R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: August 23, 2007 06:59PM
To Sister
Your welcome.
Thankyou for your contribution. It's sounds as if Shwarz knew how to intelligently distinguish between logic and predjudice.
Do you know which verse Thieme referred to in Psalm 119? In Systematic Theology, Chafer says nothing about being skinned alive in Psalm 119.
Truthtesty
Your welcome.
Thankyou for your contribution. It's sounds as if Shwarz knew how to intelligently distinguish between logic and predjudice.
Do you know which verse Thieme referred to in Psalm 119? In Systematic Theology, Chafer says nothing about being skinned alive in Psalm 119.
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: August 24, 2007 03:03AM
HI Testy,
YOU SAID:
Your welcome.
Thankyou for your contribution. It's sounds as if Shwarz knew how to intelligently distinguish between logic and predjudice.
Yes, and he was always a gentleman about his activities too. He had genuine compassion on communists because they had been deceived by their leaders into believing they were on a moral crusade but without God, and their natural religious instincts were distorted into atheism, and their crusade was founded in deceit. Fred Schwarz knew their literature every bit as well as any communist did. He subscribed to their journals and read them with understanding. He explained all this to non communists lucidly. All Thieme ever did in the pulpit that I ever heard was shout about communism. Lots of heat, not much light.
You asked which verse in Psalm 119 used the expression "skinned alive with the whip" and the answer is NONE. I made the connection between "scourging" and the death march to Babylon. Thieme went into horrible detail of the tortures suffered by the captives on their journey from Jerusalem to Babylon. One of the worst was the practice of skinning a person ALIVE from head to toe. It was a sort of contest to see who could go all the way without killing the prisoner. The other famous torture he called the "zimah" {hope I remember this word correctly} or homosexual rape. It isn't hard to fill in the blanks left because of mixed company and teens listening. I assumed the whole point of all this graphic detail was to demonstrate that the Word of God, which is mentioned in nearly every verse of this longest Psalm in its book, is able to carry you through anything when "applied" as Thieme instructed us to do.
The fear generated by this process of survival being described in such memorable terms was tremendous. What other conclusion was reasonable to the listener when Thieme often expounded upon "skinning alive with the whip" as GOD'S DISCIPLINE OF THE BELIEVER as mentioned in the book of Hebrews? I MADE THE CONNECTION, but I don't think it was an unreasonable one.
Many of the pro Thieme posters in this forum demonstrate greater leaps than that in their thinking processes. It amazes me how they can go from point A to point Z with nothing in between. I expect if I had been challenged by someone outside Thieme's flock {which I never was, by the way} I probably would have said similar things. I am SURE that I would have vehemently defended "the Colonel" just as they try to do here. However no such challenge was possible then since there was no Internet and no way of researching outside the Thieme camp and meeting people who had serious concerns about what he was teaching and how he was teaching it. It actually never occurred to me to question anything seriously, and my guess is that our Thieme posters have not done so either. Some certainly do not seem to see the lack of rational links between points1,2,3, etc, that they have been taught and Scripture passages brought up to them to cast doubt on what they say. It is truly a kind of blindness. Maybe the more rational ones are somewhere else. I know at least one place online they congregate. But the folks here who spout Thieme do not seem to realize that is what they ARE doing. They assume he is always right despite their claims that he has admitted mistakes in the past. I certainly never ever heard such an admission on any tape I listened to. And nobody here has ever actually named such an admitted mistake or documented it.
Spiritual Liberty makes an excellent point in demanding that pro Thiemers demonstrate that the Scripture they cite to "prove" their beliefs actually deals with the topic at hand. During Bible class, Thieme constantly interrupted the flow of the minute piece of Scripture we were studying to give us 'THE DOCTRINE OF_____' and away he would go with "POINT ONE: "xxxxxxxxxx" followed by lists of verse references, NONE OF WHICH I EVER HAD TIME TO LOOK UP AND SEE IF THEY REALLY SUPPORTED HIS TEACHING. I suspect that this is the problem here. Folks assume that the Scriptures Thieme cites to make his case actually have something to do with the subject! His method of teaching limited our attention spans to tiny fragments and totally skipped the flow of thought through the entire chapter and book, and never discussed other books relevant to the topic at hand.
Thieme's ATOMIZING style of teaching practically guarantees one will never be able to follow through the reasoning of a passage, let alone a whole book. So his false doctrines go unchallenged and unrecognized. He had a good idea originally but went far beyond it as the years went by adding his own ideas to Scripture and wasting lots of time with non Biblical content and opinions thrown in.
All this was "flown in under the radar" unless someone actually pointed it out to you. And nobody ever did. One did not in taper groups and certainly not at Berachah itself.
Anyway, I hope I have answered your question. If Chafer does not refer to skinning alive with the whip in his Systematic Theology, try the word SCOURGING, if there is an index. It ought to show up in Hebrews at least. But then I don't have his books. The important point is WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. Who knows where Thieme got his idea of the "death march to Babylon" and Ezra being the author of Psalm 119? It only matters WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? And Psalm 119 is a wonderful "ode" to the power of God's Word under any circumstance.
The apostle Paul shows that the power of truth is null and void when that truth is mixed with error, especially LEGALISTIC error, because grace is ineffective when mixed with legalism. Thieme does this in the name of grace! Rebound is not grace, in practice it becomes a work and it nullifies the finished work of Christ on the Cross all the while shouting WE ARE GRACE ORIENTED. So I hardly think anyone should object when this is pointed out. One never gets past confession of sins in one's relationship to God until you can see that the Cross was God's final and complete dealing with sin. They were all judged AND FORGIVEN at the Cross. The fear tatic is prominent in Thieme's teaching, and so is the elitist mind set that WE are better than other Christians. So now we have real Pharisees being trained in the name of grace! I know. I was one.
Sistersoap
YOU SAID:
Your welcome.
Thankyou for your contribution. It's sounds as if Shwarz knew how to intelligently distinguish between logic and predjudice.
Yes, and he was always a gentleman about his activities too. He had genuine compassion on communists because they had been deceived by their leaders into believing they were on a moral crusade but without God, and their natural religious instincts were distorted into atheism, and their crusade was founded in deceit. Fred Schwarz knew their literature every bit as well as any communist did. He subscribed to their journals and read them with understanding. He explained all this to non communists lucidly. All Thieme ever did in the pulpit that I ever heard was shout about communism. Lots of heat, not much light.
You asked which verse in Psalm 119 used the expression "skinned alive with the whip" and the answer is NONE. I made the connection between "scourging" and the death march to Babylon. Thieme went into horrible detail of the tortures suffered by the captives on their journey from Jerusalem to Babylon. One of the worst was the practice of skinning a person ALIVE from head to toe. It was a sort of contest to see who could go all the way without killing the prisoner. The other famous torture he called the "zimah" {hope I remember this word correctly} or homosexual rape. It isn't hard to fill in the blanks left because of mixed company and teens listening. I assumed the whole point of all this graphic detail was to demonstrate that the Word of God, which is mentioned in nearly every verse of this longest Psalm in its book, is able to carry you through anything when "applied" as Thieme instructed us to do.
The fear generated by this process of survival being described in such memorable terms was tremendous. What other conclusion was reasonable to the listener when Thieme often expounded upon "skinning alive with the whip" as GOD'S DISCIPLINE OF THE BELIEVER as mentioned in the book of Hebrews? I MADE THE CONNECTION, but I don't think it was an unreasonable one.
Many of the pro Thieme posters in this forum demonstrate greater leaps than that in their thinking processes. It amazes me how they can go from point A to point Z with nothing in between. I expect if I had been challenged by someone outside Thieme's flock {which I never was, by the way} I probably would have said similar things. I am SURE that I would have vehemently defended "the Colonel" just as they try to do here. However no such challenge was possible then since there was no Internet and no way of researching outside the Thieme camp and meeting people who had serious concerns about what he was teaching and how he was teaching it. It actually never occurred to me to question anything seriously, and my guess is that our Thieme posters have not done so either. Some certainly do not seem to see the lack of rational links between points1,2,3, etc, that they have been taught and Scripture passages brought up to them to cast doubt on what they say. It is truly a kind of blindness. Maybe the more rational ones are somewhere else. I know at least one place online they congregate. But the folks here who spout Thieme do not seem to realize that is what they ARE doing. They assume he is always right despite their claims that he has admitted mistakes in the past. I certainly never ever heard such an admission on any tape I listened to. And nobody here has ever actually named such an admitted mistake or documented it.
Spiritual Liberty makes an excellent point in demanding that pro Thiemers demonstrate that the Scripture they cite to "prove" their beliefs actually deals with the topic at hand. During Bible class, Thieme constantly interrupted the flow of the minute piece of Scripture we were studying to give us 'THE DOCTRINE OF_____' and away he would go with "POINT ONE: "xxxxxxxxxx" followed by lists of verse references, NONE OF WHICH I EVER HAD TIME TO LOOK UP AND SEE IF THEY REALLY SUPPORTED HIS TEACHING. I suspect that this is the problem here. Folks assume that the Scriptures Thieme cites to make his case actually have something to do with the subject! His method of teaching limited our attention spans to tiny fragments and totally skipped the flow of thought through the entire chapter and book, and never discussed other books relevant to the topic at hand.
Thieme's ATOMIZING style of teaching practically guarantees one will never be able to follow through the reasoning of a passage, let alone a whole book. So his false doctrines go unchallenged and unrecognized. He had a good idea originally but went far beyond it as the years went by adding his own ideas to Scripture and wasting lots of time with non Biblical content and opinions thrown in.
All this was "flown in under the radar" unless someone actually pointed it out to you. And nobody ever did. One did not in taper groups and certainly not at Berachah itself.
Anyway, I hope I have answered your question. If Chafer does not refer to skinning alive with the whip in his Systematic Theology, try the word SCOURGING, if there is an index. It ought to show up in Hebrews at least. But then I don't have his books. The important point is WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. Who knows where Thieme got his idea of the "death march to Babylon" and Ezra being the author of Psalm 119? It only matters WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? And Psalm 119 is a wonderful "ode" to the power of God's Word under any circumstance.
The apostle Paul shows that the power of truth is null and void when that truth is mixed with error, especially LEGALISTIC error, because grace is ineffective when mixed with legalism. Thieme does this in the name of grace! Rebound is not grace, in practice it becomes a work and it nullifies the finished work of Christ on the Cross all the while shouting WE ARE GRACE ORIENTED. So I hardly think anyone should object when this is pointed out. One never gets past confession of sins in one's relationship to God until you can see that the Cross was God's final and complete dealing with sin. They were all judged AND FORGIVEN at the Cross. The fear tatic is prominent in Thieme's teaching, and so is the elitist mind set that WE are better than other Christians. So now we have real Pharisees being trained in the name of grace! I know. I was one.
Sistersoap
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: August 24, 2007 12:20PM
Hi Testy,
I have been going slowly through all the posts in this Thieme thread. Sometimes I just have to stop and offer a challenge or a comment.
YOU SAID: In part
03-24-2007 10:32 AM
I could not wait to become a "Army Ranger, Marine Corps Recon or Navy Seal" So I could die for the honor of the United States, christianity, Berachah and my family and especially to be remembered on the Berachah prayer list. Not being capable of keeping up Thieme's teaching of the "super-grace" role with it's repetitive rebound mantra and with a visceral self-hatred of who I was, it was much simpler to cut my life short by dying for christianity in the status of "super-grace" while in combat, in the US military special forces. Besides I might posthmously be awarded the congressional medal of honor. Thieme often read congressional medal of honor winner's citations from the pulpit.
Is this any different than a Muslim Jihadist strapping on a explosives belt and dying for Islam and family?
COMMENT:
If I uderstand you correctly, you are saying that Thieme's super militaristic ESPRIT DE CORPS as he would call it, equates in your mind to Muslim Jihad.
As far as I know he never advocated terrorist action against innocent civilians. Because of that, I respectfully disagree with comparing him with Muslim Jihadists. We have enough trouble from CNN and Larry King and others putting us "fundamentalists" in with the Muslim "fundamentalists" as it is.
YOU WENT ON TO SAY:
What was it Thieme said? "The Army Rangers sure love those ""Berachah boys"" How many Berachah boys work for Blackwater? Blackwater (right-wing mercenary christian corporation) is recruiting special forces soldiers of the USA. Blackwater operates outside of US law A blackwater security contractor makes 20,000 dollars per month, while a regular US soldier taking the same risk earns at best 1/5th of that salary. Blackwater operated domestically during Katrina and is setting up operation in every US coastal state.
COMMENT:
I lost your train of thought from Muslim Jihadists to Blackwater and Hurricane Katrina. I know Thieme is super militaristic and that you don't care for that. I think he brought too much of the military into his pulpit. He treated his congregaton like his private platoon, and he ejoyed "sweating their shadow into the wall" as if this were "beast barracks." I am sure you know the lingo! But how is Thieme connected to Katrina, Blackwater and so forth? Forgive me if I was not paying attention, but I totally missed the connection.
When you mentioned MARTIAL LAW we have a whole other can of worms to deal with. I doubt that Berachah is going to hold back the tide of evil in this country. It isn't that important an organization. But I agree in general with your concerns about martial law. All kinds of kooks and serious fringe groups can do lots of harm in an "emergency."
YOU SAID:
If the president declares Martial Law, Blackwater would be there to enforce right-wing christian totalianarism over democracy. Extreme right wing-christians don't mind an authoritative fascist "one world order" as long as it is a right-wing christian authoritative fascist "one world order". Sounds kinda like "Taliban".
COMMENT:
I SUPPOSE THAT IS WHY "GALIBAN" chose that particular screen name? Makes sense to me.....
YOU SAID:
Jesus did not say "by this sign conquer", Constantine did. Jesus said "Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves". Constantine selected the books of the bible (council of Nicea).
COMMENT:
Right. Jesus did not say IN THIS SIGN CONQUER. Constantine claimed he saw Jesus or heard His voice from heaven in a vision before battle.
YOU SAID:
Constantine selected the books of the bible (council of Nicea).
COMMENT:
Nope. The Holy Spirit made them evident long before that among God's people. They were recognized long before Constantine! See the following scripture:
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction.
Here we have PETER calling PAUL'S WRITINGS SCRIPTURE AS WELL AS REFERRING TO OTHER SCRIPTURES. This was, of course, long before Constantine. So I differ with you here, too.
YOU SAID:
There was no separation of church and state in Rome. The Ceaser was the head of the church, the "Pontifus Maximus." The Pope carries this title to this day. If used incorrectly the "Roman bible" can used by extremists as a blueprint for Roman christian fascist Imperialism.
COMMENT:
Yes the Roman Catholic church's Bible is not to be trusted totally and their system of false teaching from it is even worse. EXTREMISTS can take the blessed King James Bible and make an idol out of it and use it as a blueprint for some kind of "Christian extremist fascism" but I don't think I will toss my KJB out.
The Pope however is quite capable of creating all kinds of movements which are harmful to our country and to others as well. For example, I think the Pople has encouraged the MEXICANS and other Catholic Hispanics to INVADE US AND TAKE WHAT THEY WANT, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO IT. How else can you explain the SENSE OF MARTYRDOM we see on TV on the part of illegal aliens??? The Pope is a friend of "democracy" as long as it can be used to further his religion. He is capable of getting along with Hitler and Stalin also. Very realistic and TREACHEROUS.
I don't equate CHRISTIAN and ROMAN CATHOLIC. I believe that the Roman church is the world's BIGGEST CULT.
YOU SAID:
I'd also like to point out that Thieme taught from a so-called "christian pulpit" that Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Lebanon should all be attacked and conquered. This was in the early 1970s!
People need to speak out thier door, before the right-wing fascists corporations gain enough power to kick in your door.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
COMMENT:
You and many others, Testy. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Sistersoap
I have been going slowly through all the posts in this Thieme thread. Sometimes I just have to stop and offer a challenge or a comment.
YOU SAID: In part
03-24-2007 10:32 AM
I could not wait to become a "Army Ranger, Marine Corps Recon or Navy Seal" So I could die for the honor of the United States, christianity, Berachah and my family and especially to be remembered on the Berachah prayer list. Not being capable of keeping up Thieme's teaching of the "super-grace" role with it's repetitive rebound mantra and with a visceral self-hatred of who I was, it was much simpler to cut my life short by dying for christianity in the status of "super-grace" while in combat, in the US military special forces. Besides I might posthmously be awarded the congressional medal of honor. Thieme often read congressional medal of honor winner's citations from the pulpit.
Is this any different than a Muslim Jihadist strapping on a explosives belt and dying for Islam and family?
COMMENT:
If I uderstand you correctly, you are saying that Thieme's super militaristic ESPRIT DE CORPS as he would call it, equates in your mind to Muslim Jihad.
As far as I know he never advocated terrorist action against innocent civilians. Because of that, I respectfully disagree with comparing him with Muslim Jihadists. We have enough trouble from CNN and Larry King and others putting us "fundamentalists" in with the Muslim "fundamentalists" as it is.
YOU WENT ON TO SAY:
What was it Thieme said? "The Army Rangers sure love those ""Berachah boys"" How many Berachah boys work for Blackwater? Blackwater (right-wing mercenary christian corporation) is recruiting special forces soldiers of the USA. Blackwater operates outside of US law A blackwater security contractor makes 20,000 dollars per month, while a regular US soldier taking the same risk earns at best 1/5th of that salary. Blackwater operated domestically during Katrina and is setting up operation in every US coastal state.
COMMENT:
I lost your train of thought from Muslim Jihadists to Blackwater and Hurricane Katrina. I know Thieme is super militaristic and that you don't care for that. I think he brought too much of the military into his pulpit. He treated his congregaton like his private platoon, and he ejoyed "sweating their shadow into the wall" as if this were "beast barracks." I am sure you know the lingo! But how is Thieme connected to Katrina, Blackwater and so forth? Forgive me if I was not paying attention, but I totally missed the connection.
When you mentioned MARTIAL LAW we have a whole other can of worms to deal with. I doubt that Berachah is going to hold back the tide of evil in this country. It isn't that important an organization. But I agree in general with your concerns about martial law. All kinds of kooks and serious fringe groups can do lots of harm in an "emergency."
YOU SAID:
If the president declares Martial Law, Blackwater would be there to enforce right-wing christian totalianarism over democracy. Extreme right wing-christians don't mind an authoritative fascist "one world order" as long as it is a right-wing christian authoritative fascist "one world order". Sounds kinda like "Taliban".
COMMENT:
I SUPPOSE THAT IS WHY "GALIBAN" chose that particular screen name? Makes sense to me.....
YOU SAID:
Jesus did not say "by this sign conquer", Constantine did. Jesus said "Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves". Constantine selected the books of the bible (council of Nicea).
COMMENT:
Right. Jesus did not say IN THIS SIGN CONQUER. Constantine claimed he saw Jesus or heard His voice from heaven in a vision before battle.
YOU SAID:
Constantine selected the books of the bible (council of Nicea).
COMMENT:
Nope. The Holy Spirit made them evident long before that among God's people. They were recognized long before Constantine! See the following scripture:
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction.
Here we have PETER calling PAUL'S WRITINGS SCRIPTURE AS WELL AS REFERRING TO OTHER SCRIPTURES. This was, of course, long before Constantine. So I differ with you here, too.
YOU SAID:
There was no separation of church and state in Rome. The Ceaser was the head of the church, the "Pontifus Maximus." The Pope carries this title to this day. If used incorrectly the "Roman bible" can used by extremists as a blueprint for Roman christian fascist Imperialism.
COMMENT:
Yes the Roman Catholic church's Bible is not to be trusted totally and their system of false teaching from it is even worse. EXTREMISTS can take the blessed King James Bible and make an idol out of it and use it as a blueprint for some kind of "Christian extremist fascism" but I don't think I will toss my KJB out.
The Pope however is quite capable of creating all kinds of movements which are harmful to our country and to others as well. For example, I think the Pople has encouraged the MEXICANS and other Catholic Hispanics to INVADE US AND TAKE WHAT THEY WANT, THEY ARE ENTITLED TO IT. How else can you explain the SENSE OF MARTYRDOM we see on TV on the part of illegal aliens??? The Pope is a friend of "democracy" as long as it can be used to further his religion. He is capable of getting along with Hitler and Stalin also. Very realistic and TREACHEROUS.
I don't equate CHRISTIAN and ROMAN CATHOLIC. I believe that the Roman church is the world's BIGGEST CULT.
YOU SAID:
I'd also like to point out that Thieme taught from a so-called "christian pulpit" that Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Lebanon should all be attacked and conquered. This was in the early 1970s!
People need to speak out thier door, before the right-wing fascists corporations gain enough power to kick in your door.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
COMMENT:
You and many others, Testy. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Sistersoap
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: August 24, 2007 12:48PM
Hi Testy,
I am going through this forum and catching up. I don't know if someone else has answered this post after page sixteen where I am at present, so please excuse me if they have.....
YOU SAID:
I don't know about all that Greek stuff but the plain English has something to say that disagrees with what you say here about there being a difference between what JESUS SAID AND WHAT PAUL SAID. You imply a contradiction between Jesus and Paul or at least lesser authority on the part of the Apostle Paul.
Testy, JESUS TOLD PAUL WHAT TO PREACH. PAUL'S GOSPEL was from Jesus glorified in Heaven and he received this in more than one vision. Jesus told Paul he had a different assignment than the Twelve because Paul was raised up to go to the Gentiles with the "gospel of the grace of God, the Mystery doctrine" which was NOT REVEALED to anyone until it was revealed to Paul.
The Gentiles were supposed to be evangelized by the Twelve AFTER ISRAEL AS A NATION was converted to their Risen Glorified Messiah Jesus. This never happened, as Israel's leadership, including PAUL at the time, joined the Gentile rebellion against God, so the prophetic Kingdom program was suspended and Paul was converted and instructed in a NEW MESSAGE directly from Jesus in Heaven. Peter, James and John recognized this change and acknowledged that the Twelve would henceforth go to the CIRCUMCISON and PAUL would go to the UNCIRCUMCISION. This division is essential to understanding the New Testament. There is no conflicting message by Paul at all. See Acts and other Scriptures I have given below.
May I respectfully suggest the following Scriptures challenge this idea? Let me know if you think what I say is reasonable and Scriptural or not.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
{The Jews of Rome speaking to Paul}:
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And gradually Israel became judicially blinded to Paul's gospel as a nation, and Paul went to the Gentiles with his gospel of the grace of God, which was the message JESUS GAVE TO PAUL not to Peter and the Eleven. It is in the Pauline epistles that this gospel is explained in detail. This is called RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD. Thieme seems to teach standard right division, but it leaves a lot hanging, and fails to take into account the significant differences between what God told PETER to preach and what He told PAUL to preach. Thus you get confusion and some think there is a real contradiction between the two. Nope. Just two different assignments
All Scripture is equally inspired and is all profitable. NOT ALL OF IT is addressed to us. If we take someone else's personal mail and read it, we can profit from it, but following its instructions as if it were addressed TO US would be wrong.
The two differing messages given to Peter and to Paul were BOTH FROM JESUS and Paul's gospel is the last gospel Jesus gave to be preached at this time. Peter's message and mission was to the Jews as part of Christ's offer of the KINDDOM to Israel as per the Pentecostal sermon in early Acts. This was addressed to Jews only until the nation was converted, upon which occasion JESUS WOULD RETURN and establish the prophesied Kindgom on earth.
This did not happen and the prophetic program for Israel as a nation was SUSPENDED because of their unbelief. The Apostle Paul himself was part of this unbelieving response to Messiah. How amazing that God took this man who personified this rebellion and unbelief and converted him and sent him to PREACH THE MYSTERY THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, which was not revealed until Jesus taught it to Paul.
The time in which we find ourselves now is still a continuation of that GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD offered by Paul to the Gentiles after Israel as a nation rejected her Messiah after his Resurrection.
I hope this makes sense to you, Testy. You have said in one place I have read so far that you are searching for truth. Well this is some of it. Give it some thought, OK?
THIEME made the MYSTERY an object of his own "priestly" incantation. which only he could explain and only to those who followed him. He said you could not GROW TO MATURITY and learn this by simply reading your English Bible. Well, I have just explained the basic truth of THE MYSTERY, which is CHRIST IN YOU, YOUR HOPE OF GLORY, and the formation of the Body of Christ composed of Jew and Gentile believers in this time segment. This is the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, accessed by GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and it is EASY to figure out in the English. If it were all that complicated, it would not seem so arcane and special. It is special, but not arcane.
All the Bible was put there to be understood. We were never instructed to depend upon a man for all truth. We have a wonderful English Bible and it is a good faithful translation in the King James Bible. But that is another issue.....
Sistersoap
I am going through this forum and catching up. I don't know if someone else has answered this post after page sixteen where I am at present, so please excuse me if they have.....
YOU SAID:
Quote
"Truthtesty"
To brainout:
Joint (860) (haphe from hápto = to connect, adjoin) refers to a juncture or point of contact of one part of body with another. Joints or parts of contact are very important among the members of Christ's body even as the joints are to the body (see note Colossians 2:19). Spiritually, these joints receive their nourishment from the Head, Christ (see note Colossians 1:18), but how we are joined together with other members of Christ's body affects the whole body of Christ, the Church.
SUNARMOLOGEW means "a harmony of thinking; a unity of words or ideas; concord in thinking", with emphasis on accuracy because the thinking is based on God's word.
SUMBIBAZW from sun - sun 4862 and bibazo (to force; causative (by reduplication) of the base of 939); to drive together, i.e. unite (in association or affection), (mentally) to infer, show, teach:--compact, assuredly gather, intrust, knit together, prove.
IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT A "RIGHT" PASTOR HAVING SOLE AUTHORITY OVER HIS OWN CONGREGATION. THERE IS SOME CREDIBILITY PROBLEMS PAUL HAS WITH PETER AND JAMES. PAUL WAS NOT ONE OF THE ORIGINAL APOSTLES. PAUL NEVER MET JESUS IN THE FLESH. SO IF THERE IS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAYS AND WHAT PAUL SAYS, WELL JESUS WINS THAT DEBATE HANDS DOWN.
Truthtesty
I don't know about all that Greek stuff but the plain English has something to say that disagrees with what you say here about there being a difference between what JESUS SAID AND WHAT PAUL SAID. You imply a contradiction between Jesus and Paul or at least lesser authority on the part of the Apostle Paul.
Testy, JESUS TOLD PAUL WHAT TO PREACH. PAUL'S GOSPEL was from Jesus glorified in Heaven and he received this in more than one vision. Jesus told Paul he had a different assignment than the Twelve because Paul was raised up to go to the Gentiles with the "gospel of the grace of God, the Mystery doctrine" which was NOT REVEALED to anyone until it was revealed to Paul.
The Gentiles were supposed to be evangelized by the Twelve AFTER ISRAEL AS A NATION was converted to their Risen Glorified Messiah Jesus. This never happened, as Israel's leadership, including PAUL at the time, joined the Gentile rebellion against God, so the prophetic Kingdom program was suspended and Paul was converted and instructed in a NEW MESSAGE directly from Jesus in Heaven. Peter, James and John recognized this change and acknowledged that the Twelve would henceforth go to the CIRCUMCISON and PAUL would go to the UNCIRCUMCISION. This division is essential to understanding the New Testament. There is no conflicting message by Paul at all. See Acts and other Scriptures I have given below.
May I respectfully suggest the following Scriptures challenge this idea? Let me know if you think what I say is reasonable and Scriptural or not.
Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
Act 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
{The Jews of Rome speaking to Paul}:
Act 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And gradually Israel became judicially blinded to Paul's gospel as a nation, and Paul went to the Gentiles with his gospel of the grace of God, which was the message JESUS GAVE TO PAUL not to Peter and the Eleven. It is in the Pauline epistles that this gospel is explained in detail. This is called RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF GOD. Thieme seems to teach standard right division, but it leaves a lot hanging, and fails to take into account the significant differences between what God told PETER to preach and what He told PAUL to preach. Thus you get confusion and some think there is a real contradiction between the two. Nope. Just two different assignments
All Scripture is equally inspired and is all profitable. NOT ALL OF IT is addressed to us. If we take someone else's personal mail and read it, we can profit from it, but following its instructions as if it were addressed TO US would be wrong.
The two differing messages given to Peter and to Paul were BOTH FROM JESUS and Paul's gospel is the last gospel Jesus gave to be preached at this time. Peter's message and mission was to the Jews as part of Christ's offer of the KINDDOM to Israel as per the Pentecostal sermon in early Acts. This was addressed to Jews only until the nation was converted, upon which occasion JESUS WOULD RETURN and establish the prophesied Kindgom on earth.
This did not happen and the prophetic program for Israel as a nation was SUSPENDED because of their unbelief. The Apostle Paul himself was part of this unbelieving response to Messiah. How amazing that God took this man who personified this rebellion and unbelief and converted him and sent him to PREACH THE MYSTERY THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, which was not revealed until Jesus taught it to Paul.
The time in which we find ourselves now is still a continuation of that GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD offered by Paul to the Gentiles after Israel as a nation rejected her Messiah after his Resurrection.
I hope this makes sense to you, Testy. You have said in one place I have read so far that you are searching for truth. Well this is some of it. Give it some thought, OK?
THIEME made the MYSTERY an object of his own "priestly" incantation. which only he could explain and only to those who followed him. He said you could not GROW TO MATURITY and learn this by simply reading your English Bible. Well, I have just explained the basic truth of THE MYSTERY, which is CHRIST IN YOU, YOUR HOPE OF GLORY, and the formation of the Body of Christ composed of Jew and Gentile believers in this time segment. This is the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD, accessed by GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE, and it is EASY to figure out in the English. If it were all that complicated, it would not seem so arcane and special. It is special, but not arcane.
All the Bible was put there to be understood. We were never instructed to depend upon a man for all truth. We have a wonderful English Bible and it is a good faithful translation in the King James Bible. But that is another issue.....
Sistersoap
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: August 26, 2007 08:14AM
To sister:
I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US corporations who do business day to day with Communist China (ie. sending American jobs overseas, Walmart, etc...). I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US government borrowing money from Communist China to the point where Communist China now holds 9% all of US Foreign debt. If Communist China demanded it's money today, it would send the US economy into a tailspin. Communist China and Japan are the leading lenders for the USA, Communist China being the leader over Japan. That's not the Pope doing that, that is corporations and the current US government's foreign policy. Is the Catholic Church cultic, yes it is. Are there honest truth seeking christians in the Catholic Church? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking christians at Berachah? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking Protestants? Yes. No one knows all. However, I would be very interested if you could show the original manuscripts written by each of the Apostles writers. That would probably end a lot of debate.
You pointed out that I said:
"SO IF THERE IS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAYS AND WHAT PAUL SAYS, WELL JESUS WINS THAT DEBATE HANDS DOWN."
I think the key word here is "IF". To me it only makes sense to take the Word(s) of Jesus as number 1. It makes no sense to me to accept what is contrary to what Jesus said.
Also, I wrote this to brainout to challenge Thieme's false "right pastor" doctrine. So would you kindly tell me what you think of:
Mathew 23: 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
CLEARLY THIS IS NOT A "LORDING OVER" GENTILE AUTHORITY, AS ALL HAVE KNOWN GENTILE AUTHORITY.
IF PAUL TEACHES AN AUTHORITY DIFFERENT THAN JESUS, THEN I DISAGREE WITH PAUL. ALSO, JESUS CALLED PETER THE "ROCK", NOT PAUL. ALSO I AM A BIT SKEPTICAL AS TO WHY PAUL RAN TO THE ROMAN SOLDIERS FOR HELP, INSTEAD OF STANDING HIS GROUND AND CALLING FOR GOD'S HELP INSTEAD. WHERE WAS PAUL'S VISION THEN?
TRUTHTESTY
I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US corporations who do business day to day with Communist China (ie. sending American jobs overseas, Walmart, etc...). I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US government borrowing money from Communist China to the point where Communist China now holds 9% all of US Foreign debt. If Communist China demanded it's money today, it would send the US economy into a tailspin. Communist China and Japan are the leading lenders for the USA, Communist China being the leader over Japan. That's not the Pope doing that, that is corporations and the current US government's foreign policy. Is the Catholic Church cultic, yes it is. Are there honest truth seeking christians in the Catholic Church? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking christians at Berachah? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking Protestants? Yes. No one knows all. However, I would be very interested if you could show the original manuscripts written by each of the Apostles writers. That would probably end a lot of debate.
You pointed out that I said:
"SO IF THERE IS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAYS AND WHAT PAUL SAYS, WELL JESUS WINS THAT DEBATE HANDS DOWN."
I think the key word here is "IF". To me it only makes sense to take the Word(s) of Jesus as number 1. It makes no sense to me to accept what is contrary to what Jesus said.
Also, I wrote this to brainout to challenge Thieme's false "right pastor" doctrine. So would you kindly tell me what you think of:
Mathew 23: 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
CLEARLY THIS IS NOT A "LORDING OVER" GENTILE AUTHORITY, AS ALL HAVE KNOWN GENTILE AUTHORITY.
IF PAUL TEACHES AN AUTHORITY DIFFERENT THAN JESUS, THEN I DISAGREE WITH PAUL. ALSO, JESUS CALLED PETER THE "ROCK", NOT PAUL. ALSO I AM A BIT SKEPTICAL AS TO WHY PAUL RAN TO THE ROMAN SOLDIERS FOR HELP, INSTEAD OF STANDING HIS GROUND AND CALLING FOR GOD'S HELP INSTEAD. WHERE WAS PAUL'S VISION THEN?
TRUTHTESTY
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: August 26, 2007 10:25AM
Dear Testy,
My comments back to you are in {{{xxx}}} below.
YOU SAID:
I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US corporations who do business day to day with Communist China (ie. sending American jobs overseas, Walmart, etc...). I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US government borrowing money from Communist China to the point where Communist China now holds 9% all of US Foreign debt. If Communist China demanded it's money today, it would send the US economy into a tailspin.
{{{I feel sure he would say it is an unwise policy, but he would also stick to what he saw as his God given mission: to teach the truth about Communism and to show from their own literature what they ALWAYS do and how they do it. On other issues I am sure he would have had a very interesting opinion!}}}
YOU SAID:
Communist China and Japan are the leading lenders for the USA, Communist China being the leader over Japan. That's not the Pope doing that, that is corporations and the current US government's foreign policy.
{{{Yes and our gov't is very unwise to follow its policies. We will undoubtedly suffer for it greatly. I still think the Pope has more influence on WORLD economic events than is generally believed, after all his church IS ALSO A STATE that sends and receives ambassadors, AND the Papacy takes great credit to itself for creating conditions allowing the Iron Curtain to fall and economic communism in Eastern Europe to implode.}}}
YOU SAID:
Is the Catholic Church cultic, yes it is. Are there honest truth seeking christians in the Catholic Church? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking christians at Berachah? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking Protestants? Yes. No one knows all. However, I would be very interested if you could show the original manuscripts written by each of the Apostles writers. That would probably end a lot of debate.
{{{We don't need the "original manuscripts" we have accurate copies and it is not Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus of Westcott and Hort fame. Go to BIBLE FOR TODAY and the DEAN BURGON SOCIETY web sites for more information and do research to get the "other side" of the story. You sure won't see or hear it on the History Channel or any other TV channel. But you CAN find REASONABLE proof that would stand up in a court of law to trust the sound manuscripts passed down with care and devotion from one generation to the next. I can't tell you more than that in just one post. Do some reading on it. Check out those who do believe we still have God's Words because HE PROMISED TO PRESERVE THEM TO ALL GENERATIONS. I am sure you have heard "the other" side, that of the skeptics and unbelievers. You feel comfortable consulting and citing Dr.Waite to refute Thieme, now it is perhaps time to read what he has to say on Bible manuscripts and their transmission for yourself. :) }}}
YOU SAID:
You pointed out that I said:
"SO IF THERE IS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAYS AND WHAT PAUL SAYS, WELL JESUS WINS THAT DEBATE HANDS DOWN."
I think the key word here is "IF". To me it only makes sense to take the Word(s) of Jesus as number 1. It makes no sense to me to accept what is contrary to what Jesus said.
{{{Well Testy, if you don't accept that it was JESUS who LATER gave PAUL his message AFTER Israel as a Nation rejected him after his resurrection, what else is there to talk about on this subject? you can call a halt if you want to all divine revelation after the Gospels, but God did not do that. We are to follow the latest orders given us, and that was through Paul's epistles. There is a DIFFERENCE in what Peter said and what Paul said, and Jesus said things in the Gospels that He later instructed Paul differently about BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL INTENDED RECIPIENTS of the Gospel events, the Jews at that time, refused to acknowledge the facts of their Messiah's coming, His life, His death, and His resurrection, with the prophetic intent to establish the Promised Kingdom of God on earth. When the humans involved in Israel's leadership and thence the majority of the population of Israel at that time decided to CONTINUE TO REJECT MESSIAH, Jesus raised up Paul, BOTH a Jew and a Roman born to give a new message, the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.
All this is helpful to me because it makes much more sense than the teaching of Thieme on these subjects.
I won't argue these facts. Just do some research IN THE BIBLE itself and seek others who DO believe we have a valid preserved divine revelation from God. If we do not, and that is what the History Channel evidently contends, we are toast anyway and none of this matters a whit. But they don't know everything, and what they leave out is EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT. it sounds to me like you are uninformed in some areas you really should seriously consider. I leave it up to you as to what you will do about it.}}}
YOU SAID:
Also, I wrote this to brainout to challenge Thieme's false "right pastor" doctrine. So would you kindly tell me what you think of:
Mathew 23: 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
{{{King James:
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
YOU GAVE THIS ALSO:
John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
KING JAMES:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
YOU GAVE:
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
KING JAMES:
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
YOU GAVE:
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
YOU GAVE:
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
KING JAMES:
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
YOU GAVE:
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
KING JAMES:
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
{{{Testy I think it is very clear that RIGHT PASTOR TEACHER is not a true biblical doctrine as Thieme teaches it. }}}
YOU SAID:
CLEARLY THIS IS NOT A "LORDING OVER" GENTILE AUTHORITY, AS ALL HAVE KNOWN GENTILE AUTHORITY.
{{{ I don't understand what Gentiles have to do with Thieme's false teaching of right pastor teachers.....I would have thought that it was clear that I do not think his view of "right pastor teacher" is correct in any language. }}}
YOU SAID:
IF PAUL TEACHES AN AUTHORITY DIFFERENT THAN JESUS, THEN I DISAGREE WITH PAUL.
{{{Testy I never said that. I said that. JESUS HIMSELF, the same Jesus who had spoken to Peter before and after His resurrection, TOLD PAUL WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT IT MEANT. Jesus himself sent Paul away from the Israelite NATION to the Gentiles. If you have read the verses I posted you really should see that. If you accepted JESUS WORDS to Peter, why not accept His subsequent plan and words to PAUL? It should not be a problem unless you do not believe the Word of God starting in Genesis going through Malachi. }}}
YOU SAID:
ALSO, JESUS CALLED PETER THE "ROCK", NOT PAUL.
{{{Right. He was talking to the JEW PETER and His "little flock" of JEWISH FOLLOWERS who WOULD EVENTUALLY INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH. But it was not time! The leadership and the majority of the nation of Israel REJECTED MESSIAH after the Resurrection and also upon Peter's preaching on Pentecost and thereafter. Many individuals among the Jews did see that, they repented, were baptized for the remission of their sins, per Peter's instructions TO THEM, and were added to the flock.
IT WAS THE SAME JESUS who LATER gave Paul instructions to go to the Gentiles with the MYSTERY which had been hidden UNTIL REVEALED BY THAT SAME JESUS TO PAUL and it was that Paul who shared it with PETER. Take in to consideration that time passed and Israel did not respond to the offer of the Kingdom which Peter was inspired to give at Pentecost and also when he healed the lame man at the gate Beautiful of the Temple.
Peter and the Rock have nothing to do with Paul's subsequent message, and Peter later recognized Paul's revelation as authoritative calling it SCRIPTURE. By that time Peter certainly realized that his nation was not going to recognize its guilt in crucifying its Messiah nor its failure to repent its unbelief and sin in this matter and BECAUSE OF THAT UNBELIEF, THE OFFER OF THE KINGDOM was SUSPENDED.
God told Paul about HIS SECRET PLAN TO GO TO THE GENTILES in spite of Israel's refusal to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah and thence according to prophecy become the vehicle for God's blessing of the nations of the earth, which was part of the Kingdom of God on earth, with Jesus ruling the whole earth and all its nations from Jerusalem, WITH THE TWELVE APOSTLES SITTING ON TWELVE THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES of Israel.
God has POSTPONED His Kingdom on Earth plan and this pause has lasted for what, two thousand years now? During this time, God offers ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME the forgiveness and life needed to be what God intended in this life and the next. }}}
YOU SAID:
ALSO I AM A BIT SKEPTICAL AS TO WHY PAUL RAN TO THE ROMAN SOLDIERS FOR HELP, INSTEAD OF STANDING HIS GROUND AND CALLING FOR GOD'S HELP INSTEAD. WHERE WAS PAUL'S VISION THEN?
{{{Please show me what you are referring to before I answer you on this.
Now I fear I will be rebuked for "proselytizing" by the moderator, but I really can't answer your questions without saying these things. A very careful reading of Acts in a sound English translation will reveal lots that you may never have seen before. But the Scriptures themselves say it takes a spiritual man to understand spiritual things, and only you can decide if you qualify. If your opinons are truly those expressed on the History Channel forum, my guess is that after refuting Thieme your next task is to reconsider them. You can use all kinds of things such as Dr. Wall's dissertation to refute Thieme, and we all know his faithful won't listen to it. But it would be sad if Thieme was keeping you from exploring even more important things.
I am not entirely sure what the problem is with these things in light of the Scriptures or how this is related to Thieme. Please help me understand if I still have not answered your questions. It is entirely possible I am being dense. I was so wrong for so long, I don't put it past me to be wrong again, and I will cheerfully admit it if proven so by Scripture to my satisfaction. This might be a case of "agreeing to disagree." But we agree about RBT jr.
ALSO TESTY, I might have screwed up the order of things in your post and my answers. So please excuse my poor vision which might have caused me to miss something or get things out of order.
I am learning to take BIG DOSES OF SCRIPTURE with my commentaries if you get my drift. I no longer depend upon any one man for his opinion and there is lots of room here to agree to disagree.
But in no way do I agree with Thieme's RIGHT PASTOR TEACHER teacing. It is indeed THE DIOTREPHES SYNDROME in my opinion. WE DO KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT we have NOT MISUNDERSTOOD him and we are telling the truth about his message and manner. It is the FAITHFUL who have demonstrated over and over again IN THIS FORUM that THEY do not understand US or what we are saying, because it IS NOT APPROVED BY THIEME. }}}
Sincerely,
Sistersoap
TRUTHTESTY
My comments back to you are in {{{xxx}}} below.
YOU SAID:
I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US corporations who do business day to day with Communist China (ie. sending American jobs overseas, Walmart, etc...). I wonder what Schwarz would say today about the US government borrowing money from Communist China to the point where Communist China now holds 9% all of US Foreign debt. If Communist China demanded it's money today, it would send the US economy into a tailspin.
{{{I feel sure he would say it is an unwise policy, but he would also stick to what he saw as his God given mission: to teach the truth about Communism and to show from their own literature what they ALWAYS do and how they do it. On other issues I am sure he would have had a very interesting opinion!}}}
YOU SAID:
Communist China and Japan are the leading lenders for the USA, Communist China being the leader over Japan. That's not the Pope doing that, that is corporations and the current US government's foreign policy.
{{{Yes and our gov't is very unwise to follow its policies. We will undoubtedly suffer for it greatly. I still think the Pope has more influence on WORLD economic events than is generally believed, after all his church IS ALSO A STATE that sends and receives ambassadors, AND the Papacy takes great credit to itself for creating conditions allowing the Iron Curtain to fall and economic communism in Eastern Europe to implode.}}}
YOU SAID:
Is the Catholic Church cultic, yes it is. Are there honest truth seeking christians in the Catholic Church? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking christians at Berachah? Yes, there are. Are there honest truth seeking Protestants? Yes. No one knows all. However, I would be very interested if you could show the original manuscripts written by each of the Apostles writers. That would probably end a lot of debate.
{{{We don't need the "original manuscripts" we have accurate copies and it is not Vaticanus and Sinaiaticus of Westcott and Hort fame. Go to BIBLE FOR TODAY and the DEAN BURGON SOCIETY web sites for more information and do research to get the "other side" of the story. You sure won't see or hear it on the History Channel or any other TV channel. But you CAN find REASONABLE proof that would stand up in a court of law to trust the sound manuscripts passed down with care and devotion from one generation to the next. I can't tell you more than that in just one post. Do some reading on it. Check out those who do believe we still have God's Words because HE PROMISED TO PRESERVE THEM TO ALL GENERATIONS. I am sure you have heard "the other" side, that of the skeptics and unbelievers. You feel comfortable consulting and citing Dr.Waite to refute Thieme, now it is perhaps time to read what he has to say on Bible manuscripts and their transmission for yourself. :) }}}
YOU SAID:
You pointed out that I said:
"SO IF THERE IS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN WHAT JESUS SAYS AND WHAT PAUL SAYS, WELL JESUS WINS THAT DEBATE HANDS DOWN."
I think the key word here is "IF". To me it only makes sense to take the Word(s) of Jesus as number 1. It makes no sense to me to accept what is contrary to what Jesus said.
{{{Well Testy, if you don't accept that it was JESUS who LATER gave PAUL his message AFTER Israel as a Nation rejected him after his resurrection, what else is there to talk about on this subject? you can call a halt if you want to all divine revelation after the Gospels, but God did not do that. We are to follow the latest orders given us, and that was through Paul's epistles. There is a DIFFERENCE in what Peter said and what Paul said, and Jesus said things in the Gospels that He later instructed Paul differently about BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL INTENDED RECIPIENTS of the Gospel events, the Jews at that time, refused to acknowledge the facts of their Messiah's coming, His life, His death, and His resurrection, with the prophetic intent to establish the Promised Kingdom of God on earth. When the humans involved in Israel's leadership and thence the majority of the population of Israel at that time decided to CONTINUE TO REJECT MESSIAH, Jesus raised up Paul, BOTH a Jew and a Roman born to give a new message, the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.
All this is helpful to me because it makes much more sense than the teaching of Thieme on these subjects.
I won't argue these facts. Just do some research IN THE BIBLE itself and seek others who DO believe we have a valid preserved divine revelation from God. If we do not, and that is what the History Channel evidently contends, we are toast anyway and none of this matters a whit. But they don't know everything, and what they leave out is EXTREMELY SIGNIFICANT. it sounds to me like you are uninformed in some areas you really should seriously consider. I leave it up to you as to what you will do about it.}}}
YOU SAID:
Also, I wrote this to brainout to challenge Thieme's false "right pastor" doctrine. So would you kindly tell me what you think of:
Mathew 23: 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
{{{King James:
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
YOU GAVE THIS ALSO:
John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
KING JAMES:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
YOU GAVE:
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
KING JAMES:
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
YOU GAVE:
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
YOU GAVE:
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
KING JAMES:
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
YOU GAVE:
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
KING JAMES:
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
{{{Testy I think it is very clear that RIGHT PASTOR TEACHER is not a true biblical doctrine as Thieme teaches it. }}}
YOU SAID:
CLEARLY THIS IS NOT A "LORDING OVER" GENTILE AUTHORITY, AS ALL HAVE KNOWN GENTILE AUTHORITY.
{{{ I don't understand what Gentiles have to do with Thieme's false teaching of right pastor teachers.....I would have thought that it was clear that I do not think his view of "right pastor teacher" is correct in any language. }}}
YOU SAID:
IF PAUL TEACHES AN AUTHORITY DIFFERENT THAN JESUS, THEN I DISAGREE WITH PAUL.
{{{Testy I never said that. I said that. JESUS HIMSELF, the same Jesus who had spoken to Peter before and after His resurrection, TOLD PAUL WHAT TO SAY AND WHAT IT MEANT. Jesus himself sent Paul away from the Israelite NATION to the Gentiles. If you have read the verses I posted you really should see that. If you accepted JESUS WORDS to Peter, why not accept His subsequent plan and words to PAUL? It should not be a problem unless you do not believe the Word of God starting in Genesis going through Malachi. }}}
YOU SAID:
ALSO, JESUS CALLED PETER THE "ROCK", NOT PAUL.
{{{Right. He was talking to the JEW PETER and His "little flock" of JEWISH FOLLOWERS who WOULD EVENTUALLY INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH. But it was not time! The leadership and the majority of the nation of Israel REJECTED MESSIAH after the Resurrection and also upon Peter's preaching on Pentecost and thereafter. Many individuals among the Jews did see that, they repented, were baptized for the remission of their sins, per Peter's instructions TO THEM, and were added to the flock.
IT WAS THE SAME JESUS who LATER gave Paul instructions to go to the Gentiles with the MYSTERY which had been hidden UNTIL REVEALED BY THAT SAME JESUS TO PAUL and it was that Paul who shared it with PETER. Take in to consideration that time passed and Israel did not respond to the offer of the Kingdom which Peter was inspired to give at Pentecost and also when he healed the lame man at the gate Beautiful of the Temple.
Peter and the Rock have nothing to do with Paul's subsequent message, and Peter later recognized Paul's revelation as authoritative calling it SCRIPTURE. By that time Peter certainly realized that his nation was not going to recognize its guilt in crucifying its Messiah nor its failure to repent its unbelief and sin in this matter and BECAUSE OF THAT UNBELIEF, THE OFFER OF THE KINGDOM was SUSPENDED.
God told Paul about HIS SECRET PLAN TO GO TO THE GENTILES in spite of Israel's refusal to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah and thence according to prophecy become the vehicle for God's blessing of the nations of the earth, which was part of the Kingdom of God on earth, with Jesus ruling the whole earth and all its nations from Jerusalem, WITH THE TWELVE APOSTLES SITTING ON TWELVE THRONES JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES of Israel.
God has POSTPONED His Kingdom on Earth plan and this pause has lasted for what, two thousand years now? During this time, God offers ANYONE, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME the forgiveness and life needed to be what God intended in this life and the next. }}}
YOU SAID:
ALSO I AM A BIT SKEPTICAL AS TO WHY PAUL RAN TO THE ROMAN SOLDIERS FOR HELP, INSTEAD OF STANDING HIS GROUND AND CALLING FOR GOD'S HELP INSTEAD. WHERE WAS PAUL'S VISION THEN?
{{{Please show me what you are referring to before I answer you on this.
Now I fear I will be rebuked for "proselytizing" by the moderator, but I really can't answer your questions without saying these things. A very careful reading of Acts in a sound English translation will reveal lots that you may never have seen before. But the Scriptures themselves say it takes a spiritual man to understand spiritual things, and only you can decide if you qualify. If your opinons are truly those expressed on the History Channel forum, my guess is that after refuting Thieme your next task is to reconsider them. You can use all kinds of things such as Dr. Wall's dissertation to refute Thieme, and we all know his faithful won't listen to it. But it would be sad if Thieme was keeping you from exploring even more important things.
I am not entirely sure what the problem is with these things in light of the Scriptures or how this is related to Thieme. Please help me understand if I still have not answered your questions. It is entirely possible I am being dense. I was so wrong for so long, I don't put it past me to be wrong again, and I will cheerfully admit it if proven so by Scripture to my satisfaction. This might be a case of "agreeing to disagree." But we agree about RBT jr.
ALSO TESTY, I might have screwed up the order of things in your post and my answers. So please excuse my poor vision which might have caused me to miss something or get things out of order.
I am learning to take BIG DOSES OF SCRIPTURE with my commentaries if you get my drift. I no longer depend upon any one man for his opinion and there is lots of room here to agree to disagree.
But in no way do I agree with Thieme's RIGHT PASTOR TEACHER teacing. It is indeed THE DIOTREPHES SYNDROME in my opinion. WE DO KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT we have NOT MISUNDERSTOOD him and we are telling the truth about his message and manner. It is the FAITHFUL who have demonstrated over and over again IN THIS FORUM that THEY do not understand US or what we are saying, because it IS NOT APPROVED BY THIEME. }}}
Sincerely,
Sistersoap
TRUTHTESTY
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: August 26, 2007 11:00AM
Hi Sister:
I don't see much difference between the KJV and YLT, do you? If you know something about the YLT that I should know, would you let me know? So I will ask you again, what do you think of the authority structure laid out clearly by Jesus, in the verses from my last post?
Truthtesty
I don't see much difference between the KJV and YLT, do you? If you know something about the YLT that I should know, would you let me know? So I will ask you again, what do you think of the authority structure laid out clearly by Jesus, in the verses from my last post?
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: August 26, 2007 12:42PM
You asked me what I thought about the authority structure you laid out. All I saw was some Bible verses. What is the YLT? Never heard of it.
As for what authority we are to be under TODAY, that is what JESUS TOLD PAUL TO GIVE US. Peter's place is with the TWELVE who will eventually rule on 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel with Christ on the Literal throne of David in literal Jerusalem when JESUS RETURNS.
Until then, the prophetic program for Israel is in abeyance. To insist that we much follow Jesus instructions to Peter to give to the Jews of THAT DAY AND THAT TIME is to ignore the same Jesus' FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS which came to us when Israel and its program has been set aside. To be sure, God will eventually fulfill every promise He ever made to them.
Our authority today is to follow the instructions Jesus gave Paul to give us in his epistles. We should not blindly obey what Jesus told Peter when He gave LATER INSTRUCTIONS which in some cases disagree with what Peter told the Jews to do then.
NONE of it allows for R.B.THieme's right pastor teacher beliefs.
YOU SAID:
Also, I wrote this to brainout to challenge Thieme's false "right pastor" doctrine. So would you kindly tell me what you think of:
Mathew 23: 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
I QUOTE FROM THE King James:
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
{{{ALL YE ARE BRETHREN....as the King of the Jews, Jesus is preaching TO JEWS concerning their behavior in the coming Kingdom of God on Earth, which was still AT HAND when He spoke these words, The "clergy-laity" separation mentality is not Biblical. All are equally important and some have been gifted to do certain tasks. But nobody who consistently berates other Christians as idiots, fools, jerks, and so forth ought to be permitted to continue doing that by HIS CHRISTIAN BRETHREN, But Thieme gets away with it because of privacy issues. How convenient.}}}
YOU GAVE THIS ALSO:
John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
KING JAMES:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
{{{One fold is for the Kingdom of God on Earth with Christ ruling on the Throne of David. THat has not happened yet. It was postponed. The point being I suppose that since Jesus said ONE FOLD there is no authorization for denominational distinctions. I am not sure what this is supposed to prove in relation to Thieme. It certainly does not give him carte blanche to do what he wants with "his flock." Fortunately his sins are under the blood of Christ just as ours are. Having personally trusted the Lord Jesus for his salvation, Thieme will be in heaven and if we meet him there we won't have to worry about the past problems. I suspect it will be so wonderful that all this stuff will fade quickly. For all of us who are there. I don't agree with denominations but they are a reality of Christian life today. I don't attend such a group. I left the Presbyterians long ago because they left the Word of God. Since then I have not had to attend a denominational gathering. The one flock of today, if you want to call it that, is THE BODY OF CHRIST, which Peter was not part of. Paul is the Apostle for us today, and for any Jew or Gentile who chooses to believe what Jesus told Paul to preach: the gospel of the grace of God. Peter did not preach this in Acts. Jesus was dealing with Israel as a nation. That flock has a prophetic destiny on the earth. The Body of Christ is all who trust Jesus to save them by believing the gospel Paul received FROM JESUS.
Our authority is the Word of God which is addressed to us today. Paul's epistles are God's latest instructions TO US. We read others' instructions with attention, respect, interest, and profit, but if there is something we are told to do there which has been REVISED in Paul's epistles, then we choose to obey what our Commander Jesus told US to do. That is our authority when deciding what we are or are not to do now.
This does not give Thieme or anyone else the right to tell anyone that HE IS THE ONE SHEPHERD for them. GOD can tell someone where He wants them to worship. You may listen to whom you please. You can decide if what they say is according to Scripture.
Thieme invented his "right pastor-teacher" role himself. He also may say he is not responsible for what people believe or do with what he teaches, but I don't believe that is right. A man should be held accountable for what he teaches, according to the kind of fruit it bears.The one flock can't be used to justify right pastor. JESUS is the Good Shepherd, not RBTJR.}}}
YOU GAVE:
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
KING JAMES:
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
{{{Right. Peter describes an attitude. Thieme seemed to use a MILITARY model for his church and I think that is unscriptural and inapproprate. That is built on rank and deference. You may RESPECT your pastor but he is not your lord and master.}}}
YOU GAVE:
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
KING JAMES:
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
{{{This again is the Kingdom on Earth model, which did not come to pass. It will someday and all these things Jesus said about it will happen to the letter. I believe Thieme saw his own humility in showing up in the pulpit and preaching what he had studied. Not doing anything else pastors usually do in other churches. In his mind he was SERVING his flock but what worked out to be was he was capturing the flock and putting them in a Thieme built cage mentally by what he taught, feeling free to add and subtract to God's Word. As for an authority structure in these verses it is the structure of the KINGDOM WHEN THE KING, JESUS, PERSONALLY RULES ON EARTH, which He is not doing yet. But the attitude is still valid. }}}
YOU GAVE:
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
KING JAMES:
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
{{{ DIOTREPHES is a perfect model of the Thieme attitude. It is certainly not a good example to follow. John's authority as an APOSTLE died with him and with Peter and the other of the Twelve. There is no passing along of that once for all office. The last Apostle to be appointed was PAUL but he was beheaded before most of the others died. Testy I think it is very clear that RIGHT PASTOR TEACHER is not a true biblical doctrine as Thieme teaches it. I hope I have answered your question.}}}
As for what authority we are to be under TODAY, that is what JESUS TOLD PAUL TO GIVE US. Peter's place is with the TWELVE who will eventually rule on 12 thrones over the 12 tribes of Israel with Christ on the Literal throne of David in literal Jerusalem when JESUS RETURNS.
Until then, the prophetic program for Israel is in abeyance. To insist that we much follow Jesus instructions to Peter to give to the Jews of THAT DAY AND THAT TIME is to ignore the same Jesus' FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS which came to us when Israel and its program has been set aside. To be sure, God will eventually fulfill every promise He ever made to them.
Our authority today is to follow the instructions Jesus gave Paul to give us in his epistles. We should not blindly obey what Jesus told Peter when He gave LATER INSTRUCTIONS which in some cases disagree with what Peter told the Jews to do then.
NONE of it allows for R.B.THieme's right pastor teacher beliefs.
YOU SAID:
Also, I wrote this to brainout to challenge Thieme's false "right pastor" doctrine. So would you kindly tell me what you think of:
Mathew 23: 8 `And ye -- ye may not be called Rabbi, for one is your director -- the Christ, and all ye are brethren; 9 and ye may not call [any] your father on the earth, for one is your Father, who is in the heavens, 10 nor may ye be called directors, for one is your director -- the Christ. 11 And the greater of you shall be your ministrant, 12 and whoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled, and whoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.
I QUOTE FROM THE King James:
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
{{{ALL YE ARE BRETHREN....as the King of the Jews, Jesus is preaching TO JEWS concerning their behavior in the coming Kingdom of God on Earth, which was still AT HAND when He spoke these words, The "clergy-laity" separation mentality is not Biblical. All are equally important and some have been gifted to do certain tasks. But nobody who consistently berates other Christians as idiots, fools, jerks, and so forth ought to be permitted to continue doing that by HIS CHRISTIAN BRETHREN, But Thieme gets away with it because of privacy issues. How convenient.}}}
YOU GAVE THIS ALSO:
John 10:14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, 15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, 16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
KING JAMES:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
{{{One fold is for the Kingdom of God on Earth with Christ ruling on the Throne of David. THat has not happened yet. It was postponed. The point being I suppose that since Jesus said ONE FOLD there is no authorization for denominational distinctions. I am not sure what this is supposed to prove in relation to Thieme. It certainly does not give him carte blanche to do what he wants with "his flock." Fortunately his sins are under the blood of Christ just as ours are. Having personally trusted the Lord Jesus for his salvation, Thieme will be in heaven and if we meet him there we won't have to worry about the past problems. I suspect it will be so wonderful that all this stuff will fade quickly. For all of us who are there. I don't agree with denominations but they are a reality of Christian life today. I don't attend such a group. I left the Presbyterians long ago because they left the Word of God. Since then I have not had to attend a denominational gathering. The one flock of today, if you want to call it that, is THE BODY OF CHRIST, which Peter was not part of. Paul is the Apostle for us today, and for any Jew or Gentile who chooses to believe what Jesus told Paul to preach: the gospel of the grace of God. Peter did not preach this in Acts. Jesus was dealing with Israel as a nation. That flock has a prophetic destiny on the earth. The Body of Christ is all who trust Jesus to save them by believing the gospel Paul received FROM JESUS.
Our authority is the Word of God which is addressed to us today. Paul's epistles are God's latest instructions TO US. We read others' instructions with attention, respect, interest, and profit, but if there is something we are told to do there which has been REVISED in Paul's epistles, then we choose to obey what our Commander Jesus told US to do. That is our authority when deciding what we are or are not to do now.
This does not give Thieme or anyone else the right to tell anyone that HE IS THE ONE SHEPHERD for them. GOD can tell someone where He wants them to worship. You may listen to whom you please. You can decide if what they say is according to Scripture.
Thieme invented his "right pastor-teacher" role himself. He also may say he is not responsible for what people believe or do with what he teaches, but I don't believe that is right. A man should be held accountable for what he teaches, according to the kind of fruit it bears.The one flock can't be used to justify right pastor. JESUS is the Good Shepherd, not RBTJR.}}}
YOU GAVE:
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
KING JAMES:
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
{{{Right. Peter describes an attitude. Thieme seemed to use a MILITARY model for his church and I think that is unscriptural and inapproprate. That is built on rank and deference. You may RESPECT your pastor but he is not your lord and master.}}}
YOU GAVE:
Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
KING JAMES:
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
{{{This again is the Kingdom on Earth model, which did not come to pass. It will someday and all these things Jesus said about it will happen to the letter. I believe Thieme saw his own humility in showing up in the pulpit and preaching what he had studied. Not doing anything else pastors usually do in other churches. In his mind he was SERVING his flock but what worked out to be was he was capturing the flock and putting them in a Thieme built cage mentally by what he taught, feeling free to add and subtract to God's Word. As for an authority structure in these verses it is the structure of the KINGDOM WHEN THE KING, JESUS, PERSONALLY RULES ON EARTH, which He is not doing yet. But the attitude is still valid. }}}
YOU GAVE:
3 John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
KING JAMES:
3Jo 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
{{{ DIOTREPHES is a perfect model of the Thieme attitude. It is certainly not a good example to follow. John's authority as an APOSTLE died with him and with Peter and the other of the Twelve. There is no passing along of that once for all office. The last Apostle to be appointed was PAUL but he was beheaded before most of the others died. Testy I think it is very clear that RIGHT PASTOR TEACHER is not a true biblical doctrine as Thieme teaches it. I hope I have answered your question.}}}
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: August 26, 2007 07:00PM
To Sister:
My sister until recently you have said nothing for what almost a year (09-25-06). Now you have plenty to say. Where have you been?
You said:
I still think the Pope has more influence on WORLD economic events than is generally believed, after all his church IS ALSO A STATE that sends and receives ambassadors, AND the Papacy takes great credit to itself for creating conditions allowing the Iron Curtain to fall and economic communism in Eastern Europe to implode.
My comment:
The Iron Curtain falling would be a "good" thing. If Catholics helped then that would be a good thing also. However, I am more skeptical than you about the USA's motives and involvement in WORLD economic events. I will offer you this (If you click "watch 256k stream" you can watch it like tv) [www.democracynow.org]
The YLT is Young's Literal Translation. The YLT is what Dr. Wall suggested to use. Dr. Waite uses the KJV. Both doctors are graduates from Dallas Theological Seminary. Both, the YLT and the KJV are based off the the "Textus Receptus". Both versions and more can be accessed at www.crosswalk.com
We agree on the Diotrophes syndrome and RBT jr. However, where I am "at" is that the authority structure of christianity in practice has been "wrong" for thousands of years. That's me, not Chafer, not Dr. Wall, nor Waite. Christianity has been twisted and used, as have other religious texts (ie Torah, Koran) and non-religious texts such as Buddhist text, for the manipulation of the masses. Power and control of the masses. I am not sure if you are aware or not of the current media manipulations. Thier most famous move is to present "positive" or "negative" information (as profits dictate) on what corporations (the rich) can benefit from, while censoring the "whole truth". The current media we see today is a dramatic example of how intense the desire is of the rich of whom must manipulate the masses. Before electronic communication and massive paper communication, the "media" manipulation of yesteryear must have been religious texts and catchy songs or psalms. So forgive me for where I am at in my study and skeptical perception of the Apostle Paul. Too me, Pauline christianity is just "too convienient" for the rich people of Imperial Rome to have benefitted from. Perhaps after further study I can find reconciliation. As Chafer said when good scholars disagree sometimes simply not enough has been revealed.
I know this though, it is corrupt man's assumption of authority EQUAL to that of God's authority, which is causing the evil destructive cults within Christianity today. Satan must know this to try to "be like the most high". Satan must assume God's authority. To me, they only authority which can be blindly followed without corruption is that of God's perfect authority, not corrupt man.
Also, I disagree with you on the "original manuscripts" subject. I think they would be most helpful.
Truthtesty
My sister until recently you have said nothing for what almost a year (09-25-06). Now you have plenty to say. Where have you been?
You said:
I still think the Pope has more influence on WORLD economic events than is generally believed, after all his church IS ALSO A STATE that sends and receives ambassadors, AND the Papacy takes great credit to itself for creating conditions allowing the Iron Curtain to fall and economic communism in Eastern Europe to implode.
My comment:
The Iron Curtain falling would be a "good" thing. If Catholics helped then that would be a good thing also. However, I am more skeptical than you about the USA's motives and involvement in WORLD economic events. I will offer you this (If you click "watch 256k stream" you can watch it like tv) [www.democracynow.org]
The YLT is Young's Literal Translation. The YLT is what Dr. Wall suggested to use. Dr. Waite uses the KJV. Both doctors are graduates from Dallas Theological Seminary. Both, the YLT and the KJV are based off the the "Textus Receptus". Both versions and more can be accessed at www.crosswalk.com
We agree on the Diotrophes syndrome and RBT jr. However, where I am "at" is that the authority structure of christianity in practice has been "wrong" for thousands of years. That's me, not Chafer, not Dr. Wall, nor Waite. Christianity has been twisted and used, as have other religious texts (ie Torah, Koran) and non-religious texts such as Buddhist text, for the manipulation of the masses. Power and control of the masses. I am not sure if you are aware or not of the current media manipulations. Thier most famous move is to present "positive" or "negative" information (as profits dictate) on what corporations (the rich) can benefit from, while censoring the "whole truth". The current media we see today is a dramatic example of how intense the desire is of the rich of whom must manipulate the masses. Before electronic communication and massive paper communication, the "media" manipulation of yesteryear must have been religious texts and catchy songs or psalms. So forgive me for where I am at in my study and skeptical perception of the Apostle Paul. Too me, Pauline christianity is just "too convienient" for the rich people of Imperial Rome to have benefitted from. Perhaps after further study I can find reconciliation. As Chafer said when good scholars disagree sometimes simply not enough has been revealed.
I know this though, it is corrupt man's assumption of authority EQUAL to that of God's authority, which is causing the evil destructive cults within Christianity today. Satan must know this to try to "be like the most high". Satan must assume God's authority. To me, they only authority which can be blindly followed without corruption is that of God's perfect authority, not corrupt man.
Also, I disagree with you on the "original manuscripts" subject. I think they would be most helpful.
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: August 27, 2007 02:11AM
To Sister and the Forum:
The closest I have been able to connect Paul's teachings with the obvious divine intention in (Mat 23:8-12, Joh 10:14-16, Mar 10:42-44 (even though Israel failed at that time)) is:
In Ephesians 5:21, we are told by Paul that we are to submit one to another in the fear of God. When elders realize they are not rulers in the sense of an arbitrary ruler, and when members and elders start submitting to each other, we will then see our relationships improving to that which God intended. "
[www.theexaminer.org]
Ephesians was written to ALL the saints at Ephesus. This includes the ELDERS and TEACHERS.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
So the "lord it over" freaks need to keep that in mind when they read Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God"
I say again that Jesus had/has the ultimate authority among men, yet he served all to and through death.
JESUS HIMSELF WAS/IS/WILL BE THE ULTIMATE PERFECT HIGHEST HUMAN AUTHORITY, YET JESUS SERVED ALL IN HIS SUFFERINGS, HIS LIFE, HIS DEATH, AND HIS RESSURECTION.
You have an arguement for dispensations of different timeframes, for man's perspective. However, Jesus' Work I am told, is for the past, present, and future.
IS NOT JESUS HIMSELF A TIME/TIMELESS VALID EXAMPLE OF DIVINELY INTENDED AUTHORITY STRUCTURE?
Also, Sister are you sure you don't want to re-think saying "The one flock of today, if you want to call it that, is THE BODY OF CHRIST, which Peter was not part of."?
For even Paul says (KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "
Truthtesty
The closest I have been able to connect Paul's teachings with the obvious divine intention in (Mat 23:8-12, Joh 10:14-16, Mar 10:42-44 (even though Israel failed at that time)) is:
In Ephesians 5:21, we are told by Paul that we are to submit one to another in the fear of God. When elders realize they are not rulers in the sense of an arbitrary ruler, and when members and elders start submitting to each other, we will then see our relationships improving to that which God intended. "
[www.theexaminer.org]
Ephesians was written to ALL the saints at Ephesus. This includes the ELDERS and TEACHERS.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
So the "lord it over" freaks need to keep that in mind when they read Ephesians 5:21 "Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God"
I say again that Jesus had/has the ultimate authority among men, yet he served all to and through death.
JESUS HIMSELF WAS/IS/WILL BE THE ULTIMATE PERFECT HIGHEST HUMAN AUTHORITY, YET JESUS SERVED ALL IN HIS SUFFERINGS, HIS LIFE, HIS DEATH, AND HIS RESSURECTION.
You have an arguement for dispensations of different timeframes, for man's perspective. However, Jesus' Work I am told, is for the past, present, and future.
IS NOT JESUS HIMSELF A TIME/TIMELESS VALID EXAMPLE OF DIVINELY INTENDED AUTHORITY STRUCTURE?
Also, Sister are you sure you don't want to re-think saying "The one flock of today, if you want to call it that, is THE BODY OF CHRIST, which Peter was not part of."?
For even Paul says (KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. "
Truthtesty
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