SynergyCon,

You can learn about the general characteristics of abusive group leader/s in the pdf document:-

[www.4shared.com]

(pages A-M)

SynergyCon,

I guess you are just choosing to ignore the different shades of description and all the documentation that has been provided here and elsewhere that demonstrates the cultish elements of the Thiemite system. Some here think it is a cult, others think it has cultish elements to it. I believe that it has very harmful, cultish elements to it but I don't think it is a cult. My wife, and others, especially on this board think the Thiemite system has become a full fledged cult.

Orangeperuviscacha, linked to ton of information that demonstrates clearly where the cultish elements come into play.

The doctrine of "right pastor" is popish and cultish by anyone's standards, except those involved in such systems.

As I told someone else, when Christians read the Scriptures, even new believers, they don't become: Thiemites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormans, Arians, etc. Interestingly enough they learn God's moral commands and discover that God encourages Christians to go to church and serve one another. Imagine that.

I found a good checklist too, from www.carm.org, it is a checklist that may be used to evaluate groups to see if they have cultish elements to them. Get enough of these checked and it should give one pause for concern:

Applying these to the Thiemite system:

---------------BEGIN------------------
1. What is a cult?
1. Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of new ideas. (yes, all)
1. New Teaching - has a new theology and doctrine. (yes, Thieme often had theological "breakthroughs")
2. Only True Teaching - often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth. (yes)
3. Strong Leadership - often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group’s teachings and practices. (yes)
4. Asset Acquirement - (no)
5. Isolationist - to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally. (all but financially)
6. Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening lose of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination. (yes, all but loss of salvation)
7. Indoctrination - possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented. (yes, all)
8. Apocalyptic - to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it. (yes, Russian invasion, Muslim hord invasion, etc)
9. Experience - various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases, and ‘spiritual’ enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth. (no, debatable)

10. Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution. (yes)
2. Many have a non-verifiable belief systems
1. For example, they would teach something that cannot be verified. (yes)
2. Often, the philosophy makes sense only if you adopt the full set of values and definitions that it teaches. (yes)
-. With this kind of belief, truth becomes unverifiable, internalized, and easily manipulated through the philosophical systems of its inventor.
3. The Leader of a Cult
1. Often charismatic who is considered very special for varying reasons:
1. The leader has received special revelation from God.
2. The leader claims to be the incarnation of a deity, angel, or special messenger.
3. The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission
4. The leader claims to have special abilities (yes)
2. The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted. (yes)
4. Cult ethos
1. Usually seek to do good works, otherwise no one would join them. (no)
2. They are usually moral and possess a good standard of ethical teaching. (no)
3. Many times the Bible is used or additional "scriptures" are penned. (no)
1. The Bible, when used, is always distorted with private interpretations. (yes)
4. Many Cults recruit Jesus as one of their own and redefine him accordingly (no)
5. Cult groups vary greatly.
1. From the ascetic to the promiscuous. (yes, promiscuous)
2. From esoteric knowledge to very simple teachings. (yes, esoteric)
3. From the rich and power to the poor and weak.
2. Who is vulnerable to joining a cult?
1. Everyone is vulnerable.
1. Rich, poor, educated, non-educated, old, young, previously religious, atheistic, etc.
2. General Profile of cult member (some or all of the following)
1. Disenchanted with conventional religious establishments.
2. Intellectually confused over religious and/or philosophical issues
3. Sometimes disenchanted with society as a whole
4. Has a need for encouragement and support
5. Emotionally needful
6. Needs a sense of purpose.
7. Financially needful
3. Recruitment techniques
1. They find a need and fill it. One of the ways they do this is called
1. "Love Bombing" - Constant positive affection in word and deed. (no)
1. Sometimes there is a lot of physical contact like hugging, pats on the back, and touching. (no)
2. Cult group members will lend emotional support to someone in need. (no)
3. Help them in various ways...whatever is needed. (no)
1. The person then becomes indebted to the cult.
4. Compliment them, reassure them, and make them the center of attention.
2. Many Cults use the influence of the Bible and/or mention Jesus as being one of their own; thereby adding validity to their system. (yes)
1. Scripture twisting (yes)
1. Those that use the Bible take verses out of context (yes)
2. Then mix their misinterpreted verses with their aberrant philosophy. (yes)
3. Gradualism
1. Slow altering of thinking processes and belief system through repeated teaching (yes)
1. People usually accept cult doctrines one point at a time. (yes)
2. New beliefs are reinforced by other cult members.
4. Why would someone join?
1. The cult satisfies various needs:
1. Psychological - Someone could have a weak personality, easily lead.
2. Emotional - Someone could have recently suffered an emotional trauma
3. Intellectual - Someone has questions that this group answers.
2. The cult gives them approval, acceptance, purpose, and a sense of belonging.
3. The cult is appealing for some reason. It could be . . .
1. Moral rigidity and purity
2. Financial security
3. Promises of exaltation, redemption, higher consciousness, or a host of other rewards. (yes)
5. How are they kept in the cult?
1. Dependence (yes)
1. People often want to stay because the cult meets their psychological, intellectual, and spiritual needs. (yes)
2. Isolation
1. Outside contacts are reduced and more and more of the life of the member is built around the cult. (yes)
2. It then becomes very easy to control and shape the member.
3. Cognitive Reconstruction (Brainwashing):
1. Once the person is indoctrinated, their thinking processes are reconstructed to be consistent with the cult and to be submissive to its leaders. (yes)
2. This facilitates control by the cult leader(s).
4. Substitution
1. The Cult and cult leaders often take the place of mother, father, priest, teacher, and healer.
2. Often the member takes on the characteristics of a dependent child seeking to win the approval of the leader and or group.
5. Indebtedness
1. The member becomes indebted to the group emotionally, financially, etc.
6. Guilt
1. The person is told that to leave is to betray the leader, God, the group, etc. (yes)
2. The person is told that leave would mean to reject the love and help the group has given.
7. Threat
1. Threat of destruction by God for turning from the truth. (yes)
2. Sometimes physical threat is used, though not often. (yes, Thieme often said, come see me after class and mentioned his "boxing", etc)
3. Threat of missing the apocalypse, or being judged on judgment day, etc. (yes, loss of "rewards")
6. How do you get them out?
1. The best thing is to try not to let them get trapped in the first place.
2. If you are a Christian, then pray.
3. But, to get a person out of a cult takes
1. Time, energy, and support.
4. Teach them the truth.
1. Give them a true replacement for their aberrant belief system
2. Show the cult group's philosophic inconsistencies
3. Study the group and learn its history seeking clues and information.
5. Try and get them physically away from the cult group.
6. Give them the support they need emotionally.
7. Alleviate the threat that if they leave the group they are doomed or in danger.
8. Generally, don't attack the leader of the group...that comes later.
9. Converts often feel a loyalty and respect for the founder of the group.
10. Confront them when needed.

---------------END------------------

There are an awful lot of yeses that are checked there for the Thiemite system. Yes, there are a few items which your average church could be checked for but the Thiemite system, when evaluated objectively, is able to check yes for so many of those items that it should give one pause for concern.

We are not talking about simple theological differences among brothers, we are talking about some very bad theology and cultish behavior that should be avoided and has been made an integral part of the Thiemite system.

Again, Christians who read Scripture, even new Christians, are able to discern the gospel, learn God's moral law and standards of conduct for believers, and are taught among many other things, to find a local church to be apart of, to participate in service and receive the means of grace for believers (the preached word, corporate worship, the Lord's supper), etc.

Where do you now attend church?

Chris

Thiemite:

Thanks for the post. I really appreciate it.

The site I was referring to was also carm.org. However, it has been awhile since I have visited that site, and I was unable to find the checklist. Thanks again for the cult checklist you sent me. I agree with some of the “yes” answers of yours, but one could argue that they could apply to many pastors.

In searching for my checklist on carm.org, I stumbled upon a Basic Christian Doctrine checklist on carm.org. There are 40 questions. I did the same thing you did with yes/no answers to the questions re: Thieme. The result was 40-0 that Thieme preaches Basic Christian Doctrine. Feel free to apply the test yourselves at carm.org

If a Morman, Muslim, Jehovah Witness, Scientologist, Calvinist, and many others took the Basic Christian Doctrine test none of them would score a perfect 40.

So the question I have is how is Thieme thrown in with these people? I believe as does the carm.org author that if Basic sound Christian Doctrine is practiced, then a church cannot be called a cult.

I again go back to my argument that it is either heresy, or idolatry.

People on this forum keep referring to two big things when it comes to Thieme. The blood of Jesus, and the right pastor. Lets look at both.

The blood of Jesus. If I understand Thieme, he is only saying that the blood itself is a metaphor for Jesus dying for us. That we are saved by Jesus dying, and not the actual blood itself. How is this not a theological question in lieu of cult labeling?

The right pastor: 1 Thessalonians Chp 5 verse 12 “ But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction.” What exactly does Paul mean when he says those that have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction? Does this support the right pastor teachings? Heresy? Cult leader?

I wish someone on this forum would address the idolatry question. Does anyone get how goofy people in this country are with idolatry? I live in Pittsburgh, Pa. There are people here who literally have Steeler shrines in their houses. There are people here who are so obsessed with the Steelers that everything else in their lives is secondary. Has anyone ever been to Graceland? Elvis has been dead for 30 years, and still the idolatry continues. How about Lady Di? She has been dead for almost 10 years.

How is it not possible that Thieme’s congregation suffers from severe idolatry? My guess is that most of these “Thiemites” are female. It happens everywhere, Boss – secretary, pilot – flight attendant, doctor – nurse, etc. Woman somehow gravitate to men who hold a higher position than them. It may start innocently, then the next thing you know it’s full blown idolatry. Has anyone ever been to a rock concert where the entire band members were all male? Have you ever seen the girls there? What they attempt to do just to touch one of the band members?

I really do appreciate every post on this forum, all it can do is help each Christian with his or her journey if taken in the proper context. I am not out to prove anything, just give a view from how I see things, and if I help anyone in his or her journey, then that is good.

I don’t believe that a pastor who is rooted in basic Bible doctrine can be labeled a cult leader. If there are theological questions, then at the worst heresy should be the label. If his church members act like cult members, that does not make him a cult leader. Again, for the fiftieth time would someone on hear please be open to the possibility that it is just a case of idolatry.

Thanks, look forward to hearing from someone.

If a husband left the church and instructed his wife to also leave does Thieme support that the husband has the God given right to exercise authority over the wife? Husband wants wife to attend a different fellowship with him and the children.
Wife's parent(s) are trying to instruct wife to ignore husband's wishes.

If someone can help me find information I would greatly appreciate it.

Hi Searching for Truth:

I don’t have the time to reference scriptures in my statement right now, but I will let you know what I have been taught. (Remember to always have someone back what they say with scripture when seeking advice)

A husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church. It is to be an unconditional love just as Christ’s love for us is unconditional. The husband is to provide a spiritual covering to the wife. The wife is to honor her husband.

Therefore, my understanding, and what I am taught is that yes, your wife is to honor your instructions to attend a different church.

My guess is that your wife, and wife’s parents will say that your wife has to obey God first, and you second. While this statement is true I believe it is abused when the wife chooses to not honor her husband.

Moreover, your wife’s parents should have no say whatsoever on what you decide is best for your family.

It will probably turn into a debate on which church really preaches the true word of God, etc. This in all likelihood is what your wife’s parents might attempt to do. I live in the Northeast, and tradition is a hard thing when it comes to this subject here.

I can’t speak for Thieme on this question, but I would find it hard to believe that a pastor would get in the way of a wife following her husband to another church that is rooted in the word of God.

May God be with you

Thiemite:

Thank you for your check list on cults. I noticed on #5--Cult groups vary greatly-- #1, From the ascetic to the promiscuous, you answered, "yes, promiscuous". Can you explain why you answered in this way?

and learn herself and that she *needs* Thieme to teach her. That she will dry up anywhere else. That leaving the church is not a spiritual option and that daily study with the church leaders is expected for her growth.
Husband's church teaches but also expects individuals to read and study themselves, read and memorize, read and meditate, read and pray without the direct input of a teacher all the time. Do you get the emphasis on read read read??
Wife says she needs to listen to teaching and read the books but is NOT AT ALL encouraged by the 'church' to read the Bible for herself. She is not wise enough, she is *unable* to discern God's true meaning...... this is what she learned AT THIEME'S CHURCH!!!
Husband's church teaches that the Spirit of God is given to every believer and that through prayer and dilligent searching and study of Scripture a believer may find direction in God's Word. That God's Word and Spirit are strong enough to overcome any faulty translation and that learning Greek and Hebrew can be beneficial when trying to unravel some passages. That as believers find fellowship with other believers they are strengthened by the sharpening of iron on iron to work toward a more Christ-like life. That thay are commanded to teach their children and to disciple others in the faith and to encourage and exhort other believers to godly lifestyles and actions. That they are to minister to the body of Christ and share their God given talents as part of a church family.
Wife has been told to stay away from others in order to stay pure. "Don't talk--just walk".
Patient and loving husband needs concrete evidence that Thieme's teachings are NOT along the line of Scripture. That God wants us to be not just hearers but doers also. That God wants us to encourage each other. That God would never condem her for following her God given spiritual head of her family. That God loves her and wants a personal relationship with her--not just an ear in an MP3 player for an hour or two each day listening to someone else instead of reading His Word and praying to Him directly.
Wife is deceived. Says husband is not enlightened.
Please--any help in finding answers. Thieme's answers are circular reasoning that just boil down to 'husband does not understand the truth'.

SearchingForTruth,

What you are describing seems like a classic case of the psychological trap spun by a group leader and its hold on the member/s.

Download the 4shared link listed a few posts back, and it may give you some answers.

Searching,

Welcome brother.

I'm in the exact same position. You can not argue with circular logic, I've tried.

Other than praying really hard about it, might I suggest that it would be best if the father and mother present a united front to the children.
Suggest, what will it hurt once a month (start there) attending the church with the family, that way she can point out any 'bible doctrine errors' afterword. I would also suggest that you speak with the elders of your church and tell them what is going on, it will help. See if you can get her involved with any of your church activities, even if it means just helping out in the nursery, very very non-threating to a thiemite.

If you can get her that far you will be at great place. I'm assuming the husband did not know how deep the Theime rabbit hole went when he got married?

Prayer and patience, and remember that the children must see all of this coming from a view of love.

There are resources in Houston, as well as other men in your shoes. NO WORRIES, put it in prayer.

Synergy, when a Shepard speaks ill of his brothers (Thieme calling all others ministers a bunch of Jack*ss's) as well as telling his flock that they are too stupid to read the bible themselves, he is inviting idolatry into his church. I've been to this church, have you? The walls are lined with photos of guess who...BOB THIEME, not just one or two, but at least 20! This wasn't his home, the CHURCH is a shrine to Bob Thieme, and if you really knew about how terrible this ministry is, you would not be making the statements your making.

Let me put it this way, if you listen/attend this ministry, you would be told also: YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO READ THE BIBLE BY YOURSELF! How does that equate to a bunch of women fawning over a movie star?

Putting Bob Thieme and his ministry in a cult form is the absolute right thing to do, this is a personality cult with a facade of a studying church, don't be fooled by his false intellectualism, he's not really that scholarly.