Zams--

Perhaps I am not being as clear as I should be. So I will comment on your post of 09/09 line by line. The Great Depression is not a piece of the puzzle I am leaving out. I realize that it must have diminished the wealth in the Thieme family, which resided with Thieme's grandfaather, not his father. He said in his will that he had given substantial financial support to his son RBT Sr. That money allowed Thieme's father to rent a home on South Rodeo Dr. which was in an upper-middle class neighborhood at the time. On ancestry.com you can see that his nearest neighbors included an adjustor for a fire insurance co., an insurance agent, a statistician for a broker, an investor, an owner of a grocery, a salesman of wholesale produce, a physician, and a real estate broker. This does not sound like the elitist part of society, but certainly upper- middle class.

So it is true that Thieme's immediate family had access to wealth, although I don't think it is " very clear the Thieme family was extremely wealthy" at all. Normally if you are extremely wealthy, you don't rent the house, you buy it. When Thieme's grandfather died his father was cut out of the will, so there was no inheritance for him. Bear in mind that Thieme's father continued working in the same job as a water purifier salesman until his death.

Regardless of the privileged life Thieme led as a child, by the time he was a student at the University of Arizona, his father, who was divorcing his mother, filed a court document that said he had very few assets--" automobiles, furniture and fixtures, linens, rugs and silverware, and [b:7dd9ef6d86]NO OTHER PROPERTY" He said he was agreeable to divide the property in any manner acceptable to his wife or agreeable to the Court. So I assume after the divorce he was left with approximately half of his stated assets, which I'm sure you will agree was very, very little. You wrote " We don't know how much money Thieme's father had waiting as an inheritance." Is it a likely possibility that remaining in his job as a salesman, he amassed a sizable estate in the next 6 years when Thieme entered the Seminary to become a pastor? That is when Thieme says he was disinherited. Twenty years after his divorce, Thieme's father died, living in a very modest little home- not having a will, and his estate not going through probate. To think that somehow he really did have money which he might have given away to his daughter before his death seems a tremendous stretch. Also , any savings a person had at death would go through probate. I am not speculating or "gossiping". I am simply looking at the facts, and they contradict what Thieme has said.

You mention that you think Hunt's book should have included interviews to corroborate the records. As you know Thieme is in his late 80's so who could you find to interview? Would their memories be more accurate than the records? And more importantly would they contribute unbiased information? You suggest that a good biographer would interview several people, then compare their stories, and "weed out what might be true and what might be false". In the weeding out process wouldn't you really be assuming and speculating at that point? I think Hunt tried to avoid making arbitrary decisions. I think all the records gathered together do corroborate each other. For example, the 1930 census that revealed the Thiemes rented a home instead of owning one, the grandfather's will that said RBT Sr. had been receiving financial aid, the filing in the divorce settlement that stated RBT SR's meager assets, the lack of a will and probate when Thieme's father died in a humble home-- these all comfirm that there was not a sizeable estate for Thieme to be disinherited from.

But this issue is only one example of Thieme's fabrications. Hunt's book reveals other discrepencies such as his football and boxing experience, his military service, his education, etc. Each time Thieme greatly distorted the truth for the purpose of self- aggrandizement. That made people look up to him, admire him, and give him more authority and power to teach his doctrines.

I have witnessed the inestimable damage he has done to many of my family members and others. They feel inferior to Thieme and unworthy to debate his theology because they haven't had his years of formal education or knowledge of the Greek language. There have been so many times I have tried to reason the Scriptures with them, but they see everything through the distorted mind set of right man- right woman, rebound, reversionism, super grace, etc. etc. But Hunt's book has given them pause. I am praying they will at long last hear the Holy Spirit saying " Thieme just a man and what he says is not always true."

I have been so greatly encouraged and blessed by reading the testimony and enlightened understanding of Truthtesty, Juker, and Spiritual Liberty. I haven't read them all yet. God's Word certainly has the power to set all men free and untangle the Devil's web of lies. What a gift we have in the Holy Spirit who will lead us into the truth.[/b:7dd9ef6d86]

MsR07,

When I was first challenged about things I said, that I had learned from Thieme, I turned to the Bible. Thank God. My first intent was to prove to the person that challenged me, that I was right. I read many things in the Bible that challenged what Thieme taught and out-right contradicted Thieme. It was a very trying time but God led me through it. I would recommend that you do the same thing, read your Bible, it will change and strengthen you. Search the Scriptures and don't overlook things in the Scriptures that challenge or contradict Thieme (Romans 3:4, Proverbs 3:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:19-24). The most important thing is to actually read your Bible. People don’t become Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Arians, etc, by reading the Bible. They become those things, like Thiemites, by studying exclusively, or almost exclusively, or mostly, the materials of the organization or of their particular teacher. Test every church by the clear teachings of Scripture and you’ll be OK. Spend most of your spiritual study time in the Scriptures and in prayer.

If you are at home and under your parents authority remember the Bible admonishes you to honor your mother and father and to obey them in the Lord (Deuteronomy 5:16, Matthew 19:19, Ephesians 6:1-2, Colossians 3:20). Also remember, that only goes as far as they don't ask you to do things contrary to Scripture.

If you are not living with your parents, or if your parents will let you, then I would recommend finding a local, Bible believing and teaching church where God is honored and the gospel of the Bible is clearly proclaimed. Personally, for me, that would be a local reformed Presbyterian church or, Reformed Baptist, or if those weren't available I'd look for a conservative Lutheran church. I would not recommend an independent church as they are all over the map doctrinally and you'd most likely end up in another Thiemite situation. Be prepared to be challenged. Many Christians hold differing views on non-essentials like eschatology but ALL agree on the gospel. The gospel is where our unity is and we should love one another and proclaim that gospel to a lost world that needs to be reconciled to God.

MsR07, do not make any radical changes or fly off the deep end with your loved ones and parents. Love and respect them. Study the Scriptures, give yourself time to form your opinions on things and make sure you go about things in a God honoring way. As many things as Thieme taught that are bad and wrong, he did teach some things well. It is just that the bad stuff is very bad and akin to spiritual drano.

If you’d like some links to what I believe are some solid, Bible believing and teaching denominations, to help find a local church, I’d be happy to post or send you some of those links.

Regards,
Chris

MsR07, I couldn't agree more with Thiemite's response.

Let me encourage you with a singular thought. When you accepted Christ as your Savior, you were indwelled by the Holy Spirit. He is there to comfort and guide you, and is the Author of Revelation and Inspiration. In my time at BC, I never really understood this precious gift. If you pray for guidance and go to God's Word, I assure you that He never - [i:cb3b061295][b:cb3b061295]NEVER [/b:cb3b061295][/i:cb3b061295]- fails to reveal Himself in ways you cannot currently imagine. Ask Him to enlighten you and show you His truth, and the Holy Spirit will guide you.

Because of my time under Thieme, I now have the absolute courage through strength in Christ to question any man's teachings if they don't come from God's Word, and are Scripturally correct (note I said "Scripturally correct", not "doctrinally correct").

Thank you for your courage to challenge what you understand are false teachings. You are on my right path, my dear - do not be deterred. I will be praying for you.

In His Grip,
Juker

zams and mile2:

Verification of information is important. I personally verified the information in Hunt's book on Thieme's education at the University of Arizona, by emailing Special Collections.

Quote

Various honors were conferred at graduation at the U of A according to a person’s academic standing in their class when R. B. Thieme attended the university. R. B. Thieme Jr. obtained his undergraduate degree from the University of Arizona in the 1939-40 academic year. The UA Record for that year indicates three graduates received the honor “with highest distinction”, 18 (including Robert B. Thieme, Jr. who received a BA from the College of Liberal Arts) with “high distinction”, and 32 received “with distinction”.


I did find in the 1930 UA Record an explanation for awarding these distinctions:

With Highest Distinction was awarded to the three graduates whose academic standing was highest among all those obtaining bachelor degrees.

With High Distinction was awarded to those students whose academic standing ranked them in the highest 1/20th of the reminder of the class.

With Distinction was awarded to those whose academic standing ranked them in the highest 1/10th of the remainder of the class.

In order to be eligible to receive these distinctions, a student had to have completed at least 60 units of work at the UA.


The UA Record for 1939-40 also indicates that Robert B. Thieme, Jr. was one of three graduates to receive departmental honor in Classical Literature and as one of 66 Senior Scholars that year. UA had a total of 444 seniors that academic year. Most graduated, I think, but I didn’t take the time to count the exact number of names on the list of graduates.


These “distinction” awards were rather in the same vein as the typically increasing degree of honor we think of as “Latin honors” (cum laude, magna cum laude, and summa cum laude) which we use today. Now, however, graduation with academic distinction is based upon a student's grade-point average rather than on their academic positioning among a group of peers. Now terms signifying academic distinction are: Summa Cum Laude (awarded to candidates whose grade-point average is 3.900 or higher), Magna Cum Laude (awarded to candidates whose grade-point average is 3.700-3.899), and Cum Laude (awarded to candidates whose grade-point average is 3.5000-3.699). Cumulative GPA to graduate is 2.0, I think. This is at the U of A… another university might have a different scale.


If you want copies of the pages of the UA Record that lists the UA graduates of Robert B. Thieme Jr.’s class you can contact our document delivery unit to see if you are eligible to obtain copies. They may require you to work through your local library’s interlibrary loan department rather than directly as an individual (unless you do have a UA ID card). You can contact them through email at

askill@u.library.arizona.edu or by phone at 520-621-6438. If you have a UA ID card you can do this all online: [www.library.arizona.edu]



The source information you need to supply to them is

Title: The University of Arizona Record, 1941-42,42-43.

Call number: E 9791 Univ. 1B v. 33-34 Special Collections

Page numbers:

Pp267-285 complete section on degrees and awards for 1939-1940

p. 270-71 (College of Liberal Arts Degrees Conferred) R. B.Thieme listed

p.281 (Departmental Honors) R.B. Thieme listed

p. 282-83 Collegiate Honors (Senior Scholars) R. B. Thieme listed

Truthtesty

Just a minor note:

If you look at the college catalogues of most colleges, I think you will see that a [i:69335384d5]Bachelor of Arts from the College of Liberal Arts[/i:69335384d5] is one of the easiest bachelors degrees that anyone can acquire.


Truthtesty

MsR07:

I sent you a PM. However, I don't think you will receive it until you have 10 posts on this board. If you wish, you can e-mail me at truthtesty@hotmail.com and I will re-send it directly to your e-mail address.


Truthtesty

Quote
MsR07
Hello everyone. I'm a 19 year old female and I just joined after reading some of these discussions. (Brace yourselves because this post has nothing of substance other than to describe my recent questioning of these principles.)

I have been raised on what I've come to refer to as "Bible Doctrine," under Colonel Thieme, and that's all I've ever known. It hasn't been until recently, in the past year really, that I've stepped back and realized that I associate my salvation with doing everything the Colonel says, not even the Bible, but the Colonel. I haven't come to question my faith, I am a Christian and I believe in God, Christ's death, and salvation through Christ with all that I am. But recently it's as though a window has opened in my mind and I've realized I can't back up anything I believe in, even to myself, other than it's what I learned from the Colonel. I think he is a good man and has many many great principles, but surely only what he says is okay is not what I should base my entire faith upon. And like many of you have said, when questioned about the fact that I am in a cult-like organization, I usually find myself thinking "well, person, surely you must not truly understand the Bible. Poor soul."
I even find myself feeling guilty by coming to this site and making this post. Not guilt as if I might be blaspheming or sinning, but guilt because I have always been taught not to question what Col Thieme says. I'm a naturally analytical and curious person, and not one to typically accept something "just because it's so." So I believe that in the back of my mind this questioning of his authority has been building up, yet supressed because of the emphasis of his word being final in my upbringing. I'm not from Texas, but visited the church several times with my parents over the years. Occasionally I'd find myself surprised by something he said or some rule he has that seemed off-the-wall, and once I even made a half-joking comment to my mother about I hope I wouldn't be excommunicated from the church because heaven forbid I broke one of their rules... It was as though I had questioned the existence of God himself. She didn't take it well.
Needless to say, I've decided my parents aren't the most unbiased people to discuss my sudden crisis with. But like I said, I'm very new to open my eyes to the fact that this just maybe isn't the absolute set-in-stone truth. I'm still figuring it out, and trying to decide where to go from here.

I suppose to sum up what I've been trying to say... This is all I know. If and when any of you first began to question some of his teachings after learning only that your entire life, where did you go? Where did you start, how did you come to a place that you felt good about, and did you have to learn to separate a few of the Colonel's oddities from God's word?

Hey MsR07...I'm much older than you, but I grew up under that ministry. My recommendation is to always go to God first. I went to Him in prayer with my doubts and questions, and He was faithful to start clearing things up for me. It didn't happen overnight. In fact, I still have more questions than answers. But I'm at peace.

Don't be afraid to read and listen to what other biblical scholars have to say. But MOST IMPORTANTLY, read the bible. I recommend starting with the four gospels. These accounts of the life of Jesus are very important for those of us who grew up under Thieme's ministry. Don't worry about trying to interpret the translation correctly; just read it like a story. It's important to start seeing the whole picture. The gospels are four people's record of the life and ministry of Jesus himself. And being that He is God and all, I take what He has to say most seriously.

I wish you the very best in sorting things out. Be still and know that HE is GOD.

TO THE MODERATOR, or anyone else who can answer my question. The last two weekends, Sundays mostly I have been unable to get any page of Rick Ross web site.

In addition, I no longer receive any notices in my email inbox that posts have been added to this thread, and I am SURE that I signed up for this service. Up until last weekend I received a notice every time soneone added a post to the thread. I have not received any notices in at least seven days.

What gives? How can I fix it?

Thanks,
Sistersoap

MsR07 siad:

Hello everyone. I'm a 19 year old female and I just joined after reading some of these discussions. (Brace yourselves because this post has nothing of substance other than to describe my recent questioning of these principles.)

I have been raised on what I've come to refer to as "Bible Doctrine," under Colonel Thieme, and that's all I've ever known. It hasn't been until recently, in the past year really, that I've stepped back and realized that I associate my salvation with doing everything the Colonel says, not even the Bible, but the Colonel.

COMMENT:
That is the biggest step you could take: noticing that your attention is on "The Colonel" and what he says rather than the Bible and what it says. Just noticing that is HUGE. Especially for a person who has never known any other teaching. Later on as you look back on your spiritual journey you will see how big it really is. Congratulations!


BACK TO YOUR FIRST POST:
I haven't come to question my faith, I am a Christian and I believe in God, Christ's death, and salvation through Christ with all that I am. But recently it's as though a window has opened in my mind and I've realized I can't back up anything I believe in, even to myself, other than it's what I learned from the Colonel.

COMMENT:
That is also a big step. My first independent non Thieme thought was:
"All these 'special vocabulary' words and concepts are not in the Bible. Is that the same thing as teaching things that are not in the Bible?" Answer: Yes. It was a long time after that that I began to notice other problems with the teaching, but I was a lone taper most of my time "under" the Colonel....so I thought I was the only one who had problems with his teaching. And until the Internet came along, there really was no way for us to find each other! Testy is right: The Internet has been a great means of liberating us. We don't camp on pro Thieme sites and pages and try to "prove" to them how wrong he is and how wrong they are; we find each other or post on appropriate message boards like this one. Most of us are interested in helping each other recover. Sometimes there is a lot of passion, but over all we have a pretty fair balance considering that the pro Thieme folks here lack a certain level of ability in making their points. The reason that is so I think has something to do with what you said: You can't back up anything you believe in even to yourself other than what you have learned from the Colonel. His teaching makes him the "pope" for his followers and removes the Bible from the direct view of the people in the pew. He taught us not to read that Bible in English and never ever spoke about reasons to trust the best of our English Bibles...for me that is the KJB. He TRAINED US not to "feed ourselves" by reading the Bible for ourselves. It was a false idea and it entrapped many people, smart people, too. His authority over us was granted to himself by himself not by God or God's Word.

YOU SAID:
I think he is a good man and has many many great principles, but surely only what he says is okay is not what I should base my entire faith upon. And like many of you have said, when questioned about the fact that I am in a cult-like organization, I usually find myself thinking "well, person, surely you must not truly understand the Bible. Poor soul."

COMMENT:
We have heard many people say things like that to us. ....If we don't agree with "the Colonel's" teachings then surely WE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND IT." That is a form of denial.

YOU SAID:
I even find myself feeling guilty by coming to this site and making this post. Not guilt as if I might be blaspheming or sinning, but guilt because I have always been taught not to question what Col Thieme says.

COMMENT:
Yes, that is from your Thieme training. But the Bible COMMENDS believers who check out what they are being taught with the Word of God. And the great Apostle Paul himself is the one who praised the Bereans because they were more noble than the believers in Thessalonica:


Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


Now if Paul could accept their inspection and their searching the Scriptures to see if what HE said was consistent with the Scriptures they already had {possibly only the Old Testament}, then why not the same process with Thieme? But every faithful taper or Berachah church member would see this as disloyalty and possibly even reversionism! So God's Word actually holds each believer responsilble for checking out whatever they hear from ANY Bible teacher. As a taper, I never had TIME to go back and look up all the verses we were given to "prove" Thieme's many "doctrinal breakthroughs" or any of his other teachings. And as Spiritual Liberty has said, nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to learn Greek or Hebrew to read God's Word. Any faithful translation from accurate copies of reliable texts will do. Most Christians in the past have had no access to "Greek and Hebrew" much less teachers who "taught from the original languages" and therefore it is not the be all and end all of Bible teaching as Thieme would have you believe. Questioning what you have always believed is part of growing up, and if these things can't stand a fair inspection, then they are not worth believing. The real truth of God's Word will stand the most rigorous questioning. And no man is to stand between you and that Word. If you are saved, you have the Holy Spirit, and He says


1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


The truth is, we listened to and trusted SOMEONE ELSE'S STUDYING of the Word of God, not the Word itself. We allowed ourselves to be impressed with a man's "qualifications" above what we should have done.

Another truth is that Thieme saw a real need in the Church, the Body of Christ, and that need is still present with us: there was and still is a dearth of verse by verse teaching through books of the Bible. But you don't have to have advanced degrees to lead a congregation in studying together through God's Book. And if you can't follow the thought of a Book as it goes from beginning to end IN ENGLISH, and explain it to someone else, then what on earth business do you have fooling around in Greek or Hebrew? It is AMAZING how well the Word explains itself in CONTEXT, and context is something you never get from Thieme's teaching.

YOU SAID:
I'm a naturally analytical and curious person, and not one to typically accept something "just because it's so." So I believe that in the back of my mind this questioning of his authority has been building up, yet supressed because of the emphasis of his word being final in my upbringing.

COMMENT:
You say you are 19 years old. Are you in college? Are you still living under your parents' roof? If you are in college, then that is good, because you are exposed to all kinds of other beliefs and opinions, and your parents would naturally expect for you to explore different ideas. I would advise you when talking with your parents to emphasize the fact that you are discovering what a joy it is to just read the ENGLISH, and to reason with them that Greek and Hebrew are not your native language. God has not commanded us to depend upon someone else who does know some of these languages but to depend upon HIM and the best English translation we can find, and the Holy Spirit says HE WILL TEACH US. Rather than getting in an argument with your folks over specific doctrines, that is the line I would take. If you are still living at home, it will be harder for you because I assume they would expect you to continue to listen to their tapes daily.

YOU SAID:
I'm not from Texas, but visited the church several times with my parents over the years. Occasionally I'd find myself surprised by something he said or some rule he has that seemed off-the-wall, and once I even made a half-joking comment to my mother about I hope I wouldn't be excommunicated from the church because heaven forbid I broke one of their rules... It was as though I had questioned the existence of God himself. She didn't take it well.

COMMENT:
I CAN IMAGINE!

YOU SAID:
Needless to say, I've decided my parents aren't the most unbiased people to discuss my sudden crisis with. But like I said, I'm very new to open my eyes to the fact that this just maybe isn't the absolute set-in-stone truth. I'm still figuring it out, and trying to decide where to go from here.

I suppose to sum up what I've been trying to say... This is all I know. If and when any of you first began to question some of his teachings after learning only that your entire life, where did you go? Where did you start, how did you come to a place that you felt good about, and did you have to learn to separate a few of the Colonel's oddities from God's word?

COMMENT:
Each of has had a slightly different path. For many years I was miserable, but did not know that Thieme's teachings had a LOT to do with it. From time to time I would go to Christian book stores and pick up one particular book and thumb through it. It was Bob George's CLASSIC CHRISTIANITY. I thought it was heresy! It taught that all my sins, your sins, everyone's sins, were FORGIVEN at the Cross, and you know Thieme does not teach that. So I would put it down and walk away. Finally after a loooonng time I bought the book and read it. It was WONDERFUL. It was the first real understandable explanation of real grace, not the fake grace according to Thieme. It opened up the "windows" of my direct relationship with Christ and God used it to teach me that God's love was not Thieme's "impersonal" love which was very off putting to say the least. It gave me my first taste of the liberty that Christ died and rose again to give me. After that it was a struggle about REBOUND, but God got through to me on that too. Christian radio is a mixed bag, but Malcolm Smith and Bob George radio ministries were very helpful to me in the beginning.

I well remember feeling that if REBOUND were not true, then what else was there in the Christian life? There was nothing else to do! My whole life was rebound, rebound, rebound. Thinking about rebound not being true felt like the floor was going to be pulled out from under me. But God had better things in store for me, and if you keep asking Him to teach you directly from His Book, He will teach you.

The advice that others have given you is good: THE WORD OF GOD is the source and you are entitled to read it for yourself and learn from it. So take long, big "bites" and you will soon give up that "guilty" feeling of disloyalty to the "Colonel" and replace it with a renewed faith in Christ Himself and His Word. There is no more solid foundation for life. And you are not taught that under Thieme.

In Christ and In Him Alone,
Sistersoap

Note to Voltaic

Diotrophes was not present in 3 John 1:9, so [b:ad84145ccc]apparently it was not required[/b:ad84145ccc]. You say that Diotrophes was written a direct letter previously? So? I wrote a direct letter to Thieme previously.


Truthtesty