Guru Watch: "Can you provided more details to why you left Swamig? She claims to be "Relaized"."

I will not provide details. Many details have been spoken of at length by previous posters (regarding the general theme and actions). Anyone's so called "realization" or lack thereof is that person's problem. Meaning, it's their experience and I can neither confirm nor deny another's inner experience. No one can know what another perceives, feels, thinks, apprehends, understands, etc. You cannot know what another knows in themselves to be true or not (or even if they are truthful with themselves or not). You cannot know that now or ever. Instead, we must base our judgment and understanding upon another's actions / behaviors, no matter how limiting we may perceive our judgment (and their actions) to be (which it will always be limited, no matter how much we may wish for more).

Our actions and behaviors, no matter how much we may argue otherwise, reveal our motives, our desires and our character. Stripped of robes, of spiritual ideology, of spiritual beliefs, of spiritual claims... only then can a fair and realistic judgment be made. Why? Because reality, what is happening right in front of us which can be seen, reveals what secrets, hopes, beliefs, ideals, concepts and aspirations cannot. To suspend reason, logic, judgment and discernment in lieu of spiritual hopes and ideals is not only a contradiction to most spiritual ideologies (which bid you to replace hopes, beliefs, ideals, concepts, etc with direct experience and living fully within the moment with what is actually happening), but a slippery and dangerous slope (as then any sort of behavior and action can be justified by using claims which can't be proven and relies upon fear, submission and willingness to believe). It takes what it takes to break the spell; once broken, you can fully appreciate and understand the old wisdom of being present to yourself, using your discernment and being fully present to what is actually happening versus what you wish were happening. Sadly, this reality also means that spirituality and religion, including the teachers / leaders / priests / saints / gurus / etc, lose their "otherworldy" charm; but, that is a small price to pay for finally discovering your voice, your feet and your ground.

Hiding behind spiritual hopes, spiritual ideals, spiritual ideology, and spiritual claims is a powerful drug and, in so many instances (sadly), it is used to justify behavior that is beyond questionable. It has long been this way; it is likely to long be this way. I'd say not only is it beyond difficult for the student / seeker / disciple to break the spell, it is millions of times more difficult for the leader / teacher / priest / guru to break the spell they are caught within. Imagine how difficult it would be to be dethroned, disrobed, de-spiritualized when your entire persona / livelihood / lifestyle depends precisely upon that. It's really no wonder those with deep wisdom are difficult to find; they are average in appearance, behavior and action and haven't a single claim of superiority or authority (spiritually or worldly) to hide behind.

diddly:
Wow, thanks for a full & extensive answer!

Specially your definition of wisdom:
“they are average in appearance, behavior and action and haven't a single claim of superiority or authority (spiritually or worldly) to hide behind.”
I have never heard it put this way before. You should share more often!

However, I was asking you, as someone who has had a shift into reality (I watched your online videos) if swamig has had a similar shift into this condition, or is she just putting on a performance and recycling all the Hindu spiritual theater she learned in India?

Thank you for giving some of your time to this forum. A shorter answer would be good this time ;)

I hope the Thought Police allows this post & Holly's response.

Guru Watch:

"Thought Police"?

Hardly.

But there are rules that you agreed to before posting here.

Are you just "trolling" here?

Anyone who thinks this message board is a tough place can, for perspective,
read the Rules of Engagement on the US Navy SEALs forum.

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Our identity as Americans rests on the statement given in a document called Declaration of Independance, (not Declaration of Submission) and its lines

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they
are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed., --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

The submissive courtier/divine right ruler relationship was rejected by the new 1776 narrative that defines American identity.

But the sad thing is, the old divine right ruler doctrine is what exists in the guru role and in the alleged Vedic golden age that is taught in many yoga academies. The only kind of government the gurus can imagine is that of the just king or righteous queen. There is no doctrine that protects basic human rights in any of the Indian systems.

So today for an American to enter and remain in this kind of courtier role is something no longer normative, as in medieval or early modern times, but is something to be kept a secret.

That may be part of the survivors guilt. Submission to a demanding leader is a secret kept from outsiders, from co workers, from colleagues especially if one has to work a job in the outside world to get income to keep paying one's way in favor, or to pay ones way to get out of disgrace and back into favor.

So the only people who understand are those in on the secret. One's fellow prisoners. That too may be part of the glue keeping people inside.

That may be one of the hardest things about leaving.

In America, who can understand living in an atmosphere of court intrigue centered on a living monarch?

Who else can understand living in an atmosphere of court intrigue where one is in favor, or in disgrace, sent away to huddle with others who have lost favor and are desperate to gain it.

The only ones who understand are your fellow supplients. To leave the group is to leave the ones who understand your predicament and to re-enter a society where such a relationship is viewed with amazement.

These kinds of submissive relationships were once normative and familiar to all during medieval and early modern times.

Up to 275 to 400 years ago, in Europe, monarchs and lords were considered to be of a higher order in the divine scheme of creation than common folk who tilled the soil, served as soldiers or sailors, built houses. A lord or monarch was considered, literally to be closer to the Divine and and submission to a lord or monarch was submission to God and necessary to maintain cosmic harmony.

But...even long ago, the doctrine did state that because lords and monarchs were closer to God, their responsiblities were heavier and they were obligated to care for those under them.

But there was no way to question abuses of power. The docrtine was that the king or queen could do no wrong, for the deputy of God could do no wrong.

One could only assume evil advisors to the monarch were to blame.

But creation of American identity meant discarding this doctrine of divine right infalliable leadershi. And it rested on rejecting doctrine that human beings differed in virtue.

Ah..and just in case Guru Watch says, Oh my Corboy, look at the energy you are putting into this, you are really worked up about this--

Well, keep this in mind. The gurus file for tax exempt status from our generous American democracy.

That means that persons who have no spiritual pretensions are the ones who pay tax and indirectly subsidize the guru's tax exempt personal fiefdoms.

So...thats well worth time and attention.

corboy: I know you don't like this, but I should speak for my self.

Here are some Americans that I admire.

Amendment I:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The 1 ammendment to the bill of rights is my Favorite!

This one by Ben Franklin is not bad ether:
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Enjoy,

ThoughtPloiceWatch

Guru Watch:

The First Amendment is not a suicide pact.

People may believe whatever they wish, but they cannot do whatever they want in the name of those beliefs.

Cults frequently seek First Amendment protection regarding their abusive behavior, financial fraud, exploitation of members, child abuse, medical neglect, etc.

But we are all under the same laws governing behavior regardless of our beliefs.

Ben Franklin, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson all knew that and that's why they supported separation of church and state.

This isn't "thought police watch," bur rather meaningful accountability according to the law.

And this message board is free speech zone, withing the agreed upon rules.

BTW -- The First Amendment also guarantees freedom of speech, which includes the right to criticize gurus, cult leaders, etc

Freedom of expression is a two-way street. Gurus have the right to preach and the public has the right to criticize their preaching and/or behavior.

Have a nice day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 12:01AM by rrmoderator.

Guru Watch: "However, I was asking you, as someone who has had a shift into reality (I watched your online videos)..."

To clear up the misunderstanding: if you watched all of the vidoes you'd have heard me admit and acknowledge that there was no shift into "enlightenment" or "liberation". Were there changes in perspective, understanding or cognition overall? Yes. Though, I think it's a dangerous course of action (speaking from personal, first hand experience) to label those as "reality vs unreality" or "spiritual vs unspiritual" or "holy vs unholy". Why? Because anyone in [[i]i]any[/i] circumstance[/i] can have a change in perspective, understanding or cognition and to make claims as to where that experience lies (within some spiritual or religious philosophy, some medical philosophy, some psychological philosophy, etc) creates an unbalanced view of something that is a muli-layered (mental, emotional, physical, psychological, societal, local, national, familial, etc, et, etc) process / function / occurrence. Simpler: in my experience, it is best to not be so quick to label something in some definite way. Men once believed the earth was flat and it offended their religious and spiritual models (not to mention their reputations of all knowing, powerful speakers for God) to have to concede it was round. In even simpler terms: spirituality, religion and philsophy could use a little (or a lot) more science (or, said another way, a more wholistic view vs/ the polarizing or one sided views).

" if swamig has had a similar shift into this condition, or is she just putting on a performance and recycling all the Hindu spiritual theater she learned in India?"

This was answered in my previous reply. I cannot, nor can you, determine what another experiences within themselves. It's an impossibility. Because of that, I can't say what is performance or what isn't. I can say, however, that (as provided in this thread by previous posters) there are serious concerns and contradictions that warrant explanation, outside of spiritual feel good ideals, which have never been answered by said subject. In and of itself, the inability to acknowledge (without using some higher ideal to hide behind) valid concerns reveals the true depth of evasion which I hope people would pay careful consideration to.

Quote
Guru Watch
has... if swamig has had a similar shift into this condition, or is she just putting on a performance and recycling all the Hindu spiritual theater she learned in India?
I hope the Thought Police allows this post & Holly's response.

This forum is well monitored for good reasons. It provides a safe place for people to discuss cult systems and processes, how to recover from damages, and how to avoid them altogether. Many members have been harassed and threatened by cult members for posting critical comments and reviews when they did not do so anonymously.

It is not a place for people to promote gurus or defend their cults. The minimum understanding has to be the WARNING SIGNS regarding cults. After that, it's good to research the archives on the Rick Ross website for all the extensive information on cults in general.

I for one, appreciate the monitoring which allows for serious critiques of questionable "spiritual" opprotunists. Sites critical of one leader or another have been cyber attacked, it's owners sued, and other sorts of nasty stuff. At least here people can anonymously testify and get more information about one cult or another.

Regarding evidence of "realization" based on behavior, this is not enough. Gurus can live the act for years. They may not reveal the worst for decades. Usually it is too late for followers and even their children who have given over their lives. They are the penultimate performance artists discovering (realizing) as KUMARE did; that people create their gurus as much as gurus create themselves.

Better to be armed with information on how cults work. That you will get on this forum. The "thought police" do not exist here, however, the overseers of this forum engage in critical thinking and monitor it to protect its members from TROLLS.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2013 03:19AM by Vera City.