Do you drive a car? Where's your common sense? This is a difference between calling Koresh a "jerk" vs a murderous Cult leader that let children die and "taught" death. I am calling evil what it is - evil, that simple.

Truthtesty wrote:
Do we really know who Thieme was? Thieme was extremely secretive about his personal life. As Dr. Wall said

Voltaic

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As I said before, it is not my purpose here to discuss specific doctrines. I may agree with you and Dr. Wall that this was a false teaching, but I do not agree (nor does Wall) that this calls for public vilification or hatred or whatever else.

Truthtesty
I am just putting up a big red warning sign, if you have a problem with that then you are in the wrong forum.


Voltaic

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I previously said I was not going to go through the thread and point out examples because then I am doing the very same thing I am trying to talk about, but the examples are many. Perhaps some of them were from a long time ago (the thread does go back over 18 months) and so I only recently read them but people who have been here awhile have forgotten the specifics.

Truthtesty
So basically here you to tell me that I am conflating what you say and you accuse me of personal attacks on Thieme which you don't have evidence of.

And what about Thieme's attacks on christians lives? What do you have to say about that?

Voltaic

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I'd probably decline to answer until I received more information. For example, did he say "members and teachers of denomination ABC are wrong because their doctrine XYZ" or did he say "Bob Jones of Poughkipsie, NY is a big fat jerk and he is going to hell!" or what?

Truthtesty
You'd [b:ceb24f7c4a]probably[/b:ceb24f7c4a] decline to answer? You just [b:ceb24f7c4a]did decline[/b:ceb24f7c4a] to answer. Are you this unsure about everything you do?

You must be kidding. You're not going to give me details of my so-called personal attacks. You're not here to discuss specific doctrines, except for one of your own choosing - namecalling. But you have no "recollection of Thieme's personal attacks on christians? His attacks are there on tape.


Voltaic

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I'm curious, do you believe that Thieme was a believer in Christ, saved by faith to be in heaven forever?

Truthtesty
Thieme might be christian, but considering the psycological methods he used and his background he could just as easily been CIA.

Do you think BTK is christian?

Everything I have said about Thieme is backed up with evidence. If I made a mistake, then I admitted it.



Truthtesty