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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 20, 2009 11:12PM

Here is what members of the Native American community are saying.

Part of covering this should include escorting concerned readers to the discussion venues owned and used by Native Americans.

As so much has already been stolen from Native Americans, I will give only the URLs



This next URL is from website discussing this current matter.



But this article contains an interesting comment suggesting that participants could, if they wished, leave and cool off, before returning to the lodge.


At the completion of each round, the participants may emerge, if desired, to plunge into an adjacent pool or stream if one is available, or roll in the snow if the sweat is held in winter. In arid areas the participants roll in the sand to cool off and remove the sweat. Many participants maintain their places in the lodge until completion of the fourth round, while the cooled stones in the pit are removed and replaced with hot stones.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2009 11:21PM by corboy.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Sweat Lodge Victims "Definitely Murdered"
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 20, 2009 11:25PM

There is a full article here from local news, with all sorts of information.
They also have an excerpt from the James Ray waiver, but that one does not appears to have the "death clause" in that portion of it.

The "sweat lodge" was not a sweat lodge, it appears to be an illegal and very dangerous crude structure with no building permit which was not inspected by the fire department for ventilation. If that so-called sweat-lodge (brainwashing-hut) would have caught fire, it could have been even worse.
No one told the fire dept the "brainwashing-hut" was there, so one has to assume they were concealing it.

[A Comprehensive Report on Sweat Lodge Event] []

The comment by the PR guy Howard Bragman, when he tried to attack the Sherrif by saying he was running for re-election, was frankly very disturbing and very stupid.
Since a PR guy says what the client wants, that comment would have come from James Ray. This shows how dangerous and disturbed this person is.
This was terrible event, with witnesses talking about active interference.
And the Sherrif has actually said very little.

Look at the huge rescue resources needed to manage the tragedy, below.
And there are now several reports that the James Ray people were interfering.

And you don't hear James Ray or his people on the frantic 911 calls.[] If those people hadn't have stepped in, there could have been 20 deaths, or even more.


Emergency Responder Personnel
According to Chief Doerksen, when the call came in, support from the entire Verde Valley responded. It took 21 minutes to the first responders to arrive at the facility.

(Prescott eNews wondered why it took so long, until we drove out ourselves to the property. There is a very bumpy 2 mile road to travel, and in our car, that 2 mile stretch alone took 8 minutes. It would likely be slower going in a firetruck or ambulance.)

Responding to the incident:

4 helicopters - 2 Guardian, 1 Native Air (one helicopter came back for a second trip)
3 engines - 2 from the Verde Valley Fire Department, 1 from Sedona Fire Department
6 ambulances - 2 Verde Valley Fire Department, 1 Sedona Fire Department, 2 Verde Valley Ambulance, 1 Montezuma-Rimrock Fire Department
Camp Verde Hazardous Materials Team
Yavapai County Sheriff's Office
Trauma Intervention Volunteers

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 20, 2009 11:28PM

A small question:

If that many persons died (3) and required hospital treatment (19 is it?)following a ceremony conducted under supervision of a Native American ritual leader, and that ritual had been conducted on Native American land----

What is the likelihood that the leader/s who presided over the ritual would have been permitted to:

*Leave the state

*Return to their out of state residences?



On page two, Re: Angel Valley Resort Sweat Lodge in Sedona: 2 dead, 19 injured
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2009, 01:31:18 PM »

The discussant mentions that heated plastic can give off toxic gases.

and supplied this citation


(Disclaimer, what follows are some common sense suggestions from a citizen who does not happen to be a health care professional, but has had pneumonia and done a few dances with the health care system as a result. Go to your health care provider and get evaluated by someone expert in pulmonology and environmental substances. Run the following suggestions past them and see what else they advise:

Persons who return home from this event need to be followed by physicians who know how to order the necessary lab tests to

Measure blood levels for toxics derived from inhalation of smoke and plastics

Test to monitor their blood, (such as complete blood count, and other indices of bone marrow function)

Additional tests of liver and kidney function should be ordered as soon as they get home, and be repeated over the next few months.

An examination of their lungs should also be done immediately and then lung function should be tested repeatedly over the next few months.

Additional advice should be given on any special precautions to take for winter flu season. I advise consultation with pulmonary specialists and to ask if it would be desirable to obtain the seasonal flu vaccine, swine flu vaccine and also as additional precaution in event of lung stress, the pneumonia vaccine.

*If this experience has placed participants in what health care professionals term a high risk group, they may be able to get priority in recieving the swine flu immunization when it becomes available.

Though not a medical professional I suggest this, there is a delayed impact.

Health note to readers:

Learn to request a test called Estimated Glomerular Filtration Rate. It directly measures how efficiently your kidneys are working.

Glomerular filtration can decline, while BUN and creatnine stay within normal limits.

EGFR is not an exotic test and should become part of one's medical vocabularly, just like triglycerides, HDL and LDL.

End of public service announcement. Again, I am not a professional Go see a pulmonologist and a specialist in environmental toxins. Make sure the persons you consult will be capable of functioning in the capacity of expert witnesses. If they are faculty members at the local medical school, that will be especially good.

Dont delay. Filing deadlines are everything.

Note: Ten years ago, I was on a jury for a medical malpractice case. You want to be assessed by health care providers who know how to stand up for themselves under the stress of being expert witnesses. You want someone who is an authority in the field and who does NOT make his or her living as an expert witness. An attorney will always try to make your doctor look like a mercenary monster, so you want to be examined and assessed by a physician who has clout and is a faculty member at a medical school.

End of public service announcement. Time for coffee.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2009 11:54PM by corboy.

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James Arthur Ray NOT a sweat lodge, a "brainwashing hut"
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 21, 2009 12:17AM

The idea should get out into the public that what James Ray was doing was not a "sweat lodge" and has nothing to do with actual sweat lodges.
If anything, what he was doing is the precise opposite to a sweat lodge.

And its not because James Ray is stupid.

Its very obvious that he was using this "hot-house" as a method of doing extreme indoctrination on his followers. The fact is was an overheated hut, is somewhat arbitrary. He could have used a cave, or a closed barracks on a compound, a bunker, an island, a large yacht, a mountain climb, a Turnaround House, a remote hotel, anything.
He seems to have picked that place as it was CHEAP to RENT, which means more money in his pocket.

That thing was not a sweat lodge, and was not meant to be one.
The plastic was intentional, clearly to create oxygen deprivation, and extreme overheating. Maybe he got that idea from someone else who experimented with it, like MKP.

But its very unfortunate that the media, and public have focussed on the "sweat lodge" part of it, when in fact, its not even the real issue.
Its absolutely shocking to the trained-eye, that the public and media seems to be so utterly and completely blind to the methods and tactics of Thought Reform, extreme persuasion, mind-control, influence, and "brainwashing".
Its like there is a 900 pound gorilla in the room, and they are talking about the wallpaper.

Its scary, frankly, that a guy like James Ray can get caught doing this, and yet almost no one in the media sees what is going on.

He is not a self-help spiritual Guru. That is just a smokescreen.
There was no "sweat lodge".

All of that is mere "content". James Ray knows that, he's taken all the courses, he knows its just "content" and he could have changed the content to anything.
What matters is the META-PROCESSES of extreme and powerful coercive and permissive influence being used on people. Its all there in black and white, in his language patterns, and everything else he does in his seminars. There is literally NOTHING original in what James Ray does, just direct copies from other people.

What James Ray is, is a guy who went and studied all of the current LGAT group influence techniques from many sources, and just copied them, and applied them ruthessly without any conscience, to make millions of dollars very quickly, mainly through his appearances with Oprah, which he exploited like a goldmine.

To the trained-eye, seeing him on Oprah [] showed in seconds that he was a 3rd rate "covert influence" guy, of which there are hundreds around these days.
He wasn't awful in his persuasion technique, but not very convincing as he was just running standard patterns copied from others.

But unfortunately, the 99% of public seems to have NO IDEA AT ALL about ANY of these types of advanced covert influence methods.

James Ray's techniques, are quite similar to Byron Katie, and many others. There has not been time yet to go into it.
Their "content" is different, but the techniques are very similar, and many are identical.

That is the first thing you learn in covert influence, is that the "content" is really just a distraction. You need to DISTRACT people's conscious minds away from what is really going on.
So they blab about some "content" whether "spiritual" or non-dual, or shamanism, or stories, or "success" or Aliens, Enlightenment, or whatever. It can be anything at all, from the weird, to technical, to religious, to atheistic.

But it is scary, that the media and public seems to be so totally unaware of what they guys/gals do, and how they do it.
No wonder so many go into that area. In a few years of hard work, a smart and ruthless persuader can learn most of the techniques of powerful covert influence, and start up his seminar company, and start making millions.
The news media is almost useless in exposing what is going on, reporters have no experience in this area either.

The only hope is for experts in these areas to come forward and explain what is going on in ways the public can understand.
Otherwise, these ruthless manipulators like James Ray, are just going to keep doing it, and making millions.

Guys like Jame Ray deliberately pick "soft targets", people who have no training in these areas, like middle aged folks from the mid-west who don't know what happening to them.
Its like if James Ray were a blackbelt in Tae-Kwan-Do and put a civilian in the ring to combat.
Or like a trained military terrorist who attacks unarmed civilians.

LGAT persuaders like James Ray don't go up against other trained experts in this area, as they would not make a single sale. They target and pick people with no training, who are too trusting and have no idea they are having their minds reengineered and minds-crushed using these techniques.

That is one difference with James Ray, that he is literally willing to do anything to get what he wants. But he is not the only one, there are many many others doing the same things, but are less "reckless" than Ray, and have not gone as far as him in in certain ways.
But there are many of these LGAT seminar systems which are doing the exact same things, in terms of the financial and psychological exploitation and manipulation.

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James Arthur Ray - Diane Konopka, ritualistic board-breaking NLP
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 21, 2009 01:03AM

On that point, the "board breaking" incident with James Ray is instructive.
"A May 2005 event at Disney World, where a New Jersey woman shattered her hand after Ray allegedly bullied her into performing a ritualistic board-breaking exercise...
In the Disney World incident, a 2005 negligence lawsuit charged a "reckless" Ray pushed seminar attendee Diane Konopka to smash the board to "overcome . . . self-esteem issues." Repeatedly unsuccessful, the "humiliated" and "extremely exhausted" Konopka felt "she had no choice" but to do what Ray demanded, the suit says.
The guru settled in 2007 for an undisclosed sum." []

James Ray directly copied that board-breaking from Tony Robbins seminars, who has been doing it for decades, and Robbins "modeled" (copied) that supposedly using NLP methods from the NLP guys years ago.

Search Google for:

nlp modeling board break

The metaphor is they can teach you how to break a board in 5 minutes using NLP modeling (copying) techniques, which would normally take a blackbelt years of practice.
Its all in the NLP books, its so well-known as to be gag-inducing.

Of course, its bullshit.
Its easy to break a board with the palm of your hand, if you know how to do it. Some can even attest to doing it themselves on the first try with the people who invented it.
You just punch through with the ball of the hand, with the right kind of board.

But this is where James Ray goes off the rails.
It normal NLP board-breaking, if you flub it, you stop.

But he picked a woman, he did NOT train her how to do it properly, obviously, intentionally. He deliberately set her up.
He then used the board-breaking thing, as a way to establish coercive influence on her, and use her as an example for the group.
So James Ray modified the board-breaking exercise into "content" about dominance and control. He reframed the metaphor.
He turned one metaphor, into another metapor.

The board-breaking metaphor is supposed to be a lesson in NLP rapid learning, and doing something you think is "impossible".
James Ray modified it into a lesson in self-blame, group shaming, humiliation, self-damaging behaviors, and coercive control.
Same thing as what was going on in Sedona.
He pushes people into self-damaging behaviors using his influence techniques, and then blames them for it, for his own profit and self-interests.

By the way, James Arthur Ray claims NLP training as well. Going to have to look into that too. He probably just took a few courses along the way.

Stever Robbins [] who is also trained and is a trainer in NLP has made a few comments about James Ray, of course delberately ignoring the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

The guys who do this stuff for a living, never talk about it unless they are charging money in their own seminar to teach it to others.
A real bunch of creeps. Don't trust 'em.

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James Arthur Ray, Diane Konopka "in 2007 for an undisclosed sum."
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 21, 2009 06:40AM

No he certainly isn't slowing down. He's not going to stop unless he is forced to.

Most people don't realize that all LGAT seminars create psychological injuries in people on a regular basis, which is why they have their injury waivers, as posted in this thread.
And when people get hurt, and come to the LGAT seminar company with a complaint, they just ignore them.
If people are really upset, they just refer them to their legal dept, which has millions in the war chest. They just try to tie the "little guy" up with complicated legal stuff, and most people back down as they don't have the resources.
Most people just blame themselves and walk away.

But for those who are hurt, and who will not give up, the seminar company will fight them for a long as possible, and then eventually make a payout, with a contract which forbids them from ever talking about what happened.
That stuff happens all the time with these LGAT companies.

To the LGAT seminar company, to them its just the cost of doing business, and its all a tax-write off.

for example, according to the story above, they say Diane Konopka was injured in 2005. They made a payout in 2007. "The guru settled in 2007 for an undisclosed sum."

That's how it works.
First deny everything, fight the injured off for as long as possible, and lastly make the smallest possible payment in exchange for silence to keep the bad news out of the papers.

And he isn't slowing down either.

"Ray reportedly refused to speak to YCSO detectives about the incident and left the state.

He has continued to host seminars mainly in Southern California and still offers reservations for his next Spiritual Warrior retreat scheduled in Sedona from Sept. 18 to 23, 2010.

The Web site for Ray’s Spiritual Warrior program reads, “There is no sacrifice — only greater and more magnificent results, wealth, adventure and fulfillment. You owe it to the rest of your life to get to Spiritual Warrior as quickly as you can. The investment is only $9,695 per person.”


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James Ray, "I couldn't believe the brainwashing that was taking place"
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 21, 2009 07:02AM

Some interesting comments on the article below.

Notice that the James Ray seminar system copies many others. He has a $20,000 seminar package, with multiple events. Several big LGAT companies do that, as its a higher ticket item, with no refunds, and they have several seminars over a year or so to really brainwash the hell out of you and bilk you of more money at multiple locations.

So its a Win/Win for the Guru, and a lose/lose for you. You quit, they keep your money.

They have all sorts of complex tactic to get you to SIGN THAT CONTRACT, that is a study unto itself. And if you don't pay, they will sue you so fast you won't believe it.
But they usually just sign you on to pay them monthly with a high interest rate, that way they keep their hooks into you for years to come.
There are many levels to these LGAT seminar companies like James Ray International.


Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat

Melonie says:
I attended this event Sept-07 and left before the Vision Quest. I couldn't believe the brainwashing that was taking place and I wanted no part of it. If you didn't shave your head, it meant you were not giving up your attachments? WHAT? Do you know how ridiculous these women looked when they went back to the real world of family, friends and work! The final straw was when I learned that we had to sleep in the desert for 36 hours with no food and water, if this was told to me in advance I could have saved myself a lot of money. There was no way I would go without water for 36 hrs! I left, and never attended another event, even though I bought the $20,000 package and still had 2 events to attend, of which he offers NO REFUNDS. I knew James was a fraud and a complete ego-maniac at that time and have warned many others over the last 2 years.
My sincerest condolences to the families of the three deceased people.
October 19, 1:13 AM

Ex JRI Warrior says:
just for the record... i am one of the people that saw James for who he was and got out before I could be brainwashed any futher... My friend Liz was not so lucky... It is so scary to know that even after this tragic incident and other incidents in the past, people are still standing by James and sticking up for him and signing up for his events and forking out money they don't have!
October 18, 6:32 PM

ACE says:
“Hurt by James Ray”, the Horton Plaza Mall exercise is most likely the one where JR dresses everyone up in ripped up and tattered clothes with dirt and gunk smeared on their faces and in there hair to pose as homeless people on the streets of SD for a couple of hours. People are asked to play full on as if they were homeless; meaning some asked for food and money while other did not. ...
October 20, 1:53 PM

Former employee says:
A third person has passed away from this tragedy. When are the authorities going to act??
October 18, 10:18 AM

Mourning. says:
Facebook Page for JAR: Blog Commenter:
Danielle Hahn-Koprowski
I was at the Spiritual Warrior (SW) event in 2008 and I know exactly how this tragedy occurred
Since I had participated in more than 25 sweat lodge ceremonies prior to attending SW I had a different perspective than many who were there. I have never been to a lodge where anyone got sick except at SW. Last year, at least 20 people were sick and at least 1 person was dragged out unconscious at the end.
At a normal lodge no one is ever encouraged to stay, especially if they feel unwell in any way. James did not conduct the ceremony in the way that it was intended....
October 18, 10:07 AM

Corinne says:
I was a member of Seaside Church in Encinitas, CA where James Ray's Parents both attend regularly. James Ray brought his "building wealth" seminar to us for a nominal fee, and when I went up to talk to him about my hesitation to pay $750 (after I'd already spent close to 10k on Judith Kravitz's Transformational Breathwork, as well as on Byron Katie's The Work, I was about "GURU'd" "Motivational Speakered" OUT! When I said I couldn't afford it now, he immediately dismissed me & moved his eyes from me and on to the next person he could convice. ...
October 17, 8:46 PM

Disturbed says:
I was at CAW July 24-26 and was never made aware that any of the participants were missing much less dead despite the fact a "buddy" system was in place. I found out due to this recent tragedy that there was in fact a tragedy at my event too. ...
October 17, 3:53 PM

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Re: James Ray, "I couldn't believe the brainwashing that was taking place"
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 21, 2009 07:41AM

There is some interesting yet naive analysis at this link. What they don't realize is that James Ray doesn't want a Dr. on call for the seminar, its engineered to be life threatening, to create a deeper emotional bond between him and his senior followers.
Its a life-death engineered situation to create a lifelong emotional group bonding experience in the face of near-death.

And he did choose that location as its cheap as dirt. Doesn't even have to rent a hotel ballroom, just pure profit.

Is James Arthur Ray’s self-help empire just a personal money machine?

A commenter at a previous post here claimed to have unfortunate first-hand knowledge of James Arthur Ray’s ’spiritual’ and business practices. Donna writes:

As a one-time participant in James Ray’s “warrior” games, I experienced firsthand being put into a dangerous situation in order to “get out of my comfort zone”. I seemed the only person there, out of about 175, who saw this event for what it was, and Mr. Ray for the charlatan that he is. His good looks and charismatic personality made me think of what the early days of Jim Jones (of Jonestown in Guyana) must have been like. I’d paid $6000.00 for two seminars (I am now embarrassed to admit) and left this first one, “Creating Absolute Wealth” (for Mr. Ray, a clear success) when the absolute nakedness of the self-styled “emperor” became clear to me, and apparently, me alone. Even though I’d been verbally assured, before paying for the two seminars, that Mr. Ray would “stand behind his product” in the highly unlikely event that one would request a refund (I was told it had never happened – too bad I didn’t check the BBB first…but it was “spiritual”, right?). I was unable to get my money back either for the seminar I left OR for the other I’d prepaid that was still 6 months in the future, having decided that I did not wish to take a Quantum (or any other kind of) Leap with Mr. Ray. I am sorry, but not surprised, that Mr. Ray’s utter ego-maniacal self-interest has now cost lives. I hope he has to pay for this, at least, and I hope it is with his time, and not his money.

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James Ray, Liz Neuman admitted as a "Jane Doe," Colleen Conaway
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: October 21, 2009 12:47PM

James Ray Inc did essentially the same thing to Liz Neuman, as they did to Colleen Conaway.
As Liz Neuman had no ID on her, the article says she was admitted into the hospital as a "Jane Doe" and "no one was available to make an identification of the patient upon admission to the hospital."
It took her family 24 hrs to locate her.

Since Colleen Conaway also had no ID on her, she would also have been a "Jane Doe".

Which specific staffer had the ID's of these James Ray seminar participants?
Why were the ID's not immediately taken to the hospital to they could identify her from a drivers license, and contact her family?

What is wrong with these staffers at the James Ray company?
They are stripping people of their "ID" on purpose, not only for psychological Transference reasons.
But do they really believe that holding back the ID of people who get hurt or die will reduce their liability?

These James Ray staffers are EXTREMELY dangerous, never give them your ID under ANY circumstances. They will literally ditch you when you are hurt, or dead.
They will just leave you there.

Never give your ID to anyone for that matter. Always keep your own ID on your person, especially at some crazy seminar.
That organization is really rotten to the core, the facts of this investigation are going to be something else.

Family Not Notified of Victim's Fate By Sweat Lodge Organizers
Tuesday, 20 October 2009

Flagstaff, AZ - On the afternoon of October 17, 49-year-old Liz Neuman passed away at the Flagstaff Medical Center. Ms. Neuman was hospitalized after participating in a sweat lodge event at the Angel Valley Retreat Center on October 8th hosted by James Arthur Ray.

A relative, speaking on behalf of the victim's family, said, "Our family is very disappointed by the way the situation with Liz was handled by James Ray International. Neither Mr. Ray nor anyone from his organization contacted our family after the tragic incidents of October 8. We only learned of the occurrence through family in Arizona and through media coverage."

"Liz spent several years of her life as a faithful follower of the teachings of James Arthur Ray. She put her faith and her trust in this man. To not hear anything from him or his company for over a week is inexcusable, We expected more in return from this relationship than silence and insensitivity ."

The family was eventually able to locate Ms. Neuman over 24 hours after she was admitted to Flagstaff Medical Center. She had been admitted as a "Jane Doe," no one was available to make an identification of the patient upon admission to the hospital. She had suffered multiple organ damage and eventually fell into a coma before passing away from her injuries . The family had not heard from James Ray International until Sunday the 18th, after Ms. Neuman had already passed away- ten days after the sweat lodge event in Sedona had taken place.

"It is our sincere hope that the other attendees of this 'Spiritual Warrior' event, will visit their family doctors and be sure that they too have not incurred some sort of injury from this experience," the family member said. "Liz was a healthy woman and two other people have died as a result of this. These people should see their doctors immediately."

Louis Diesel, a lawyer for Ms. Neuman's family, stated "it was clear that appropriate measures were not taken to prevent her death and insure the safety of the others involved."


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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Eddystone ()
Date: October 21, 2009 01:51PM

A couple named Lauren and Curt something (I didn't catch their last name) were interviewed on local TV tonight about their impressions of James Ray and his seminars. Lauren described Ray as "very charismatic," an "impressive motivational speaker" and so on. Ray clearly made an impression on these two, because after their first seminar they attended two more, each of them increasingly challenging--and of course, increasingly expensive! But Curt went on to describe a disturbing incident that happened to him in a later seminar.

He was challenged to place the point of an arrow against his throat. It was a real arrow with a wooden shaft and a sharp metal point. He was told to place the tip of the arrow against the most vulnerable spot on his throat, a spot where there's no bone to protect any organs, the trachea is behind it, and behind that, the spine. If the arrow were to penetrate the throat deeply enough at this spot it would undoubtedly cause severe injury, with a risk of paralysis and even death. He was then encouraged to "lean against" the arrow and put his weight against it. He spoke of the dangerous things people are encouraged to do in these seminars "while in an altered state of consciousness."

And an accident occurred. Luckily the arrow didn't penetrate Curt's throat, but he must have been leaning on it hard, because the wooden shaft bent and snapped. The sharp, splintered end sprang up into his face and tore into his eyelid. He spoke of the cut needing several stitches, and more important, if it had been an eighth of an inch closer it would have gone straight into his eye. Indeed, the damage looked so bad, with the blood pouring over it no doubt, that onlookers at first were not sure if he still had an eye or not!

He pointed out how deadly dangerous this was, and faulted the group for getting their clients to do such reckless things without any kind of proper safety precautions or trained medical personnel in attendance in case of emergencies.

Curt's remark on the way Ray ran away after this recent tragedy was that this behavior was "not in keeping with the values and principles Ray preaches." But no-one here will be surprised at that.

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