Hi TestyTruth,
Thanks for the update. Dr.Fred Schwarz was an Australian medical doctor who came to the USA to start a ministry to communists. He named his orgainzation the Christian Anti Communism Crusade JUST THAT WAY. He wanted Communists to know he was not against them as PERSONS, as HUMAN BEINGS. Schwarz was a deep researcher who read the communits literature in its original publications and kept up to date on it till his death not all that long ago. He was a masterful debater and educator, unlikne Thieme, who never debated anyone that we know of.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Could you possible tell us your sources for his subsequent to WWII service?

Sistersoap

I started a new topic CALLED LONELINESS OUTSIDE THE CULT thinking it would show up in this thread, the R.B.THIEME JR. thread. But it is a whole different thread. I would be happy for you to comment HERE since it is the Thieme "cult" I am speaking of.

Here is what I said:
Dear Friends on this Board,
What do you do when you want to talk to someone about Thieme and your life before during and after? How do you find someone to talk to about it? It is very hard to do. It seems the people around me don't want to hear it. They seem to think that talking about it should be OVER with once you leave. NOT SO.

I have spent a lot of time the last week or so reviewing this board, and other sources about what I used to believe and how it affected me and NOBODY here seems to realize how important it is to keep talking about it.

If it were not for you here on this board, there would be virtually nobody at all who knows what I am talking about.

I am so thankful to ORANGE who started this thread! And to the Rick Ross web site for providing the forum in the first place.

There is one difficulty you might be able to help me with and that is the size of the print on the screen. I wish I could control the size of the print. To read these posts I have to copy and paste into a word processing program, enlarge the print and then read it. Cumbersome!

Suggestions, anyone?

Sistersoap

Does anyone here remember the PSALM 119 TAPE SERIES of Thieme's?

It seems to have disappeared. I recently told someone about this series and how it fits in the RBT SYSTEM:

One of the most FEAR PRODUCING SERIES OF MESSAGES messages Bob Thieme ever gave was early on and it was Old Testament. It was on Psalm 119. The reason it was so scary was this: Bob taught this was an account of captive Jews on the trek from Jerusalem to Babylon? I think that was the destination. The Jewish captives were mercilessly tortured in every way possible when the procession stopped for the night. Thieme went into excruciating detail with the skinning alive from head to toe, the sexual abuse and torture IN GORY DETAIL, and so forth.

The Psalm exalts the Word of God in nearly every verse. It is an acrostic psalm. But it does not say that this is the writing of a captive being tortured and taken from Israel to Babylon. RBT claimed that the group included EZRA who lived to return to Jerusalem, when the Captivity was over. If it was Ezra as the author of the Psalm, he would have been VERY YOUNG when taken.

So week after week during one terrible summer we in my tape group listened to this account of Thieme's with all the horrible trimmings one could think of. The point I suppose was that the Word of God can sustain you through anything, but of course, if you fail to rebound for very long, you are toast!

So that phrase "SKINNED ALIVE WITH A WHIP" has special meaning for Thieme followers. He means it literally. This is what he says is God's discipline for the believer or punishment for disbelieving or leaving Bible Doctrine! You get the picture of Jesus being whipped to pieces till his deep blood vessels are exposed. Same thing. This is the picture of God's discipline of the believer for wrong doing of unspecified kinds that the Thieme-ite has in the back of his mind at all times. I wish I could think of the Bible verse where Thieme uses the words "skinned alive with a whip" instead of the Bible English! Just imagine Saddam Hussein coming after you for misbehaving and you get the picture perfectly.

I don't think they offer Psalm 119 any more. It seems to have disappeared. But it would be a good documentation of his teaching about how God punishes the believer. So much for NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST......Of course, if you did not get skinned alive with the whip for wrong doing, you could easily end up with the same level of suffering when the "balloon went up" when the Communists took over the USA. Now I have no problem with conspiracy theories, they are more sensible than doing things by accident. And back then it was a daily thing to talk about Communists because active fighting was going on in Central and South America (still are by the way) between governments and communist guerillas. Bob appealed to patriotism and military constantly and his view was the ONLY view of loyalty to our country. I just ate it up back then. I even joined the John Birch Society for a while and helped get Congressman Larry MacDonald elected to the US Congress. {Same bloke who died on the KAL flight that got shot down by Soviet Russia into the ocean while Nixon was President.} Later I left the organization when I saw it conflicted with true Biblical principles, as it was really founded and carried on by the Mormons. But they were good at seeing conspiracies all over the place.

. Like I say, not everything Thieme taught was wrong! There really are some people after some of us.....

So there is plenty of fear of various kinds to go around in Thiemeparkland. And God's word says that PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT ALL FEAR. Fancy that!

I REMEMBERED THAT VERSE:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Well it does say SCOURGETH. And that is exactly what being ripped apart with a cat o nine tails means.....Guess I will have to do more research on that! Thieme made lots of mileage on the suffering involved in such an ordeal.

Here is the rest of the passage:

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Thieme had a way of pronouncing the "SKINNED ALIVE WITH A WHIP" with a snarl, giving emphasis as if he were in a melodrama. Unforgettable.


What I want to know is WAS THIEME RIGHT IN his description of SKINNING ALIVE WITH A WHIP in this passage in Hebrews? Does it apply to the Christian of today?

I am sure I am not the only one.

Sistersoap

To Sistersoap:


The source for the several active tours after WWII-1961 is the book "Robert B. Thieme, JR. - His Ancestry, His Life" by C. G. Hunt. Hunt says he acquired this information by the Freedom of Information Act from the National Personnel Records Center St. Louis, Mo.

[www.archives.gov]



Truthtesty

Quote
Truthtesty
To Sistersoap:


The source for the several active tours after WWII-1961 is the book "Robert B. Thieme, JR. - His Ancestry, His Life" by C. G. Hunt. Hunt says he acquired this information by the Freedom of Information Act from the National Personnel Records Center St. Louis, Mo.

[www.archives.gov]



Truthtesty

THANK YOU TESTY TRUTH!
Sistersoap

To the Forum:

Note - Thieme's several tours of active duty occurred from the end of the Korean War to 1961.

If you have DSL, just click on "Watch 256k stream"

[b:838ae4663a]Part 1[/b:838ae4663a]

Democracy Now quote

Quote

"[b:838ae4663a]SERE[/b:838ae4663a] was [b:838ae4663a]created by the Air Force[/b:838ae4663a], at the [b:838ae4663a]end of the Korean War[/b:838ae4663a], [b:838ae4663a]to teach pilots[/b:838ae4663a] and other personnel considered [b:838ae4663a]at high risk of being captured [/b:838ae4663a]by enemy forces how to withstand and resist extreme forms of abuse."

Democracy Now quote

Quote

"And to me, it was interesting, some of the people I had interviewed who knew the insides to this program said that they also, [b:838ae4663a]to create anxiety and upset[/b:838ae4663a] in the soldiers, [b:838ae4663a]they take Bibles and they trash them[/b:838ae4663a]. They throw them on the ground, they rip them in the air"

[www.democracynow.org]



[b:838ae4663a]Part 2[/b:838ae4663a]

Democracy Now quote

Quote

"JANE MAYER: Well, it was fascinating to me to discover that there is such as program. It was [b:838ae4663a]put into place after the Korean War[/b:838ae4663a] when – during that war, [b:838ae4663a]when our prisoners of war were taken captive[/b:838ae4663a]. [b:838ae4663a]There was a lot of concern that they might have been [u:838ae4663a]brainwashed[/u:838ae4663a] into giving up secrets, and so afterwards, there was an effort made by the military to try to create a program that would inoculate soldiers and strengthen their resistance in case they were ever taken captive so that they wouldn't give up secrets during interrogation[/b:838ae4663a].

[www.democracynow.org]



Truthtesty

Quote
sistersoap
Just one sin makes you unfit to enter heaven and have eternal life. God offers his grace salvation as a gift. Thieme preaches this, but he fails to recognize the contradiction when he subsequently tells his listeners that the gift is not enough to take care of sins committed after salvation.

...

Thieme might say we are complete in Christ but then he like some others denies it teaching partial forgiveness.

Well said, Sistersoap. As you said, there are unfortunately other movements besides Thieme’s that teach partial forgiveness. But I’ve never heard anyone else put such an extreme emphasis on it. Everything you do will be meaningless to God, and you will die a miserable death under “maximum divine discipline,” if you dare to reject his partial forgiveness teaching. And this teaching produces one contradiction after another. According to Thieme, 99.9% of all Christians will enter eternity with many sins unforgiven because they weren’t constantly “rebounding” during their life on earth. How can an [i:666b84462c]unforgiven [/i:666b84462c]person enter heaven? And then we have this so-called “ultimate forgiveness” at the resurrection that even the “winners” are waiting for. But in that case, there are millions of people in heaven right now, whose sins are not completely forgiven. What an absurd idea!

Here’s another question that Thieme followers will never be able to answer: Suppose you’ve been having a pretty good day. You’ve been trying to do the right thing and keep your thoughts pure throughout the day, as you deal with family, the job, the world, and the everyday challenges of life. You get home from work and you want to spend some time in prayer. But of course, God won’t hear a word you say if you haven’t “rebounded” and recovered fellowship. You almost certainly would’ve committed at least a few mental sins during the course of the day, but you honestly can’t remember. So now you’re stuck. You absolutely [i:666b84462c]must [/i:666b84462c]make sure you’re “in fellowship,” before you pray, study, or do anything at all to serve the Lord. But the [i:666b84462c]only [/i:666b84462c]way to “recover fellowship,” is to [u:666b84462c]name and cite[/u:666b84462c] your [u:666b84462c]known[/u:666b84462c] sins! You’re most likely already “out of fellowship,” but there’s no way for you to “recover fellowship.” What can you do? This is a rather embarrassing question that Thieme followers generally prefer not to talk about, although I have heard a few wild explanations from time to time. Some Thieme followers will attempt to give some kind of weak excuse for this, but there is no way around this question. Thieme is dogmatically clear that the [b:666b84462c][i:666b84462c]only [/i:666b84462c][/b:666b84462c]“doctrinal” way to “recover fellowship” is to [i:666b84462c][b:666b84462c]name [/b:666b84462c][/i:666b84462c]your [i:666b84462c][b:666b84462c]known [/b:666b84462c][/i:666b84462c]sins to God. Therefore, if you can’t remember any of your recent sins (i.e., you don’t have any [i:666b84462c]known [/i:666b84462c]sins to [i:666b84462c]name [/i:666b84462c]to God), there is no way you can actually “rebound.” You’re actually stuck “out of fellowship” until you commit a “known sin” that you can “name and cite.”

I have talked to many former Catholics who told me about their experiences in the confessional booth. And some have told me stories from their childhood when they would go to the priest because they were told to, but they honestly couldn’t think of any sins to tell the priest. They found themselves in a similar predicament as our brethren who practice “rebound.” So they would just make up a few sins they never actually committed, just so they would have something to tell the priest, and get it over with. We can fool a priest, but we can’t fool God. And there is no getting around the illogical absurdities of the “rebound” doctrine.

I would love to hear ephesians or Galiban try to answer this one. We can add it to the list I presented to ephesians on 04-22-2007 (page 29). And anyone with experience in public debating will tell you that, when someone leaves that many questions unanswered (especially without even acknowledging the questions), they have essentially admitted defeat.

Forgiven in Christ,
Liberty

HI Liberty,

Thanks for your reply. I have heard from some former tapers that they did just what the child in the confessional did in your example. They either made something up that they did not do, or they ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING OR COMMITTED SOME MENTAL SIN so they could confess it and get back 'in fellowship."

Now if that isn't using sin to make grace abound I don't know what it!

And as I was reading on the BERACHAH CHURCH WEB SITE last night about "The Colone's" updated cndition, I had a thought:

HE CAN'T REBOUND. He can't remember any sins. What does he do now?
I picked up on one of your statements earlier in this thread that THIEME WILL BE GRATEFUL THAT HE WAS WRONG ABOUT FORGIVENESS, and I added a personal amen to that, seeing that by his own teaching he is in danger of divine discipline for lack of "rebound." I am not being disrespectful of the man or his sad condition. I have seen dementia and Alzheimer's up close and personal. It is not pretty. I do not rejoice in his misfortune. He is getting the best of care unlike less fortunate families who cannot provide this wonderful standard of treatment. And the sufferer is the one who eventually suffers the least. Those around them have the major share of dealing with their disability.

I don't for one moment think God is holding ANY of Bob Thieme's sins against him, because His Word declares it to be so and for no other reason.

As I was reading in Romans this morning I came across

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I know this verse is used by some to claim partial forgiveness. I know there is an answer, but right now I ca n't come up with it Can you help?

Sistersoap

To sister and the Forum:


sistersoap quote

Quote

I have heard from some former tapers that they did just what the child in the confessional did in your example. They either made something up that they did not do, or they ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING OR COMMITTED SOME MENTAL SIN so they could confess it and get back 'in fellowship."

When I was 13 - 15 I did the same thing. I have seen worse. I have seen a Thiemite so repetively dedicated to the "rebound mantra", so internally focused, that they would bump into walls. That is a "thought stopper" as well as a pressured "tortured" false confession. "Thought Reform" in action. Designed for one thing - to break down your identity. Nervous breakdown. And guess what? It's all your fault. At least that is they way your deceived to feel. Major guilt. Oops! guilt is a sin - have to rebound that one too! Vicious cycle of self-destruction. Who do you talk to? Who in this world would understand your predicament? Psycological Isolation. If they go to berachah - you better keep up your facade, if they don't go to berachah "then thier just an idiot that doesn't understand the real meaning of the bible" Who's the idiot? The enemy is sin and it's everywhere and nowhere. The enviroment in Thieme's "playground" of your mind is turned into an "atrocity-producing environment". (I could substitute "torture chamber" for "playground")

As Lifton said

Quote

"The individual psyche can adapt to an atrocity-producing environment by means of a subself that [u:248c2d0fc5]behaves[/u:248c2d0fc5] as if autonomous and thereby joins in activities that would otherwise seem repugnant"

Doesn't one of the original 10 commandments "Thou shall not bear false witness"?(Would this not include "bearing false witness" against yourself?) Doesn't the New Testament say "Lie not" (Col 3:9)?

To thiemite cult followers, "truthful" devotion and dedication to Thieme's teachings produces a coercive environement in your own mind in direct contradistinction of your conscience and the simple truthful clear meaning of the bible.

You are correct to keep talking, to deal with "problems". I have seen many Thiemites running around "as if" they have it all "under control", when inside it's a "free fire zone" against thier own conscience and thier own perception of truth. Without your conscience your free to commit acts of atrocity (under orders of course). However, at the Nuremburg trials the "I was just following orders" excuse, didn't cut it.

Wilhelm Keitel- Chief of Staff of the High Command of the
Armed Forces
• Keitel in the Nuremberg courtroom:
"I have stated here that I was a loyal and
obedient soldier of my Führer. And I do not
think that there are generals in Russia who do
not give Marshal Stalin implicit obedience."
• [b:248c2d0fc5]His defense that he was following orders[/b:248c2d0fc5] was
rejected (Hitler’s Commando Order)
• Found guilty in all four charges, sentenced to
[b:248c2d0fc5]death by hanging[/b:248c2d0fc5]


Alfred Jodl- Chief of Operation Staff of the High
Command of the Armed Forces
• Deputy to Wilhelm Keitel
• [b:248c2d0fc5]His defence that he was following orders[/b:248c2d0fc5]
was rejected (Hitler’s Commando Order)
• Found guilty in all four charges,
sentenced to [b:248c2d0fc5]death by hanging[/b:248c2d0fc5]




Truthtesty

Thank you Truth Testy!