R.B. Thieme Jr.
Date: September 24, 2007 07:16PM
SynergyCon,
I guess you are just choosing to ignore the different shades of description and all the documentation that has been provided here and elsewhere that demonstrates the cultish elements of the Thiemite system. Some here think it is a cult, others think it has cultish elements to it. I believe that it has very harmful, cultish elements to it but I don't think it is a cult. My wife, and others, especially on this board think the Thiemite system has become a full fledged cult.
Orangeperuviscacha, linked to ton of information that demonstrates clearly where the cultish elements come into play.
The doctrine of "right pastor" is popish and cultish by anyone's standards, except those involved in such systems.
As I told someone else, when Christians read the Scriptures, even new believers, they don't become: Thiemites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormans, Arians, etc. Interestingly enough they learn God's moral commands and discover that God encourages Christians to go to church and serve one another. Imagine that.
I found a good checklist too, from www.carm.org, it is a checklist that may be used to evaluate groups to see if they have cultish elements to them. Get enough of these checked and it should give one pause for concern:
Applying these to the Thiemite system:
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1. What is a cult?
1. Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of new ideas. (yes, all)
1. New Teaching - has a new theology and doctrine. (yes, Thieme often had theological "breakthroughs")
2. Only True Teaching - often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth. (yes)
3. Strong Leadership - often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group’s teachings and practices. (yes)
4. Asset Acquirement - (no)
5. Isolationist - to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally. (all but financially)
6. Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening lose of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination. (yes, all but loss of salvation)
7. Indoctrination - possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented. (yes, all)
8. Apocalyptic - to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it. (yes, Russian invasion, Muslim hord invasion, etc)
9. Experience - various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases, and ‘spiritual’ enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth. (no, debatable)
10. Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution. (yes)
2. Many have a non-verifiable belief systems
1. For example, they would teach something that cannot be verified. (yes)
2. Often, the philosophy makes sense only if you adopt the full set of values and definitions that it teaches. (yes)
-. With this kind of belief, truth becomes unverifiable, internalized, and easily manipulated through the philosophical systems of its inventor.
3. The Leader of a Cult
1. Often charismatic who is considered very special for varying reasons:
1. The leader has received special revelation from God.
2. The leader claims to be the incarnation of a deity, angel, or special messenger.
3. The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission
4. The leader claims to have special abilities (yes)
2. The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted. (yes)
4. Cult ethos
1. Usually seek to do good works, otherwise no one would join them. (no)
2. They are usually moral and possess a good standard of ethical teaching. (no)
3. Many times the Bible is used or additional "scriptures" are penned. (no)
1. The Bible, when used, is always distorted with private interpretations. (yes)
4. Many Cults recruit Jesus as one of their own and redefine him accordingly (no)
5. Cult groups vary greatly.
1. From the ascetic to the promiscuous. (yes, promiscuous)
2. From esoteric knowledge to very simple teachings. (yes, esoteric)
3. From the rich and power to the poor and weak.
2. Who is vulnerable to joining a cult?
1. Everyone is vulnerable.
1. Rich, poor, educated, non-educated, old, young, previously religious, atheistic, etc.
2. General Profile of cult member (some or all of the following)
1. Disenchanted with conventional religious establishments.
2. Intellectually confused over religious and/or philosophical issues
3. Sometimes disenchanted with society as a whole
4. Has a need for encouragement and support
5. Emotionally needful
6. Needs a sense of purpose.
7. Financially needful
3. Recruitment techniques
1. They find a need and fill it. One of the ways they do this is called
1. "Love Bombing" - Constant positive affection in word and deed. (no)
1. Sometimes there is a lot of physical contact like hugging, pats on the back, and touching. (no)
2. Cult group members will lend emotional support to someone in need. (no)
3. Help them in various ways...whatever is needed. (no)
1. The person then becomes indebted to the cult.
4. Compliment them, reassure them, and make them the center of attention.
2. Many Cults use the influence of the Bible and/or mention Jesus as being one of their own; thereby adding validity to their system. (yes)
1. Scripture twisting (yes)
1. Those that use the Bible take verses out of context (yes)
2. Then mix their misinterpreted verses with their aberrant philosophy. (yes)
3. Gradualism
1. Slow altering of thinking processes and belief system through repeated teaching (yes)
1. People usually accept cult doctrines one point at a time. (yes)
2. New beliefs are reinforced by other cult members.
4. Why would someone join?
1. The cult satisfies various needs:
1. Psychological - Someone could have a weak personality, easily lead.
2. Emotional - Someone could have recently suffered an emotional trauma
3. Intellectual - Someone has questions that this group answers.
2. The cult gives them approval, acceptance, purpose, and a sense of belonging.
3. The cult is appealing for some reason. It could be . . .
1. Moral rigidity and purity
2. Financial security
3. Promises of exaltation, redemption, higher consciousness, or a host of other rewards. (yes)
5. How are they kept in the cult?
1. Dependence (yes)
1. People often want to stay because the cult meets their psychological, intellectual, and spiritual needs. (yes)
2. Isolation
1. Outside contacts are reduced and more and more of the life of the member is built around the cult. (yes)
2. It then becomes very easy to control and shape the member.
3. Cognitive Reconstruction (Brainwashing):
1. Once the person is indoctrinated, their thinking processes are reconstructed to be consistent with the cult and to be submissive to its leaders. (yes)
2. This facilitates control by the cult leader(s).
4. Substitution
1. The Cult and cult leaders often take the place of mother, father, priest, teacher, and healer.
2. Often the member takes on the characteristics of a dependent child seeking to win the approval of the leader and or group.
5. Indebtedness
1. The member becomes indebted to the group emotionally, financially, etc.
6. Guilt
1. The person is told that to leave is to betray the leader, God, the group, etc. (yes)
2. The person is told that leave would mean to reject the love and help the group has given.
7. Threat
1. Threat of destruction by God for turning from the truth. (yes)
2. Sometimes physical threat is used, though not often. (yes, Thieme often said, come see me after class and mentioned his "boxing", etc)
3. Threat of missing the apocalypse, or being judged on judgment day, etc. (yes, loss of "rewards")
6. How do you get them out?
1. The best thing is to try not to let them get trapped in the first place.
2. If you are a Christian, then pray.
3. But, to get a person out of a cult takes
1. Time, energy, and support.
4. Teach them the truth.
1. Give them a true replacement for their aberrant belief system
2. Show the cult group's philosophic inconsistencies
3. Study the group and learn its history seeking clues and information.
5. Try and get them physically away from the cult group.
6. Give them the support they need emotionally.
7. Alleviate the threat that if they leave the group they are doomed or in danger.
8. Generally, don't attack the leader of the group...that comes later.
9. Converts often feel a loyalty and respect for the founder of the group.
10. Confront them when needed.
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There are an awful lot of yeses that are checked there for the Thiemite system. Yes, there are a few items which your average church could be checked for but the Thiemite system, when evaluated objectively, is able to check yes for so many of those items that it should give one pause for concern.
We are not talking about simple theological differences among brothers, we are talking about some very bad theology and cultish behavior that should be avoided and has been made an integral part of the Thiemite system.
Again, Christians who read Scripture, even new Christians, are able to discern the gospel, learn God's moral law and standards of conduct for believers, and are taught among many other things, to find a local church to be apart of, to participate in service and receive the means of grace for believers (the preached word, corporate worship, the Lord's supper), etc.
Where do you now attend church?
Chris